The Austin-Evert rivalry

kiki · May 12, 2014

DMan said:
Goolagong def. Austin 6-4,0-6,6-3. A devastating and horrible loss for a player so "dominant". And higher ranked.

FACT:

The 1979-1981 H2H between Austin and Evert was this:

1979 Avon Ch. AUSTIN
1979 Clairol Crown: EVERT
1979 Italian: AUSTIN
1979 Mahwah: EVERT
1979 US Open: AUSTIN
1979 Stuttgart: AUSTIN

1979 year end rank: Evert #2, Austin #3

1980 Colgate Championships (Round Robin): AUSTIN
1980 Colgate Championships (Semis): AUSTIN
1980 Avon Cincinnati: AUSTIN
1980 US Open: EVERT

1980 year end rank: Evert #1, Austin #2

1981 Canadian Open: AUSTIN
1981 Toyota Championships (Round Robin): EVERT
1981 Toyota Championships (Semis): AUSTIN

1981 year end rank: Evert #1, Austin #2

Overall H2H from 1979-1981
AUSTIN 9-4

OK, so you are listing some of Chris Evert's losses from 1979-1981. What they have to do with her rivalry with Austin, who knows?!?!

But I give you this: take Chris Evert's record for 1979-1981 and compare it with any other player's record for 3 consecutive years (of my choosing). And I GUARANTEE Chris comes out on top against EVERYONE! Hands down!

You said that match was one sided but you know it was closer than the 7/6 6/1 final Evert lost
That was horrible
For Evert fans of course, not for Evonne' s:;-)
In your desperate attempt to enhance your idol not only you belittle Austin,who as you posted had a clear HtH advantage over Chris, but also Goolagong
She had beaten Hana,Tracy and Evert to win Wimbledon...and her easiest match, by far, was the one against Chrissie

DMan · May 13, 2014

kiki said:
No shame in losing to an on fire Kathy Jordan.No need to belittle her comparing her to the Maleevas or Garrison.Much less the others you mentioned.

In 79-81 Evert could take the lead for some slots of time, but she could also look like the fourth best.maybe the rankings said other wise, but tennis is not just rankings.

How many unforced errors will it take for you to realize you've LOST this match?! Badly!

Chris Evert spent more time at #1 from 1979-1981 than Austin and Navratilova COMBINED! And if Chris was not even looking like the #1 or #2 player at any time from 1979-1981, and perhaps just fourth best, I'd like to know who else was ahead of her at the time!! If you want to insinuate it was Evonne, well everyone will give Evonne the temporary #1 ranking for the two weeks during Wimbledon in 1980. With Chris Evert in second. Misses Austin and Navratilova would be demoted to #3 and #4 for that time period.

So, who else was playing better than Chrissie those years? Who? Who?????

Tennis isn't just rankings. It's about winning matches. And knowing just a wee bit more than you do!

DMan · May 13, 2014

Ramon said:
You're right, this is isn't about Seles vs Graf, but the reason Seles got stabbed in the first place was because she was dominating Graf at the time, and everyone knew it (including the stabber, unfortunately).

Back to Austin, I do think Graf was clearly better than Austin (and Evert too for that matter). She would have thrashed both of them regardless of age. Part of the reason was she was more athletic, but it was also testament to the women's game changing.

How does one "dominate" an opponent you have a LOSING H2H with? I mean 2 of her 4 victories occurred in the spring of 1990. The other two were close three-set matches. That's "dominating?

Of course it's not. It's merely the desperate and pathetic things Selestials *still* hold on to these days. Many belong in the loony bin along with the wacko man from Germany who is mentioned in connection with her.

DMan · May 13, 2014

kiki said:
You said that match was one sided but you know it was closer than the 7/6 6/1 final Evert lost
That was horrible
For Evert fans of course, not for Evonne' s:;-)
In your desperate attempt to enhance your idol not only you belittle Austin,who as you posted had a clear HtH advantage over Chris, but also Goolagong
She had beaten Hana,Tracy and Evert to win Wimbledon...and her easiest match, by far, was the one against Chrissie

Wait, so the Austin-Evert rivalry discussion is now boiled down to.....(wait for it folks.....it's not even a match that involves Chris and Tracy.....it's the 1980 Wimbledon final, won by Evonne? And that was a "horrible" loss for Chris? Ok, I guess.

Reminds me of the wonderful quip by JoAnne Russell at the 1982 Wimbledon. After upsetting #9 Sylvia Hanika, Russell was asked to respond to Sylvia's comment that JoAnne had no chance against Martina. Jo said, "I've got a better chance than she does!!" :twisted:

Yeah, Jo did lose to Martina, but the point is, Jo beat Sylvia. Case closed. Now if Chris was asked what kind of chance she would have against Tracy in the 1980 Wimbledon final, Chris could have said, because it was true, "I've got a better chance than she does!" Because Tracy LOST in the semis to Evonne. While Chris was beating #1 and reigning champ Martina in the semis.

Now I get it. Perfect Logic from someone who has no knowledge or understanding of what actually happened!

But keep 'em coming. Can't wait to see how failed your logic gets. Or when I can use to some powerful overheads to smash away the next illogical argument!

BTURNER · May 13, 2014

CEvertFan said:
But Seles was stabbed because she had taken away the #1 ranking from Steffi. That wack-job even said so.

The wack job is the focus, not his rational or his perceptions. This is like saying a woman gets ***** because the rapist said she looked at him funny across the bar. NO She got ***** because a man decided to **** and fate provided means and opportunity . I am not especially interested in what Parsche purports or how he spins his fixation - especially before this sick man has been properly diagnosed and his mental state qualified by clinicians . This guy, in a deranged but undiagnosed state, fixated on a public figure, if I want to know why he fixated and acted on his fantasies, I'll ask them but not him.

Either the reason was him or the reason was a sick brain, but it sure was NOT because of a computer ranking change because he claims so. He's not entitled or qualified to offer an opinion I'll respect.

kiki · May 13, 2014

DMan said:
Wait, so the Austin-Evert rivalry discussion is now boiled down to.....(wait for it folks.....it's not even a match that involves Chris and Tracy.....it's the 1980 Wimbledon final, won by Evonne? And that was a "horrible" loss for Chris? Ok, I guess.

Reminds me of the wonderful quip by JoAnne Russell at the 1982 Wimbledon. After upsetting #9 Sylvia Hanika, Russell was asked to respond to Sylvia's comment that JoAnne had no chance against Martina. Jo said, "I've got a better chance than she does!!" :twisted: Yeah, Jo did lose to Martina, but the point is, Jo beat Sylvia. Case closed. Now if Chris was asked what kind of chance she would have against Tracy in the 1980 Wimbledon final, Chris could have said, because it was true, "I've got a better chance than she does!" Because Tracy LOST in the semis to Evonne. While Chris was beating #1 and reigning champ Martina in the semis.

Now I get it. Perfect Logic from someone who has no knowledge or understanding of what actually happened!

But keep 'em coming. Can't wait to see how failed your logic gets. Or when I can use to some powerful overheads to smash away the next illogical argument!

Your game is more suited for moonballing baselining because when you come in you leave amazing angles for any expert passing shot

Evert, no matter what an idiotic computer says was never a real number one from 79 to 81
She feared more than was feared by Austin and Navratilova.Do you know indoors was huge then?
Now come and tell me her major indoors record
She was whipped off court by Tracy more potent and flat grounders and by Martina mighty S&V

BTURNER · May 13, 2014

kiki said:
Your game is more suited for moonballing baselining because when you come in you leave amazing angles for any expert passing shot
Evert, no matter what an idiotic computer says was never a real number one from 79 to 81
She feared more than was feared by Austin and Navratilova.Do you know indoors was huge then?
Now come and tell me her major indoors record
She was whipped off court by Tracy more potent and flat grounders and by Martina mighty S&V

come on, Kiki. You are falling prey to a combination of your impressions, memories, and an emotional response to a ******* match

I see where you got your original idea for this in the Austin scare, but whatever Evert was doing, she was not losing ground by the concrete measures we have always traditionally used in looking at her career. Those indoor events were not points she had to successfully defend often, so there was not much for Martina or Austin to threaten there.

The ranking was stable and high because each of those 'threat's were less consistent in maintaining their rise in the ranks than she was in staying where she'd been. Evert's consistency in majors, taken as a whole did not suffer and she continued to win her share of tournaments. T I think your theory breaks down because you are not looking at their early losses in majors and tier one equivalents or those times when they did not show to defend. You are just looking at what they might have done to her, but not at their failures outside those h to h matches that impacted on the comparative success. That is just not good enough in tennis because the picture isn't complete enough. For example Martina only got into two major final (1980 Aussie and '81 Open) after 1979 Wimbledon for the next two 1/2 years? In virtually every other major she played, she did a little worse, than her seeding demanded, and only did better in the '81 Open as a finalist but seeded 4. The rest of the time it went the other way. She slumped slightly and a couple of victories over Evert just does not do the job! Goolagong only reached that one major final, and Austin only reached those two Open finals she won in the same period of time. Now ask yourself how many additional times those two each reached the semis of majors during those years.

kiki · May 13, 2014

I understand your reasoning and you offer a good additional angle to review that short but exciting period,Bturner
But your picture lacks some context
For instance, indoor was paramount and we plainly and simply cannot judge that time without pondering the Supreme court factor and it's two majors that, likewise men were bigger then that any other event except USO,W and maybe FO.There Chris took back seat to the other two who also scored the most easy wins vs her on the carpet.
Some emotion is also required for right powndering purposals

BTURNER · May 14, 2014

kiki said:
I understand your reasoning and you offer a good additional angle to review that short but exciting period,Bturner
But your picture lacks some context
For instance, indoor was paramount and we plainly and simply cannot judge that time without pondering the Supreme court factor and it's two majors that, likewise men were bigger then that any other event except USO,W and maybe FO.There Chris took back seat to the other two who also scored the most easy wins vs her on the carpet.
Some emotion is also required for right powndering purposals

No one who views ranking as an element, can play favorites on surface or conditions. All those Avon events were on carpet, and were counted win or lose in the rankings and Evert played a ton of them from 1979-81 Each year Evert won a few indoor tournaments and but lost a lot more. There is nothing newsworthy about the 1979-81 pattern from her usual that I see. Certainly Evert was not 1-2 in the world indoors on carpet, I'll concede that fast enough!

It was always her worst surface by far vs Martina all along with plenty of bad scores. Carpet did for Martina, what clay did for Evert. As for Austin, I think the surer the footing and bounce, the better Austin played, which means the predictability of hard and carpet gave her greater confidence and more power on her heavier strokes. Evert adjusted better to the odd (Clay) or low bounce (grass) than Austin because she had a more compact swing and more natural slice and underspin options for last minute control of a surprise, and of course she handled a slide better. I think Evert slid around the living room, before she crawled!

kiki · May 14, 2014

I agree on her sliding, that I will give it to you
Austin instead was a classical califòrnian HC
With that indoor rècord, specially vs Austin and Navy I am afraid Chris cannot claim n1 in those three yrs
BTW There still is animosity between both as seen in WTA party of 2013
Tracy speaking about Chris hurrying upstairs to have sex with an unknown guy and Evert publically asking Austin why she was not her idol
bitc(h)y and Dirty play specially from the Californian

BTURNER · May 14, 2014

kiki said:
I agree on her sliding, that I will give it to you
Austin instead was a classical califòrnian HC
With that indoor rècord, specially vs Austin and Navy I am afraid Chris cannot claim n1 in those three yrs
BTW There still is animosity between both as seen in WTA party of 2013
Tracy speaking about Chris hurrying upstairs to have sex with an unknown guy and Evert publically asking Austin why she was not her idol
bitc(h)y and Dirty play specially from the Californian

Evert does not need to claim number 1 or number 10. A ranking system sanctioned by the WTA provided determinate rankings. It states her ranking hovered between #1 and 2 from 1975-1986 and more specifically in 1979,1980, and 1981. That system uses data provided by tournaments with results from all WTA sanctioned events including every single clay, grass, hard court and carpet venue whether it was indoor or outdoor. It uses a formula to weigh results based on criteria selected by the WTA.
USA Chris Evert Jan 14, 1979 Jan 27, 1979 2 140
USA Martina Navratilova Jan 28, 1979 Feb 24, 1979 4 30
USA Chris Evert Feb 25, 1979 Apr 15, 1979 7 147
USA Martina Navratilova Apr 16, 1979 Jun 24, 1979 10 40
USA Chris Evert Jun 25, 1979 Sep 9, 1979 11 158
USA Martina Navratilova Sep 10, 1979 Apr 6, 1980 31 71
USA Tracy Austin Apr 7, 1980 Apr 20, 1980 2 2
USA Martina Navratilova Apr 21, 1980 Jul 6, 1980 11 82
USA Tracy Austin Jul 7, 1980 Nov 17, 1980 19 21
USA Chris Evert Nov 18, 1980 May 2, 1982 76 234
USA Martina Navratilova May 3, 1982 May 16, 1982 2 84

You personally don't get to demote her further for indoor losses, than the ranking system already did. I don't get to promote her for victories outdoors than the ranking system already did

Why on earth would you suggest that Austin said anything about Evert hurrying up to have sex with an unknown guy? She just said that Evert seemed in a bad mood and was in a hurry to leave the court after her loss to Goolagong and did not provide an autograph. Austin was too young to even be on the tour at the time and never would discuss or hint at anyone's sex life then or at a WTA photo shoot event honoring past champions. It is a perverse and twisted fabrication and it sexualized one professional woman player and made another the perpetrator. What is wrong with you?

kiki · May 14, 2014

Geez Evert should hire you as her PR advisor
You are even more computer like than herself:-(
As for the rest of my post, well I probably heard the video under poor condition so I might have taken a long sentence in parts and put it in the wrong context
Plus as you know since being her biggest fan here, Evert had a certain reputation then
So I apologize for a wrong statement and I would do it personally to both of them
Now, did I listen correctly about Evert asking Austin if she had been her idol?

BTURNER · May 14, 2014

kiki said:
Geez Evert should hire you as her PR advisor
You are even more computer like than herself:-(
As for the rest of my post, well I probably heard the video under poor condition so I might have taken a long sentence in parts and put it in the wrong context

There was no 'sentence' or parts of one that came out of anyone's mouth having to do with Evert or anyone rushing to have sex with a man. There was no context anywhere on that lengthy video, where anyone's sexual habits or interests were brought up by any player, commentator or interviewee. You sexualized this discussion out of whole cloth for no discernable or logical reason, but to bring up the topic of an athletes sex life to suggest she was a sl*t and blamed it on another athlete to paint her as a 'bi*ch. they weren't being catty enough for you Just own it and be embarrassed.

Plus as you know since being her biggest fan here, Evert had a certain reputation then
So I apologize for a wrong statement and I would do it personally to both of them
Now, did I listen correctly about Evert asking Austin if she had been her idol?

Sort of. And you probably heard Austin reply that it was Goolagong. And you heard Evert mention that her game sure did not look like she idolized Goolagong's in her youth. It seems they have a very different sense of what each means by the term. Evert is asking who she patterned her game after as a youth. Austin was thinking personality and character idolization. It caused confusion. That is when the story came out about the autograph.

kiki · May 14, 2014

Well have you ever seen a small, human like fault in Evert game, behaviour, morale or whatsoever?
I think we are different type of fans
I always pointed out Hana and Evonne faults
You are desperate to justify Evert whose past is not ribetted with gold.And I will leave it here because IMO this discussion shouldn't go further

kiki · May 14, 2014

BTW Evonne and Hana never pretended perfection and us their fans were loyal no matter what flaw and shortcoming, maybe we loved them more because of that
I guess being an Evertian is a huge burden
She demanded perfection from herself and fans feel the pressure to be on pair with this demand

CEvertFan · May 14, 2014

kiki said:
Geez Evert should hire you as her PR advisor
You are even more computer like than herself:-(
As for the rest of my post, well I probably heard the video under poor condition so I might have taken a long sentence in parts and put it in the wrong context
Plus as you know since being her biggest fan here, Evert had a certain reputation then
So I apologize for a wrong statement and I would do it personally to both of them
Now, did I listen correctly about Evert asking Austin if she had been her idol?

BTurner is a fan of Evert's no doubt, but I think I'm an even bigger fan.

She is my #1 all time favorite player.

I also stand by my earlier statement when I said that you seem to REALLY not like Evert at all. It comes across in all your posts and that's fine, you are entitled to your opinion but just don't try and say that you do like her when all the evidence says otherwise...

Honesty is always the best policy.

CEvertFan · May 14, 2014

BTURNER said:
Sort of. And you probably heard Austin reply that it was Goolagong. And you heard Evert mention that her game sure did not look like she idolized Goolagong's in her youth. It seems they have a very different sense of what each means by the term. Evert is asking who she patterned her game after as a youth. Austin was thinking personality and character idolization. It caused confusion. That is when the story came out about the autograph.

I watched the clip and when Evert asked Austin "I thought I was your idol Tracy, not Evonne because you certainly didn't play like her" Austin then said I had 2 idols and left it at that.

BTURNER · May 14, 2014

kiki said:
Well have you ever seen a small, human like fault in Evert game, behaviour, morale or whatsoever?
I think we are different type of fans
I always pointed out Hana and Evonne faults
You are desperate to justify Evert whose past is not ribetted with gold.And I will leave it here because IMO this discussion shouldn't go further

Oh yeah. I think I've been clear on Evert's weaknesses as a player, but they changed as time went on from the 70's to the 80's. If you want more depth, I'll supply.

I don't have much to complain about with respect to her on court behavior or interviews etc as extensions of professional conduct, but that just reflects her habitual expression of professional discipline. Don't do a lot of it with others either. If anything, I tend to defend all players character in general, from hypersensitive criticisms of petty matters. Posters here sometimes drive a drama about any supposed snub, or moment of temper in normally decent young people in a high adrenaline high visibility environment well past any reliable conclusion.

I will not discuss any players private or personal behavior or relationship choices. I don't discuss Mandlikova's, Navratilova's, Graf's, Kings, Seles, Goolagong's, Serena's Hingis, Mauresmos, Austin, even Capriati's troubles. I don't snark and snipe or critique their appearance, manners, or private lives. Its not my place to get personal on a forum. This isn't about Evert. Its about my insistence that we respect privacy of all players. They owe us a lot on a tennis court, and something in how they conduct themselves in an interview or on the public stage. They owe us absolutely nothing in their homes, bedrooms etc including explanations or justifications. We do not OWN them off the clock. Besides, I don't particularly like gossiping about them so its an easy policy to follow consistently.

BTURNER · May 14, 2014

CEvertFan said:
I watched the clip and when Evert asked Austin "I thought I was your idol Tracy, not Evonne because you certainly didn't play like her" Austin then said I had 2 idols and left it at that.

I recall this was Austins segue into the story of how Evonne won a match she was watching as a kid, between evert and Goolagong and she stopped to sign, when Evert wanted to rush to the locker room? Its somewhere in that two hour tape, probably in the pre-interview. Hell, who doesn't automatically like the sweet gentle fun soul of Evonne better than just about anyone's?

kiki · May 14, 2014

CEvertFan said:
BTurner is a fan of Evert's no doubt, but I think I'm an even bigger fan.

She is my #1 all time favorite player.

I also stand by my earlier statement when I said that you seem to REALLY not like Evert at all. It comes across in all your posts and that's fine, you are entitled to your opinion but just don't try and say that you do like her when all the evidence says otherwise...

Honesty is always the best policy.

Look I like posting on this little space we have for women´s tennis.I don´t think I trolled here and no need to, while I may disagree with you and Bturner, there is respect and politeness, even if my natural is to add some spice here and there.Both of you are really good posters to interact with ( and yes, I can´t decide whether it is you or Bturner the biggest Chrissie loyal)and so were Suwanee ( where the hell is going now) and PDJ ( he is another Evert fan but he knows his stuff).Yes, we have had the ocasional trollers but I try not to get engaged with them.

That said, it is not that I dislike Evert.I really was never a fan of her but neither was I a Borg or Gonzales one and have the utmost respect for them.Evert, the same.Great champion and very inteligent player.Tremendous courage and savoir faire on court, not many players have overcome what she did and the records are there to prove it.In a recent blog I read on her, she said that " 70´s were the better of times" and, maybe, the biggest part of herself was how much a 70´s player and woman she was.

But I find there is a point of unnaturality in many of her praisals and no criticism at all.Or it is my view.those like me that, as I just posted up that find more engagement with Hana and Evonne, enjoyed them not because they were and PRETENDED to be perfect, but just and exacty because of the opposite.

Not even Evert was perfect, no matter how much she tried and I just don´t feel it is doing justice to her to make her a more perfect player - and person- than she really was.it also happened with Borg, remember that?

That said, Chris Evert is a completely necessary player to explain the great times I had those days.becasue...we Evonne´s fans would never have a better day than when she beat Evert ( and Court) and we Hana fans never had bigger time than when she defeated Martina ( and Chris)

CEvertFan · May 15, 2014

kiki said:
Look I like posting on this little space we have for women´s tennis.I don´t think I trolled here and no need to, while I may disagree with you and Bturner, there is respect and politeness, even if my natural is to add some spice here and there.Both of you are really good posters to interact with ( and yes, I can´t decide whether it is you or Bturner the biggest Chrissie loyal)and so were Suwanee ( where the hell is going now) and PDJ ( he is another Evert fan but he knows his stuff).Yes, we have had the ocasional trollers but I try not to get engaged with them.

That said, it is not that I dislike Evert.I really was never a fan of her but neither was I a Borg or Gonzales one and have the utmost respect for them.Evert, the same.Great champion and very inteligent player.Tremendous courage and savoir faire on court, not many players have overcome what she did and the records are there to prove it.In a recent blog I read on her, she said that " 70´s were the better of times" and, maybe, the biggest part of herself was how much a 70´s player and woman she was.

But I find there is a point of unnaturality in many of her praisals and no criticism at all.Or it is my view.those like me that, as I just posted up that find more engagement with Hana and Evonne, enjoyed them not because they were and PRETENDED to be perfect, but just and exacty because of the opposite.

Not even Evert was perfect, no matter how much she tried and I just don´t feel it is doing justice to her to make her a more perfect player - and person- than she really was.it also happened with Borg, remember that?

That said, Chris Evert is a completely necessary player to explain the great times I had those days.becasue...we Evonne´s fans would never have a better day than when she beat Evert ( and Court) and we Hana fans never had bigger time than when she defeated Martina ( and Chris)

I don't think anyone is perfect, not even Evert. I think she always had that goody goody Chris America image because of the gracious way she handled herself on court - there were no temper tantrums, outbursts or yelling like there were with some of the other players (men and women both) so in the public's eyes she could do no wrong but she's human like everyone else and she had her strengths and weaknesses in life as well on the court.

I always thought she was a hell of a player and definitely had that killer instinct on court and her will was stronger than most anyone else I have ever seen but she could also have improved some aspects of her game and she didn't (Her serve comes to mind more than anything else).

kiki · May 17, 2014

CEvertFan said:
I don't think anyone is perfect, not even Evert. I think she always had that goody goody Chris America image because of the gracious way she handled herself on court - there were no temper tantrums, outbursts or yelling like there were with some of the other players (men and women both) so in the public's eyes she could do no wrong but she's human like everyone else and she had her strengths and weaknesses in life as well on the court.

I always thought she was a hell of a player and definitely had that killer instinct on court and her will was stronger than most anyone else I have ever seen but she could also have improved some aspects of her game and she didn't (Her serve comes to mind more than anything else).

Is there any player among her big rivals (Court,King,Navratilova,Graf,Goolagong,Wade,Mandlikova or Austin) who you would have supported in case Evert had not existed?
Or may be none?

CEvertFan · May 17, 2014

kiki said:
Is there any player among her big rivals (Court,King,Navratilova,Graf,Goolagong,Wade,Mandlikova or Austin) who you would have supported in case Evert had not existed?
Or may be none?

I'm also a big fan of Navratilova, Goolagong, Austin, King and Graf so if Evert never existed I would still have had favorites to root for.

I've said in past threads that Austin is very underrated and that had she not retired early with injuries the 80s would have been very different for her as well as Navratilova and Evert. It most likely would have been a 3 way running battle for majors instead of just Evert/Navratilova for most of the 80s and then Graf would come along and things would have gotten even more interesting.

CEvertFan · May 17, 2014

BTURNER said:
I recall this was Austins segue into the story of how Evonne won a match she was watching as a kid, between evert and Goolagong and she stopped to sign, when Evert wanted to rush to the locker room? Its somewhere in that two hour tape, probably in the pre-interview. Hell, who doesn't automatically like the sweet gentle fun soul of Evonne better than just about anyone's?

I just loved that part when Evonne was asked if she had met all the other champions in the room and she said she had not yet met some of them so she turns to the other women and said "Hi, I'm Evonne, nice to meet you". So cheeky and fun. It got a big laugh out of me for sure.

kiki · May 17, 2014

CEvertFan said:
I'm also a big fan of Navratilova, Goolagong, Austin, King and Graf so if Evert never existed I would still have had favorites to root for.

I've said in past threads that Austin is very underrated and that had she not retired early with injuries the 80s would have been very different for her as well as Navratilova and Evert. It most likely would have been a 3 way running battle for majors instead of just Evert/Navratilova for most of the 80s and then Graf would come along and things would have gotten even more interesting.

...and Hana.

PDJ · May 20, 2014

CEvertFan said:
I watched the clip and when Evert asked Austin "I thought I was your idol Tracy, not Evonne because you certainly didn't play like her" Austin then said I had 2 idols and left it at that.

As, I think is obvious if any one has read my previous posts, I'm a huge Evert fan- for me, she will always be no.1. That said, I thought her jibe to Austin re "idol" came across as mean-spirited at worst, and a poor attempt at humour at best. I actually thought it very gracious of Austin to acknowledge Cawley in a room full of champions.

kiki · May 22, 2014

Evonne couldn't help being liked by almost any peer or true fan

PDJ · May 26, 2014

PDJ said:
As, I think is obvious if any one has read my previous posts, I'm a huge Evert fan- for me, she will always be no.1. That said, I thought her jibe to Austin re "idol" came across as mean-spirited at worst, and a poor attempt at humour at best. I actually thought it very gracious of Austin to acknowledge Cawley in a room full of champions.

I've watched the WTA clip again and Austin does indeed say Evert rushed upstairs with a guy. So actually Evert's response re idol is not as harsh as I thought. Both should, however, have known better. Still, made for lively viewing!

suwanee4712 · May 27, 2014

If Chris and Tracy haven't yet come to terms with each other in the 21st century, then I am greatly disappointed in both of them. It makes no sense to me. Why is it so important to Chris to hear Tracy admit that she was her idol. And why is it so hard for Tracy to state the obvious?

When you meet certain people who you've admired from a distance, some will disappoint you. Tracy gave that impression of meeting Chris in her book. Is that fair to Chris (or anyone else in that situation)? Probably not. But this is where Chris' image was a double edged sword. She benefitted from that image hugely. But when you occassionally fall short of how others perceive you, there's a price to pay.

I have always maintained my belief that Evert was a psychological predator. It's not normal for a grown woman to look at a 15 year old girl and feel threatened. But it's also very sad that a 15 year old girl is so competitve that she feels it would be self defeating to pay the woman she wants to beat just a little public respect.

But that's the world of competitve sports at this level. Nothing is normal. You are both benefactor and victim.

It's 2014, ladies. Put your swords down once and for all.

Brian11785 · May 27, 2014

BTURNER said:
Why on earth would you suggest that Austin said anything about Evert hurrying up to have sex with an unknown guy? She just said that Evert seemed in a bad mood and was in a hurry to leave the court after her loss to Goolagong and did not provide an autograph. Austin was too young to even be on the tour at the time and never would discuss or hint at anyone's sex life then or at a WTA photo shoot event honoring past champions. It is a perverse and twisted fabrication and it sexualized one professional woman player and made another the perpetrator. What is wrong with you?

Why on earth? Perhaps because Austin actually made the comment/joke.

Is red text the new all caps?

kiki · May 27, 2014

Brian11785 said:
Why on earth? Perhaps because Austin actually made the comment/joke.

Is red text the new all caps?

yes, you and pdj have clearly stated that.PDJ is a big Evertian yet he has been honest on that and repported exactly what he heard.

C´mon, we all know sweet Chrissie´s reputation in the 70´s.No need, as I said before, to make an idol of perfection¡¡¡

BTURNER · May 27, 2014

Brian11785 said:
Why on earth? Perhaps because Austin actually made the comment/joke.

Is red text the new all caps?

Tracy made a comment, not an innuendo. Austin was telling a story. She said she saw Evert rush off with a guy after a match instead of giving her an autograph. It could have been a friend, one of Evert's brothers,a coach, or an agent for all she or any of us knew. She was a kid at the time, of course, and Austin was not implying anything remotely sexual about what she saw. That was Kiki's invention. She was a disappointed fan that felt she got the brush off. Those two will never get along and pettiness and pride occasionally take the front stage. But that is a long cry from the kind of license Kikii was playing, by inventing more than was there, in Austin being Bi**hy, for hinting at Evert 's reputation for a sexual past.

Here is the direct quote from Kiki's post to which I took exception, " Tracy speaking about Chris hurrying upstairs to have sex with an unknown guy and Evert publically asking Austin why she was not her idol
bitc(h)y and Dirty play specially from the Californian "

That was just not what Austin did and there is no way in hell that she would ever discuss or hint at Evert's sexual exploits in an interview for an occasion like this, and Kiki damn well knew better. While it sure was an uncomfortable exchange between those two, and it was sure not pleasant, Austin on her worst day has far more class than to do what Kiki accused her of doing.

I apologize for the use of red. Sometimes I change the color of the font to distinguish my reply from the post itself when I am going back and forth, rather than piddle with the quote function. I am an older gentleman who is not as smooth with features as I should be.

BTURNER · May 27, 2014

kiki said:
yes, you and pdj have clearly stated that.PDJ is a big Evertian yet he has been honest on that and repported exactly what he heard.

C´mon, we all know sweet Chrissie´s reputation in the 70´s.No need, as I said before, to make an idol of perfection¡¡¡

Yes PDJ was honest but YOU were not. This isn't about Evert at all. Its about you sexualizing the story and blaming Tracy Austin for doing it.

If you want to throw out innuendo that Evert was rushing from tournaments to have sex with unknown men, take credit for it yourself, so that you aren't casting Austin in the role as 'bit**', when you wrote her lines for her. .

It did not happen. She did not say anything about Evert rushing having sex with anybody. She said Evert rushed past her, to leave the court with a man after her loss to Goolagong because that is what she remembered about the scene as a girl wanting an autograph. Losers in tennis matches often want to get the hell out of 'Dodge' after they lose. Losers in tennis matches aren't in a good mood. Sometimes they may leave with friends, family or coaching staff who, regardless of gender, were their invited guests at the match.

CEvertFan · May 28, 2014

suwanee4712 said:
If Chris and Tracy haven't yet come to terms with each other in the 21st century, then I am greatly disappointed in both of them. It makes no sense to me. Why is it so important to Chris to hear Tracy admit that she was her idol. And why is it so hard for Tracy to state the obvious?

When you meet certain people who you've admired from a distance, some will disappoint you. Tracy gave that impression of meeting Chris in her book. Is that fair to Chris (or anyone else in that situation)? Probably not. But this is where Chris' image was a double edged sword. She benefitted from that image hugely. But when you occassionally fall short of how others perceive you, there's a price to pay.

I have always maintained my belief that Evert was a psychological predator. It's not normal for a grown woman to look at a 15 year old girl and feel threatened. But it's also very sad that a 15 year old girl is so competitve that she feels it would be self defeating to pay the woman she wants to beat just a little public respect.

But that's the world of competitve sports at this level. Nothing is normal. You are both benefactor and victim.

It's 2014, ladies. Put your swords down once and for all.

I totally agree with your comment about Evert, she was most definitely a predator and was ruthless toward anyone she saw as a threat. The comment brings me back to Martina's thoughts about Evert as written in her autobiography. There's a whole chapter devoted to Evert in Martina's book and it's a fascinating read.

As for Austin and Evert still gently sniping at each other all these years later, I just look at it this way - that some people just never like one another and aren't ever going to. I wouldn't say that the animosity is deep anymore but it's still there a bit all these years later.

CEvertFan · May 28, 2014

BTURNER said:
Yes PDJ was honest but YOU were not. This isn't about Evert at all. Its about you sexualizing the story and blaming Tracy Austin for doing it.

If you want to throw out innuendo that Evert was rushing from tournaments to have sex with unknown men, take credit for it yourself, so that you aren't casting Austin in the role as 'bit**', when you wrote her lines for her. .

It did not happen. She did not say anything about Evert rushing having sex with anybody. She said Evert rushed past her, to leave the court with a man after her loss to Goolagong because that is what she remembered about the scene as a girl wanting an autograph. Losers in tennis matches often want to get the hell out of 'Dodge' after they lose. Losers in tennis matches aren't in a good mood. Sometimes they may leave with friends, family or coaching staff who, regardless of gender, were their invited guests at the match.

Austin did imply it though, even the audience's reaction to Austin's comment confirmed that they took her comment in that way. No, she didn't come out and say it but even I took it that way unfortunately. Heck even Evert took it that way as you can infer from her suddenly whispering with Navratilova who was sitting next to her right after Tracy said that which is why Austin asked what are you saying Chrissie?

PDJ · May 28, 2014

Austin did say something along the lines of "maybe I shouldn't say this" and then promptly did.
I think, and I don't think we need to attack each other, that the title of this thread remains apt today.
That said, both ladies have grown from child superstars to articulate intelligent women and it could so easily have gone a different way. Kudos to both.
An aside: is there anybody who doesn't like Evonne? I sincerely doubt it. I've never read a negative comment about her character from her contemporaries and that is quite something in such a competitive rarified world.

PDJ · May 28, 2014

Not completely relevant to the thread, but I thought some of you might enjoy these:
Evonne Goolagong Quotes

"Mum's words always stay in my mind. She used to tell me to 'have a lovely day' whenever I left the house to go play. When I came home she always asked: 'Did you have a lovely day?' It was never: 'Did you win or lose?'"
Evonne Goolagong Cawley the serene Australian 1970s champion, in a 2005 interview with Inside Sport magazine.

"My greatest high was to hit a ball well, to try to do it perfectly, to try different things with my shots whether they came off or not. I can think back to matches I lost where I played one or two points perfectly, and that gave me a thrill. The most exciting match I ever played was the 1974 U.S. Open final against Billie Jean, and I lost it."
- Evonne, the 1970s champion from Australia.

"No, I'm thrilled about being a very good mother."
- Evonne when asked in 1978 if she were thrilled that her comeback had gone so well. From the 1979 book, Famous Women Tennis Players.>

kiki · May 28, 2014

BTURNER said:
Yes PDJ was honest but YOU were not. This isn't about Evert at all. Its about you sexualizing the story and blaming Tracy Austin for doing it.

If you want to throw out innuendo that Evert was rushing from tournaments to have sex with unknown men, take credit for it yourself, so that you aren't casting Austin in the role as 'bit**', when you wrote her lines for her. .

It did not happen. She did not say anything about Evert rushing having sex with anybody. She said Evert rushed past her, to leave the court with a man after her loss to Goolagong because that is what she remembered about the scene as a girl wanting an autograph. Losers in tennis matches often want to get the hell out of 'Dodge' after they lose. Losers in tennis matches aren't in a good mood. Sometimes they may leave with friends, family or coaching staff who, regardless of gender, were their invited guests at the match.

Look, we shouldn´t take that too seriously.If you mean to be an older gentlemen, myself I am also old enough to, maybe, have a bad hearing problem and , on the other hand, you just didn´t state that I personally mentioned I´d apologize to any of both if I misunderstood.

This is just a comment.I may add that Austin is 50 yrs old or so, and she is in full posession of her words.So, if there was no sex involved, she´d have probably said " she rushed out with her brother, her friend, her coach " or whatever.Of course, maybe it was Austin´s imagination and also the fact that she wanted to play a sort of nasty game to Evert ( which I think is a bit stupid in a public act)

I apologize if I didn´t hear clearly what a 50 yrs old Austin said.If she wanted to be nasty to Evert, that I don´t know and it is their business , not certainly ours.But if she used the words I understood ( and then again I maybe wrong but other gentlemen here have proven me right), it is clear that the sexual impliance is there.

And, as I said before, I have no business with Evert´s sex life or any other private aspect of her life.In fact, I just think none of us has any business on that.And I also think we shouldn´t make a person more perfect than she or he really is.

kiki · May 28, 2014

PDJ said:
Not completely relevant to the thread, but I thought some of you might enjoy these:
Evonne Goolagong Quotes

"Mum's words always stay in my mind. She used to tell me to 'have a lovely day' whenever I left the house to go play. When I came home she always asked: 'Did you have a lovely day?' It was never: 'Did you win or lose?'"
Evonne Goolagong Cawley the serene Australian 1970s champion, in a 2005 interview with Inside Sport magazine.

"My greatest high was to hit a ball well, to try to do it perfectly, to try different things with my shots whether they came off or not. I can think back to matches I lost where I played one or two points perfectly, and that gave me a thrill. The most exciting match I ever played was the 1974 U.S. Open final against Billie Jean, and I lost it."
- Evonne, the 1970s champion from Australia.

"No, I'm thrilled about being a very good mother."
- Evonne when asked in 1978 if she were thrilled that her comeback had gone so well. From the 1979 book, Famous Women Tennis Players.>

I´ll make it short.Evonne winning at 1980 ALMOST OVERSHADOWED the men´s final that took place the next day and is considered by the people alive the greatest final ever played at Wimbledon.

To this day, only Hana´s amazing USO win in 1985 can compare.Of course, IMHO.

BTURNER · May 28, 2014

kiki said:
Look, we shouldn´t take that too seriously.If you mean to be an older gentlemen, myself I am also old enough to, maybe, have a bad hearing problem and , on the other hand, you just didn´t state that I personally mentioned I´d apologize to any of both if I misunderstood.

This is just a comment.I may add that Austin is 50 yrs old or so, and she is in full posession of her words.So, if there was no sex involved, she´d have probably said " she rushed out with her brother, her friend, her coach " or whatever.Of course, maybe it was Austin´s imagination and also the fact that she wanted to play a sort of nasty game to Evert ( which I think is a bit stupid in a public act)

I apologize if I didn´t hear clearly what a 50 yrs old Austin said.If she wanted to be nasty to Evert, that I don´t know and it is their business , not certainly ours.But if she used the words I understood ( and then again I maybe wrong but other gentlemen here have proven me right), it is clear that the sexual impliance is there.

And, as I said before, I have no business with Evert´s sex life or any other private aspect of her life.In fact, I just think none of us has any business on that.And I also think we shouldn´t make a person more perfect than she or he really is.

I doubt she knew who the man was. The man was unknown to her.

kiki · May 28, 2014

Tracy was not only tough for the two ladies that were dominating the women´s tour right before she came in (Evert and Navratilova)

If I recall properly, until 81 she was dominating Jaeger and Mandlikova, but the tide turned the other way after that year.And she beat Shriver who, except at Wimbledon, was totally unable to solve the Austin problem.

suwanee4712 · May 28, 2014

CEvertFan said:
I totally agree with your comment about Evert, she was most definitely a predator and was ruthless toward anyone she saw as a threat. The comment brings me back to Martina's thoughts about Evert as written in her autobiography. There's a whole chapter devoted to Evert in Martina's book and it's a fascinating read.

As for Austin and Evert still gently sniping at each other all these years later, I just look at it this way - that some people just never like one another and aren't ever going to. I wouldn't say that the animosity is deep anymore but it's still there a bit all these years later.

I hope they are fine and we are all just nitpicking. But if BJK and Margaret Court can have dinner with each other every year at the Australian, then Ice Maiden and Ms. Pigtails can do the same.

Your rivals drive you to become better. Chris showed Tracy how important consistency, dedication, and a killer instinct are. And Tracy made Chris take a step back and then return to the tour 1980-1982 playing some of her best tennis.

I do have a lot of sympathy for Tracy though. The book "Rivals," really showed how emotional she is still today about what could have been. Still, she's lucky to have had her time and she made the most of her life.

kiki · May 29, 2014

I think we should compare Tracy to Jaeger Since both are from same generation.
Similar yet diverse

PDJ · May 30, 2014

I think you can compare them for all the obvious reasons. The main differences being Jaeger could volley, but the biggest difference was that Austin had the mind of a champion, jaeger, for all her fleeting success, did not.

Con_T · May 30, 2014

suwanee4712 said:
If Chris and Tracy haven't yet come to terms with each other in the 21st century, then I am greatly disappointed in both of them. It makes no sense to me. Why is it so important to Chris to hear Tracy admit that she was her idol. And why is it so hard for Tracy to state the obvious?

When you meet certain people who you've admired from a distance, some will disappoint you. Tracy gave that impression of meeting Chris in her book. Is that fair to Chris (or anyone else in that situation)? Probably not. But this is where Chris' image was a double edged sword. She benefitted from that image hugely. But when you occassionally fall short of how others perceive you, there's a price to pay.

I have always maintained my belief that Evert was a psychological predator. It's not normal for a grown woman to look at a 15 year old girl and feel threatened. But it's also very sad that a 15 year old girl is so competitve that she feels it would be self defeating to pay the woman she wants to beat just a little public respect.

But that's the world of competitve sports at this level. Nothing is normal. You are both benefactor and victim.

It's 2014, ladies. Put your swords down once and for all.

Such a good post!

Evert just couldn't let it go when Austin stated Evonne was her idol. She HAD to comment (aided, IMO, by a little ***** stirring by Navratilova - look at Martina whispering to Evert just before Chris comments). Evert is STILL competing with Austin, lol. I can imagine Evert's epitaph: I WAS Austin's idol! (joke, everyone!).

Evert stated in her book she didn't especially mind when she lost of Evonne; conversely, every loss to Austin would have just killed her.

kiki · May 31, 2014

PDJ said:
I think you can compare them for all the obvious reasons. The main differences being Jaeger could volley, but the biggest difference was that Austin had the mind of a champion, jaeger, for all her fleeting success, did not.

...and Austin hit flat strokes while Andrea used a lot more of top spin

Both moved well and both had weak serves as well.

Austin was around 16 when she became a top tenner.Jaeger, around 15.

kiki · May 31, 2014

Con_T said:
Such a good post!

Evert just couldn't let it go when Austin stated Evonne was her idol. She HAD to comment (aided, IMO, by a little ***** stirring by Navratilova - look at Martina whispering to Evert just before Chris comments). Evert is STILL competing with Austin, lol. I can imagine Evert's epitaph: I WAS Austin's idol! (joke, everyone!).

Evert stated in her book she didn't especially mind when she lost of Evonne; conversely, every loss to Austin would have just killed her.

Evert once said " I hate losing more than I like winning"

To me she simply hated to lose one point, one game , one set and, of course, one match.Jimmy Evert? Don´t think so

kiki · May 31, 2014

Navratilova was good friends with Evert and King, later on with Shriver.With Hana it was ambiguous.But she couldn´t stand Jaeger ( whom Evert geniunely seemed to like IMO) and, of course, Tracy.Navratilova possibly felt Evert´s loses to Austin as if they were their own.

Neither Evert neither Martina got close to Evonne, but Evert didn´t dislike her, I think she most likely liked her.I don´t know much about the Goolagong/Navratilova relationship...does anybody have any idea on the subject?

DMan · Jun 3, 2014

CEvertFan said:
I don't think anyone is perfect, not even Evert. I think she always had that goody goody Chris America image because of the gracious way she handled herself on court - there were no temper tantrums, outbursts or yelling like there were with some of the other players (men and women both) so in the public's eyes she could do no wrong but she's human like everyone else and she had her strengths and weaknesses in life as well on the court.

I always thought she was a hell of a player and definitely had that killer instinct on court and her will was stronger than most anyone else I have ever seen but she could also have improved some aspects of her game and she didn't (Her serve comes to mind more than anything else).

No one cultivated her persona better than Chris Evert. And Chris did it without really trying, and even if she did, she got away with it, and still came off like she wasn't really trying.....to present herself as......Chris America.....America's Favorite Sweetheart! Etc. Etc. Etc. Even as an adult, she first had the fairytale romance with #1 Jimmy Connors. When that flamed out, everyone forgave her, and ganged up on big bad Jimmy for "womanizing" and dumping her. She then dated Jack Ford, Burt Reynolds, Vitas.....what wasn't to love about her. She then falls in love with Flossie, #1 British blond boy John Lloyd. Seems like a fairytale (again). She has the storybook wedding. And starts to live happily ever after......until just a few years later her marriage crumbles. And um, Chris is the one having the affair (Shhhhh!!!!!! don't tell anyone) And hardly anyone did. And she reconciles with John, gets back to #1, and all is right with the world. Until, rather suddenly, she's no longer Mrs. J.M. Lloyd, but on the verge of divorce #1. Well, it's the '80s you know. Divorce is commonplace. She's in her early 30s. And she's, well, Chris America. Even if she's got an ex. Then she meets hunky skier Andy Mill. And isn't it cute, they look good together. And she decides to tie the knot, again. Then retires. Has a kid. And another. And another. Seems happy in retirement. Until she has an affair. With her husband's good buddy. Greg Norman (Ouch!). And poof! Husband #2 is gone. Traded in for an older, creepier version. And pretty soon Chris' third time is the charm bubble is rudely burst, and she is 3/4 of the way to her Grand Sham of exes. (An ex-French hubby will complete the career marriage Grand Sham!) :twisted:

Through it all, we still love Chris. And think of her as the nearly virginal, fun loving, goody two shoes Chris. Yeah, but if we only knew. Which we don't. So who cares.

Chris knows she got a pass from the media on a lot of things. Things that Martina wouldn't have gotten a pass for. Nor would many of her contemporaries, or todays stars. Fair or not, that's how things work sometimes.

PDJ · Jun 3, 2014

I get the impression that Evert was, and is, genuinely liked by her peers, public and media. Obviously, it wasn't all plain sailing - the ice maiden tag by the British Press stung until she became Mrs Lloyd and therefore one of our own. Also, and ironically, the string of losses against Navratilova brought many more people in to her corner. Her longevity as a champion brought more fans. Whilst very American, her class and femininity brought her international adoration. She's extremely popular even now in France and the UK. Class will tell. When Connors book was published and the part about Evert/child, the international press, nearly as one, rushed to defend her. Yup, image intact.

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