Please critique groundstrokes

carnaval09 said:

You are absolutely correct, I just wanted to get a feedback on the strokes and not his chances. I don't believe it is possible to make any conclusions based on a few short videos of point play/rallies or tennis ball machine regardless of the player. At the end of the day how can you make any assumptions without considering mental game and etc. But then again if someone brought up any kind of physical deficiencies it might be a different story but I don't think it is applicable in this case.
I agree that there are only so many spots on the podium but I think at the end of the day other factors will separate those kids: mental strength, talent and such.
I only asked about size factor because I wanted to get your opinion first hands as you mentioned your son is ranked Top 100 National and you mentioned he is somewhat smaller.
We do play a handfull of state tournaments( less than 10) a year ranging from state L4 through L1 within his range group and I think he was over powered once while playing a kid about 2 years older than him. During summer time, when soccer season is off, for about 2 and half months he goes to tennis camp and plays 12-15 hours a week where he has a chance to hit with very top juniors in the region and nationally ranked who are home schooled and my observation is different than yours. It is clear to me physical size does matter a lot as they just over power smaller kids. I also took time to watch a couple U12 Boys National tournaments in our area and watched a lot of matches just to see how those kids play real matches. I think you are looking at a larger population of players while I'm concentrating at the very top kids. Not to mention names but if you pull National ranking from say December of 2016 you'll see who is on the top, I assume you know those kids ( some of them 6+ ft tall already). The outcome of the tournament was those bigger size kids pretty much punished smaller kids. I hope you also know who won U12 Boys 2016 Orange Bowl and while he is under 6ft he is certainly physically strong kid.
Just my observation though.

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I will give my son's recent personal experience.
1. Lost U12 match at National tourney during Thanksgiving to #1 seed who is ranked just outside of top 10 nationally. Split sets and lost in tiebreaker for 3rd set. The opponent was bigger even though he's a year younger than my son. He didn't hit a bigger ball but what he did better was he hit his spots really well. Also any short ball was punished and he also was clutch in the tiebreaker. Whereas my son wasn't able to convert consistently his own short ball opportunities.
2. Won a couple and lost a couple of U12 matches at Winter Nationals around New Years. I wasn't able to be there but was told he wasn't overpowered in these matches. Seemed like it came down to who was able to be more consistent with their heavy ball and convert short balls when opportunities presented.
3. Lost U14 match in January National tourney. Opponent was big kid turning 15 soon. Definitely got overpowered in this one. Not surprising given 2 year difference during puberty stage.

I haven't seen any of the top 10 U12 boys in person so can't say how big they are. I did see part of the U12 Orange Bowl final online. Yes the boy that won is not small. If you watch the match though, you can see he hits a nice heavy ball but not overpowering. He put his rally ball where he couldn't be hurt off it, stayed consistent, played smart tennis, and converted a high percentage of his short ball opportunities. He didn't overpower the opponent who actually looked a bit undersized to me.

What do I make from this?
1. Does size matter? Absolutely, if two players have similar skills the bigger kid will probably win. But obviously no two kids have exactly the same skills with just varying size.
2. Are there more kids at the top that are big than kids that are small? Yes
3. Are there small undersized kids also at the top? Yes just not as many as the big kids
4. Can you still make it to the top levels if you are undersized? Absolutely

A lot of these juniors have very poor point development skills. Seems like their only game plan is big serve + 1, or big return + 1 ball then just hit it where the opponent is not. That's why you see juniors play and think what the heck?

Tennis isn't just a power game where he who hits the biggest ball wins. You just have hit a big enough ball consistently enough and put it in locations where your opponent can't hurt you or locations where your opponent is uncomfortable and be able to take advantage of your opportunities off that. Also there are many ways to absorb and neutralize power if the player is skilled enough.

Or maybe I'm just another deluded tennis parent justifying his kid's limitations? I honestly don't spend a lot of time thinking about this. He just tries to get better everyday.

3kids said:

I will give my son's recent personal experience.


I haven't seen any of the top 10 U12 boys in person so can't say how big they are. I did see part of the U12 Orange Bowl final online. Yes the boy that won is not small. If you watch the match though, you can see he hits a nice heavy ball but not overpowering. He put his rally ball where he couldn't be hurt off it, stayed consistent, played smart tennis, and converted a high percentage of his short ball opportunities. He didn't overpower the opponent who actually looked a bit undersized to me.

I didn't see the finals but would love to. Seems cant find the video so if you have a link please feel free to share.

Tennis isn't just a power game where he who hits the biggest ball wins. You just have hit a big enough ball consistently enough and put it in locations where your opponent can't hurt you or locations where your opponent is uncomfortable and be able to take advantage of your opportunities off that. Also there are many ways to absorb and neutralize power if the player is skilled enough.

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Agreed! Otherwise Safin, Delpotro, Kyrgios, Sock and etc would win a lot more.



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3kids said:

I haven't seen any of the top 10 U12 boys in person so can't say how big they are. I did see part of the U12 Orange Bowl final online. Yes the boy that won is not small. If you watch the match though, you can see he hits a nice heavy ball but not overpowering. He put his rally ball where he couldn't be hurt off it, stayed consistent, played smart tennis, and converted a high percentage of his short ball opportunities. He didn't overpower the opponent who actually looked a bit undersized.

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I didn't see the finals but would love to. Seems cant find the video so if you have a link please feel free to share.

carnaval09 said:

Hello there,
Would love to get a picky and honest feedback on the groundstrokes.
Are they ATP pro-style?
Thanks in advance.

Just for comparison old strokes from 2015

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Nice technique !!!!
Maybe swing a tad harder on BH

I cannot tell age but keep working and the road to 5.0 will passable

carnaval09 said:

Thanks! These were easy warm up shots so he is somewhat straight up and inactive. Nevertheless trying to get his center of gravity lower and ended up buying AP belt featured at IMG. Didn't have time to use it much yet as with competitive travel soccer team tennis doesn't get any love for time being. However, will be turning twelve in a few months and need to make a decision on which sports to concentrate on as 3-4 hours a week of tennis isn't going to cut it. Glad to see we are getting stronger and it just took his ability to the next level across the sports.
With soccer being so inexpensive compared to tennis I saved up quite a bit, lol. Going to use those funds towards trying out one of the tennis academies for a short period of time. Debating between Sanchez-casal or Evert. IMG just too expensive.
Thanks again.


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He has excellent foundations !!!!
Only 12 ???
Imagine when he is 16 how much he will be killing the ball

Does he play tourneys

Good game but no match for nadal lol

dgold44 said:

He has excellent foundations !!!!
Only 12 ???
Imagine when he is 16 how much he will be killing the ball

Does he play tourneys

Good game but no match for nadal lol

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We play a handfull of state level tournaments a year.

Nadal is very special!

carnaval09 said:

I didn't see the finals but would love to. Seems cant find the video so if you have a link please feel free to share.

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I have a link but it was given under the condition for my private viewing only. Sorry.

3kids said:

I have a link but it was given under the condition for my private viewing only. Sorry.

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Understand. No problem. I saw him played live a few times. I wanted to see his opponent's level, which after finding and watching a few points certainly has game.
They look to me to be about the same size though.

carnaval09 said:

Understand. No problem. I saw him played live a few times. I wanted to see his opponent's level, which after finding and watching a few points certainly has game.
They look to me to be about the same size though.

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I'm not very good at judging size unless I'm standing right next to them.

First time seeing him but the boy that won seems very well coached and disciplined, smart player. Saw him interviewed afterwards and very impressed with his maturity for 12 y.o.

3kids said:

I'm not very good at judging size unless I'm standing right next to them.

First time seeing him but the boy that won seems very well coached and disciplined, smart player. Saw him interviewed afterwards and very impressed with his maturity for 12 y.o.

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Yes, he is.
He was almost 13 though, not that is takes anything away from him. Well deserved victory!!!


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There have been a few comments about his serve when the racquet head drop happens too early - before knee extension. Could some one please give any recommendations on how to fix it. Thanks.


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carnaval09 said:

There have been a few comments about his serve when the racquet head drop happens too early - before knee extension. Could some one please give any recommendations on how to fix it. Thanks.


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I would show him slow motion video first so he sees what the exact issue is. Coaches Eye or Hudl apps work well.
He still won't be able to correct it but at least he'll understand.
It's very hard to consciously hold the racquet up at trophy and wait for the leg drive. The body just won't cooperate with the mind.
My kids respond well to image cues. So for this:
I asked them to hang the racquet arm and racquet loosely pointing down while the toss goes up first--see Djokovic pic below. We called this "stirring the paint" position. Like there's a Lowes 5 gallon paint can back there and the racquet head is loosely stirring the paint. (BTW, I can't take credit for this, saw it in some video)
The result of this is you get to trophy a bit later to hopefully correspond with the leg drive--see Djokovic progressive images below.
The bonus benefit is the player will pass through trophy without stopping with resultant smoother serve and additional increased RHS.

Anyways, it worked for my kids. Your mileage may vary.

You should also considering adding shoulder and hip rotation to his serve.

3kids said:

I would show him slow motion video first so he sees what the exact issue is. Coaches Eye or Hudl apps work well.

You should also considering adding shoulder and hip rotation to his serve.

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It may sound silly but In the past I purposely decided not to bring it up as I thought that extra rotation wasn't necessary for a young kid as the muscles are weak and the speed of serve isn't crucial at this age.
I also believe this is a very minor tweak that can be incorporated anytime.
I may be wrong though.
Thanks for your input.

carnaval09 said:

There have been a few comments about his serve when the racquet head drop happens too early - before knee extension. Could some one please give any recommendations on how to fix it. Thanks.


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In the video I posted, Macci recommends adding a hitch or delay in the swing path, before the racquet drops, so that the timing of the leg drive can catch up to the racquet drop e.g. Boris Becker. Another method is to separate the timing of the toss and swing where the toss occurs first with the racquet pointing down and the upswing of the racquet doesn't begin until the ball is released by the left hand e.g. Pete Sampras and Stefan Edberg.

Check out this video of Sampras' and Becker's serves in slow motion beginning at about 1:45:

Limpinhitter said:

In the video I posted, Macci recommends adding a hitch or delay in the swing path, before the racquet drops, so that the timing of the leg drive can catch up to the racquet drop e.g. Boris Becker. Another method is to separate the timing of the toss and swing where the toss occurs first with the racquet pointing down and the upswing of the racquet doesn't begin until the ball is released by the left hand e.g. Pete Sampras and Stefan Edberg.

Check out this video of Sampras' and Becker's serves in slow motion beginning at about 1:45:

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Thanks. I actually now see what we are talking about.


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Limpinhitter said:

In the video I posted, Macci recommends adding a hitch or delay in the swing path, before the racquet drops, so that the timing of the leg drive can catch up to the racquet drop e.g. Boris Becker. Another method is to separate the timing of the toss and swing where the toss occurs first with the racquet pointing down and the upswing of the racquet doesn't begin until the ball is released by the left hand e.g. Pete Sampras and Stefan Edberg.

Check out this video of Sampras' and Becker's serves in slow motion beginning at about 1:45:

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Seems like if the player already has the habit of racquet head "leaking" before leg drive i.e. early racquet drop, it's very hard to self correct even if they know what should be done. At least it was hard for my kids to self correct.

As soon as I found the "stirring the paint" imagery with the toss going up first and racquet arm delay, it worked wonders after a couple of practice sessions.

carnaval09 said:

Thanks. I actually now see what we are talking about.

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I was just answering your question. But, to be clear, I don't fully buy into Macci's premise that leg drive preceding the racquet drop is the key to big serving, or that leg drive contributes any significant amount of racquet head speed to the serve. Virtually every player on the WTA tour does what I call the "potty squat," and drive upward with their legs, and their serves are almost uniformly awful.

Rather, in my view, the key is to achieve a full "turn and tilt" of the upper body, at the peak of the toss, so that upper body rotation and the kinetic chain can be fully exploited in the upswing. It is analogous to a golf swing, except that the spine is tilted back instead of forward. Check out Sampras' upper body "turn and tilt" in the pic below. I hope you can appreciate the power potential in this posture. His back is almost fully turned to the target and his spine is titled to the point that his left shoulder is almost directly over his right shoulder. The turn is achieve, in part, by a tossing motion that is perpendicular to the target. The tilt is achieved by sliding his hip toward the left net post - very important!

From here, Sampras will rotate his upper body so that his right shoulder rotates up toward the ball, dragging the loose, relaxed arm and racquet behind. At contact, his shoulders have reversed their positions with the right shoulder being almost directly over his left shoulder. See the second pic below. Notice that, at contact, Sampras shoulders and arm are in almost a straight line, avoiding the chronic impingement of the shoulder joint suffered by many WTA players.

If your son can achieve these two postures, and his racquet drop is a bit more advanced than it is in Sampras' pic, then, in my view, that would serve to promote the effect of the kinetic chain because the upper body rotation will have a more direct, immediate, effect in promoting the racquet drop and an efficient kinetic chain. Dolgopolov probably has the biggest 6' or under serves in the game, and has a very advanced racquet drop. But, he fully exploits the kinetic chain with his huge upper body rotation. I think his advanced racquet drop enhances the effectiveness of the kinetic chain. See pics below.

After reading all of the feedback provided I talked to my son to see if he could hit a few forehands while concentrating on keeping the tip of the racquet above the wrist and give me his feedback as to how it feels.
He said it felt normal or how he likes to put it feels like a forehand
Nevertheless here is the short video and I'd love you guys to look it over to critique once again.
Thanks in advance.

carnaval09 said:

After reading all of the feedback provided I talked to my son to see if he could hit a few forehands while concentrating on keeping the tip of the racquet above the wrist and give me his feedback as to how it feels.
He said it felt normal or how he likes to put it feels like a forehand
Nevertheless here is the short video and I'd love you guys to look it over to critique once again.
Thanks in advance.

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One thing that he may want to do to increase pace is to be a little bit more fluid after his stroke by stepping in with his right foot more kind of like the stroke at 0:40, but more exaggerated, this will keep his body weight going forward and increase his rotation. His weight is already going in that direction but he isn't taking full advantage of it, it will make hitting a harder ball much easier

WisconsinPlayer said:

One thing that he may want to do to increase pace is to be a little bit more fluid after his stroke by stepping in with his right foot more kind of like the stroke at 0:40, but more exaggerated, this will keep his body weight going forward and increase his rotation. His weight is already going in that direction but he isn't taking full advantage of it, it will make hitting a harder ball much easier

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On 0:40 (and some other strokes) he does normal weight transfer on his front foot, and those particular strokes look really nice and fluid to me. On some strokes however he jumps through rotation (initiated by his rear foot plus body?) and this looks less fluid, though there's lot of body rotation present... @carnaval09 look at first two strokes of vid, on very first one Joseph does a little jump but still manages transfer on front foot and it looks powerful, fluid, compact, really nice, and then the very next one he initiates the rotation through jump solely by his rear foot but it doesn't look as compact and fluid though he still manages to rotate the body as he should...however consider this just a personal 'IMO' and let more knowledgeable have their say.

WisconsinPlayer said:

One thing that he may want to do to increase pace is to be a little bit more fluid after his stroke by stepping in with his right foot more kind of like the stroke at 0:40, but more exaggerated, this will keep his body weight going forward and increase his rotation. His weight is already going in that direction but he isn't taking full advantage of it, it will make hitting a harder ball much easier

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Thanks for the feedback! I did see it as well and weight transfer is something he would need to be aware of.

zalive said:

On 0:40 (and some other strokes) he does normal weight transfer on his front foot, and those particular strokes look really nice and fluid to me. On some strokes however he jumps through rotation (initiated by his rear foot plus body?) and this looks less fluid, though there's lot of body rotation present... @carnaval09 look at first two strokes of vid, on very first one Joseph does a little jump but still manages transfer on front foot and it looks powerful, fluid, compact, really nice, and then the very next one he initiates the rotation through jump solely by his rear foot but it doesn't look as compact and fluid though he still manages to rotate the body as he should...however consider this just a personal 'IMO' and let more knowledgeable have their say.

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Thanks! It is all great stuff and I wanted to show all aspects of his technique without sorting out what to show/cut off from the video. As I said before I'd love to hear positives and negatives so we could address it. Is there anything else that jumps at you? Do you see a ball arming or anything else in swing/racquet path/contact and etc.? TIA!

zalive said:

On 0:40 (and some other strokes) he does normal weight transfer on his front foot, and those particular strokes look really nice and fluid to me. On some strokes however he jumps through rotation (initiated by his rear foot plus body?) and this looks less fluid, though there's lot of body rotation present... @carnaval09 look at first two strokes of vid, on very first one Joseph does a little jump but still manages transfer on front foot and it looks powerful, fluid, compact, really nice, and then the very next one he initiates the rotation through jump solely by his rear foot but it doesn't look as compact and fluid though he still manages to rotate the body as he should...however consider this just a personal 'IMO' and let more knowledgeable have their say.

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I agree that it's not bad, and that he already has good rotation. However he could still improve on it now rather than later

WisconsinPlayer said:

I agree that it's not bad, and that he already has good rotation. However he could still improve on it now rather than later

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Roget that!

Here's my two cents. Take it for what it's worth.

1. Much better unit turn and shoulder rotation. I'd probably ask him to keep the left hand on the racquet throat even longer and be more physical with the left arm pointing to the side fence after releasing but I'm being picky.
2. Much smoother, he got rid of the early racquet drop and delay before forward swing.
3. He does a lot of jumping into the shot. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like his jump is a direct action for his unloading/stroke rather than the jump being a consequence of his unloading/stroke. By that I mean while high level players may look many times airborne hitting, most of the time this is the consequence of the tremendous ground force from outside/back foot unloading , hip and shoulder uncoiling rather than actually jumping into the shot. While this may seem to be an inconsequential difference, I think it pays off multiple ways:
a. head still at contact
b. less moving parts so more consistent swing path, hitting zone, etc
c. less energy expended which will pay off during 2-3 set matches
4. On follow through, racquet comes all the way around and behind his back almost to the right side again. This will rob him of recovery time during point play. You just don't have the luxury of this extra follow through at higher levels. This doesn't matter much during slow feedings but builds up bad muscle memory. Look at Youtube videos of Dominic Thiem practicing and "holding the finish" on his strokes. Racquet does not wrap around all the way back to the other side on follow through. You can then see videos of Thiem even holding the finish briefly during point play.

I would also work on his ready position--I know it's ball machine feeds but it's too lackadaisical and his hands are too low and close to the body. It needs to be further away from the body and around chest level. This way he can just turn the shoulders for the unit turn on either side and be in great position with racquet head up. This will pay off if he wants to play at higher levels and balls are coming faster and faster and he has less time to prepare.

The forehand could improve immensely if he learns better use of his off arm. Right now it's adding very little to his overall shot. Once he lets go of the throat of the racquet, his left arm needs to be more stable and stretched (roughly parallel to the baseline) in the prep position. Once he begins the forward pull of the racquet (lag and snap, etc.) by opening his left hip, his left arm will aid in opening up his left shoulder and adding rotational energy. At the end of his swing, his left arm hangs down off his left side. He needs to keep his arm up. Try modeling Djokovic for a while, he'll often catch his racquet in his left hand at shoulder height or just below.

3kids said:

Here's my two cents. Take it for what it's worth.

1. Much better unit turn and shoulder rotation. I'd probably ask him to keep the left hand on the racquet throat even longer and be more physical with the left arm pointing to the side fence after releasing but I'm being picky.
2. Much smoother, he got rid of the early racquet drop and delay before forward swing.
3. He does a lot of jumping into the shot. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like his jump is a direct action for his unloading/stroke rather than the jump being a consequence of his unloading/stroke. By that I mean while high level players may look many times airborne hitting, most of the time this is the consequence of the tremendous ground force from outside/back foot unloading , hip and shoulder uncoiling rather than actually jumping into the shot. While this may seem to be an inconsequential difference, I think it pays off multiple ways:
a. head still at contact
b. less moving parts so more consistent swing path, hitting zone, etc
c. less energy expended which will pay off during 2-3 set matches
4. On follow through, racquet comes all the way around and behind his back almost to the right side again. This will rob him of recovery time during point play. You just don't have the luxury of this extra follow through at higher levels. This doesn't matter much during slow feedings but builds up bad muscle memory. Look at Youtube videos of Dominic Thiem practicing and "holding the finish" on his strokes. Racquet does not wrap around all the way back to the other side on follow through. You can then see videos of Thiem even holding the finish briefly during point play.

I would also work on his ready position--I know it's ball machine feeds but it's too lackadaisical and his hands are too low and close to the body. It needs to be further away from the body and around chest level. This way he can just turn the shoulders for the unit turn on either side and be in great position with racquet head up. This will pay off if he wants to play at higher levels and balls are coming faster and faster and he has less time to prepare.

Click to expand...

Thanks for being picky. Good feedback.


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Postpre said:

The forehand could improve immensely if he learns better use of his off arm. Right now it's adding very little to his overall shot. Once he lets go of the throat of the racquet, his left arm needs to be more stable and stretched (roughly parallel to the baseline) in the prep position. Once he begins the forward pull of the racquet (lag and snap, etc.) by opening his left hip, his left arm will aid in opening up his left shoulder and adding rotational energy. At the end of his swing, his left arm hangs down off his left side. He needs to keep his arm up. Try modeling Djokovic for a while, he'll often catch his racquet in his left hand at shoulder height or just below.

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Thanks and agreed!


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His forehand contact point is literally shoulder level.

Can't quite tell from the video, but I think his racket tips towards the sky a hair at contact point on the backhand. (instead of parallel to the ground)

Hello again!
Decided to start where I picked off two years ago. Wow, time flies.
Not much changed for these last two years as we continued to practice two times a week taking it easy up until now when he said he wants to take up tennis seriously now as he seemed to enjoy it again.
Will be turning 15 in the spring and have grown quite a bit for the last two years he seems to be more mature. I think he finally coming to a conclusion that skateboarding is just a hobby and Fortnite fever slowly dried out.
So here I’m debating how to go about it as he seems to want to give it a serious push and try to play competitively again.
He asked me to take a few videos to see his strokes and here a short one of him warming up from behind.
Would like to hear a brutally honest feedback on what you think we might want to pay attention to based on this short video.

carnaval09 said:

Hello again!
Decided to start where I picked off two years ago. Wow, time flies.
Not much changed for these last two years as we continued to practice two times a week taking it easy up until now when he said he wants to take up tennis seriously now as he seemed to enjoy it again.
Will be turning 15 in the spring and have grown quite a bit for the last two years he seems to be more mature. I think he finally coming to a conclusion that skateboarding is just a hobby and Fortnite fever slowly dried out.
So here I’m debating how to go about it as he seems to want to give it a serious push and try to play competitively again.
He asked me to take a few videos to see his strokes and here a short one of him warming up from behind.
Would like to hear a brutally honest feedback on what you think we might want to pay attention to based on this short video.

Click to expand...

Maybe due to how I hit, I am applying my philosophy to the critics.

I would say
1. Contact point and timing is one big issue, in my opinion, he is hitting too late on both wings and thus a lot of balls are not hit with the most efficiency. Try to have drills to help him to hit earlier if he can.
2. Footwork is fine, there are better ways to do certain shots but I wouldn't say it is a major issue to focus on right now
3. Maybe stretch more? I have a feeling that he is arming the ball a lot because he is probably still not used to have more stretched core or glute so he really can't rotate upper body without also rotating the feet

pencilcheck said:

Maybe due to how I hit, I am applying my philosophy to the critics.

I would say
1. Contact point and timing is one big issue, in my opinion, he is hitting too late on both wings and thus a lot of balls are not hit with the most efficiency. Try to have drills to help him to hit earlier if he can.
2. Footwork is fine, there are better ways to do certain shots but I wouldn't say it is a major issue to focus on right now
3. Maybe stretch more? I have a feeling that he is arming the ball a lot because he is probably still not used to have more stretched core or glute so he really can't rotate upper body without also rotating the feet

Click to expand...

Thank you!


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