Should my coaches have figured out the problem with my backhand?

I've struggled with my 2 handed backhand (and serve) for years now and have finally figured out how to fix my backhand (serve is still a problem). When I was growing up my backhand was solid, but somehow as an adult it's become a huge weakness and extremely inconsistent. I've spent a lot of money on lessons and if anything they made it worse. They correctly identified the problems with the shot, but not the cause of the problems My problems with the shot:

Not finishing the follow through
Pulling up
Opening up shoulders too soon
Swinging across my body
Losing balance
Not dropping the racket enough before impact

Here is the advice they gave me:

Swing through with the left arm and relax the right to let the left do the work
Turn your shoulders so your resting your chin on your shoulder
Exaggerate the follow through
Relax the arms
Bring your arms straight down to have the racket head below the ball

With this advice I struggled for years and started looking for advice online and finally put it together. By trying so hard to turn my shoulders and keep them turned I would lean forward so I could get my right arm past my stomach and pointed down. I'd also keep my body still and focus so hard on swinging the left arm that the stroke would be all arm and despite trying to relax my right arm it would still get in the way. Starting the stroke only with my arms also caused me to pull across my body and not finish the stroke.

What really helped was when I saw some youtube videos about having your arms connected with your body as well as the importance of weight transfer. They key though was that the racket drop and initial part of your swing happens while your transferring your weight forward using your legs and hips and it's not forced with your arms. Basically the power comes from legs to hips to shoulders and then to the arms. You don't start swinging with your arms.

As I've been hitting this new technique it just feels so much better and the results are obviously much improved as well. I've been hitting it this way with all the pieces together for a couple weeks in clinics, singles, and doubles and it's worked very well. I'm still thinking about all the elements and it's not second nature yet. How long will that take?

If the pros I've done private lessons with had figured out how to fix by backhand sooner I would have avoided injury, won a lot more matches, and had a lot more fun playing tennis. Should they have been able to figure out how to fix it so I wouldn't have to fix it myself with youtube videos?

The initial advice seems reasonable. But then what happened after that? Couldn't he see you were still struggling and did he attempt to modify/alter his advice to better fit your needs? Or did he just dogmatically stick to the original advice regardless of your results? Or did you dogmatically stick to the original advice regardless of your results?

it's impossible to say whether any "tennis malpractice" went on since we don't have all of the info. I'd like to think your pro would have seen that you were still having problems or that you would have spoken up, either of which should have resulted in re-examining the effectiveness of the advice.

S&V-not_dead_yet said:

The initial advice seems reasonable. But then what happened after that? Couldn't he see you were still struggling and did he attempt to modify/alter his advice to better fit your needs? Or did he just dogmatically stick to the original advice regardless of your results? Or did you dogmatically stick to the original advice regardless of your results?

it's impossible to say whether any "tennis malpractice" went on since we don't have all of the info. I'd like to think your pro would have seen that you were still having problems or that you would have spoken up, either of which should have resulted in re-examining the effectiveness of the advice.

Click to expand...

I made it pretty clear I wasn't happy with how things were going, but I thought the problem was I wasn't implementing the advice correctly. He kept saying I was opening up my shoulder too soon, wasn't finishing the shot, not dropping the racket, etc. So for years I've been trying to figure out how get all the pieces in place and have been pleading with him for additional tips. He also said I'm probably getting tight and that's why the shot isn't working. No advice about the fixes that I figured out with the online videos that actually helped.

EddieBrock said:

I made it pretty clear I wasn't happy with how things were going, but I thought the problem was I wasn't implementing the advice correctly. He kept saying I was opening up my shoulder too soon, wasn't finishing the shot, not dropping the racket, etc. So for years I've been trying to figure out how get all the pieces in place and have been pleading with him for additional tips. He also said I'm probably getting tight and that's why the shot isn't working. No advice about the fixes that I figured out with the online videos that actually helped.

Click to expand...

Well, in that case, I side with you. It sounds like he reached the limit of his ability to teach and, instead of coming up with alternative solutions, he just repeated his existing ones [sort of like, when someone doesn't understand English very well, instead of explaining it in simpler terms, I merely talk more loudly]. After a month or two of no progress, I would have sought out a 2nd opinion.

Communication is the hardest part, where you most often fail in coaching. Yet you may see, what’s wrong, the initial culprit may not be or become visible to the eye. You’re only seeing the result, not the root cause.

It goes both ways, if the student is not able to describe the discomfort or feelings on how the stroke feels bad in a way, the teacher understands and teacher cannot simplify the correcting orders in a manner the student understands, what to do and especially, when in the shot the advise is relevant, learning is halted.

The hardest thing to teach is the rythm, yet the most important. Turning shoulders too early sounds valid observation, but the question would be how to fix it. And it is not “turn later”.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

While every student I have worked with having problems with a two hand backhand, the solution was simple. Train them hitting a
forehand with their weak side arm. Hit the ball using the right arm for a forehand, hit the ball with the left arm for a forehand. They
usually pick up the feeling of the dominant arm for the backhand. Why? Simple! The dominate arm needs to be the left if your are
right-handed or the righthand if you are left-handed. Once your comfortable using your non-dominate side for a forehand and can
consistently get the ball over the net with some decent depth and pace, add the other hand to the grip and keep the same mechanics.
They are basically both forehands.

Aloha

It takes a lot of time and practice to master the basic fundamentals. I didn't read anything in your post about drilling your backhand. How are you going to improve it without drilling it? You should be drilling it hundreds of times a day if you want to master it. Matches, clinics and hitting are not where you develop strokes.

Sam Pras said:

It takes a lot of time and practice to master the basic fundamentals. I didn't read anything in your post about drilling your backhand. How are you going to improve it without drilling it? You should be drilling it hundreds of times a day if you want to master it. Matches, clinics and hitting are not where you develop strokes.

Click to expand...

I'm siding with him on this one. Aside from your lesson time trying to fix it with your instructor how many times a week away from your pro do you try to practice what he has told you or you have seen on YT? This isnt something thats going to change in a week or two, but it takes time. If it's something that hasn;'t changed within a month or more than I can agree and side that the coach is the issue if he hasn't been able to constantly try and identify something that is wrong

Sam Pras said:

It takes a lot of time and practice to master the basic fundamentals. I didn't read anything in your post about drilling your backhand. How are you going to improve it without drilling it? You should be drilling it hundreds of times a day if you want to master it. Matches, clinics and hitting are not where you develop strokes.

Click to expand...

But if he can't get it right when his coach is observing, he won't get it right without his coach and thus he'd be drilling the wrong technique.

I agree that drilling is crucial but it has to be the correct technique. It seems to me that the coach just wasn't able to impart the information to @EddieBrock [assuming the coach did indeed have the knowledge].

Notirouswithag said:

I'm siding with him on this one. Aside from your lesson time trying to fix it with your instructor how many times a week away from your pro do you try to practice what he has told you or you have seen on YT? This isnt something thats going to change in a week or two, but it takes time. If it's something that hasn;'t changed within a month or more than I can agree and side that the coach is the issue if he hasn't been able to constantly try and identify something that is wrong

Click to expand...

Basically the coach would want to just hit from the baseline (both forehands and backhands) and when I messed up a backhand I'd stop and tell him "that didn't feel right" or "why did that ball fall so short?" After hitting he'd also ask how things went and I'd tell him about the problems I mentioned in the OP. After I lost a match where my opponent just attacked my backhand I specified I wanted to focus only on backhands and had him feed balls and he gave the advice in the OP. The main advice was to keep my shoulders turned and after just about every mistake he'd say the cause was opening my shoulder too soon. Naturally turning my shoulder became my principal focus. The result was something even worse than Steve Johnson at around 1:38 here in that I would pull across my body. Around 3:45 in the same video about the racket laying back when you start rotating the hips was also a key component I was never taught at the coach told me to just turn the shoulders and force the racket down below the ball from the beginning.


I was playing tennis 3+ times a week and would practice it every chance I had, but as I was thinking about so many things I'd hit my shot differently each time.

Now that I'm hitting the ball well I'd definitely like to make the change to my technique permanent. What kinds of drills would help?

Throwing a 15 lbs gym ball should give you the idea of when to fire.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Pete Player said:

Throwing a 15 lbs gym ball should give you the idea of when to fire.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

try this next time your in the gy and focus more on when your releasing the medicine ball against the wall. Once you feel comfortable and are paying more attention when your releasing the ball go squared stance and open stance so you can get an idea of when your turning your shoulders and other body ques that may help your backhand

EddieBrock said:

I've struggled with my 2 handed backhand (and serve) for years now and have finally figured out how to fix my backhand (serve is still a problem). When I was growing up my backhand was solid, but somehow as an adult it's become a huge weakness and extremely inconsistent. I've spent a lot of money on lessons and if anything they made it worse. They correctly identified the problems with the shot, but not the cause of the problems My problems with the shot:

Not finishing the follow through
Pulling up
Opening up shoulders too soon
Swinging across my body
Losing balance
Not dropping the racket enough before impact

Here is the advice they gave me:

Swing through with the left arm and relax the right to let the left do the work
Turn your shoulders so your resting your chin on your shoulder
Exaggerate the follow through
Relax the arms
Bring your arms straight down to have the racket head below the ball

With this advice I struggled for years and started looking for advice online and finally put it together. By trying so hard to turn my shoulders and keep them turned I would lean forward so I could get my right arm past my stomach and pointed down. I'd also keep my body still and focus so hard on swinging the left arm that the stroke would be all arm and despite trying to relax my right arm it would still get in the way. Starting the stroke only with my arms also caused me to pull across my body and not finish the stroke.

What really helped was when I saw some youtube videos about having your arms connected with your body as well as the importance of weight transfer. They key though was that the racket drop and initial part of your swing happens while your transferring your weight forward using your legs and hips and it's not forced with your arms. Basically the power comes from legs to hips to shoulders and then to the arms. You don't start swinging with your arms.

As I've been hitting this new technique it just feels so much better and the results are obviously much improved as well. I've been hitting it this way with all the pieces together for a couple weeks in clinics, singles, and doubles and it's worked very well. I'm still thinking about all the elements and it's not second nature yet. How long will that take?

If the pros I've done private lessons with had figured out how to fix by backhand sooner I would have avoided injury, won a lot more matches, and had a lot more fun playing tennis. Should they have been able to figure out how to fix it so I wouldn't have to fix it myself with youtube videos?

Click to expand...

I have a hard time keeping my right hand in continental and sometimes it moves to eastern grip

My serve has improved from 3.5 to 4.0 in 6 months

EddieBrock said:

Basically the coach would want to just hit from the baseline (both forehands and backhands) and when I messed up a backhand I'd stop and tell him "that didn't feel right" or "why did that ball fall so short?" After hitting he'd also ask how things went and I'd tell him about the problems I mentioned in the OP. After I lost a match where my opponent just attacked my backhand I specified I wanted to focus only on backhands and had him feed balls and he gave the advice in the OP. The main advice was to keep my shoulders turned and after just about every mistake he'd say the cause was opening my shoulder too soon. Naturally turning my shoulder became my principal focus. The result was something even worse than Steve Johnson at around 1:38 here in that I would pull across my body. Around 3:45 in the same video about the racket laying back when you start rotating the hips was also a key component I was never taught at the coach told me to just turn the shoulders and force the racket down below the ball from the beginning.

I was playing tennis 3+ times a week and would practice it every chance I had, but as I was thinking about so many things I'd hit my shot differently each time.

Now that I'm hitting the ball well I'd definitely like to make the change to my technique permanent. What kinds of drills would help?

Click to expand...

Check what he claims in that video against the variations in pro 2hbhs. Most of it won't hold up against visual evidence. The major fallacy is the hands stay attached to the hips. Hands and arms usually travel with torso at the start of the unit turn. I think Donskoy is an example of arms and hands leading the unit turn. Regardless, by the backswing ... and the slot, the right arm and hand are past the shoulders and torso ... zero connection with hips. He shows Djokovic's backswing position, and says "see, hands basically still atached to hips". The hands are clearly in a position that have nothing to do with the hips. The arms and hands have moved past shoulders/torso.

Notirouswithag said:

try this next time your in the gy and focus more on when your releasing the medicine ball against the wall. Once you feel comfortable and are paying more attention when your releasing the ball go squared stance and open stance so you can get an idea of when your turning your shoulders and other body ques that may help your backhand

Click to expand...

Never tried the medicine ball. I have a question about it.

Assume closed stance, step to front foot 2hbh. To me, the critical timing elements have been:
- shoulder turn
- drop to slot
- step
- uncoil shoulder turn

It's that drop to slot that doesn't seem to match up very well with the medicine ball drill. It would match a straight back 2hbh like Radwanska better I would think. Perhaps you could drop the medicine ball to get closer to a drop 2hbh? I only bring it up because the drop isn't a trivial timing part ... at least it wasn't for me.

Edit: and "drop" is to generic. Some seem to drop from backswing, other more of a loop. Maybe one could match their 2hbh hand path with medicine ball.

EddieBrock said:

Now that I'm hitting the ball well I'd definitely like to make the change to my technique permanent. What kinds of drills would help?

Click to expand...

+1 for the medicine ball and shadow swings. Put a racquet or two into a racquet cover and practice shadow swings with that.

I saw the video posted above looks like it compares different types of shots eg a return of serve where the player has much less time to perform a hip turn.

ByeByePoly said:

Check what he claims in that video against the variations in pro 2hbhs. Most of it won't hold up against visual evidence. The major fallacy is the hands stay attached to the hips. Hands and arms usually travel with torso at the start of the unit turn. I think Donskoy is an example of arms and hands leading the unit turn. Regardless, by the backswing ... and the slot, the right arm and hand are past the shoulders and torso ... zero connection with hips. He shows Djokovic's backswing position, and says "see, hands basically still atached to hips". The hands are clearly in a position that have nothing to do with the hips. The arms and hands have moved past shoulders/torso.

Click to expand...

Exactly. I'm not copying him exactly, but just the idea of using your legs and hips to start the shot. It was really a combination of different videos and experimentation that helped vastly improve my backhand. I just thought the part where he mentioned "turn your shoulders" not working was relevant to my problem.

Notirouswithag said:

I'm siding with him on this one. Aside from your lesson time trying to fix it with your instructor how many times a week away from your pro do you try to practice what he has told you or you have seen on YT? This isnt something thats going to change in a week or two, but it takes time. If it's something that hasn;'t changed within a month or more than I can agree and side that the coach is the issue if he hasn't been able to constantly try and identify something that is wrong

Click to expand...

I'm a little confused by your post. You seem to be both agreeing and disagreeing with what I said.

Notirouswithag said:

"how many times a week away from your pro do you try to practice what he has told you"

Click to expand...

That depends. I like to say that you have to practice 10 times longer than you think you have to, So if you think you can develop a particular stroke by doing it 2000 times,it going to take you closer to 20,000 times and it could be a lot longer than that. My daughter practiced 5 days a week for years, hundreds of thousands of practice strokes and some players train twice as much as she does.

EddieBrock said:

Exactly. I'm not copying him exactly, but just the idea of using your legs and hips to start the shot. It was really a combination of different videos and experimentation that helped vastly improve my backhand. I just thought the part where he mentioned "turn your shoulders" not working was relevant to my problem.

Click to expand...

The only important thing is your 2hbh started working better. Great news ... my 2hbh brother. I just posted my recent ball machine videos, you can see where I stand at the 2+ year mark. I still don't use it much in my singles matches ... plan to next spring. I don't think about hips or core, probably shows in my stroke. I have recently been playing around with more extended arms on unit turn, not sure where I will settle.

I have seen that video before, and didn't like what I heard the first time. If his main point was more hip, that would be one thing. But he clearly made the point US pros have to much shoulder turn. Really? Again ... something easily checked by reviewing pro 2hbh video. That's all I do lately ... look at pro 2hbhs. Shoulder -> hip separation is the norm. Also ... the use of legs and hips are not indentical with open or closed stance. One has a step, and one doesn't.

Keep posting ... and sharing what works. We should have a 2hbh Band of Brothers thread.

Sam Pras said:

I'm a little confused by your post. You seem to be both agreeing and disagreeing with what I said.

That depends. I like to say that you have to practice 10 times longer than you think you have to, So if you think you can develop a particular stroke by doing it 2000 times,it going to take you closer to 20,000 times and it could be a lot longer than that. My daughter practiced 5 days a week for years, hundreds of thousands of practice strokes and some players train twice as much as she does.

Click to expand...

For most of us mere mortals, he takes a lot of reps to learn a stroke. I hit 7500+ 2hbh with the ball machine in 3 months. (3-5 times a week). At that point, I had a decent "ball machine" 2hbh ... 45+ out of 50 over net and inside the lines. Found out it wasn't even close to match ready. Low balls, high, on the run, ROS, etc. Even cc drills were more difficult than I expected. So "reps" needs context.

IMO (assuming you have access to ball machine)

- ball machine is fantastic to learn basic stroke
- you can wait to long to move to drills/hitting from ball machine, still hard to say exactly when. Mixing it in early probably better than my 3+ months ball machine only
- nothing finally gets you there except hitting the stroke in matches. Very hard to do when you are competitive and have established low UE strokes (my 1hbh slice).

Probably best not to hear the required rep # to get that new stroke. We would never start.

S&V-not_dead_yet said:

But if he can't get it right when his coach is observing, he won't get it right without his coach and thus he'd be drilling the wrong technique.

Click to expand...

No coach expects his student to get things right by the time the hour is up. As long as the pro is giving the correct advice, the student can work on it on his own. That's the point of practice. If the student practiced enough and still does not get it than you make a change.. but most people don't practice nearly enough and than wonder why they can't get it. It sounds to me like the OP had virtually no practice outside of an hour lesson, which is absurd if you're serious about learning. I could be wrong .

I agree that drilling is crucial but it has to be the correct technique.

Click to expand...

Right, but the correct technique is the result of drilling not the purpose of drilling. Know-one practices the correct technique until the correct technique is developed through practice. Once you master the fundamentals you continue to drill to maintain them. The coach plants the seed and the student should be able to get on court without the coach and practice what the coach told him to. He then checks in with the coach on his next lesson to see how he is doing and the coach makes adjustments and the student goes back out and practices for another week...and on and on. I understand that having a coach/teaching pro beside you on court 5 days a week while you practice would be the best way to do it but that's not realistic for most people.

I just suspect that the OP does not understand how much practice you have to put into it before you see real results. It took me 20,000 serves ( one hour a day five days a week for 5 months) until I no longer had to focus on the fundamentals of my serve. That's not to say that I don't have to remind myself to do things because I do but it took that many practice serves to develop my muscle memory or brain memory to the point of not having to think about everything I was doing.

ByeByePoly said:

The only important thing is your 2hbh started working better. Great news ... my 2hbh brother. I just posted my recent ball machine videos, you can see where I stand at the 2+ year mark. I still don't use it much in my singles matches ... plan to next spring. I don't think about hips or core, probably shows in my stroke. I have recently been playing around with more extended arms on unit turn, not sure where I will settle.

I have seen that video before, and didn't like what I heard the first time. If his main point was more hip, that would be one thing. But he clearly made the point US pros have to much shoulder turn. Really? Again ... something easily checked by reviewing pro 2hbh video. That's all I do lately ... look at pro 2hbhs. Shoulder -> hip separation is the norm. Also ... the use of legs and hips are not indentical with open or closed stance. One has a step, and one doesn't.

Keep posting ... and sharing what works. We should have a 2hbh Band of Brothers thread.

Click to expand...

I don't agree with that aspect of the video either. Basically I've taken the pieces from different videos that make sense to me. When I saw that video I realized my arms were disconnected from my body and I wasn't using my hips at all when I was focusing on swinging through with my left arm. If I start with my left leg and make sure to use my hips and transfer my weight into the ball I do much better and feel much more stable than trying to hit with just shoulder turn. As you said the main thing is it's working now. I'm just afraid I'm going to forget and go back to the old way. There's obviously also still room for improvement.

This video also helped me. Maybe there'll be something that helps you too. Look at about 1:47

When improving my forehand forward towards Fede-style, I took 100x10 reps of shadow swings in my living room a day.

Wthin a couple of weeks I had it dialed in and trusted the new motion in rallying on the court.

Yet right a way able to execute the shadow swing and occationally also onto the ball, the change in timing was a big factor and getting the hit more forward.

I did the same on my 1hbh and that also improved significantly, yet quite good already in the beginning.

The new release pattern needed slightly more space on both wings, and the fast and loose hand was flying the ball all over the place, when I started to do the shadows.

With two hands on the racket shadowswinging would’n give as much feedback on the rythm, than a medicine/ gym ball, which is the most important thing to hit succesfull groundies.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

EddieBrock said:

I don't agree with that aspect of the video either. Basically I've taken the pieces from different videos that make sense to me. When I saw that video I realized my arms were disconnected from my body and I wasn't using my hips at all when I was focusing on swinging through with my left arm. If I start with my left leg and make sure to use my hips and transfer my weight into the ball I do much better and feel much more stable than trying to hit with just shoulder turn. As you said the main thing is it's working now. I'm just afraid I'm going to forget and go back to the old way. There's obviously also still room for improvement.

This video also helped me. Maybe there'll be something that helps you too. Look at about 1:47

Click to expand...

Yes, good video. LOL ... they were doing what I speculated about with the medicine ball in the previous post to Notirouswithag. Throw the ball with the hand path you do in your 2hbh.

I don't think he was right about hurting yourself going straight to the slot. He called that "yanking". Radwanska and Venus do that.

IMO we use more hip muscle in the open stance 2hbh, and very little in the closed. I seem to hit mostly closed. On the open stance 2hbh, it's like the open stance FH. We coil over the back leg/hip ... and power the uncoil from that dame back/leg hip. On the closed stance, we step forward from that back leg, but we do not initate hip uncoil from the back hip. You can check that against pro video, or even when he hits closed stance drop feeds in this video. Also with the medicine ball. The weight comes off the back leg before hip rotation starts. What this means to me is with the closed stance 2hbh, I get linear power from the back (left) leg when I step forward (weight transfer to right/front leg). Then I land on the right leg and body rotates over front leg/hip. If you had a good hip turn before you stepped (or added it with the step) you have a longer hip rotation into the shot. This all adds to the shoulder turn uncoiling range.... which to me is the big key. How much shoulder uncoiling range into the shot... pretty much the opposite of the video claiming US pros turn their shoulders to much. So on closed stance it's over right hip at/after weight transfer. From there, I ask if I have right hip power to boost that rotation around the upper right leg (hip). I don't think very much. If I stand on that right leg and try to power rotation with the right hip ... not exactly a power source. Long way to get here ... but this is how I see closed stance 2hbhs. I time landing on the right leg with the firing of core and shoulder turn forward. The right leg has all the weight ... so a very solid foundation. The momentum of the step carries into the rotation around the right hip powered by core, shoulders, back, arms ... not much from hip muscles.

Again ... easy to verify watching pro closed stance 2hbh videos. Does the hips start rotating before weight transfer. When does shoulder turn start forward relative to step forward ... and the slot. When does rotation of right hip start relative to step to front leg.

When I hit my hardest closed stance 2hbh (fwiw ... not 100 mph ) it never feels like it's powered much from hip muscle. It feels like I got the timing of 1) shoulder turn ... both coiling and uncoiling 2) step 3) drop 4) rotation around right hip ... right. I do think you can take your full shoulder turn to early and mess up the timing/rhythm. If I get there ahead of the bounce it messes me up.

Sam Pras said:

No coach expects his student to get things right by the time the hour is up. As long as the pro is giving the correct advice, the student can work on it on his own. That's the point of practice. If the student practiced enough and still does not get it than you make a change.. but most people don't practice nearly enough and than wonder why they can't get it. It sounds to me like the OP had virtually no practice outside of an hour lesson, which is absurd if you're serious about learning. I could be wrong .



Right, but the correct technique is the result of drilling not the purpose of drilling. Know-one practices the correct technique until the correct technique is developed through practice. Once you master the fundamentals you continue to drill to maintain them. The coach plants the seed and the student should be able to get on court without the coach and practice what the coach told him to. He then checks in with the coach on his next lesson to see how he is doing and the coach makes adjustments and the student goes back out and practices for another week...and on and on. I understand that having a coach/teaching pro beside you on court 5 days a week while you practice would be the best way to do it but that's not realistic for most people.

I just suspect that the OP does not understand how much practice you have to put into it before you see real results. It took me 20,000 serves ( one hour a day five days a week for 5 months) until I no longer had to focus on the fundamentals of my serve. That's not to say that I don't have to remind myself to do things because I do but it took that many practice serves to develop my muscle memory or brain memory to the point of not having to think about everything I was doing.

Click to expand...

Where did you get that I had virtually no practice outside the lesson? I was playing at least 3 times a week up to 6 times. Whenever I played I wasn't having someone just feed me backhands. I would actually play with clinics, singles, doubles, and hitting with friends and I'd try and practice what I went over in the lesson.

Every single lesson was the same thing. I'd tell him I'm still having trouble with my backhand and would explain what happened and he'd tell me one of the things I've mentioned already or if it was a match he'd say I probably just got tight. Then he'd hit me some and tell me to turn my shoulders more, use my left arm, or whatever. I've been practicing like this for years and before I started practicing things I saw or read online I was getting nowhere. I thought it was simply a matter of relaxing or that I'd open my shoulders too soon when I was in certain situations so that if I really focused on keeping them closed I'd hit the shot better.

One I realized I was hitting off balance and it very little to do with my shoulders everything changed I finally started improving.

[deleted]

EddieBrock said:

Where did you get that I had virtually no practice outside the lesson? .

Click to expand...

From you. You said you played a few times a week. Playing or hitting around is not drilling Strokes. You need to drill each stroke thousands of time before they become reliable. So while you practice hitting around, that is not how you develop Strokes. You have to have somebody feed you 200 forehands and 200 back hands and 200 slices excetera. And you have to do that basically everyday if you hope to develop real solid Strokes.

Sam Pras said:

From you. You said you played a few times a week. Playing or hitting around is not drilling Strokes. You need to drill each stroke thousands of time before they become reliable. So while you practice hitting around, that is not how you develop Strokes. You have to have somebody feed you 200 forehands and 200 back hands and 200 slices excetera. And you have to do that basically everyday if you hope to develop real solid Strokes.

Click to expand...

I’m against feeding as in basket feeding. But you need some maybe few hundreds to thousand of those to get started, but more over you need variable training to master a technique.

In variable training the learning process continues after the lesson as brain still works subconsciously on the shots you made, while a block practice it may even regress.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I was arming my BH. Whipping it and slapping it as hard as I could.
I thought I was a big hitter.

My coach told me to slow down the swing to like 25%
Just concentrate on the brush, the weight transfer, and deep high depth and topspin.
Also, let the non-dom arm do the swing.
Clear the net by 6 feet.

Once I got the stroke, I hit hard again, but with a totally different stroke.
Not all arms.

Pete Player said:

I’m against feeding as in basket feeding.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Literally every advanced player in the world has been feed tens of thousands of balls. This is the way it's done. There is no other established way of developing strokes. This is tennis 101 for any player who has ever developed advanced strokes. This is why the ball machine was invented. This is why the tennis wall was invented.

How does one practice his or her serve? With a basket of balls! How else would you do it? You do the exact same thing with your other strokes except you need someone to hit or throw balls to you.

You must be new here.
Here at TT, people who take lessons are mocked as losers and suckers.
I am one of those in the minority who believes coaching and drilling has no substitute.

Raw ability is everything here. Michael Jordan is the best tennis player ever without picking up a racket.
Coaching is for suckers to part with their money, and watching videos is how everyone here is a 4.5

They have to make a living so they will fix your problems over many months(if not years), spread out over many lessons.

EddieBrock said:

I've struggled with my 2 handed backhand (and serve) for years now and have finally figured out how to fix my backhand (serve is still a problem). When I was growing up my backhand was solid, but somehow as an adult it's become a huge weakness and extremely inconsistent. I've spent a lot of money on lessons and if anything they made it worse. They correctly identified the problems with the shot, but not the cause of the problems My problems with the shot:

Not finishing the follow through
Pulling up
Opening up shoulders too soon
Swinging across my body
Losing balance
Not dropping the racket enough before impact

Here is the advice they gave me:

Swing through with the left arm and relax the right to let the left do the work
Turn your shoulders so your resting your chin on your shoulder
Exaggerate the follow through
Relax the arms
Bring your arms straight down to have the racket head below the ball

With this advice I struggled for years and started looking for advice online and finally put it together. By trying so hard to turn my shoulders and keep them turned I would lean forward so I could get my right arm past my stomach and pointed down. I'd also keep my body still and focus so hard on swinging the left arm that the stroke would be all arm and despite trying to relax my right arm it would still get in the way. Starting the stroke only with my arms also caused me to pull across my body and not finish the stroke.

What really helped was when I saw some youtube videos about having your arms connected with your body as well as the importance of weight transfer. They key though was that the racket drop and initial part of your swing happens while your transferring your weight forward using your legs and hips and it's not forced with your arms. Basically the power comes from legs to hips to shoulders and then to the arms. You don't start swinging with your arms.

As I've been hitting this new technique it just feels so much better and the results are obviously much improved as well. I've been hitting it this way with all the pieces together for a couple weeks in clinics, singles, and doubles and it's worked very well. I'm still thinking about all the elements and it's not second nature yet. How long will that take?

If the pros I've done private lessons with had figured out how to fix by backhand sooner I would have avoided injury, won a lot more matches, and had a lot more fun playing tennis. Should they have been able to figure out how to fix it so I wouldn't have to fix it myself with youtube videos?

Click to expand...

TimeToPlaySets said:

You must be new here.
Here at TT, people who take lessons are mocked as losers and suckers.
I am one of those in the minority who believes coaching and drilling has no substitute.

Raw ability is everything here. Michael Jordan is the best tennis player ever without picking up a racket.
Coaching is for suckers to part with their money, and watching videos is how everyone here is a 4.5

Click to expand...

Nah ... us DIY guys are called suckers also.

Sam Pras said:

Literally every advanced player in the world has been feed tens of thousands of balls. This is the way it's done. There is no other established way of developing strokes. This is tennis 101 for any player who has ever developed advanced strokes. This is why the ball machine was invented. This is why the tennis wall was invented.

How does one practice his or her serve? With a basket of balls! How else would you do it? You do the exact same thing with your other strokes except you need someone to hit or throw balls to you.

Click to expand...

How many excellent bucket players there are, but never can execute in a match? If there is not enough diversity in the feed, you only learn one thing.

Mastering a shot is understanding the basis and executing the same pattern the best you can in given situation is, what the game is about. Learn about variable training, if you havent already.

Hitting with ball machine is different, if you do it smart and take few steps back to the center after every shot. And vary, from shot to shot where and what kind of trajectory you wish to hit that’s fine. A sinker ball every now and then makes you adapt and adopt skills making different shots.

Groundie is an open skill and every shot in a rally is different from one another and a human being can never repeat a shot precisely the same.

Serve is a closed skill, there is nobody or nothing more to it, but you to result the outcome. But that too will develop faster and into more versatile, if you are not in urge to hit flats to the T serve after serve.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Pete. Slow down and think about what you are saying. You are talking about the game of tennis. Tennis is unique in that you have to develop the skills in order to play the game. In chess you don't need any specific physical skills to move the pieces on the board.
I am talking about developing tennis skills. The Strokes. The basic Foundation of tennis. That comes through repetition which comes through drilling your Strokes.

You don't have to believe me. This is how it's always been done and there's nothing in the foreseeable future that's going to change that.

You have to make the distinction between the game of tennis and the skills you need to play the game. You're speaking about the game of tennis, that's something different. I'm talking about the skills needed to play the game.

@Sam Pras, also skills develop faster, if the feed and skills training is by a variable regime, yet only practicing say fh.

The reason for variable training outmeasuring block training is the way brain works.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes

EddieBrock said:

I've struggled with my 2 handed backhand (and serve) for years now and have finally figured out how to fix my backhand (serve is still a problem). When I was growing up my backhand was solid, but somehow as an adult it's become a huge weakness and extremely inconsistent. I've spent a lot of money on lessons and if anything they made it worse. They correctly identified the problems with the shot, but not the cause of the problems My problems with the shot:

Not finishing the follow through
Pulling up
Opening up shoulders too soon
Swinging across my body
Losing balance
Not dropping the racket enough before impact

Here is the advice they gave me:

Swing through with the left arm and relax the right to let the left do the work
Turn your shoulders so your resting your chin on your shoulder
Exaggerate the follow through
Relax the arms
Bring your arms straight down to have the racket head below the ball

With this advice I struggled for years and started looking for advice online and finally put it together. By trying so hard to turn my shoulders and keep them turned I would lean forward so I could get my right arm past my stomach and pointed down. I'd also keep my body still and focus so hard on swinging the left arm that the stroke would be all arm and despite trying to relax my right arm it would still get in the way. Starting the stroke only with my arms also caused me to pull across my body and not finish the stroke.

What really helped was when I saw some youtube videos about having your arms connected with your body as well as the importance of weight transfer. They key though was that the racket drop and initial part of your swing happens while your transferring your weight forward using your legs and hips and it's not forced with your arms. Basically the power comes from legs to hips to shoulders and then to the arms. You don't start swinging with your arms.

As I've been hitting this new technique it just feels so much better and the results are obviously much improved as well. I've been hitting it this way with all the pieces together for a couple weeks in clinics, singles, and doubles and it's worked very well. I'm still thinking about all the elements and it's not second nature yet. How long will that take?

If the pros I've done private lessons with had figured out how to fix by backhand sooner I would have avoided injury, won a lot more matches, and had a lot more fun playing tennis. Should they have been able to figure out how to fix it so I wouldn't have to fix it myself with youtube videos?

Click to expand...

ByeByePoly said:

Never tried the medicine ball. I have a question about it.

Assume closed stance, step to front foot 2hbh. To me, the critical timing elements have been:
- shoulder turn
- drop to slot
- step
- uncoil shoulder turn

It's that drop to slot that doesn't seem to match up very well with the medicine ball drill. It would match a straight back 2hbh like Radwanska better I would think. Perhaps you could drop the medicine ball to get closer to a drop 2hbh? I only bring it up because the drop isn't a trivial timing part ... at least it wasn't for me.

Edit: and "drop" is to generic. Some seem to drop from backswing, other more of a loop. Maybe one could match their 2hbh hand path with medicine ball.

Click to expand...

For closed, semi-open or neutral stance 2HBH, I think there are only 2 phases:
1. prep - turn your shoulders and set your grips
2. swing - this includes take back, drop, forward swing and finishes at complete follow through

The take back, drop to slot, uncoil, forward swing and follow through all flow together and cannot be stepped through. You probably know this but just wanted to point it out. Sometimes you see a rigid player that appears to be counting

"I've struggled with my 2 handed backhand for years"

Every player struggles with all the strokes. The players who drill them consistently figure things out pretty quickly. If you haven't figured it out you are not drilling it enough or practicing the wrong things.

TennisCJC said:

For closed, semi-open or neutral stance 2HBH, I think there are only 2 phases:
1. prep - turn your shoulders and set your grips
2. swing - this includes take back, drop, forward swing and finishes at complete follow through

The take back, drop to slot, uncoil, forward swing and follow through all flow together and cannot be stepped through. You probably know this but just wanted to point it out. Sometimes you see a rigid player that appears to be counting

Click to expand...

Isn't that the truth ... rigid is the kiss of death in all tennis strokes. I have posted my latest 2hbh videos. You can be the judge "how rigid". If it's bad... just keep it to yourself.

I have found on closed stance 2hbhs, you have to include the timing of the step and weight transfer in the mix. The sequence I see watching Djokovic, Murray are:

1) prep
2) step
3) drop starts generally as front foot is hitting the ground (or during step) ... but full weight transfer hasn't happened yet
4) shoulder turn swing ... weight transfer has to be on front leg or weak tea swing

There are also variations. I see Sasha finishing shoulder turn as he steps.

At least that has been my experience. Smooth rhythm getting weight transfer to front leg ... and uncoiling fires right when full weight gets there.

TennisCJC said:

For closed, semi-open or neutral stance 2HBH, I think there are only 2 phases:
1. prep - turn your shoulders and set your grips
2. swing - this includes take back, drop, forward swing and finishes at complete follow through

The take back, drop to slot, uncoil, forward swing and follow through all flow together and cannot be stepped through. You probably know this but just wanted to point it out. Sometimes you see a rigid player that appears to be counting

Click to expand...

For me it seems to work best when I focus on weight transfer as the 2nd step and the swing happens on its own. Then I just finish the swing.

My problem with thinking about swinging is I tend to open up my shoulders too soon and hit the ball with just my arms. Not sure if other people make this mistake too, but it's something I've noticed about myself.

EddieBrock said:

For me it seems to work best when I focus on weight transfer as the 2nd step and the swing happens on its own. Then I just finish the swing.

My problem with thinking about swinging is I tend to open up my shoulders too soon and hit the ball with just my arms. Not sure if other people make this mistake too, but it's something I've noticed about myself.

Click to expand...

I guess by "opening shoulders too soon" you mean 1) you had a full shoulder turn ... but 2) started turning shoulders into the shot to soon ... before weight transfer.

I don't think that is what gets me. I think it's not having the full shoulder turn in the first place sometimes. When I go to swing after weight transfer, the arms have to make up for the abbreviated shoulder turn.

EddieBrock said:

For me it seems to work best when I focus on weight transfer as the 2nd step and the swing happens on its own. Then I just finish the swing.

My problem with thinking about swinging is I tend to open up my shoulders too soon and hit the ball with just my arms. Not sure if other people make this mistake too, but it's something I've noticed about myself.

Click to expand...

sounds reasonable to me. I've seen some coaches talk about triggering the forward swing on firing the back leg or back hip on a FH and that's the beginning of weight transfer on a FH. This is similar to what you are saying for your 2HBH. I think your queue is fundamentally sound. If you have a concept that helps, stick with it.