In/Out Device

T

Tennis_Monk

Hall of Fame
newpball said:
Hawk-eye uses triangulation with laser positioned high speed cameras (6), this thing does not.

It's going to be interesting because the folks who put down $200 for this thing will never admit it is not working.
I will wait till this lands en-masse on Craigslist for $25!

:D
Click to expand...
Why would you buy something that you think doesn't work for 25$?
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
newpball said:
Hawk-eye uses triangulation with laser positioned high speed cameras (6), this thing does not.

It's going to be interesting because the folks who put down $200 for this thing will never admit it is not working.
I will wait till this lands en-masse on Craigslist for $25!

:D
Click to expand...
They make no claims that this is as accurate as Hawkeye. As someone who works in this field, there is nothing on principle that would stop this from working altogether

And honestly I'd pay $60-$80 for the match recording functionality alone
 
eelhc

eelhc

Hall of Fame
newpball said:
Hawk-eye uses triangulation with laser positioned high speed cameras (6), this thing does not.

It's going to be interesting because the folks who put down $200 for this thing will never admit it is not working.
I will wait till this lands en-masse on Craigslist for $25!

:D
Click to expand...

Like Hawkeye... it's a visual system. But Hawkeye has more cameras, is laser calibrated and has a triangulation algorithm. Not gonna happen in a $200 system. That said, tracking an object through a camera is pretty darn simple these days. Nothing physically impossible... just not as accurate.

I've purchased things that cost 100x more than that that I was excited over that later on I fully admitted were junk.

If you're so sure if this doesn't work... why would you even pay $25 for it?

Like I said... most people who make good LIFE decisions don't have to fret over $200. $200 paperweight? no big deal.
 
D

Demented

Semi-Pro
Karma Tennis said:
None of that matters if the players agree to abide by the decisions of the system.
Click to expand...

I'm surprised no one has though this statement through. It doesn't matter if the device is +-20 mm. That just means the lines will be a bit bigger than usual. The important factor is that every shot will be called consistently and everyone is playing on the same level playing field. I don't care if your ball is 5mm passed the line as long as my balls are allowed the same. It's all about fair calls and not having to argue about what did or did not happen.
 
P

pnw_hardcourt

Rookie
Justin Yesso said:
I'm surprised no one has though this statement through. It doesn't matter if the device is +-20 mm. That just means the lines will be a bit bigger than usual. The important factor is that every shot will be called consistently and everyone is playing on the same level playing field. I don't care if your ball is 5mm passed the line as long as my balls are allowed the same. It's all about fair calls and not having to argue about what did or did not happen.
Click to expand...

I myself have no problem leaving it to the device, but I'm a pretty agreeable person on the court. However I can certainly see someone else getting upset because the device isn't actually "consistent" in inconsistency. You won't get the same level of error margin on all calls because it depends on how the camera tracks the ball. So a near side line without obstruction might be 100% accurate while a far side call with a player in front of the line of sight and the sun glaring into the lens might be 15% accurate.
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
pnw_hardcourt said:
I myself have no problem leaving it to the device, but I'm a pretty agreeable person on the court. However I can certainly see someone else getting upset because the device isn't actually "consistent" in inconsistency. You won't get the same level of error margin on all calls because it depends on how the camera tracks the ball. So a near side line without obstruction might be 100% accurate while a far side call with a player in front of the line of sight and the sun glaring into the lens might be 15% accurate.
Click to expand...
I think good way to handle those bad call on the far side line is to have a discussion among all 4 players and all have to agree with the call.
 
D

Demented

Semi-Pro
I would guess that it will be consistent in its inaccuracy. That's all I really care about. If the far side of the court is looser than the near side etc, I'm fine because we're all playing on the same court and changing ends. Doubles will obviously have its challenges but I find that doubles calls are always going to be easier to live with because someone is usually near the ball at all times. Singles is much harder since you might have to call a ball that's 20 feet away from you. I am interested to see how/if this thing calls serves. How does it deal with the center line and knowing which box the server was aiming for?
 
Karma Tennis

Karma Tennis

Legend
pnw_hardcourt said:
I myself have no problem leaving it to the device, but I'm a pretty agreeable person on the court. However I can certainly see someone else getting upset because the device isn't actually "consistent" in inconsistency. You won't get the same level of error margin on all calls because it depends on how the camera tracks the ball. So a near side line without obstruction might be 100% accurate while a far side call with a player in front of the line of sight and the sun glaring into the lens might be 15% accurate.
Click to expand...

Solution is to use two units, one mounted on each Net post :)

Who says a single person has to purchase the devices. Get 4 players to pitch in and they are each up for $100.
 
ElMagoElGato

ElMagoElGato

Semi-Pro
My guess is that the device only judges the ball is in or out. It doesn't judge like the ball should be called in up to 20 mm out. The ball called in might be 1 mm out, 5 mm out, or 20 mm out at maximum or vice versa. It all happens randomly. There won't be such consistency that 20 mm out will always be called in. All said, I'm more than happy to accept calls if a person only makes wrong calls by 20 mm a few times during a match.

I agree that using two units will solve most of the difficult situations. I hope the software communicates each other and makes an integral judgment. But it will be a bit more development.
 
P

pnw_hardcourt

Rookie
ElMagoElGato said:
My guess is that the device only judges the ball is in or out. It doesn't judge like the ball should be called in up to 20 mm out. The ball called in might be 1 mm out, 5 mm out, or 20 mm out at maximum or vice versa. It all happens randomly. There won't be such consistency that 20 mm out will always be called in. All said, I'm more than happy to accept calls if a person only makes wrong calls by 20 mm a few times during a match.

I agree that using two units will solve most of the difficult situations. I hope the software communicates each other and makes an integral judgment. But it will be a bit more development.
Click to expand...

This functionality already exists, two units will communicate together and is suggested for doubles.
 
ElMagoElGato

ElMagoElGato

Semi-Pro
pnw_hardcourt said:
This functionality already exists, two units will communicate together and is suggested for doubles.
Click to expand...

I think it's the feature called "double play" and it won't be included in the beta. The site says it will be in the 1.0 release, so it might not be such a big deal, though.
 
eelhc

eelhc

Hall of Fame
ElMagoElGato said:
My guess is that the device only judges the ball is in or out. It doesn't judge like the ball should be called in up to 20 mm out. The ball called in might be 1 mm out, 5 mm out, or 20 mm out at maximum or vice versa. It all happens randomly. There won't be such consistency that 20 mm out will always be called in. All said, I'm more than happy to accept calls if a person only makes wrong calls by 20 mm a few times during a match.

I agree that using two units will solve most of the difficult situations. I hope the software communicates each other and makes an integral judgment. But it will be a bit more development.
Click to expand...

20mm is actually pretty darn good and I suspect better than almost all players. We think we can see balls that are 20mm in or out but consider this... The diameter of a Tennis ball when it is round is ~67mm. So 20mm is less than 1/3 the width of the tennis ball... but even less than that since the ball is compressed and elliptical when it lands. A player who is tired, running, burning cycles trying to think of what shot to play next, etc... is not a line judge who is singularly focused on the call. I'd be ecstatic if my opponents margin of error was +/-20mm. Particularly if they're the type to hook calls. Also consider that for singles play, this device is in a much better position optically to call serves long. Same as baseline shots where you're behind the ball.
 
T

Tennis_Monk

Hall of Fame
Line calls haven’t been a big issue for me. I lost some important matches and tournaments on what I thought were bad line calls but also won a few when the calls went in my favor.

In friendly matches, I don’t care about line calls. If a guy wins against me based on a couple bad line calls, I am ok and let the other guy feel better.

What I’m hoping to get out of this product is some deeper insights on my game. The way I think I’m playing vs how I actually play in a match. I tried video taping but processing all that info in some structure across matches is time consuming.
 
ElMagoElGato

ElMagoElGato

Semi-Pro
Tennis_Monk said:
Line calls haven’t been a big issue for me. I lost some important matches and tournaments on what I thought were bad line calls but also won a few when the calls went in my favor.

In friendly matches, I don’t care about line calls. If a guy wins against me based on a couple bad line calls, I am ok and let the other guy feel better.

What I’m hoping to get out of this product is some deeper insights on my game. The way I think I’m playing vs how I actually play in a match. I tried video taping but processing all that info in some structure across matches is time consuming.
Click to expand...

What is your measurement to analyze your play? Do you look at placement ratio like we see on TV? Or do you track shot sequence point by point?
 
T

therecanbeonlyone

Semi-Pro
Tennis_Monk said:
What I’m hoping to get out of this product is some deeper insights on my game. The way I think I’m playing vs how I actually play in a match. I tried video taping but processing all that info in some structure across matches is time consuming.
Click to expand...

I'm with you here. Just think about another aspect of it if you are a gear junkie or racketholic. This will give you ball speed and accuracy stats that I can only feel and guess at right now. Do I really hit a faster serve with one racket as opposed to another? Is my depth/aim of groundstrokes better with lead at 3 and 9? I'll let the device tell me for sure. I could even use this for racket and string reviews here at TW.
 
M

Maximus XXIV

Rookie
Agree on the stats but I also like an impartial "judge" that makes discussion of in or out moot. I was playing on a wet court with a regular player in our group and h e called a ball in. The mark that was left on the wet court was actually a couple of inches out. I bet this will be more accurate on calls than 95% of players.

Worse case scenario is nothing works well but you get a camera that fits on the net post nicely. Although, based on the demo videos it looks like it will work.
 
M

Maximus XXIV

Rookie
Per newsletter, shipping in October most likely. Donors first, then regular owners. They will continue to improve line calling algorithims and are releasing the app in October.
 
P

pnw_hardcourt

Rookie
New production videos at https://twitter.com/inout_tennis

From the Newsletter:

What is the immediate next step?
The units are now being transferred to California via air. Due to all the customs procedures and requirements, that should not take more than a dozen of days - unless the customs officer is a tennis player and he wants to delay in order to try them all! In/Out has very little influence on this process.

I expect to receive the units by the end of this month in California.

What will happen then?

In California:
  • While the latest version of the beta firmware is flashed, a last second series of test will be performed to make sure the electronics behaves correctly.
  • The units will then be closed after a final inspection and clean-up.
  • Shipping label will be printed and put on the shipping box.
I anticipate the first unit to be shipped out by the early day of October. This California process to ship out the whole first batch is going to spread along the month of October and will be performed as quickly as possible while not jeopardizing the quality.​

Newsletter also contains the companion app screenshot and it looks to be built with modern framework:

dbJIOGj.png


"The "companion app" has now been fully developed and is heavily tested. It can run on Android and iOS phone or tablet. The In/Out device can work in standalone and doesn't need an app to make line calls. The companion app adds more features and enables the visualization of the play statistics. The companion app will be available at the Android and Apple stores around the first day of October."
 
M

Maximus XXIV

Rookie
I was angling to go pick one up but he is not amenable to that I ordered the day it was opened to the general public. I should get it in a day or 2 after shipment.
 
Last edited:
M

Maximus XXIV

Rookie
The only bad calls that bother me is when I clearly hit the t or corner on the t and they call out. The rest are harder for me to call. We played on the wet once and one of the regulars called out. You could clearly see the mark 4 inches in the line.

Less cheating and more bad eyesight/preconceptions.
 
Karma Tennis

Karma Tennis

Legend
Maximus XXIV said:
The only bad calls that bother me is when I clearly hit the t or corner on the t and they call out. The rest are harder for me to call. We played on the wet once and one of the regulars called out. You could clearly see the mark 4 inches in the line.

Less cheating and more bad eyesight/preconceptions.
Click to expand...

Nothing to do with eyesight. Mainly to do with human anatomy.

https://www.si.com/vault/1982/11/15...best-where-a-tennis-ball-bounces-on-the-court

In other research conducted by the late great Vic Brayden, it was concluded that a tennis ball can roll up to 4 inches before leaving the court. Most players will see the ball leaving the court and make the call based on that observation. So your "4 inch experience" is quite reasonable under certain circumstances and backed up by a lot of scientific research conducted decades ago.

I've given up trying to explain these concepts to countless players and especially parents of junior players. Many just don't get it.
 
ElMagoElGato

ElMagoElGato

Semi-Pro
Karma Tennis said:
Nothing to do with eyesight. Mainly to do with human anatomy.

https://www.si.com/vault/1982/11/15...best-where-a-tennis-ball-bounces-on-the-court

In other research conducted by the late great Vic Brayden, it was concluded that a tennis ball can roll up to 4 inches before leaving the court. Most players will see the ball leaving the court and make the call based on that observation. So your "4 inch experience" is quite reasonable under certain circumstances and backed up by a lot of scientific research conducted decades ago.

I've given up trying to explain these concepts to countless players and especially parents of junior players. Many just don't get it.
Click to expand...

I know what you're saying. I witnessed it in Shanghai when Lubicic did it numerous times with his serve on the slippery surface. But don't complicate the thing here because it doesn't happen so often around local courts.
 
Karma Tennis

Karma Tennis

Legend
ElMagoElGato said:
I know what you're saying. I witnessed it in Shanghai when Lubicic did it numerous times with his serve on the slippery surface. But don't complicate the thing here because it doesn't happen so often around local courts.
Click to expand...

What doesn't happen so often around local courts? The ball sliding up to 4 inches? Or poor line calling?

A tennis ball will pretty much always slide some length on any surface. Usually anywhere from 2 to 4 inches. The human eye usually sees the ball leaving the court because the ball slows down enough after hitting the surface for the eye to "catch up" to it..

Most balls that land within two inches inside of the baseline are usually called "Out" by the player simply because of the limitations of human anatomy.
 
P

pnw_hardcourt

Rookie
Line calling is difficult because people think they're good at it and they "know" it was in or out etc. But as it's been brought up there's more going on than just a ball bouncing on a line. Those that say they have no issues calling lines would surely would be proved wrong if they were to play with hawkeye.
 
ElMagoElGato

ElMagoElGato

Semi-Pro
Karma Tennis said:
What doesn't happen so often around local courts? The ball sliding up to 4 inches? Or poor line calling?

A tennis ball will pretty much always slide some length on any surface. Usually anywhere from 2 to 4 inches. The human eye usually sees the ball leaving the court because the ball slows down enough after hitting the surface for the eye to "catch up" to it..

Most balls that land within two inches inside of the baseline are usually called "Out" by the player simply because of the limitations of human anatomy.
Click to expand...

Ball sliding over a cross line is not often. Poor line calling is often. If you readily have 110 to 120 mph servers around, you'll see them hit service lines quite often. What else?
 
Fedinkum

Fedinkum

Legend
This is great news for club players. Whether it is super accurate or not, not that important. What is important is that it is neutral. The most frustrating thing to watch kiddies matches at weekend comp is the blatant bad calls. You can't argue with a machine.
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Twitter update:

The units arrived late in California last week - the customs and the Chinese Holidays didn't help. But everything is USA now
Final step for shipment has started. To be honest, slower than expected, but it's moving. Can't go faster without jeopardizing quality
I wrote in the September newsletter that shipments are going to be spread along October and this is what is happening now
No shipment this week but I expect a bunch of orders (for donors) to go out next week and more fulfillment the week after
 
JEDI MASTER

JEDI MASTER

Professional
jm1980 said:
Twitter update:

The units arrived late in California last week - the customs and the Chinese Holidays didn't help. But everything is USA now
Final step for shipment has started. To be honest, slower than expected, but it's moving. Can't go faster without jeopardizing quality
I wrote in the September newsletter that shipments are going to be spread along October and this is what is happening now
No shipment this week but I expect a bunch of orders (for donors) to go out next week and more fulfillment the week after
Click to expand...

that's great to here!... can't wait to get mine by end of the month..or sooner...
 
T

Tennis_Monk

Hall of Fame
It is interesting that he did hint about price increase and comparing to GOPro.

I am guessing that new units may be costing around 500$.

—-
GoPro Hero 6 announced for $499. In/Out has 2 cameras, kind of similar spec, unique computer vision / artificial intelligence, for only $199
—-
 
M

Maximus XXIV

Rookie
Tennis_Monk said:
It is interesting that he did hint about price increase and comparing to GOPro.

I am guessing that new units may be costing around 500$.

—-
GoPro Hero 6 announced for $499. In/Out has 2 cameras, kind of similar spec, unique computer vision / artificial intelligence, for only $199
—-
Click to expand...
He already has said $249 for the v1.0 and later. I will buy a second if it works well.
 
mmk

mmk

Hall of Fame
pnw_hardcourt said:
Line calling is difficult because people think they're good at it and they "know" it was in or out etc. But as it's been brought up there's more going on than just a ball bouncing on a line. Those that say they have no issues calling lines would surely would be proved wrong if they were to play with hawkeye.
Click to expand...
I sat incredibly close to the court at the Portugal Open a few years ago, right on the service line, and realized I was terrible at line calls for pro-level serves since I could see in the clay where the ball had hit and it didn't match what I thought I saw as the ball was in flight.
At my club, watching the court next to me I often see serves played as good that are clearly a couple inches long, so even at 4.0 level service speeds it is often hard for the returner to get the call right due to the viewing angle.
 
D

Demented

Semi-Pro
I usually give it to the server if I think it was a close call. There's just no way to accurately call 90+ mph balls coming in directly at you. The odd thing for me is that I swear that half of my serves look out from my side of the court and yet they're almost always called in. Topspin first serves that dive hard are the worst, no one calls that **** right.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

clayqueen
Could this replace Hawkeye?
Replies
2
Views
504
Enga
Enga
clayqueen
Could this replace Hawkeye?
Replies
10
Views
2K
ALCARAZWON
A
R
In/Out tennis camera
Replies
30
Views
16K
Matlev
M
P
Test: Can In/out device be used as a cheap hawk eye?
Replies
8
Views
2K
VAJ
VAJ
6
My club won't let me bring in a ball machine!
Replies
18
Views
3K
TheDesertFox47
T
Top