Trying to Use Shoulder turn Video

tlm · Feb 19, 2015

Here are a few forehands were I am trying to use more shoulder turn. Let me know what you think. The 3rd and 4th shots are slow motion of the first 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMOK4rww6xs

Cheetah · Feb 19, 2015

There's no separation.

tlm · Feb 19, 2015

Cheetah said:
There's no separation.

What do you mean?

AHJS · Feb 19, 2015

tlm said:
What do you mean?

Your hand doesn't come off the throat of the racket like it it supposed to. The initial turn is good, but take your hand off the throat once you complete your unit turn. Also, keep the arm parallel to the baseline longer and don't pull away so fast. Good progress tho!

dimkin · Feb 19, 2015

just be careful ... the motion is so jerky it's an injury waiting to happen ...
You are leading with your right shoulder, try instead leading with ur left elbow rotating left, pulling your left shoulder and forcing the turn, as well a at the same time pushing with your right hip ...

tlm · Feb 19, 2015

AHJS said:
Your hand doesn't come off the throat of the racket like it it supposed to. The initial turn is good, but take your hand off the throat once you complete your unit turn. Also, keep the arm parallel to the baseline longer and don't pull away so fast. Good progress tho!

Okay I see what you mean. I have a hard time keeping my left arm parallel for some reason.

Cheetah · Feb 19, 2015

i mean coil. shoulder - hip separation.

... so you still end up arming it. on that last one where you swing hard you are just arming it harder. it's too much effort.

if you want to hit harder then hip harder.

Cheetah · Feb 19, 2015

Yea it looks a little better because you have more shoulder turn but I don't think it would take too much to turn that into a coil and have it actually do something.

Also, look at your feet on the first swing. You are dancing / tippy toeing all the way up to and through the swing. You had plenty of time to load there. I think it's because you are so concerned with swinging your arm that you don't care or pay attention to your feet.
Gotta make that a priority already.

snvplayer · Feb 19, 2015

tlm said:
Okay I see what you mean. I have a hard time keeping my left arm parallel for some reason.

Yeah...Think of using your left hand to guide the racket back, rather than holding onto it. Keep in mind that once your left hand pushes / guides the racket back, your right arm shouldn't take the racket further back.

Another description would be - seperate your hands as soon as you begin to turn.

Try to pull your left arm into your torso as you swing forward rather than dropping it and let it loose. Good exercise is to catch your racket with your left hand at the end of the follow through.

Something you can try is to practice two handed forehand like Max had suggested.

gregor.b · Feb 19, 2015

tlm said:
Here are a few forehands were I am trying to use more shoulder turn. Let me know what you think. The 3rd and 4th shots are slow motion of the first 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMOK4rww6xs

You are holding the racquet too long, causing your stroke to be too rushed. As soon as you see the forehand coming, start the unit turn and release the racquet with the arm parallel to the baseline. Then you start a slow smooth acceleration through the ball. And finish your follow through a little lower around the chest or shoulder (not the head). Too much low to high and not quite enough drive through the ball.

tlm · Feb 19, 2015

Cheetah said:
i mean coil. shoulder - hip separation.

... so you still end up arming it. on that last one where you swing hard you are just arming it harder. it's too much effort.

if you want to hit harder then hip harder.

Okay I see what you mean.

tlm · Feb 19, 2015

gregor.b said:
You are holding the racquet too long, causing your stroke to be too rushed. As soon as you see the forehand coming, start the unit turn and release the racquet with the arm parallel to the baseline. Then you start a slow smooth acceleration through the ball. And finish your follow through a little lower around the chest or shoulder (not the head). Too much low to high and not quite enough drive through the ball.

I do feel like my strokes are rushed a lot. Slow and smooth sounds like a good idea, I will have to work on that because it won't be easy.

gregor.b · Feb 19, 2015

tlm said:
I do feel like my strokes are rushed a lot. Slow and smooth sounds like a good idea, I will have to work on that because it won't be easy.

You can never set up too early with the racquet. You need to make sure you start your left arm rotation nice and early so you can accelerate smoothly without too much stress on the body.

tlm · Feb 19, 2015

All of these suggestions sound good. The problem I have is I go out there and work on my shots and I end up thinking to much and then can't swing on time. I have to figure out a way to get one thing straightened out at a time.

gregor.b · Feb 19, 2015

tlm said:
All of these suggestions sound good. The problem I have is I go out there and work on my shots and I end up thinking to much and then can't swing on time. I have to figure out a way to get one thing straightened out at a time.

Always use the 1 % theory. Only try and change 1 thing at a time, until you get used to it. Then add something else when it becomes second nature, and so on.

spacediver · Feb 20, 2015

tlm, I think you could greatly benefit from watching this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srlGa9QyG7E

heninfan99 · Feb 20, 2015

The Feel Tennis guy is now my fav. online coach. He uses no superfluous language --perhaps English not being his native language is a huge benefit.

spacediver said:
tlm, I think you could greatly benefit from watching this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srlGa9QyG7E

mntlblok · Feb 20, 2015

spacediver said:
tlm, I think you could greatly benefit from watching this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srlGa9QyG7E

He does look "smooth", doesn't he? Something that jumps out at me with this fellow's fine strokes is that his contact point seems to be at the perfect spot every time - meaning that he *knows* where that three dimensional point in space is long before the ball gets there. Most of us couldn't tell you where that ideal point is.

I'm thinking that if you figured out where that ideal point is, then, as has been mentioned, you could "load" that back foot at the right place and time and then transfer that load at the right time and place. Seems to me that you fall "back" on both those slo-mo shots.

I also wonder how much of this teacher's "smoothness" is related to the rhythm that he attains from his "loop". I wonder if you were to incorporate a small loop if that might not help some, too. Hate to bring up "wrist", but the loop seems to maybe bring that comfortably into play - maybe the opposite of "arming it"?

Maui19 · Feb 20, 2015

You let your left arm swing around way too early. A great thought is to reach out and try to catch the ball with your left hand. Watch how long Mardy Fish keeps his left hand in place before he hits a forehand.

geca · Feb 20, 2015

tlm your forehand looks really good. The only issue I see is you maybe gripping the racket too tight?

loosening up should allow you to whip faster.

heninfan99 · Feb 20, 2015

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tlm · Feb 20, 2015

spacediver said:
tlm, I think you could greatly benefit from watching this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srlGa9QyG7E

This guy has an interesting way to teach. It looks so easy when a player is as polished as this guy is.

tlm · Feb 20, 2015

Maui19 said:
You let your left arm swing around way too early. A great thought is to reach out and try to catch the ball with your left hand. Watch how long Mardy Fish keeps his left hand in place before he hits a forehand.

I was trying to keep the left arm out there longer but I guess not long enough. I have to try and use the left arm to start the swing instead of the right I have been told and that does make sense.

Shroud · Feb 20, 2015

spacediver said:
tlm, I think you could greatly benefit from watching this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srlGa9QyG7E

This is a good vid but does it apply to Tlm?

I mean that the swing in that vid is predicated on a loop to build racket momentum. Tlm doesnt loop much if at all from what I can tell.

Power Player · Feb 20, 2015

Ita real simple. You can't stop arming the ball and don't trust the technique of actually using your core to generate pace.

Weird example, but - Go grab a hula hoop next time you see one and try and spin it round your hips. That first motion is what the forehand should be more like. Notice how it utilizes both of your hands to initiate the power for the hoop to spin around your waist?

That is what you are not doing. You are just dropping the left hand down and not using it to open your hips and generate real power. As a result you have no kinetic chain and are still using your arm. The worst part is you are putting the work into the prep and then just letting it all go so you get no benefits.

tlm · Feb 20, 2015

Power Player said:
Ita real simple. You can't stop arming the ball and don't trust the technique of actually using your core to generate pace.

Weird example, but - Go grab a hula hoop next time you see one and try and spin it round your hips. That first motion is what the forehand should be more like. Notice how it utilizes both of your hands to initiate the power for the hoop to spin around your waist?

That is what you are not doing. You are just dropping the left hand down and not using it to open your hips and generate real power. As a result you have no kinetic chain and are still using your arm. The worst part is you are putting the work into the prep and then just letting it all go so you get no benefits.

I see what you mean, someone else mentioned that I need to use the left arm to start the turn instead of the right arm. Which after watching the video I see what they mean.

I guess it is back to the drawing board. Tonight I will try and use the left arm instead of just dropping it. I was also told to not set up so closed but more in a neutral stance which makes it easier to get rotation.

I need to get these things corrected because I wonder about how much power I am not tapping into. I thought some of these forehands had some decent pace to them, so I wonder how hard I could hit the ball if I got things firing in order.

Power Player · Feb 20, 2015

Well if you try and hit hard you are going to go back to old habits. you need to just relax and not worry about power for a while.

JonC · Feb 20, 2015

I'd scrap the whole thing and start over with this - this is the best video on what the modern forehand really is. You're making the arm the primary driver and you'll never understand it if you keep doing that. All the talk on body position, let arm, etc., should come AFTER you get this basic concept figured out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwg9DB8S8a8

tlm · Feb 21, 2015

JonC said:
I'd scrap the whole thing and start over with this - this is the best video on what the modern forehand really is. You're making the arm the primary driver and you'll never understand it if you keep doing that. All the talk on body position, let arm, etc., should come AFTER you get this basic concept figured out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwg9DB8S8a8

I have watched this video before and tried to incorporate this technique. I can't seem to time it with my swing. I think maybe I need to try practicing with those foam balls the kids use. They slow everything down and give time to make adjustments to my swing.

I have found that I can shadow swing and make correct adjustments but once on the court even hitting slow paced shots it is much more difficult and I go back to my regular swing.

Fxanimator1 · Feb 21, 2015

tlm said:
I was trying to keep the left arm out there longer but I guess not long enough. I have to try and use the left arm to start the swing instead of the right I have been told and that does make sense.

Use your hips to start the swing. That will give you the separation of hips and shoulders that the other post was mentioning.
That video in post #28 is probably the best example of what you're missing in your stoke.

tlm · Feb 21, 2015

Fxanimator1 said:
Use your hips to start the swing. That will give you the separation of hips and shoulders that the other post was mentioning.
That video in post #28 is probably the best example of what you're missing in your stoke.

Okay I will try to use hips to start swing.

heninfan99 · Feb 21, 2015

Well he's smoothly hitting out in front. Though TLM gets his racket back early he swings late using his arm in a jerky motion. So timing the ball out in front, like the guy in the vid, you have momentum doing some of the work, no need to jerk every time. I don't know if you can tear a bicep this way but I would feel sore after a night of hitting like that.

TLM's forehand at 38 seconds is good though.

Shroud said:
This is a good vid but does it apply to Tlm?

I mean that the swing in that vid is predicated on a loop to build racket momentum. Tlm doesnt loop much if at all from what I can tell.

maleyoyo · Feb 21, 2015

tlm said:
Okay I will try to use hips to start swing.

I used to have the same issue about arming the ball just like the OP until I did this exercise for a while:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY19vA-oZHI

You have to teach your body to feel the difference between the loading and unloading phases using your hip, legs and core. The arm just goes along for a ride.

tlm · Feb 21, 2015

maleyoyo said:
I used to have the same issue about arming the ball just like the OP until I did this exercise for a while:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY19vA-oZHI

You have to teach your body to feel the difference between the loading and unloading phases using your hip, legs and core. The arm just goes along for a ride.

That looks like a good workout playing tennis with a medicine ball.

tlm · Feb 21, 2015

heninfan99 said:
Well he's smoothly hitting out in front. Though TLM gets his racket back early he swings late using his arm in a jerky motion. So timing the ball out in front, like the guy in the vid, you have momentum doing some of the work, no need to jerk every time. I don't know if you can tear a bicep this way but I would feel sore after a night of hitting like that.

TLM's forehand at 38 seconds is good though.

What's the difference with that forehand?

heninfan99 · Feb 21, 2015

You hit a flatter ball, you didn't hit that one as late as the others. Some of the others the ball is right beside you.

tlm said:
What's the difference with that forehand?

JonC · Feb 23, 2015

tlm said:
I have watched this video before and tried to incorporate this technique. I can't seem to time it with my swing. I think maybe I need to try practicing with those foam balls the kids use. They slow everything down and give time to make adjustments to my swing.

I have found that I can shadow swing and make correct adjustments but once on the court even hitting slow paced shots it is much more difficult and I go back to my regular swing.

Don't go back to your regular swing because you're just engraining that bad form - you need to hit a few thousand balls and you'll get it. Do you have access to a ball machine? Or just do drop hits. And yes, the foam balls would be a good idea at first.
Oh, and think about hitting soft and high for a while - not hard.

tlm · Feb 23, 2015

JonC said:
Don't go back to your regular swing because you're just engraining that bad form - you need to hit a few thousand balls and you'll get it. Do you have access to a ball machine? Or just do drop hits. And yes, the foam balls would be a good idea at first.
Oh, and think about hitting soft and high for a while - not hard.

Yes I have a ball machine and will start working with it in another month when it warms up. I am going to try and do some rallying with foam balls and see how that works.

Govnor · Feb 23, 2015

Power Player said:
Well if you try and hit hard you are going to go back to old habits. you need to just relax and not worry about power for a while.

This is it. Just relax everything, don't worry about placement or power, just focus on the swing itself and making it as relaxed and natural feeling as possible.

torpantennis · Feb 23, 2015

Govnor said:
This is it. Just relax everything, don't worry about placement or power, just focus on the swing itself and making it as relaxed and natural feeling as possible.

But what's the point of relaxing, if all the power is coming from arm and shoulder, instead of hips and legs?

tlm · Feb 23, 2015

Govnor said:
This is it. Just relax everything, don't worry about placement or power, just focus on the swing itself and making it as relaxed and natural feeling as possible.

I can do that but believe it or not my swing does feel natural for me. But I can let off the power and cut back on the violent brushing of the ball that I do. I have tried that before and my swing is more easy and relaxed.

The problem is it looks smoother and relaxed but does not put much on the ball. But maybe if I get used to it I can gradually increase the power and still swing more smoothly.

Trying to Use Shoulder turn Video

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