When the opponent gives up.

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 16, 2017

After it was 5-1, I could tell my opponent mentally gave up.
He seemed dejected and was rushing serves.

This was the first time I've experienced this.
I felt bad, but what are you going to do?
I just kept playing my game and took 2 sets for the win.

I wonder how pros feel when this happens.
At that level, I would feel really bad for someone who has invested everything into their game.

Any interesting experiences with this ?

Mongolmike · Dec 16, 2017

I think I shared this in another thread... tournament, really hot, opponent kept complaining about heat/humidity. Of course I was hot too, but wasn't real bothered by it, but I kept reinforcing my opponents discomfort... on change overs I'd comment on the heat, etc. He basically threw in the towel in the 2nd set. I did not feel bad about it. I was ready to play in the conditions, he wasn't and let the conditions get to him.

Why did your opponent give up? He realized he had no chance, even tho he won one game?

Matthew Lee · Dec 16, 2017

Just watch every other Kyrgios match

Ronaldo · Dec 16, 2017

Played a guy who is a counter-puncher. kept waiting for me to initiate a move. But even in the warm-ups he was missing. So hit every ball deep and up the middle. At the end of the match he slammed each ball over the fence and finally in a creek behind us. Never saw him agin. It happens

OrangePower · Dec 16, 2017

I have been on both ends of this one. I have had players mentally give up against me, and I admit that I have myself given up mentally.
For me it happened as a result of extreme frustration with myself. Basically being so disgusted with my level of play that all I wanted was to get off the court quickly.
In my defense, it's only happened less that a handful of times that I can remember, and in each case I was over it a few hours later and eager to get back on the court to redeem myself.
I don't think it happens often in the pros since they are, well, professionals. But yeah it happens with guys like Tomic and Kyrgios.

OnTheLine · Dec 16, 2017

There are people who give up in the first set if it is terribly lopsided like that ... others re-group and surprise you in the second set, coming out as a different player.

I have had it happen ... both ways.

I am willing to say that I myself have never given up ... extreme stubborn streak ... keep giving everything I have, even when it is obviously a lost cause. Probably not wise, maybe it would be better to end those matches a little faster.

Cindysphinx · Dec 16, 2017

I don't think I have ever given up in doubles. I have surely recognized, after trying several different tactics, that I have absolutely no chance. But I'm always looking for a weakness until the bitter end.

Singles, though. I have definitely given up in singles, and it happens in almost every singles match I play. It isn't anything anyone else would notice. It's stuff like, "I'm losing, I have no chance, it's love-40 second serve, this toss is poor but I'll just swing at it anyway."

I give up in singles because I don't like singles in the first place and don't want to be out there, so I cannot must the gumption to keep trying different things. I also give up because I hate the fact that players can get away with so many garbage shots in singles that would get them killed in doubles. Like, I hit a great serve, and all the opponent has to do is get it back deep and directional control doesn't matter so much. I get frustrated that I don't get the payoff I would get from a good shot in doubles, and then I start thinking it's not worth the effort to try to be aggressive.

I, uh, don't play singles.

rogerroger917 · Dec 16, 2017

Humble brag.

At your 3.5 level matches a slight difference in the way the shoes are tied can trigger a tank job. You really didn't have much to do with it.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 16, 2017

Maybe he was just having an off day. I can't say I've ever run into an opponent who gave up even before the 1st set was done.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 16, 2017

rogerroger917 said:
Humble brag.

At your 3.5 level matches a slight difference in the way the shoes are tied can trigger a tank job. You really didn't have much to do with it.

I don't buy the logic that everything that happens at 3.5 [or any level, higher or lower] is that random.

@schmke: any way of easily calculating variability by NTRP [ie is there more variation in expected outcome the lower the level?]?

schmke · Dec 17, 2017

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
I don't buy the logic that everything that happens at 3.5 [or any level, higher or lower] is that random.

@schmke: any way of easily calculating variability by NTRP [ie is there more variation in expected outcome the lower the level?]?

Are you interested in how varied the expected outcomes are? Or how varied the results are from the expected? I'd think the latter would give the most insight.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 17, 2017

schmke said:
Are you interested in how varied the expected outcomes are? Or how varied the results are from the expected? I'd think the latter would give the most insight.

The latter. If rr's hypothesis is correct, 3.5 should have random outcomes not correlated to expectation. If mine is correct, the higher the level, the smaller the variation. I would still expect correlation, just not as strong at the lower levels.

esgee48 · Dec 17, 2017

The wider (or larger) the population base, the wider the expected variation should be. Up thru 3.5, that's like 95-96% of the tennis playing public.

schmke · Dec 17, 2017

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
The latter. If rr's hypothesis is correct, 3.5 should have random outcomes not correlated to expectation. If mine is correct, the higher the level, the smaller the variation. I would still expect correlation, just not as strong at the lower levels.

I'm going to ignore 2.5s as there is a large number of self-rates and variability there in the first place it is pretty noisy. I'll also look at just men for now and just 18+/40+ matches played since 1/1/2017.

3.0 - 72% of matches won by the higher rated player/pair, the expected ratings gap 0.20 in the wins and -0.12 in the upsets

3.5 - 71% of matches won by the higher rated player/pair, the expected ratings gap 0.19 in the wins and -0.11 in the upsets

4.0 - 72% of matches won by the higher rated player/pair, the expected ratings gap 0.21 in the wins and -0.11 in the upsets

4.5 - 74% of matches won by the higher rated player/pair, the expected ratings gap 0.21 in the wins and -0.11 in the upsets

So, by this measure at least, it is quite consistent across levels, only 4.5 being a bit different on favored players/pairs winning, but not because the expecting ratings gap is really any larger.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 17, 2017

schmke said:
I'm going to ignore 2.5s as there is a large number of self-rates and variability there in the first place it is pretty noisy. I'll also look at just men for now and just 18+/40+ matches played since 1/1/2017.

3.0 - 72% of matches won by the higher rated player/pair, the expected ratings gap 0.20 in the wins and -0.12 in the upsets

3.5 - 71% of matches won by the higher rated player/pair, the expected ratings gap 0.19 in the wins and -0.11 in the upsets

4.0 - 72% of matches won by the higher rated player/pair, the expected ratings gap 0.21 in the wins and -0.11 in the upsets

4.5 - 74% of matches won by the higher rated player/pair, the expected ratings gap 0.21 in the wins and -0.11 in the upsets

So, by this measure at least, it is quite consistent across levels, only 4.5 being a bit different on favored players/pairs winning, but not because the expecting ratings gap is really any larger.

Thanks. So both rr and I are wrong but on different aspects.

AdrianC · Dec 18, 2017

Having started tennis late after a long cricket career ive learned to just play in my own bubble. When you have 11 opposition all sledging you, you have to learn to perform while mentally blocking them out. So in tennis i dont really care what the other person is doing, im in a battle with myself and the ball coming over the net.

samarai · Dec 18, 2017

how did the second set go. how do u know he gave up? maybe his level was just lower than yours.

Ronaldo · Dec 18, 2017

To paraphrase a great General, fatigue makes quitters of us all.

Sakkijarvi · Dec 18, 2017

I challenge myself to give up in singles matches all the time. It is a way to turn around a match going south IMO. When I have an off day, an overmatched, or nothing is working - i.e., I am not missing but the opponent is, say, taking my best shot - inside out forehand, and manhandling it with his 2HBH or he's a lefty - same result.

So in my mind I will accept losing the match, shedding feelings of tension. Then go for bigger and bigger shots, second serve aces. An 'eff it' approach that also happens to be fun as it is hitting-centric. And a fair number of times this "giving up" turns an impending LOSS into a WIN. And even when it doesn't, there is something to watching someone that was beating your azzz still lunge at and miss a big winner, second serve ace down the T ... still ripping some fur out in the fight.

Possum · Dec 19, 2017

I've been burned out twice, and walked off the court and stopped playing for a few months. The other time I walked off the court, a guy was beating me 6-1, 1-0 40 degrees out, I'm playing really well and he hooks me on two straight calls. So I look at my teammates and then look back at him and say "Thanks, I'm done".

Dartagnan64 · Dec 19, 2017

Sakkijarvi said:
I challenge myself to give up in singles matches all the time. It is a way to turn around a match going south IMO. When I have an off day, an overmatched, or nothing is working - i.e., I am not missing but the opponent is, say, taking my best shot - inside out forehand, and manhandling it with his 2HBH or he's a lefty - same result.

So in my mind I will accept losing the match, shedding feelings of tension. Then go for bigger and bigger shots, second serve aces. An 'eff it' approach that also happens to be fun as it is hitting-centric. And a fair number of times this "giving up" turns an impending LOSS into a WIN. And even when it doesn't, there is something to watching someone that was beating your azzz still lunge at and miss a big winner, second serve ace down the T ... still ripping some fur out in the fight.

I've definitely done this. I've said to myself, "Let's quit trying to win the match and start trying to hit the ball." Loosen everything up, focus on that fuzzy yellow target and just making the best swing I can. Not worrying about placement or strategy. Just hitting as many good balls with a loose swing as I can. I've turned many a 5-1 deficit into a 6-4 face saver.

RyanRF · Dec 19, 2017

I've lost enough sets after being up 5-1 to know that it's not over until it's over. Don't let your opponent's lack of effort/focus bring down your level. Finish out the match.

penpal · Dec 19, 2017

I played a guy years ago in a districts match. He won a close first set, and I was up a couple of early breaks in the second (3-0 or 4-1). It was hot, we were playing outside, and he made an obvious strategic decision to throw the set and save his energy for the 3rd set tiebreaker. I tried to keep wearing him down by hitting loopy shots from side to side, trying to entice him into rallies. He wasn't having any of it though. He fell for it for a couple of points, but as soon as he realized what I was doing he just started swinging for the fences and ending the points quickly.

Ronaldo · Dec 19, 2017

penpal said:
I played a guy years ago in a districts match. He won a close first set, and I was up a couple of early breaks in the second (3-0 or 4-1). It was hot, we were playing outside, and he made an obvious strategic decision to throw the set and save his energy for the 3rd set tiebreaker. I tried to keep wearing him down by hitting loopy shots from side to side, trying to entice him into rallies. He wasn't having any of it though. He fell for it for a couple of points, but as soon as he realized what I was doing he just started swinging for the fences and ending the points quickly.

Gotta know when to take a dive when verifiers may be lurking about.

hotasice · Dec 19, 2017

To be honest, none of us here are good enough to get mad while playing.

Unless the rumors are true and there are ATP/WTA pros trolling here and there?

OrangePower · Dec 19, 2017

penpal said:
I played a guy years ago in a districts match. He won a close first set, and I was up a couple of early breaks in the second (3-0 or 4-1). It was hot, we were playing outside, and he made an obvious strategic decision to throw the set and save his energy for the 3rd set tiebreaker. I tried to keep wearing him down by hitting loopy shots from side to side, trying to entice him into rallies. He wasn't having any of it though. He fell for it for a couple of points, but as soon as he realized what I was doing he just started swinging for the fences and ending the points quickly.

I've done that myself. Won long 1st set in a TB. Hot day and an opponent 20+ years younger than I am. Completely gassed. Decided to make minimal effort 2nd set and try recover. Got bageled. Won the match TB

Ronaldo · Dec 19, 2017

You gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em, eh?

Deleted member 23235 · Dec 20, 2017

TimeToPlaySets said:
After it was 5-1, I could tell my opponent mentally gave up.
He seemed dejected and was rushing serves.

This was the first time I've experienced this.
I felt bad, but what are you going to do?
I just kept playing my game and took 2 sets for the win.

I wonder how pros feel when this happens.
At that level, I would feel really bad for someone who has invested everything into their game.

Any interesting experiences with this ?

only feel bad for them *after* you beat them.
if you donate a few games because you feel bad, suddenly you've awakened a wounded animal that has a glimmer of hope.

arguably if it's a rec match (not tourney, usta, grudge match, etc...), and you just want the best from the person, which is generally a good attitude for our personal improvement...
them change your tactics, to your B, C, D, etc.. game
let them in.
if they are making alot of fh errors, only hit to their bh, or practice lobbing (essentially feed fh sitters); s&v; dink and lob; etc... give them the shot they like, and see if you can weather the storm; if they are tired, don't make them move - just hit it to them, and you run down everything.

if the guy/girl is just a chronic tanker, avoid them... can't expect to fundamentally change them.

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 20, 2017

nytennisaddict said:
only feel bad for them *after* you beat them.
if you donate a few games because you feel bad, suddenly you've awakened a wounded animal that has a glimmer of hope.

arguably if it's a rec match (not tourney, usta, grudge match, etc...), and you just want the best from the person, which is generally a good attitude for our personal improvement...
them change your tactics, to your B, C, D, etc.. game
let them in.
if they are making alot of fh errors, only hit to their bh, or practice lobbing (essentially feed fh sitters); s&v; dink and lob; etc... give them the shot they like, and see if you can weather the storm; if they are tired, don't make them move - just hit it to them, and you run down everything.

if the guy/girl is just a chronic tanker, avoid them... can't expect to fundamentally change them.

Agreed. I've blown a 5-1 lead on the past, so I never get comfortable. Only after it's like 6-1 4-0 do I let myself mix it up with junker shots. Or favor my backhand side for ROS

What I love about winning the first set in a rec match is no pressure to try different things and experiment.

I want to play an entire set where I only slice.

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 20, 2017

samarai · Dec 20, 2017

the way i look at it is if u are going to beat me, then just beat me and end i. If i am getting a beat down and know that im clearly outmatched
and the opponents decides to change strategy and and starts working on crappy shots to prolong the beat down then i'm probably gonna forfeit and walk off.
I not gonna stay around any longer than i have to for u to work on shots. U do not to feel bad for us,its recreational tennis, u win some u lose some.

Deleted member 23235 · Dec 20, 2017

TimeToPlaySets said:
Agreed. I've blown a 5-1 lead on the past, so I never get comfortable. Only after it's like 6-1 4-0 do I let myself mix it up with junker shots. Or favor my backhand side for ROS

What I love about winning the first set in a rec match is no pressure to try different things and experiment.

I want to play an entire set where I only slice.

presuming you beat this guy regularly
figure out a pattern of play that will keep the score much closer
of course this requires me to swallow my pride if i manage to lose with my "B, C, D" style.

RyanRF · Dec 20, 2017

samarai said:
the way i look at it is if u are going to beat me, then just beat me and end i. If i am getting a beat down and know that im clearly outmatched
and the opponents decides to change strategy and and starts working on crappy shots to prolong the beat down then i'm probably gonna forfeit and walk off.
I not gonna stay around any longer than i have to for u to work on shots. U do not to feel bad for us,its recreational tennis, u win some u lose some.

I agree with this too. If I'm getting beat badly by a better player, I would just want them to finish the match.

Down 1-5. Out of a mixture of boredom and pity the other guy starts hitting wild balls and throwing away points. Score becomes 4-5. Other guy decides he wants to win now and tightens up to take the final game....
Yea that would p.iss me off.

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 20, 2017

nytennisaddict said:
presuming you beat this guy regularly
figure out a pattern of play that will keep the score much closer
of course this requires me to swallow my pride if i manage to lose with my "B, C, D" style.

No this was a first time match up.
If we play again, I'll try the B game

Morch Us · Dec 20, 2017

I know that it can happen on a non-important recreational match, when someone just does not like playing with the opponent, and finds it as a waste of his time. The does not like part maybe because of

a) unmatched skill levels
b) unmatched styles of play (for example junkball vs powerrally)
c) unmatched seriousness (too much fistpump, extra aggressive line calls, extreme competitiveness, extreme eager to win .... vs ... take it easy recreational match attitude)
d) unmatched tennis etiquette
e) unmatched importance on some other random external factors (for example hygene or socialization or so)
etc ...
etc...

Sometimes it can also be because they exceeded their planned tennis time, and just want to get it over with. Or maybe because of they forgot something "todo" before they started the play, but then re-collected it during the play, and so just want to get it over with.

Frankly there can be tons of reasons, and I find that the propability of a mere match score of 5-1 alone, as the reason to give up is pretty small (even though it can happen).

TimeToPlaySets said:
my opponent mentally gave up.
He seemed dejected

Morch Us · Dec 20, 2017

By the way there is a huge risk in this, totally doing the reverse effect. 99.999999 % tennis players are too proud, and over-estimates their skills on what they can do. Many 4.0 folks after loosing to a 5.0, most probably would think he had his chances in the match, and was just having a bad day (rather than realizing that it was a washout).

1. The weaker player may actually realize what stronger player is doing (not putting his A game), and see it as an insult. (since he thinks he is in same level as the other guy).

2. The stronger player may actually end up loosing the match playing his B game (and successfully hiding what he was doing from weaker player). And once he loses, his pride may not let him admit the loss, and instead would say it loud that he was playing his B game to the weaker player. (Obviously the weaker player would see it as an excuse tandrum)

In both cases, there is a good chance that the weaker player may not like playing with the stronger player again.

So if you ever plan to do a B game, be sure to be brave enough to admit the loss (just as if you were playing your A game).

nytennisaddict said:
presuming you beat this guy regularly
figure out a pattern of play that will keep the score much closer
of course this requires me to swallow my pride if i manage to lose with my "B, C, D" style.

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 21, 2017

Giving up is mentally fragile and pathetic.
It's not about winning or losing, it's about putting together a decent showing against whomever you're playing.
When I've played 4.5 players, my goal is to get to a respectable score (6-2 or 6-3)
Just get one game.....Just get one game.....
Ok, good, now just get one more game.....one more game....
Each game is a new opportunity to get a game.

Deleted member 23235 · Dec 21, 2017

TimeToPlaySets said:
Giving up is mentally fragile and pathetic.
It's not about winning or losing, it's about putting together a decent showing against whomever you're playing.
When I've played 4.5 players, my goal is to get to a respectable score (6-2 or 6-3)
Just get one game.....Just get one game.....
Ok, good, now just get one more game.....one more game....
Each game is a new opportunity to get a game.

Amen!

Morch Us · Dec 21, 2017

Some may not think it as "giving up", instead getting it done "efficiently" (so that they can save time wrapping up, something they did not like, and go do something else). It is a self-centric world now.

Anyway, the right thing to do in any such case (of you have to stop early), would be just talk directly to the opponent, and stop without finishing it. But some folks just dont want to do it that way. I never "gave up" a match before. But I definitely had stopped playing in the middle (which is a default) against some extremely annoying tennis personalities before, when I feel like they don't deserve any more of my time.

Some others respond with a "fake injury" to stop and wrap it up.

Whichever way it is, it is probably annoying to someone who came ready for a long match. But it is a mutual investment of time, and if the level of enjoyment is substantially different, it is totally understandable that, one will pull out (or reduce) his investment (of time).

TimeToPlaySets said:
Giving up is mentally fragile and pathetic.

Mongolmike · Dec 21, 2017

TimeToPlaySets said:
Giving up is mentally fragile and pathetic.
It's not about winning or losing, it's about putting together a decent showing against whomever you're playing.
When I've played 4.5 players, my goal is to get to a respectable score (6-2 or 6-3)
Just get one game.....Just get one game.....
Ok, good, now just get one more game.....one more game....
Each game is a new opportunity to get a game.

Me too. When against a stronger player, my mantra is "just get one". Then if I get the one, then "just get one more". I don't really care if he/she is playing their "A" game or throwing in their "B" game vs me... I only focus on my effort.

On the flip side, I think it is human nature that if you clobber someone in the first set, that you tend to let down a little in the second.

I try not to let my effort lag, but I do things like use my 2nd serve kick serve exclusively, and work on hitting closer to the lines with the first serve. Or I might take more risk in trying to hit sharper angles in a crosscourt stroke at the risk of making more errors. I do not give away points or not chase every single shot down, and I'm not going to gift anything either.

Enga · Dec 21, 2017

If I were to come across something like that, I guess it's tough sometimes, but just try to put them out of their misery as soon as you can. Since tennis is just a game, there's no reason to feel sorry for someone. Even if they put in a lot of effort. Sometimes getting crushed is the only way people will get wake-up calls. You're doing them a favor in the long run. You'll learn more from your losses than you will ever learn from victories.

shamaho · Dec 21, 2017

TimeToPlaySets said:
After it was 5-1, I could tell my opponent mentally gave up.
He seemed dejected and was rushing serves.

This was the first time I've experienced this.
I felt bad, but what are you going to do?
I just kept playing my game and took 2 sets for the win.

I wonder how pros feel when this happens.
At that level, I would feel really bad for someone who has invested everything into their game.

Any interesting experiences with this ?

Whenever I get this from an opponent in a tournament, I sit tight keep up my end of the game and try not do anything to rouse him up from his stupor (like a loud C'mon or somethign like that)... if he has given up, it's his problem!
Actually I think Agassi told an account about an episode like that, where his opponent already had a resigned look and body language (Nalbaldian I think) and someone from his box shouted something provocative - that awoke all the fighting spirit in Nalbandian, he immediately changed his whole face and body language... Agassi knew he was in for fight again...

Now OTOH I have also felt like that many a time... it's when I've tried everything like Plan A, B and C and finally just give up... for me it's at that point when I've totally surrendered that my game starts to awake again and I do great level of play (under a given-up mental state - it's weird but true).

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 21, 2017

One variable is whether the opponent came into the match with certain expectations. When I play a 4.5, I expect to lose.

When the opponent gives up.

Legend

Hall of Fame

Professional

Bionic Poster

Legend

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

Talk Tennis Guru

Legend

Talk Tennis Guru

G.O.A.T.

Legend

Talk Tennis Guru

New User

Semi-Pro

Bionic Poster

Semi-Pro

Rookie

G.O.A.T.

Professional

Semi-Pro

Bionic Poster

Semi-Pro

Legend

Bionic Poster

Deleted member 23235

Guest

Legend

Legend

Semi-Pro

Deleted member 23235

Guest

Professional

Legend

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Legend

Deleted member 23235

Guest

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Professional

Legend

Similar threads