Need tips for hitting a faster serve.

KenC · May 21, 2017

Zack, here's the best advice, and probably only advice you should listen to on this forum.

If your serve can be better, and your current coach isn't getting the job done, there is nothing wrong with getting a second opinion from another coach. Find a coach in the area who has a slew of students who are nailing the serve and spend a few hours with him/her. Bad advice from unqualified people can sometimes lead to physical pain that halts your tennis for a period.

Note that the vast majority of members here are not qualified coaches, including myself. I am all but sure 95% here play with glaring errors in technique, yet come here and push rediculous stuff like snap your wrist at contact on the serve, the only forehand you should hit has 5000rpms, 1HBHs are a mistake, and the list of rediculous advice goes on and on and on. Take our advice with a grain of salt and a large shot of penicillin.

Deleted member 23235 · May 22, 2017

Zack said:
I am in need of serving bigger I am 130-140lbs and I am really skinny. I am 16 years old turning 17 in October. and I wanted to start playing usta to try to get into a college for tennis just because I love playing and I want to play at a higher level. but I can only serve 80-90mph on average and I cant seem to get my racquet head speed any faster than I am swinging right now. My coach says my serve form is as good as he can tell except I need to swing faster. Does anyone have any tips?

ask @Ihatetennis

not a big guy, but a big serve.
genetics aside (height, fast twitch muscles, etc...), to me a good serve is about synchronizing power sources (legs, core, shoulder, arm, forearm, etc...), which must start with a consistent toss (and this is the hard part! ie. getting a toss that also allows you load everything properly).
90% of the time for me and others... a bad toss is the culprit for leaking power... ie because you (and i) chase, and adjust slightly meaning you lose one or more power sources...
my $0.02.

AllCourtHeathen · May 22, 2017

I serve my fastest when I really get the throwing motion happening and have a "linguine" arm.

edit: nytennisaddict hit a nail on the head too. the ball toss. I know that for me if I toss well out front and to the right, it is as though the mechanics of the serve happen naturally as I can unload to the contact point naturally.

Deleted member 23235 · May 22, 2017

AllCourtHeathen said:
I serve my fastest when I really get the throwing motion happening and have a "linguine" arm.

edit: nytennisaddict hit a nail on the head too. the ball toss. I know that for me if I toss well out front and to the right, it is as though the mechanics of the serve happen naturally as I can unload to the contact point naturally.

linguine arm helps me too... i often "shake out my arm" before i serve...

Ihatetennis · May 22, 2017

nytennisaddict said:
ask @Ihatetennis
not a big guy, but a big serve.
genetics aside (height, fast twitch muscles, etc...), to me a good serve is about synchronizing power sources (legs, core, shoulder, arm, forearm, etc...), which must start with a consistent toss (and this is the hard part! ie. getting a toss that also allows you load everything properly).
90% of the time for me and others... a bad toss is the culprit for leaking power... ie because you (and i) chase, and adjust slightly meaning you lose one or more power sources...
my $0.02.

Haha thank you,

Toss out in front of your right shoulder(as a righty) and make sure you have a full racket drop and keep your elbow at about 90 degree angle aka don't chicken wing.

Then snap up and out and get full extension

Contact should have you leaning into the court a bit and have your right shoulder extended as far up as you can.

Edit: lifting helps if you have good technique but you need lean strong muscle.

Dan R · May 22, 2017

It's hard to know without a video, but at 5'10" 140 you're big enough to hit it pretty hard. I think the biggest general problem with serves is that nearly everyone has too much tension in the serve. I think this video is helpful and funny

Zack · May 23, 2017

WildVolley said:
I remain a big believer in using video (preferably high speed video around 200 fps or more) to assess your serve. What LeeD said is probably true, as you will tend to serve harder as you get to age 18 and build strength. But building strength alone isn't going to make you serve much faster if you still have technique and timing issues.

Serve speed is more about technique than raw strength. There are guys who are weaker than me, and shorter, but who can hit higher velocity because they are generating more racquet-head speed at impact. I just had a good serve day, hitting several aces in a doubles match today over 100mph (but not over 110mph). I was very loose and had good timing today. As has been my experience in the past, my fastest serves often feel rather effortless, while the muscled ones often are slower.

In any case, try to look at good slow motion video of professionals and then get video of your own serve from behind and from the side. Good technique and good placement is going to be more important than raw pace. If your technique improves, the pace will come if you keep your shoulder healthy. I am a huge believer in making sure that your technique is giving your shoulder the best chance for remaining healthy as any throwing motion is potentially hazardous to your shoulder joint.

here is the video

Zack · May 23, 2017

here is the link to a video of my serve

Zack · May 23, 2017

Zack said:
here is the video

Zack · May 23, 2017

dgold44 said:
Good !!!!
Just upload a video

My serve is being overhauled from the beginning and I am 40 !!!!!
Finally found a high quality pro

video of my serve

Deleted member 120290 · May 23, 2017

You have a good serve motion. However it does not have the EXPLOSIVE!!! hit action that all fast servers have.
Also it appears your toss is above you instead of being a little in front of you for flat serves.

Zack · May 23, 2017

TenFanLA said:
You have a good serve motion. However it does not have the EXPLOSIVE!!! hit action that all fast servers have.
Also it appears your toss is above you instead of being a little in front of you for flat serves.

what would u recommend for more explosive power

Zack · May 23, 2017

TenFanLA said:
You have a good serve motion. However it does not have the EXPLOSIVE!!! hit action that all fast servers have.
Also it appears your toss is above you instead of being a little in front of you for flat serves.

plus I have changed some things since this video and I will be getting a better video soon

chikoo · May 23, 2017

Zack said:
here is the video

I see that "wrist snap" flexion/whatever-else-it -is-called missing. Get that and it will be a huge improvement. Refer to the Nadal video I posted earlier.

Deleted member 120290 · May 23, 2017

This is a good video for hitting more explosive serves:

Zack · May 23, 2017

TenFanLA said:
This is a good video for hitting more explosive serves:

yea I started watching that a second ago

Zack · May 23, 2017

chikoo said:
I see that "wrist snap" flexion/whatever-else-it -is-called missing. Get that and it will be a huge improvement. Refer to the Nadal video I posted earlier.

also in this video I was still holding my racquet way too tight so that also may be a reason why

Deleted member 120290 · May 23, 2017

1. Left hip thrust like Sampras and Federer
2. Bend left knee a little to thrust whole body into the serve
3. Toss into the court more to get all your weight behind the serve

Doc Hollidae · May 23, 2017

Buy a Pure Drive and call it a day......

The main thing I noticed was your legs. I will have to watch your video a few more times and compare it to other step up serves, but it seems like you aren't getting enough thrust from your legs into your serve. I'm not sure if its just a matter of using your legs more or if you are bending your knees too early, before you step up. It looks like you set up in a Platform stance and then at the last second step up. You should be stepping into your knee bend, not bending your knees before the step up.

Zack · May 23, 2017

Doc Hollidae said:
Buy a Pure Drive and call it a day......

The main thing I noticed was your legs. I will have to watch your video a few more times and compare it to other step up serves, but it seems like you aren't getting enough thrust from your legs into your serve. I'm not sure if its just a matter of using your legs more or if you are bending your knees too early, before you step up. It looks like you set up in a Platform stance and then at the last second step up. You should be stepping into your knee bend, not bending your knees before the step up.

ok thanks for the tip

Curious · May 23, 2017

Moving very slow and relaxed until the trophy pose ( instead of looking quick and rushed ) then 'exploding' into a shoulder over shoulder throw makes a big difference for me. I don't know why.
Noted your tossing arm doesn't go up vertical and comes down too early but Kyrgios and Isner do the same thing!

Zack · May 23, 2017

Curious said:
Moving very slow and relaxed until the trophy pose ( instead of looking quick and rushed ) then 'exploding' into a shoulder over shoulder throw makes a big difference for me. I don't know why.

Yea I would agree with that in a match I go way slower I was just doing some practice serves

dgold44 · May 23, 2017

Zack said:
plus I have changed some things since this video and I will be getting a better video soon

I must admit ,I am surprised
The serve looks pretty damn good !!!!
Very fluid and loose
Superb knee bend , trophy and racket drop

Excellent technique !!

Others will have to assist you because I can't

You were not kidding as you are pretty skinny
Ha
Whomever created your serve is clearly a very good pro and you are a good natural athlete

dgold44 · May 23, 2017

Zack said:
plus I have changed some things since this video and I will be getting a better video soon

It looks like a high level serve but the ball is clearly not traveling that fast ??
Very odd

Are u making contact at the top center of racket because if it's lower you get a weak sound

Zack · May 23, 2017

dgold44 said:
I must admit ,I am surprised
The serve looks pretty damn good !!!!
Very fluid and loose
Superb knee bend , trophy and racket drop

Excellent technique !!

Others will have to assist you because I can't

You were not kidding as you are pretty skinny
Ha
Whomever created your serve is clearly a very good pro and you are a good natural athlete

Yea he was the best coach I've ever had ever and trust me I've played every sport in the book but I'm definitely still working on being more lose and more explosive like someone said earlier but I have noticed an increase in speed since I posted here

dgold44 · May 23, 2017

SystemicAnomaly said:
Snapping of the wrist is a terrible description of what is happening. The phrase is misleading. That is why Chas_Tennis questioned it. That is why SCooper objected to it. I would be very surprised if Ash and tennis_balla use it their coaching threads.

It is unfortunate that Clay Ballard of Top Speed Tennis uses the term, Wrist Snap. Notice that, at the start of his video, Clay calls it controversial. Some coaches still use this outdated & misleading terminology but, I believe, that most have gotten away from it. The biggest problem with this phrase is that, in minds of many students & players, it implies an exaggerated wrist flexion. But this is not the case in a proper serve action.

Does Clay even mention wrist flexion in his video? The video itself provides some excellent info but the 'wrist snap' phrase should not be used. Clay first talks about rotation of the hand and racket. The pronation that he speaks of is NOT an action of the wrist. Instead, that rotation is a result of a rotation of the forearm (pronation) and a rotation of the shoulder (ISR) -- again, this is not an articulation of the wrist.

Clay also talks about radial and ulnar deviations. Yes, these are actions (articulations) of the wrist. And these wrist movements are definitely involved in the serve. But, while these actions are present, it is misleading to refer to them as a 'wrist snap'.

Hey
Take a look at zaks serve because it looks very good but there must be a prob
Over my head
Thx

dgold44 · May 23, 2017

Ihatetennis said:
Haha thank you,

Toss out in front of your right shoulder(as a righty) and make sure you have a full racket drop and keep your elbow at about 90 degree angle aka don't chicken wing.

Then snap up and out and get full extension

Contact should have you leaning into the court a bit and have your right shoulder extended as far up as you can.

Edit: lifting helps if you have good technique but you need lean strong muscle.

Hey ??
Are u playing college tennis or did you take a break
I think we talked last year but I cannot remember

dgold44 · May 23, 2017

Zack said:
Yea he was the best coach I've ever had ever and trust me I've played every sport in the book but I'm definitely still working on being more lose and more explosive like someone said earlier but I have noticed an increase in speed since I posted here

Plus you have full extension at contact
You also lead on edge out of trophy and it appears you have good wrist snap and control
You also float the racket way to your right side as the pros do on wind up

It's a high level technique

I was expecting a more flawed serve like I have

dgold44 · May 23, 2017

I found an error I think

You clearly slow the racket down at contact !!
Try to keep accelerating all the way through contact to finish
Also a few serves you made contact with the ball lower on strings
The arm slowing down is one to check

Zack · May 23, 2017

dgold44 said:
I found an error I think

You clearly slow the racket down at contact !!
Try to keep accelerating all the way through contact to finish
Also a few serves you made contact with the ball lower on strings
The arm slowing down is one to check

Yea I think also because in this video I was gripping my racquet way too tight it was going fast either

dgold44 · May 23, 2017

Dan R said:
It's hard to know without a video, but at 5'10" 140 you're big enough to hit it pretty hard. I think the biggest general problem with serves is that nearly everyone has too much tension in the serve. I think this video is helpful and funny

He is clearly slowing down racket at contact and beyond
Sure if he was 6-4 and 190 would help but it's not like he is 5-4 ??

5263 · May 23, 2017

Its timing and technique. Toss has to match the launch.

dgold44 · May 23, 2017

5263 said:
Its timing and technique. Toss has to match the launch.

The serve is such a complex shot to learn and it's a huge struggle for me but this guys serve is technically at a high level

SystemicAnomaly · May 23, 2017

chikoo said:
Thank you.
Unbelievable how many words it takes to even acknowledge it. This is a term that has been prevalent and did work ok for a long time till someone got confused and probably sued a coach for using the term and then blaming the coach for his failure as a tennis player.

Cool story. Funny guy. No, that prevalent term did not really work for many players for a long time. It was misleading back in the day, for many, and it continues to mislead. I was one of those multitude of players who got confused some 30 years ago by "snap the wrist". Took me a number of year to discover the truth and correct the mistake.

chikoo said:
I see that "wrist snap" flexion/whatever-else-it -is-called missing. Get that and it will be a huge improvement. Refer to the Nadal video I posted earlier.

What exactly do you believe is missing? Wrist snap? Rather ambiguous statement. Seems to be more than enough wrist flexion from what I can see in his serve. His wrist is c0cked on the upward swing and is neutral at contact. He employs forearm rotation (pronation), shoulder rotation (ISR) and some wrist action (ulnar deviation & adequate flexion). Your are probably correct that he could use more RHS speed for the contact phase (before and at impact). The speed and timing of some of these actions might be tweaked to provide a bit more RHS. More about this in my next post.

The Clay Ballard video (Nadal serve) might help. Even tho' he refers to 'wrist snap', he shows & explains what he actually means.

5263 · May 23, 2017

dgold44 said:
The serve is such a complex shot to learn and it's a huge struggle for me but this guys serve is technically at a high level

which guy? My comment was for the OP.

5263 · May 23, 2017

Zack said:
what would u recommend for more explosive power

better, stronger, more explosive launch up to the contact.

mcs1970 · May 23, 2017

You're 16 and your serve is probably better than a lot of people over here. As for pace and strength in general, look at Nadal's clips when he was your age. A totally different player in terms of power. As KenC said work with an experienced coach who can fine tune your motion. The rest will come with age. Even then some players are never going to be huge servers. Agassi was never considered a great server. Yet he is an all time great. Edberg didn't have a fast serve, but he had a spinny kicker. Rafter had a nasty kicker. There are other things than just pace. All the best.

chikoo · May 23, 2017

SystemicAnomaly said:
Cool story. Funny guy. No, that prevalent term did not really work for many players for a long time. It was misleading back in the day, for many, and it continues to mislead. I was one of those multitude of players who got confused some 30 years ago by "snap the wrist". Took me a number of year to discover the truth and correct the mistake.

What exactly do you believe is missing? Wrist snap? Rather ambiguous statement. Seems to be more than enough wrist flexion from what I can see in his serve. His wrist is c0cked on the upward swing and is neutral at contact. He employs forearm rotation (pronation), shoulder rotation (ISR) and some wrist action (ulnar deviation & adequate flexion). Your are probably correct that he could use more RHS speed for the contact phase (before and at impact). The speed and timing of some of these actions might be tweaked to provide a bit more RHS. More about this in my next post.

The Clay Ballard video (Nadal serve) might help. Even tho' he refers to 'wrist snap', he shows & explains what he actually means.

Lovely. Contradict me and then agree with me. O well...

Did you actually end up snapping your wrist?

I am Ok with it being called a snap because in the whole serving technique it is the one action that happens the fastest, like snapping fingers.

Anyways, if you look up the meaning of snap, there are many meanings. What do you understand by snap, and why are you so offended by its use?

SystemicAnomaly · May 23, 2017

Zack said:
Yea I think also because in this video I was gripping my racquet way too tight it was going fast either

If you feel that you are gripping too tight than this could be counterproductive to generating RHS. Keep it relaxed for most of your service action and just let it firm up naturally (but not too much) as the racquet head is accelerated on the upward swing to contact. You want maximum RHS during the contact phase (just prior to contact and at contact). Another reason that you may not be getting optimal RHS is that your elbow is still flexed on your upward swing when your racket is parallel to the ground. This is The Big L position. Note that Nalbandian's arm is (comfortably) straight at The Big L position (below). You arm straightens closer to contact -- so you are not transferring as much energy (or momentum) and speed to the later links (forearm, wrist, hand).

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/nalbandian_l.php

Note the straight arm in the image on the far right.

Zack · May 23, 2017

mcs1970 said:
You're 16 and your serve is probably better than a lot of people over here. As for pace and strength in general, look at Nadal's clips when he was your age. A totally different player in terms of power. As KenC said work with an experienced coach who can fine tune your motion. The rest will come with age. Even then some players are never going to be huge servers. Agassi was never considered a great server. Yet he is an all time great. Edberg didn't have a fast serve, but he had a spinny kicker. Rafter had a nasty kicker. There are other things than just pace. All the best.

yea for me its hitting lines and aces when I need to but I just want to know why my serve isn't getting the power I want

mcs1970 · May 23, 2017

If rather than watch pros you want to see how a 5.0 improves his serve, look at some of the videos posted by TT's own Matt Lin. I'm not a big proponent of emulating everything someone else does, and favor people finding what works best for them. However, some things such as balance during the toss ( a lot of players seem to fall over..and you seem to have some of that too) is an universal concept. That's one of the things that caught my eye when Chris was working with Matt. There're some other serve lessons too posted by Matt. You might pick up a couple of things. Again, given that you're 16, I think you're doing just fine.

Zack · May 23, 2017

mcs1970 said:
If rather than watch pros you want to see how a 5.0 improves his serve, look at some of the videos posted by TT's own Matt Lin. I'm not a big proponent of emulating everything someone else does, and favor people finding what works best for them. However, some things such as balance during the toss ( a lot of players seem to fall over..and you seem to have some of that too) is an universal concept. That's one of the things that caught my eye when Chris was working with Matt. There're some other serve lessons too posted by Matt. You might pick up a couple of things. Again, given that you're 16, I think you're doing just fine.

also what would you guess my ranking is just off my serve my serve isn't my best shot but I just have no idea what my ranking is

mcs1970 · May 23, 2017

Zack said:
also what would you guess my ranking is just off my serve my serve isn't my best shot but I just have no idea what my ranking is

No idea

If you play tournaments you should know your ranking. If not, you need to play to figure out. Self-rating won't do you any good.

Zack · May 23, 2017

mcs1970 said:
No idea If you play tournaments you should know your ranking. If not, you need to play to figure out. Self-rating won't do you any good.

yea I want to play usta tournaments but I want to develop a few more things obviously my serve I also switched to a one handed backhand about a month or two ago which my backhand is really good I just don't have the confidence in it yet

Doc Hollidae · May 23, 2017

Zack said:
ok thanks for the tip

Yeah looking at it again you bend your knees before the step up which turns your step up into basically an early toe drag. You are in a unique situation, because you are half way in between a platform and step up serve. I would choose whichever feels more natural. If you go platform, you would need to push off with your legs instead of stepping up. If you go step up, you need to delay your knee bend just a bit so you are bending at the step as opposed to beforehand. I suspect the early bend robs you of exploding into the ball.

Zack · May 23, 2017

Doc Hollidae said:
Yeah looking at it again you bend your knees before the step up which turns your step up into basically an early toe drag. You are in a unique situation, because you are half way in between a platform and step up serve. I would choose whichever feels more natural. If you go platform, you would need to push off with your legs instead of stepping up. If you go step up, you need to delay your knee bend just a bit so you are bending at the step as opposed to beforehand. I suspect the early bend robs you of exploding into the ball.

can you send me a video of the two different serves so I can know which is which plz

KenC · May 23, 2017

Zack said:
yea for me its hitting lines and aces when I need to but I just want to know why my serve isn't getting the power I want

I think you will benefit a great deal from a coach who is really good at analyzing the serve and doing a video analysis. Things I see that can be improved, other than being as loose as possible, you drop your tossing hand too quickly, the toss is rather low and the whole serve seems rushed. You may be able to rotate your shoulders even more and get your hip into the court before you unwind. Also, it may be that you are trying to hit the ball forward, when the real trick to a powerful serve is to think about "hitting up the mountain."

A few years ago I had a serve that was good enough to win matches but my coach got me to take it to the next level and we worked on getting into positions where there is some tension and then that tension is released during the launch to contact. It's too complicated to describe and it just has to be cautiously experienced, as doing it wrong can cause shoulder problems. That added considerable power to all my serves, first and second. Once I got that going regularly, the last trick my coach had me do is to hold the trophy pose longer than I wanted to and then I had to really accelerate through the movement "to catch up."

Good luck with your progress, and as always be careful of advice you receive on the Internet!

SystemicAnomaly · May 23, 2017

chikoo said:
Lovely. Contradict me and then agree with me. O well...

Did you actually end up snapping your wrist?

I am Ok with it being called a snap because in the whole serving technique it is the one action that happens the fastest, like snapping fingers.

Anyways, if you look up the meaning of snap, there are many meanings. What do you understand by snap, and why are you so offended by its use?

Nope, NO wrist snap. Is English your first language? Not to be insulting but I've already explained more than once why the term should be avoided. You only seem to be getting a small part of what I am saying. Or perhaps you are just ignoring most of what I am saying and only acknowledge the part that coincides with your own belief.

I'll say it one more time. The problem with the phrase, wrist snap, is what it brings to mind to many, if not most, ppl that hear the phrase. To a large percentage of ppl, it implies a forceful and exaggerated flexion of the wrist. This is NOT what should happen on the serve. Because the terminology tends to result in incorrect wrist actions, it is misleading. I cannot be any clearer than that.

If the terminology works for you, that's fine but it does a disservice to others to use this phrase w/o showing exactly what you mean since, as you say, "snapping" can mean many things. But even if you show what you mean by this phrase to others, they will turn around and "parrot" the same misleading phrase w/o showing exactly what should happen. This happens all the time and the problem perpetuates.

KenC · May 24, 2017

SystemicAnomaly said:
I'll say it one more time. The problem with the phrase, wrist snap, is what it brings to mind to many, if not most, ppl that hear the phrase. To a large percentage of ppl, it implies a forceful and exaggerated flexion of the wrist. This is NOT what should happen on the serve. Because the terminology tends to result in incorrect wrist actions, it is misleading. I cannot be any clearer than that.

Keep up the good fight SA. This is the stuff that drives me crazy when I see tennis advice on the Internet and on the courts between untrained players. I can't think of a better way to injure my wrist than to actively perform flexion and/or deviation of the wrist during contact. Even if people really mean pronation, they should avoid misleading terms and properly demonstrate what it really is. And people wonder why I am always harping on the benefits of getting a good coach to oversee their tennis progress...

Bender · May 24, 2017

AllCourtHeathen said:
I serve my fastest when I...have a "linguine" arm.

Misread that as 'lingerie' arm...

Need tips for hitting a faster serve.

What should i do to get a bigger serve?

Should i lift more weights?

Should i try to get bigger?

Should i do my swing motion with a weight to make my racquet lighter?

Or is it a time thing?

All of the above.

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