Kick Serve Tips/help

[tennisguy2317]

Hi, I am still learning how to kick serve. For some reason, I am having a lot of trouble consistently kick serving and I was wondering if you guys could give me some tips. I was able to kick serve at my best during one of my recent tournaments. Like I was able to use it even for my first serve, because it was so consistent and had enough spin to force errors. But I have found trouble replicating the same movement. Does anyone have tips on just how to kick serve or things I should be focusing on when attempting it?

Another question I had was regarding the racquet face at contact on a kick serve. Should it be tilted more to the left?

-- If you pause at 0:48, you will notice his racquet is tilted more to the left. I thought this was more of a slice serve and for a kick serve you would want to be coming up the back of the ball?

Sorry if that sounded a little confusing, but I need help. Any tips or advice are appreciated, thanks.

 

[apriliano]

Welcome to the internet

 

[Kevo]

The motion of the strings across the ball as well as where the contact on the ball is will determine the spin. The angle of the strings determines the initial direction of the ball. Once you understand those elements and can control them you will be able to apply different variations of spin and direction that will make your spin serves difficult to read and very effective.

My advice is to start by picking a particular spin and direction you want to achieve and then hit the serve as slow as necessary and as many times as needed to deliver that serve consistently. Then slowly increase your swing speed and any time the serve starts to go off, reduce the speed a notch and continue practicing.

 

[Chas Tennis]

.............Should it be tilted more to the left?

-- If you pause at 0:48, you will notice his racquet is tilted more to the left. I thought this was more of a slice serve and for a kick serve you would want to be coming up the back of the ball?
......................................

There are a lot of racket orientations in what is shown at "48" seconds. At impact the answer is yes. That is simply so that the racket can continue up after impact.

I just posted 3 in three threads in the last week that show videos of how the racket moves up etc.for a kick serve. And why the angle between the forearm-and-racket is smaller (racket tilts more to the left for a RH player) than for a slice or flat serve. The slice and flat serves are closer to their highest racket point at impact.The racket on the kick serve is farther below its highest point at impact - that's what give the topspin. The forearm-to -racket angle accounts for most of that rise.

But keep in mind that probably 60% of active tennis players use a Waiter's Tray technique. Probably less than 20% use a technique basically resembling a high level serve. The high level serve is well know and described but the other techniques are not.

Advice or a player's experience from a player with an unknown technique to another player with another unknown technique probably does not apply.......

Examine your serving technique with high speed video.

 

[FiReFTW]

Find a coach and tell him you want to learn the kick serve.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The racket also tilts forward more during impact. That causes the strings to contact on the top half of the ball.

There is no such thing as the strings going straight up on a high level kick serve. Search: rod cross lindsay "Technical Tennis"

Look for the pictures of ball impact in the reference book Technical Tennis.

The Physics of the Kick Serve Rod Cross is a very informative article.

 

[tennisguy2317]

The racket also tilts forward more during impact. That causes the strings to contact on the top half of the ball.

There is no such thing as the strings going straight up on a high level kick serve. Search: rod cross lindsay "Technical Tennis"

Look for the pictures of ball impact in the reference book Technical Tennis.

The Physics of the Kick Serve Rod Cross is a very informative article.

Hi thanks for your help. Wouldn't contacting the string at the top half of the ball force the ball down, thus limiting topspin? I understand how the racquet tilts forward more during impact on groundstrokes, such as a forehand. But I feel like the brushing action on groundstrokes is more vertical than on a serve.

 

[tennisguy2317]

There are a lot of racket orientations in what is shown at "48" seconds. At impact the answer is yes. That is simply so that the racket can continue up after impact.

I just posted 3 in three threads in the last week that show videos of how the racket moves up etc.for a kick serve. And why the angle between the forearm-and-racket is smaller (racket tilts more to the left for a RH player) than for a slice or flat serve. The slice and flat serves are closer to their highest racket point at impact.The racket on the kick serve is farther below its highest point at impact - that's what give the topspin. The forearm-to -racket angle accounts for most of that rise.

But keep in mind that probably 60% of active tennis players use a Waiter's Tray technique. Probably less than 20% use a technique basically resembling a high level serve. The high level serve is well know and described but the other techniques are not.

Advice or a player's experience from a player with an unknown technique to another player with another unknown technique probably does not apply.......

Examine your serving technique with high speed video.

Thanks for your help. That really cleared some things up. How then would I get the ball to kick out the my opponents backhand if I was serving from the ad-side (righty)? Wouldn't the tilt of the racquet to left force it more down the middle of the service box?

 

[RetroSpin]

On a kicker,the toss is more to the left of your body, your body is more turned to the right or closed, you try to retain that "closed" orientation longer and you hit the ball with the racquet face moving up and across. Try to hold the angle between the racquet and your forearm as you swing up and let your wrist turn over, ie pronate, after contact.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Hi thanks for your help. Wouldn't contacting the string at the top half of the ball force the ball down, thus limiting topspin? I understand how the racquet tilts forward more during impact on groundstrokes, such as a forehand. But I feel like the brushing action on groundstrokes is more vertical than on a serve.

On top spin drive ground strokes the racket initially contacts the top half of the ball because the racket is closed by about 5-10 d at first touch. This includes heavy top spin drives. These balls rise leaving the racket with heavy top spin. The angle of the strings at impact is one factor and another factor is the direction of the string velocity. During impact the ball and string interaction becomes complicated because the ball and strings distort.

There are many threads on the kick serve. The Federer serve in a post #19 of this thread is described as a kick serve. The racket was closed by about 15 d during impact.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...in-serve-and-topspin-fh-ground-stroke.575548/

I believe that the initial contact of the racket and ball on a kick serve is closed because of the Technical Tennis discussions. These are some of the more reasonable discussions of ball and racket contact in 3D. Also the Federer video and a Stosur video that show the tilt of the racket on the ball. Toly also had some earlier posts describing the same closed angle.

Almost all of the internet information is based on 2D and much is based on 2D clock face descriptions that can't describe 3D.

 

[Chas Tennis]

............ Wouldn't contacting the string at the top half of the ball force the ball down, thus limiting topspin? I understand how the racquet tilts forward more during impact on groundstrokes, such as a forehand. But I feel like the brushing action on groundstrokes is more vertical than on a serve.

On top spin drive ground strokes the racket initially contacts the top half of the ball because the racket is closed by about 5-10 d at first touch. This includes heavy top spin drives. These balls rise leaving the racket with heavy top spin. The angle of the strings at impact is one factor and another factor is the direction of the string velocity. During impact the ball and string interaction becomes complicated because the ball and strings distort.

There are many threads on the kick serve. The Federer serve in a post of this thread is described as a kick serve. The racket was closed by about 15 d during impact.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...in-serve-and-topspin-fh-ground-stroke.575548/

I believe that the initial contact of the racket and ball on a kick serve is closed because of the Technical Tennis discussions. These are some of the more reasonable discussions of ball and racket contact in 3D. Also the Federer video and a Stosur video that show the tilt of the racket on the ball. Toly also had some earlier posts describing the same closed angle.

Almost all of the internet information is based on 2D and much is based on 2D clock face descriptions that can't describe 3D. Spin axes have three dimensions.

See gyrospin in the article The Physics of the Kick Serve by Rod Cross.