Benefits of Alu/Gut @ same tension -v- differential tensions

racket king · Jun 8, 2017

I was looking at the photos posted by one the pro (Grand Slam / ATP) stringers on here and Murray has his rackets strung with Alu / VS gut at exactly the same tension with 10% PS on the gut.

Everyone knows Fed strings his gut 2-3lbs higher but he uses gut in the mains, whereas Murray has it in the crosses.

When using gut in the crosses what are the playing benefits / differences stringing both at the same tensions vs say a 2-3lb difference between the poly and gut?

kkm · Jun 8, 2017

I'd go with whatever keeps the dimensions of the hoop the same after stringing. With poly-gut hybrids I've seen enough frames that need the poly tension to be higher than the gut tension, or the gut tension to be lower than the poly tension, whatever way you want to look at it. I've had frames where if the poly mains were strung at X and the gut crosses were strung at X too there was hoop elongation, or where the gut mains were strung at X and the poly crosses were strung at X there was hoop compression. YMMV.

chrisingrassia · Jun 8, 2017

The X's are used as a component to stiffen/soften the stringbed, and enhance/deaden the feedback response on shots. Corresponding tensions affect both of those criteria.
Anyone who has used gut or a quality multifilament knows the "ping" feel that I'm talking about.

For the everyday rec player, poly mains and gut crosses is a waste of money IMO. I don't pay any attention to what pros use or how they use it, they get all their crap for free, get new sticks every tournament custom-made for them, and they use a racquet only for like 6 or 7 games.

racket king · Jun 8, 2017

chrisingrassia said:
The X's are used as a component to stiffen/soften the stringbed, and enhance/deaden the feedback response on shots. Corresponding tensions affect both of those criteria.
Anyone who has used gut or a quality multifilament knows the "ping" feel that I'm talking about.

For the everyday rec player, poly mains and gut crosses is a waste of money IMO. I don't pay any attention to what pros use or how they use it, they get all their crap for free, get new sticks every tournament custom-made for them, and they use a racquet only for like 6 or 7 games.

I think you've misunderstood the question. The question was about playing differences between same tensions and differential tensions. The reference to pro players was to illustrate two different setups being used.

MathieuR · Jun 8, 2017

In a 16*19 pattern, Stringway's TA "in general" gives ~4# less for the crosses, and in a 18*20 X and M are same; both aiming at maintaining head-shape

Edit: and I think that if you keep your strings for more then 9 games, you should have the soft string in the mains.

Imago · Jun 8, 2017

You should first postulate that equal reference tension will never get you equal final tension, then decide what do you want to achieve:
1. Use equal tension to get different string tension in the end,
2. Use different tension to get equal string tension in the end, or
3. Use different tension to get structured different string tension in the end.

Irvin · Jun 8, 2017

Imago said:
You should first postulate that equal reference tension will never get you equal final tension, then decide what do you want to achieve:
1. Use equal tension to get different string tension in the end,
2. Use different tension to get equal string tension in the end, or
3. Use different tension to get structured different string tension in the end.

Yeah right???? For the price of a set of strings I can get a Sergetti pattern and jot worry about tension. I'd out the gut in the mains for more power and feel. Or the poly in the mains for more life.

Imago · Jun 8, 2017

Irvin said:
Yeah right???? For the price of a set of strings I can get a Sergetti pattern and jot worry about tension. I'd out the gut in the mains for more power and feel. Or the poly in the mains for more life.

Yes, this is the third option.

chrisingrassia · Jun 8, 2017

racket king said:
I think you've misunderstood the question. The question was about playing differences between same tensions and differential tensions. The reference to pro players was to illustrate two different setups being used.

And my response is that pros, like those in your examples, are using same tensions or differential tensions due to playability and feel of the racquet that they prefer. Because you're essentially asking why one pro uses gut mains and poly crosses, but another pro uses poly mains and gut crosses.......and why one pro uses same tension for both versus another pro who differentiates the tensions. Those preferences are based on stringbed stiffness and feedback.
When you ask this question of stringers, they will give answers that have to do with hoop shape. If you ask a player or a pro, I'd bet my left arm they don't give a sh*t about keeping hoop shape and instead are using those combinations due to desired stringbed feel and feedback.

kkm · Jun 8, 2017

^^^I agree, I suspect most pros don't know about or think of hoop shape. Many pros seem to think that dropping tension on the crosses, no matter what, leads to more spin, or whatever they want to think. Seems that fewer pros go for the same or higher tension on the crosses.

racket king · Jun 8, 2017

chrisingrassia said:
And my response is that pros, like those in your examples, are using same tensions or differential tensions due to playability and feel of the racquet that they prefer. Because you're essentially asking why one pro uses gut mains and poly crosses, but another pro uses poly mains and gut crosses.......and why one pro uses same tension for both versus another pro who differentiates the tensions. Those preferences are based on stringbed stiffness and feedback.
When you ask this question of stringers, they will give answers that have to do with hoop shape. If you ask a player or a pro, I'd bet my left arm they don't give a sh*t about keeping hoop shape and instead are using those combinations due to desired stringbed feel and feedback.

I couldn't care about hoop shape either. I'm surprised that no one has remarked on playing differences or provided any answer based on playability.

chrisingrassia · Jun 8, 2017

racket king said:
I couldn't care about hoop shape either. I'm surprised that no one has remarked on playing differences or provided any answer based on playability.

Because the answer is very individualistic. I would imagine that Murray and Federer both give very different reasons why they do what they do. Andy is a touch player, quite a bit flatter ball than Federer. Playing/game style has a lot to do with the preference as well.
If I personally used poly mains and gut crosses, it would be because I'm trying to soften up my stringbed but still get good feedback on the ball and durability from the mains. Gut crosses will get destroyed in no time in that setup. But even this principle relies on tensions strung at.

Going vice versa (gut mains, poly crosses), I'm looking for maximum feedback on the racquet, generating considerable power, and the crosses can change my stiffness. Gut is a better string at high tension, poly at low.

If people are looking to generate more spin, then I always recommend tennis lessons to work on mechanics or try out some more open-pattern racquets. Think about it.....does Rafa and Thiem and Gasquet get the RPMs they do because of their string?

It's truly, truly not a science. Every player is different. There's just simply no one-answer-fits-all for your question.

kkm · Jun 8, 2017

chrisingrassia said:
If people are looking to generate more spin, then I always recommend tennis lessons to work on mechanics"..."Think about it.....does Rafa and Thiem and Gasquet get the RPMs they do because of their string?

It's truly, truly not a science. Every player is different. There's just simply no one-answer-fits-all for your question.

What you said is absolutely right, touring pros' preferences are based on a mishmash of art, science, pseudoscience, and plain old BS.

racket king · Jun 9, 2017

chrisingrassia said:
Because the answer is very individualistic. I would imagine that Murray and Federer both give very different reasons why they do what they do. Andy is a touch player, quite a bit flatter ball than Federer. Playing/game style has a lot to do with the preference as well.
If I personally used poly mains and gut crosses, it would be because I'm trying to soften up my stringbed but still get good feedback on the ball and durability from the mains. Gut crosses will get destroyed in no time in that setup. But even this principle relies on tensions strung at.

Going vice versa (gut mains, poly crosses), I'm looking for maximum feedback on the racquet, generating considerable power, and the crosses can change my stiffness. Gut is a better string at high tension, poly at low.

If people are looking to generate more spin, then I always recommend tennis lessons to work on mechanics or try out some more open-pattern racquets. Think about it.....does Rafa and Thiem and Gasquet get the RPMs they do because of their string?

It's truly, truly not a science. Every player is different. There's just simply no one-answer-fits-all for your question.

None of that even relates to the original question.

I'll assume that you have no experience of different setups and that you just like posting randomly from now on.

kkm · Jun 9, 2017

Going to the original question look at Murray. Maybe he has his sticks strung with 10% prestretch on the gut when it's done by the stringers who take care of his sticks when he's not on tour. But P1? Their Star 4s don't have prestretch, so P1 manually prestretching his natty gut before stringing will never be the same as his other other stringers doing 10% machine prestretch.

And for all we know Federer might be choosing lower cross tension for the same reason lots of other touring pros do, just dropping the cross tension because they think it gives more spin.

Shroud · Jun 25, 2017

racket king said:
I was looking at the photos posted by one the pro (Grand Slam / ATP) stringers on here and Murray has his rackets strung with Alu / VS gut at exactly the same tension with 10% PS on the gut.

Everyone knows Fed strings his gut 2-3lbs higher but he uses gut in the mains, whereas Murray has it in the crosses.

When using gut in the crosses what are the playing benefits / differences stringing both at the same tensions vs say a 2-3lb difference between the poly and gut?

My 2 cents is that gut crosses gives a locked stringbed with a lower launch angle. Poly crosses allow snapback and create a higher launch angle. The higher tension in Feds mains should help with snapback and spin

Iirc there is a ball trajectory comparison with Murray, Fed, novak and nadal. Murray has the flattest trajectory which would be expected with a locked string bed.

And before you technique guys chime in that string beds wont affect trajectory, please go and play with full kevlar at 86/86 and see how flat your shots become

amoeba · Jun 26, 2017

And before you technique guys chime in that string beds wont affect trajectory, please go and play with full kevlar at 86/86 and see how flat your shots become

I agree with Shroud - I've just switched from Kevlar/MonogutZX to NatGut/Alu and the ball trajectory has definitely gone up, how I like it.

racket king · Jun 26, 2017

Shroud said:
My 2 cents is that gut crosses gives a locked stringbed with a lower launch angle.

I wish you had replied earlier because you could have saved me from blowing a set of Alu and gut crosses...

Soft gut crosses dent/notch almost straight away, even more so after a day of being in the racket without play. Just a waste of time!!

Played like crap and I cut them out after 30mins of hitting...

Shroud · Jun 26, 2017

racket king said:
I wish you had replied earlier because you could have saved me from blowing a set of Alu and gut crosses...

Soft gut crosses dent/notch almost straight away, even more so after a day of being in the racket without play. Just a waste of time!!

Played like crap and I cut them out after 30mins of hitting...

Really? You dont seem like the type to read a post and not do what you had planned. But i could be wrong.

Now you know locked beds arent your thing

Shroud · Jun 26, 2017

amoeba said:
I agree with Shroud - I've just switched from Kevlar/MonogutZX to NatGut/Alu and the ball trajectory has definitely gone up, how I like it.

Yep. If you use a big differential with the kev zx its possible to increase the angle IME. But gut/ poly will be more i bet. Do give gut/zx a try though

racket king · Jun 26, 2017

Shroud said:
Really? You dont seem like the type to read a post and not do what you had planned. But i could be wrong.

Now you know locked beds arent your thing

Nothing beats actual experience of the thing in question.

TBH, I tried poly/gut many, many years ago, and have never strung that way ever since. Just couldn't remember what the reason for that was...but at least I've been reminded now!

Went with Lux Gut mains / Head poly crosses in another racket. That actually played really well with a pre-stretch on the gut and at 60/58. There's actually some locking of the strings and the poly dents, but it's not as bad as the other way round.

Shroud · Jun 26, 2017

racket king said:
Nothing beats actual experience of the thing in question.

TBH, I tried poly/gut many, many years ago, and have never strung that way ever since. Just couldn't remember what the reason for that was...but at least I've been reminded now!

Went with Lux Gut mains / Head poly crosses in another racket. That actually played really well with a pre-stretch on the gut and at 60/58. There's actually some locking of the strings and the poly dents, but it's not as bad as the other way round.

Cool. One advantage of monogutzx is that it doesnt seem to dent at all. But its softer than poly

amoeba · Jun 27, 2017

Yep. If you use a big differential with the kev zx its possible to increase the angle IME. But gut/ poly will be more i bet. Do give gut/zx a try though

I had a fairly big differential on kevlar/zyex - 66/48. Despite that, the rebound angle with gut/alu at 57/54 is noticeably higher to me.

I'll give zyex crosses a try next. I am a little worried that Alu rough is going to shred the gut quicker than a smooth cross.

tennisaddict03 · Jul 21, 2017

amoeba said:
I had a fairly big differential on kevlar/zyex - 66/48. Despite that, the rebound angle with gut/alu at 57/54 is noticeably higher to me.

I'll give zyex crosses a try next. I am a little worried that Alu rough is going to shred the gut quicker than a smooth cross.

It's not as rough as you think.

Benefits of Alu/Gut @ same tension -v- differential tensions

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