3rd best mens and 2nd best womens player of all time

2nd best female and 3rd best male player of all time

  • Gonzales

    Votes: 4 14.8%

  • Nadal

    Votes: 8 29.6%

  • Djokovic

    Votes: 9 33.3%

  • Sampras

    Votes: 1 3.7%

  • other (Borg, Tilden, Connors, etc...)

    Votes: 3 11.1%

  • Evert

    Votes: 1 3.7%

  • Court

    Votes: 6 22.2%

  • Navratilova

    Votes: 7 25.9%

  • Connolly

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • other (Lenglen, Wills, Venus, Gibson, Graf, etc...)

    Votes: 6 22.2%
  • Total voters
    27
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redrover

Rookie
Since Laver and Federer are generally regarded as the top 2 mens players of all time (in whatever order) and Serena the female GOAT who do you believe ranks 2nd all time for women and 3rd all time for men. My picks would be Court and Nadal. For me it was between them and Djokovic or Gonzales (men), and between Court and Evert (women).

Pick just 1 vote per gender.
 
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redrover

Rookie
Connolly is someone who is underrated these days. At her peak she was the most dominant ever, particularly as a teenager. People say Seles was the most dominant teenager ever, and while she was impressive, her dominance from 16-19 absolutely pales in comparision to Connolly, and Connolly faced a much tougher field too. Whereas Seles only faced a subpar mostly slumping Graf who lost 7 of 8 matches to Sabatini, a granny 36 year old Navratilova, and 14-15 year old pre pubescent Capriati, Connolly had to face peak Hart, peak Brough, peak Fry (a career slammer), rising Gibson, and slightly past her prime Du Pont. Hart at her all time peak in 51-54 was way better than the subpar Graf of 91-early 93, Brough those years was much better than granny Navratilova of the early 90s, Fry was much better than a pre prime Sanchez, and Gibson and Du Pont those years were atleast better than Sabatini and baby Capriati, so you can see her competition was MUCH tougher than early 90s Seles. And still won all 9 slams she played vs Seles who won 8 of 13 slams from 90-early 93 but never won a Wimbledon. Not to downplay Seles, just reflecting that Connolly as a teenager was that much better and more dominant, against much tougher competition, as everyone remembers how great and dominant Seles was as a teenager, probably 2nd most ever to only Connolly, so by showing how much better still Connolly was it would really put Connolly into even more visible perspective.

And unlike Seles whose total dominance never would have continued even without the stabbing there was no end in sight to Connolly's dominance which likely wouldnt hav ended until the early 60s atleast. Surely she wins 35 slams minimum and is the hands down GOAT today without her horse riding accident. As such I feel she probably should be atleast top 5 all time, maybe top 3, but most today dont rate her there, forgetting just how dominant she was.
 
R

redrover

Rookie
My personal list probably goes:

Men

1. Laver
2. Federer (although #1 and #2 is interchangeable)
------gap-------
3. Nadal
4. Gonzales (I had Gonzales at #3 but reading some of the arguments against him on this site the last 2 weeks, particularly from Phoenix, swayed me to reconsider my stance on his career)
5. Djokovic (will likely be atleast #3 very soon)
6. Borg
7. Sampras (I go back and forth on Borg vs Sampras all the time, ultimately I just find Borg dominating the polar opposites of clay and gras more impressive, and even if Sampras was #1 longer, Borg was more dominant at his 3-4 year peak than Sampras ever was apart from maybe 94).
8. Tilden (maybe should be higher, hard to evaluate him compared to the others. He could arguably be anywhere from 1 to 12. The fact he is a horrible person, pedophile and gay, I find hard not to subconsciously hold against him, despite that I try to evaluate just tennis).
------another big gap------
9. Connors
10. Lendl, Hoad, Rosewall, Vines, Kramer, or Budge (about a 6 way tie)

Women

1. Serena
2. Court
3. Connolly
------pretty big gap-----
4. Lenglen- Wills has a better record but people who played against both say Lenglen is better.
5. Wills Moody
6. Evert
7. Navratilova
8. Graf
------gap------
9. King
10. Henin, Venus, or Seles (about a 3 way tie)
 
R

redrover

Rookie
mtincoronel76 said:
Graf isnt a single option? Really?
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I wanted to include single options for more people but they only allow so many poll options. And I believe Court (more slams, harder competition), Wills and Lenglen (far more dominance), Connolly (insane unmatched teen level dominance, way more than even Seles as I pointed out) are all superior to her. Navratilova, Evert, Graf are all roughly even IMO, although I have Evert slighly higher than the other two.
 
mtincoronel76

mtincoronel76

Rookie
redrover said:
I wanted to include single options for more people but they only allow so many poll options. And I believe Court (more slams, harder competition), Wills and Lenglen (far more dominance), Connolly (insane unmatched teen level dominance, way more than even Seles as I pointed out) are all superior to her. Navratilova, Evert, Graf are all roughly even IMO, although I have Evert slighly higher than the other two.
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Ok respect your choice, but... Margaret Court harder competition tham Graf? Well ... Graf hasnt played in global Open Era? Hasnt played against Navratilova, Evert, Mandlikova, Sabatini, Seles, Arantxa, Hingis ...? About Conolly, sure was great wininng all at his short age, but against who? Doris Hart, Shirley Fry and stop. Its undoubted Graf had harder competition than Conolly AND Court. Connoly Won the Grand Slam, also Graf.

then, we have the following:

*Graf won the Golden Slam in a single year. Record.
*GRAF MADE 13 GS FINALS IN A ROW (between 1987 and 1990), Record.
*Graf won all the grand slam at least 4 times each. record.
*Graf was a year-end No. 1 WTA Ranking for 8 years, record.
*Graf was 7 years World Champion by ITF, record.
*Graf had 377 weeks as No. 1 by WTA Ranking, record.
*Graf was 186 weeks in a row as No. 1 by WTA ranking, record tied with Serena.
*Graf was awarded Best Tennis Player of the xx Century by Asociated Press, btw...

By accolades, Graf is the only that can really be compared to Serena. with the difference that Steffi earned what she earned in less time. Thats what im surprised not to see it as a single option. But its ok, I just wanted to take a stand. Tnks.
 
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redrover

Rookie
mtincoronel76 said:
Ok respect your choice, but... Margaret Court harder competition tham Graf? Well ... Graf hasnt played in global Open Era? Hasnt played against Navratilova, Evert, Mandlikova, Sabatini, Seles, Arantxa, Hingis ...? About Conolly, sure was great wininng all at his short age, but against who? Doris Hart, Shirley Fry and stop. Its undoubted Graf had harder competition than Conolly AND Court. Connoly Won the Grand Slam, also Graf.

then, we have the following:

*Graf won the Golden Slam in a single year. Record.
*GRAF MADE 13 GS FINALS IN A ROW (between 1987 and 1990), Record.
*Graf won all the grand slam at least 4 times each. record.
*Graf was a year-end No. 1 WTA Ranking for 8 years, record.
*Graf was 7 years World Champion by ITF, record. *Graf had 377 weeks as No. 1 by WTA Ranking, record.
*Graf was 186 weeks in a row as No. 1 by WTA ranking, record tied with Serena.
*Graf was awarded Best Tennis Player of the xx Century by Asociated Press, btw...

By accolades, Graf is the only that can really be compared to Serena. with the difference that Steffi earned what she earned in less time. Thats what im surprised not to see it as a single option. But its ok, I just wanted to take a stand. Tnks.
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Graf's biggest contemporary rival (considering the Seles stabbing) was Sanchez Vicario. Second biggest was Sabatini. I do not consider that formidable competition for a GOAT candidate by a long shot.

To some of the names you mentioned:

-Navratilova. 13 year age gap to Graf. To put into proper perspective that is larger than the age gap between Graf and Serena Wiliams. If you are going to count Navratilova as competition Graf, you may as well include Graf and Seles for the Williams sisters, which btw I do not do when evaluating the Williams sisters.

-Evert. 15 year age gap to Graf. Was already near retirement when Steffi rose to the top.

-Hingis. 12 year age gap to Graf. Hingis won her first slam after Graf had won her second last. Played all of 4 matches after Hingis's 16th birthday.

-Mandlikova. Was done as a top player already and soon to drop out of the top 10 for good, once Steffi won her first slam and rose to the top 3 for the first time. Only played 5 matches, all but maybe 2 of those when Hana was already in a severely weakened state. Even less of a rival than Navratilova, despite a lesser age gap.

No I dont count any of those as rivals to Graf. Navratilova you could maybe partly include for Graf, in the context of Martina in a somewhat weakened state and already clearly past her prime, but that is it.

Court's biggest contemporary rivals were Bueno and King, both who she played for many years with both in their mutual primes. Bueno's was cut short by illness, but was still considerably longer and closer to it than Navratilova or Hingis or Seles (due to the stabbing) ever were for Graf. Both who are significantly better players on any surface but clay than Sanchez Vicario. She also faced Ann Jones, Darlene Hard, Virginia Wade, all greats and multi slam champions, for many years in their primes. She faced Goolagong for a longer time period and played her more times (and much more often with both still somewhat in their primes) than Graf did any of Navratilova, Hingis, or Seles. And if you are going to even try to consider Navratilova or Hingis for Graf you would even have to the include Evert and Navratilova for Court, a similar generation gap overlapping.

Yes Court absolutely had harder competition than Graf, even with the Australian Open factor.
 
D

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
You have to standardize the equipment and surfaces before making a rating.

I rate only on grass, only with wood racquets....you need to standardize, otherwise there is no possibility of comparison.

No. 3 men---Laver

No. 2 women---Serena
 
mtincoronel76

mtincoronel76

Rookie
@redrover, IMHo of course, Nope. At all. First. Tennis global competition was after 1968, when players of whole world enter. Is inimaginable to see an german player like Graf playing at high level in the 60s, for example. Less world harder competition. It begins in Global Era. Second. if you considered Sabatini or Arantxa (or even Davenport)lower players than Bueno, is just because of Graf, who eclipses totally her oponents. Graf also won h2h against Seles. Whitout AO factor, isnt even clear that Court where better than BJK. And is not fault to Graf to won at 17 age over more old but also experienced Martina or Chrissy. The all played at max level, GF finals included. Graf himself played at 30 against the younger No1 Hingis in Roland Garros finals, and she wins.
 
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mtincoronel76

mtincoronel76

Rookie
Btw, I would like to know if the 5 votes that have the item "others" in this thread are for Graf, or someone voted for Lenglen, Wills, Venus or Althea Gibson ... because if they were for Graf, then she had more votes than Martina, Evert, Court and Connolly together ...
 
T

thrust

Legend
redrover said:
Connolly is someone who is underrated these days. At her peak she was the most dominant ever, particularly as a teenager. People say Seles was the most dominant teenager ever, and while she was impressive, her dominance from 16-19 absolutely pales in comparision to Connolly, and Connolly faced a much tougher field too. Whereas Seles only faced a subpar mostly slumping Graf who lost 7 of 8 matches to Sabatini, a granny 36 year old Navratilova, and 14-15 year old pre pubescent Capriati, Connolly had to face peak Hart, peak Brough, peak Fry (a career slammer), rising Gibson, and slightly past her prime Du Pont. Hart at her all time peak in 51-54 was way better than the subpar Graf of 91-early 93, Brough those years was much better than granny Navratilova of the early 90s, Fry was much better than a pre prime Sanchez, and Gibson and Du Pont those years were atleast better than Sabatini and baby Capriati, so you can see her competition was MUCH tougher than early 90s Seles. And still won all 9 slams she played vs Seles who won 8 of 13 slams from 90-early 93 but never won a Wimbledon. Not to downplay Seles, just reflecting that Connolly as a teenager was that much better and more dominant, against much tougher competition, as everyone remembers how great and dominant Seles was as a teenager, probably 2nd most ever to only Connolly, so by showing how much better still Connolly was it would really put Connolly into even more visible perspective.

And unlike Seles whose total dominance never would have continued even without the stabbing there was no end in sight to Connolly's dominance which likely wouldnt hav ended until the early 60s atleast. Surely she wins 35 slams minimum and is the hands down GOAT today without her horse riding accident. As such I feel she probably should be atleast top 5 all time, maybe top 3, but most today dont rate her there, forgetting just how dominant she was.
Click to expand...
Wills, Lenglen and Connolly were probably the most dominate. I think Wills played 23 slams and won 19. Lenglen lost one slam she entered, when ill and another by withdrawing.
 
T

thrust

Legend
redrover said:
I dont see how Gonzales can be that high when he has a major weakness on one surface (clay). Not Sampras level weakness but still a big weakness for a great. JMO
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Gonzalez lost 10-12 years of his prime on the pro tour, which he dominated from about 1952-61. Chances are that had he played the French those years he would have won 2 or more. The same with Rosewall at Wimbledon.
 
R

redrover

Rookie
thrust said:
Gonzalez lost 10-12 years of his prime on the pro tour, which he dominated from about 1952-61. Chances are that had he played the French those years he would have won 2 or more. The same with Rosewall at Wimbledon.
Click to expand...

I suppose that is true, but even with that I am still quite certain he is inferior to even guys like Federer or Djokovic on clay.
 
R

redrover

Rookie
thrust said:
Wills, Lenglen and Connolly were probably the most dominate. I think Wills played 23 slams and won 19. Lenglen lost one slam she entered, when ill and another by withdrawing.
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I agree, although I still credit Lenglen and Wills for their single losses at the U.S Open over that 7 year span, as I have read often enough there are real suspicions around both their retirements from many second hand witnesses. It is better to just rightly credit the victors in that case.
 
T

thrust

Legend
redrover said:
I agree, although I still credit Lenglen and Wills for their single losses at the U.S Open over that 7 year span, as I have read often enough there are real suspicions around both their retirements from many second hand witnesses. It is better to just rightly credit the victors in that case.
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Most believed that Wills retired because she was losing 3-0 in the final set and couldn't stand losing to Jacobs. Wills had to be talked out of competing in a MD match soon after her default. so as to not make it too obvious that there was no physical reason for her to retire. Lenglen was forced to play her first round match, very soon after sailing from France. She had a cold and had to play a top player, Molla Mallory in the first round. The next year at Wimbledon, Mallory won a total of 2 games against Lenglen in the final. In reality, I do not think it fair or logical to rank players of vastly different eras together.
 
T

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Top 10 greatest tennis players of all time.

Men
1. Federer
2. Laver
3. Gonzales
4. Nadal
5. Nole
=Sampras
7. Borg
8. Connors
9. Lendl
10. Agassi

Women
1. Graf
2. Court
= Serena
4. Navratilova
5. Evert
6. King
7. Connolly
8. Goolagong
9. Moody
10. Seles
 
T

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
mtincoronel76 said:
Ok respect your choice, but... Margaret Court harder competition tham Graf? Well ... Graf hasnt played in global Open Era? Hasnt played against Navratilova, Evert, Mandlikova, Sabatini, Seles, Arantxa, Hingis ...? About Conolly, sure was great wininng all at his short age, but against who? Doris Hart, Shirley Fry and stop. Its undoubted Graf had harder competition than Conolly AND Court. Connoly Won the Grand Slam, also Graf.

then, we have the following:

*Graf won the Golden Slam in a single year. Record.
*GRAF MADE 13 GS FINALS IN A ROW (between 1987 and 1990), Record.
*Graf won all the grand slam at least 4 times each. record.
*Graf was a year-end No. 1 WTA Ranking for 8 years, record.
*Graf was 7 years World Champion by ITF, record.
*Graf had 377 weeks as No. 1 by WTA Ranking, record.
*Graf was 186 weeks in a row as No. 1 by WTA ranking, record tied with Serena.
*Graf was awarded Best Tennis Player of the xx Century by Asociated Press, btw...

By accolades, Graf is the only that can really be compared to Serena. with the difference that Steffi earned what she earned in less time. Thats what im surprised not to see it as a single option. But its ok, I just wanted to take a stand. Tnks.
Click to expand...

Exactly why I believe Graf is still the greatest female tennis player of all time. Having a short career but still owns so many records, and have the most balanced achievements across all surfaces/conditions.
 
R

redrover

Rookie
TMF said:
Top 10 greatest tennis players of all time.

Men
1. Federer
2. Laver
3. Gonzales
4. Nadal
5. Nole
=Sampras
7. Borg
8. Connors
9. Lendl
10. Agassi

Women
1. Graf
2. Court
= Serena
4. Navratilova
5. Evert
6. King
7. Connolly
8. Goolagong
9. Moody
10. Seles
Click to expand...

ROTFL at Goolagong over Moody. Are you on drugs. A player who won 7 slams, 4 of them in Australia during the period nobody played there, over a 19 slam winner who won that despite not playing the Australian (Goolagong has a combined 3 French/Wimbledon/U.S Opens vs Moody's 19). Or even over Seles who got stabbed at 19 and still won more slams than Goolagong. Goolagong went 9 years between non Australian Open titles. The fact you put Goolagong that high shows your complete lack of tennis knowledge, atleast on womens tennis.

Goolagong doesnt even belong in the top 15 all time. Serena, Court, Evert, Navratilova, Wills, Lenglen, Connolly, King, Henin, Venus, Bueno, Gibson, Seles, Marble, Hingis are all clearly superior to her. Hart, Brough, Osborne Du Pont, Douglas Chambers, Betz, Sharapova should probably even rank higher than her, so I doubt she even makes the top 20.

Graf over Court and Serena when even with her biggest rival stabbed both still passed her in slams is also preposterous.
 
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T

thrust

Legend
TMF said:
Top 10 greatest tennis players of all time.

Men
1. Federer
2. Laver
3. Gonzales
4. Nadal
5. Nole
=Sampras
7. Borg
8. Connors
9. Lendl
10. Agassi

Women
1. Graf
2. Court
= Serena
4. Navratilova
5. Evert
6. King
7. Connolly
8. Goolagong
9. Moody
10. Seles
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If we are going by overall accomplishments, then IMO:
Laver- 11 official slams, 8 pro majors, 2 Calendar year grand slams, 200 or more tournament wins.
Rosewall- 8 official slams, 15 pro majors, 2 WCT titles, longevity GOAT, winning slams at 19 and 36-37, 133 tournament wins
Federer- 20 official slams, 6 WTF titles, 98 tournaments won
Nadal- 17 slams, 80 or more tournament wins, probably ATG clay court player, 33 Masters 1000 titles, more than any other
Djokovic- 14 slams, 70 tournament wins, 5 or 6 WTF titles, winner of all Masters 1000 events, 32 total
Sampras- 14 slams, 5 WTF titles, 6 consecutive YE at #1, 64 tournaments won
 
T

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
redrover said:
ROTFL at Goolagong over Moody. Are you on drugs. A player who won 7 slams, 4 of them in Australia during the period nobody played there, over a 19 slam winner who won that despite not playing the Australian (Goolagong has a combined 3 French/Wimbledon/U.S Opens vs Moody's 19). Or even over Seles who got stabbed at 19 and still won more slams than Goolagong. Goolagong went 9 years between non Australian Open titles. The fact you put Goolagong that high shows your complete lack of tennis knowledge, atleast on womens tennis.

Goolagong doesnt even belong in the top 15 all time. Serena, Court, Evert, Navratilova, Wills, Lenglen, Connolly, King, Henin, Venus, Bueno, Gibson, Seles, Marble, Hingis are all clearly superior to her. Hart, Brough, Osborne Du Pont, Douglas Chambers, Betz, Sharapova should probably even rank higher than her, so I doubt she even makes the top 20.

Graf over Court and Serena when even with her biggest rival stabbed both still passed her in slams is also preposterous.
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It's subjective and I've seen Goolagong ranks high in ATG by other tennis analyst. She won 68 singles titles, rose to No. 1 in the world in 1976, and reached the finals of 17 of the 21 Grand Slam events she entered from 1971 to 1977. That's pretty damn good.

Graf > Court/Serena base on their achievements and facts/numbers, not a desperate weak era nonsense by Serena fans which doesn't hold water.
 
T

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
thrust said:
If we are going by overall accomplishments, then IMO:
Laver- 11 official slams, 8 pro majors, 2 Calendar year grand slams, 200 or more tournament wins.
Rosewall- 8 official slams, 15 pro majors, 2 WCT titles, longevity GOAT, winning slams at 19 and 36-37, 133 tournament wins
Federer- 20 official slams, 6 WTF titles, 98 tournaments won
Nadal- 17 slams, 80 or more tournament wins, probably ATG clay court player, 33 Masters 1000 titles, more than any other
Djokovic- 14 slams, 70 tournament wins, 5 or 6 WTF titles, winner of all Masters 1000 events, 32 total
Sampras- 14 slams, 5 WTF titles, 6 consecutive YE at #1, 64 tournaments won
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The problem is most of Laver/Rosewall career were in the pre-open era. Competing in a full field is much different than a split-field that divided into amateur and pro. No way the pro majors are equivalent to the open era slam, let alone the amateur slams.
 
T

thrust

Legend
redrover said:
Graf's biggest contemporary rival (considering the Seles stabbing) was Sanchez Vicario. Second biggest was Sabatini. I do not consider that formidable competition for a GOAT candidate by a long shot.

To some of the names you mentioned:

-Navratilova. 13 year age gap to Graf. To put into proper perspective that is larger than the age gap between Graf and Serena Wiliams. If you are going to count Navratilova as competition Graf, you may as well include Graf and Seles for the Williams sisters, which btw I do not do when evaluating the Williams sisters.

-Evert. 15 year age gap to Graf. Was already near retirement when Steffi rose to the top.

-Hingis. 12 year age gap to Graf. Hingis won her first slam after Graf had won her second last. Played all of 4 matches after Hingis's 16th birthday.

-Mandlikova. Was done as a top player already and soon to drop out of the top 10 for good, once Steffi won her first slam and rose to the top 3 for the first time. Only played 5 matches, all but maybe 2 of those when Hana was already in a severely weakened state. Even less of a rival than Navratilova, despite a lesser age gap.

No I dont count any of those as rivals to Graf. Navratilova you could maybe partly include for Graf, in the context of Martina in a somewhat weakened state and already clearly past her prime, but that is it.

Court's biggest contemporary rivals were Bueno and King, both who she played for many years with both in their mutual primes. Bueno's was cut short by illness, but was still considerably longer and closer to it than Navratilova or Hingis or Seles (due to the stabbing) ever were for Graf. Both who are significantly better players on any surface but clay than Sanchez Vicario. She also faced Ann Jones, Darlene Hard, Virginia Wade, all greats and multi slam champions, for many years in their primes. She faced Goolagong for a longer time period and played her more times (and much more often with both still somewhat in their primes) than Graf did any of Navratilova, Hingis, or Seles. And if you are going to even try to consider Navratilova or Hingis for Graf you would even have to the include Evert and Navratilova for Court, a similar generation gap overlapping.

Yes Court absolutely had harder competition than Graf, even with the Australian Open factor.
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Correct, once Seles was stabbed, Graf had very weak competition. ASV was tough, but other than her, the others were mentally weak or inconsistent players. Evert was well past her peak when Graf reached hers. Navratilova was just past her peak.
 
T

thrust

Legend
TMF said:
The problem is most of Laver/Rosewall career were in the pre-open era. Competing in a full field is much different than a split-field that divided into amateur and pro. No way the pro majors are equivalent to the open era slam, let alone the amateur slams.
Click to expand...
Which is why players of vastly different eras can not be ranked together. Eras should be separated by a certain period of ten years , at least.
 
R

redrover

Rookie
TMF said:
It's subjective and I've seen Goolagong ranks high in ATG by other tennis analyst. She won 68 singles titles, rose to No. 1 in the world in 1976, and reached the finals of 17 of the 21 Grand Slam events she entered from 1971 to 1977. That's pretty damn good.

Graf > Court/Serena base on their achievements and facts/numbers, not a desperate weak era nonsense by Serena fans which doesn't hold water.
Click to expand...

Court has more singles slams and more singles tournaments than both Graf and Serena, so if it were based just on achievements Court would be tops. Again you know nothing, and have no knowledge on tennis, atleast womens tennis. I already knew that about you but your ranking Goolagong above Wills and Seles really confirmed it.

Serena meanwhile is ahead or even with Graf in most departments, particularly the more important ones. More slams, same number of YEC titles, more Olympics Golds/ medals, more Miami titles, more Premier Mandatory and Premier titles (the lowest level of semi relevant tournament for an all time great), every existing longevity stat, and doubles achievements.. Graf is only ahead in time at #1, when had the same ranking system that is in place since 2000 been in place in the 90s she would be behind even here, and the even more utterly meaningless total tournament wins stat which is far less important than all the things I pointed out Serena being above in. And the 88 Grand slam which is huge of course, but that is it.

Court is ahead of Graf in every single thing, even the Grand Slam was also achieved by Court. You dont speak fact, merely heavily biased Graf fanatic nonsense.

You will not find a single tennis expert who rates Goolagong the 8th best female tennis player of all time. Show me even one, then we can talk. You wont as like most of your opinions it is biased and uninformed nonsense in the fantasy world you appear to live in, atleast regarding womens tennis.

Your mens rankings were atleast semi decent, debateable, but nothing atrocious like your female rankings.
 
R

redrover

Rookie
This is a REAL all time ranking list where people should belong, as opposed to the nonsense of the above poster

Women:

1. Serena
2. Court
3. Evert
4. Wills Moody
5. Navratilova
6. Graf
7. Connolly (arguably should be higher)
8. Lenglen (arguably should be higher)
9. King
10. Venus/Henin/Seles (basically a 3 way tie)

as for where Goolagong would rank

13. Gibson
14. Marble
15. Hingis
16. Bueno
17. Brough/Hart/Du Pont (basically another 3 way tie)
19. Bentz
20. Douglas Chambers

After this would come people like Sharapova, Goolagong, Davenport, Clijsters, Fry. So Goolagong belongs somewhere from 21st to 25th, 8th, ROTFL!

As for the men a good list would go:

1. Laver
2. Federer
3. Nadal
4. Gonzales

Although 1 vs 2 is a toss up and 3 vs 4 is basically a toss up too

5. Djokovic
6. Bjorg
7. Sampras
8. Rosewall
9. Kramer
10. Lendl/Connors
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
TMF said:
Top 10 greatest tennis players of all time.

Men
1. Federer
2. Laver
3. Gonzales
4. Nadal
5. Nole
=Sampras
7. Borg
8. Connors
9. Lendl
10. Agassi

Women
1. Graf
2. Court
= Serena
4. Navratilova
5. Evert
6. King
7. Connolly
8. Goolagong
9. Moody
10. Seles
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Laver and Gonzalez in the top 3 but Rosewall outside the top 10 is nonsensical. The difference between Rod/Pancho and Kenny is way smaller than the difference between Sampras and Agassi...
 
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redrover

Rookie
NatF said:
Laver and Gonzalez in the top 3 but Rosewall outside the top 10 is nonsensical. The difference between Rod/Pancho and Kenny is way smaller than the difference between Sampras and Agassi...
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Rosewall is so difficult to rank since in pure achievements he could rank top 3, but his peers opinions on his abilities are fairly low. Some of his peers even rank him below Bobby Riggs (lol). Still I agree with you. I think my ranking of Rosewall at 8th might even be a bit low but it was hard to find a proper spot for everyone.

Agassi wouldnt even make my top 15 I dont think. In addition to my top 11 I listed McEnroe, Budge, Vines, should all be above him, so the highest he could possibly rank would be 15th. Then there are others like Hoad, Perry, Sedgeman, Cochet, LaCoste who you could all make arguments to rank higher than Agassi. Honestly if it werent for his Career Slam he would be below Wilander, Becker, Newcombe, Edberg even. Of course the reality is he has the Career Slam so he has to be above those atleast.

TMF lacks knowledge on the sport, so it is not surprising his rankings would make no sense. You didnt comment on his womens list but isnt Goolagong over Wills Moody or even Seles hilarious?
 
T

thrust

Legend
One of Rosewall's peers or older players who had ranked him quite low, in later years said the fact that Ken won so much for so long, perhaps he had always been underrated.
 
T

thrust

Legend
redrover said:
Was that Jack Kramer or even Rod Laver by chance?
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Not Laver, for sure, perhaps Kramer? Sorry, I just can't remember. Ken was only 5-7 so did not have a power game, serve, or killer shots. Still,he usually managed to beat guys much bigger and stronger than he was, which I think the big guys resented. Ken's major skills were his movement, stamina, anticipation, reflexes, tactics, great backhand, net game, volleys, lobs and usually mental toughness
 
mtincoronel76

mtincoronel76

Rookie
redrover said:
Court has more singles slams and more singles tournaments than both Graf and Serena, so if it were based just on achievements Court would be tops. Again you know nothing, and have no knowledge on tennis, atleast womens tennis. I already knew that about you but your ranking Goolagong above Wills and Seles really confirmed it.

Serena meanwhile is ahead or even with Graf in most departments, particularly the more important ones. More slams, same number of YEC titles, more Olympics Golds/ medals, more Miami titles, more Premier Mandatory and Premier titles (the lowest level of semi relevant tournament for an all time great), every existing longevity stat, and doubles achievements.. Graf is only ahead in time at #1, when had the same ranking system that is in place since 2000 been in place in the 90s she would be behind even here, and the even more utterly meaningless total tournament wins stat which is far less important than all the things I pointed out Serena being above in. And the 88 Grand slam which is huge of course, but that is it.

Court is ahead of Graf in every single thing, even the Grand Slam was also achieved by Court. You dont speak fact, merely heavily biased Graf fanatic nonsense.

You will not find a single tennis expert who rates Goolagong the 8th best female tennis player of all time. Show me even one, then we can talk. You wont as like most of your opinions it is biased and uninformed nonsense in the fantasy world you appear to live in, atleast regarding womens tennis.

Your mens rankings were atleast semi decent, debateable, but nothing atrocious like your female rankings.
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Graf will destroy Court anytime
 
R

redrover

Rookie
mtincoronel76 said:
Graf will destroy Court anytime
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By that logic one could say Serena would destroy Graf anytime, and not even bother with stats. The fact is in stats Court is clearly ahead of Graf in every area, heck even ahead of Serena in almost every area. On stats alone she is #1, so she should be atleast top 3 all time, inspite of peoples biases against her.
 
R

redrover

Rookie
mtincoronel76 said:
First: Graf and Serena are 1-1 in h2h, so, Serena wouldnt destroys Steffi anytime since she has already loss to her.
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Yeah she is 1-1 vs baby Serena who was half the player she would be several years later. Both matches going to 7-5 in the 3rd. The 2nd match Graf hitting only 11 winners to 35 for Serena. Super impressive.
 
mtincoronel76

mtincoronel76

Rookie
redrover said:
Yeah she is 1-1 vs baby Serena who was half the player she would be several years later. Both matches going to 7-5 in the 3rd. The 2nd match Graf hitting only 11 winners to 35 for Serena. Super impressive.
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yes. in the same way that baby Graf (half of player she would be?) defeated Navratilova and Evert in several GS Finals. incredible to have to hear here say that Navratilova (29 years old, prime level) was very older when she lost with Graf , and now Serena was very young when she lost with Graf (30 years old, back of injuries) too. The same argument is used with different value as appropriate, always to the detriment of Graf. BIASED. The truth is that Graf won them all. baby or old
 
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redrover

Rookie
mtincoronel76 said:
yes. in the same way that baby Graf (half of player she would be?) defeated Navratilova and Evert in several GS Finals. incredible to have to hear here say that Navratilova (29 years old, prime level) was very older when she lost with Graf , and now Serena was very young when she lost with Graf (30 years old, back of injuries) too. The same argument is used with different value as appropriate, always to the detriment of Graf. BIASED. The truth is that Graf won them all. baby or old
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LOL first off Serena was 17 in her matches with Graf. Graf did not win her slam until 18, and 18 year old Graf was CRUSHED by 31 year old Navratilova (older than Graf was in 99) in 2 slam finals, and barely won in a 3rd on Martina's worst surface.

Secondly 29 when Graf was struggling badly with and losing to baby Serena. That is not old, it is younger than Navratilova was when she was still regularly beating Graf still, and much younger than Serena was still dominating the womens game.

Thirdly Serena's prime started later than Graf, to be expected given that she played no junior tennis and Graf joined the WTA tour at 13. Just like Serena's prime and career lasted way later than Graf's, and despite the later start was still longer in all regards. Despite all that 17 year old Serena was still doing better vs Graf than Graf at 17 was doing vs Navratilova at the same or older age.

Your arguments are all balogna, and you are just dumping on Court since you hate her and dont want to give her credit, like most people. Probably a f&g loving liberal who despises her just for being a homophobe, which has nothing to do with her tennis.

Your ridiculous mens all time clay rankings show your complete lack of knowledge on tennis though, just like TMF.
 
mtincoronel76

mtincoronel76

Rookie
@redrover LOL? Hahaha ...
Baby Graf at 17 age beats prime Martina 29 age and World No.1 in 1986 German Open. TRUE.

Baby Graf at 18 age beats prime Martina 30 years old and World No. 1 in Roland Garros 1987. TRUE.

Now you can said what you like about my true arguments. Just look at the rivals had Court in at least 7 Australia Opens she won without top players.... balogna??? ... hahaha take it easy ... whit all due respect, i choose to think the same whay that Asociated Press pannel of specialists who awarded Graf as the best tennis female player of XX Century in 1999 or that Tennis Chanell who awarded Graf as the best Tennis Player of History in 2012. But you sure know more than they ...
 
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mtincoronel76

mtincoronel76

Rookie
@redrover Your ridiculous mens all time clay rankings show your complete lack of knowledge on tennis though, just like TMF.
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Again ... hahahaha ... i just posted a Simon Briggs (The Telegraph journalist) ranking (not mine), and invited people to add players. Repeat, i didnt make these ranking. Read well!! Deal whit Simon Briggs, you genious!!! You genious, that put Graf in a group of players totally inferior to them instead of putting it alone as it should be ... in this tennis forum there are still threads that argue between Serena and Graf, and you, genius, put her in a discard group ... And also what does this Briggs-male court-ranking have to do with it? Please ... your nervousness and intolerance makes your attacks ridiculous.
 
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R

redrover

Rookie
mtincoronel76 said:
@redrover LOL? Hahaha ...
Baby Graf at 17 age beats prime Martina 29 age and World No.1 in 1986 German Open. TRUE.

Baby Graf at 18 age beats prime Martina 30 years old and World No. 1 in Roland Garros 1987. TRUE.

Now you can said what you like about my true arguments. Just look at the rivals had Court in at least 7 Australia Opens she won without top players.... balogna??? ... hahaha take it easy ... whit all due respect, i choose to think the same whay that Asociated Press pannel of specialists who awarded Graf as the best tennis female player of XX Century in 1999 or that Tennis Chanell who awarded Graf as the best Tennis Player of History in 2012. But you sure know more than they ...
Click to expand...

18 year old Graf loses to 31 year old Martina 7-5, 6-3 in a pretty easy match in the 87 Wimbledon final. TRUE
18 year old Graf loses to 31 year old Martina even more easily 7-6, 6-1 in an even easier match in the 87 U.S Open final. TRUE.

Barely winning the French Open final on Martina's worst surface so 30/31 year old Martina had the CLEAR edge over 18 year old Graf in head to head confronations, particularly in big matches. While 17 year old Serena already was equal or had the edge over 29 year old Graf in head to head confratations.

The Associated Press specialists picked Graf when Serena was only on 13 slams, you know full well they, like pretty much everyone else, would pick Serena today.

Now back under your bridge troll.
 
R

redrover

Rookie
mtincoronel76 said:
Chris Evert, biggest Martina rival: "Graf is the best all-court player ever"

Billie Jean King, biggest Court rival: "Graf is the best tennis player of all time".


deal with them, I retire ...;)
Click to expand...

They said that many years ago. Today both say Serena today repeatedly, Chris in fact does it when commentating for ESPN at almost every slam so everyone here who actually watches tennis (unlike you) will vouch I am correct on this, and now both are back to putting Martina over Steffi as well, so they dont even have Steffi 2nd anymore.

Just stop posting already and making a bigger fool of yourself clown.
 
mtincoronel76

mtincoronel76

Rookie
redrover said:
18 year old Graf loses to 31 year old Martina 7-5, 6-3 in a pretty easy match in the 87 Wimbledon final. TRUE
18 year old Graf loses to 31 year old Martina even more easily 7-6, 6-1 in an even easier match in the 87 U.S Open final. TRUE.

Barely winning the French Open final on Martina's worst surface so 30/31 year old Martina had the CLEAR edge over 18 year old Graf in head to head confronations, particularly in big matches. While 17 year old Serena already had the edge over 29 year old Graf in head to head confratations.

The Associated Press specialists picked Graf when Serena was only on 13 slams, you know full well they, like pretty much everyone else, would pick Serena today.

Now back under your bridge troll.
Click to expand...
The Asosiated Press Panel of specialist picked Graf when Serena had 13 GS??? In 1999???? Really??? Ha ha ha ... funny... Isnt about Serena ... you already declared him as the one ... its about the rest. Graf is declared the best player of Century XX by majority and you put her in a discard group... whos the troll??? The clown?? Biased and disrespectful. Bad match. luck!!
 
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R

redrover

Rookie
mtincoronel76 said:
Again ... hahahaha ... i just posted a Simon Briggs (The Telegraph journalist)
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The fact you dont know Simon Briggs is a clown tennis writer who has been ridiculed and mocked many times over on this site (and many other places) and that you are so clueless on the sport you had to copy some random writers rankings, since you probably couldnt even think of enough names to come up with your own otherwise, already says it all. :laughing: Keep up the comedy act clown, it is great, a free farce performance at the circus.
 
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