2011 Rome Mens Final- Has Rafael Nadals Reign at the Top Ended?

[rafabull]

After Novak Djokovic's shocking win over World Number One Rafael Nadal at the 2011 Rome Finals, everybody must be starting to wonder if Nadal streak of total dominance has ended forever. Can Nadal get revenge on the Serb in Paris or will Djokovic take his 3rd grand slam title? Please share your opinions and thoughts.

P.S.- After that last point it has become abundantly clear that Novak Djokovic is the luckiest player alive.

 

[Wolland]

After Novak Djokovic's shocking win over World Number One Rafael Nadal at the 2011 Rome Finals, everybody must be starting to wonder if Nadal streak of total dominance has ended forever. Can Nadal get revenge on the Serb in Paris or will Djokovic take his 3rd grand slam title? Please share your opinions and thoughts.

P.S.- After that last point it has become abundantly clear that Novak Djokovic is the luckiest player alive.

LMAO

Do I sense I bit of jealousy on your part?

 

[Bhagi Katbamna]

There really was no luck. That was a comprehensive beatdown in all aspects of the game. I am a huge Nadal fan and I don't like Djoker that much but he was the much better player today. There was no point in the match that I felt that Nadal was hurting Djoker with any particular shot.

 

[Satch]

After Novak Djokovic's shocking win over World Number One Rafael Nadal at the 2011 Rome Finals, everybody must be starting to wonder if Nadal streak of total dominance has ended forever. Can Nadal get revenge on the Serb in Paris or will Djokovic take his 3rd grand slam title? Please share your opinions and thoughts.

P.S.- After that last point it has become abundantly clear that Novak Djokovic is the luckiest player alive.

interesting, from mine angle it looked like Rafa is the lucky guy to hit the net 2 times and not to lose a point

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

2011 Rome Mens Final- Has Rafael Nadals Reign at the Top Ended?

hopefully yes !

 

[Netspirit]

Funnily nobody is talking about that "hit to backhand, hit to backhand" abuse from Djokovic.

This was his gameplan, and it worked.

 

[rafabull]

This thread wasn't made to discuss Novaks luck. It's to respond to the title question. The "P.S." was a bit of a joke anyways. Way to overreact people.

 

[Double_Fault]

Nadal was never at the top to begin with.

 

[rafabull]

Nadal was never at the top to begin with.

Usually when a player is #1 in the world it means there at the top...

 

[Don Felder]

Said it after last week's match and I'll say it again. Nadal's play this year does NOT pass the eye test. He's putting up results and beating everyone not named Djokovic, but if you watch his matches, his shots and movement are not where they were the last two years. Plus, the mental edge does not seem to quite be there anymore, as seen in his more frequent "jittery" double faults and his much less frequent freakish on the run winners at clutch points in the match.

I think it's the first sign of wear and tear/slowdown for him. He's nearly a 10-year tour vet at this point, and it only makes sense, especially when you consider his physical style.

He'll still be winning titles the next few years, but right now this looks pretty close to what we saw happen with Federer starting in '08. Just a gradual slowdown, a gradual loss of invincibility, and he just won't quite be the force he was.

 

[namelessone]

Said it after last week's match and I'll say it again. Nadal's play this year does NOT pass the eye test. He's putting up results and beating everyone not named Djokovic, but if you watch his matches, his shots and movement are not where they were the last two years. Plus, the mental edge does not seem to quite be there anymore, as seen in his more frequent "jittery" double faults and his much less frequent freakish on the run winners at clutch points in the match.

I think it's the first sign of wear and tear/slowdown for him. He's nearly a 10-year tour vet at this point, and it only makes sense, especially when you consider his physical style.

He'll still be winning titles the next few years, but right now this looks pretty close to what we saw happen with Federer starting in '08. Just a gradual slowdown, a gradual loss of invincibility, and he just won't quite be the force he was.

Finally an honest assesment.

 

[rafabull]

Said it after last week's match and I'll say it again. Nadal's play this year does NOT pass the eye test. He's putting up results and beating everyone not named Djokovic, but if you watch his matches, his shots and movement are not where they were the last two years. Plus, the mental edge does not seem to quite be there anymore, as seen in his more frequent "jittery" double faults and his much less frequent freakish on the run winners at clutch points in the match.

I think it's the first sign of wear and tear/slowdown for him. He's nearly a 10-year tour vet at this point, and it only makes sense, especially when you consider his physical style.

He'll still be winning titles the next few years, but right now this looks pretty close to what we saw happen with Federer starting in '08. Just a gradual slowdown, a gradual loss of invincibility, and he just won't quite be the force he was.

FINALLY. Someone who doesn't take sides. I hate to admit it, but it's the truth

 

[NadalAgassi]

Nadal was never at the top to begin with.

Nadal won 6 of the 12 slam events played from 2008-2010. Federer won 4 and won way fewer overall tournaments than Nadal, while winning only 2 matches with Nadal overall. Del Potro and Djokovic each won 1 slam. If Nadal wasnt on top during that period who was.

 

[Cassius Clay]

Said it after last week's match and I'll say it again. Nadal's play this year does NOT pass the eye test. He's putting up results and beating everyone not named Djokovic, but if you watch his matches, his shots and movement are not where they were the last two years. Plus, the mental edge does not seem to quite be there anymore, as seen in his more frequent "jittery" double faults and his much less frequent freakish on the run winners at clutch points in the match.

I think it's the first sign of wear and tear/slowdown for him. He's nearly a 10-year tour vet at this point, and it only makes sense, especially when you consider his physical style.

He'll still be winning titles the next few years, but right now this looks pretty close to what we saw happen with Federer starting in '08. Just a gradual slowdown, a gradual loss of invincibility, and he just won't quite be the force he was.

It's not the first time he loses on clay. Last year was an exception. It's not a big deal, so hold your horses.

 

[Uncle Emmitt]

24 or 25 whatever his age is, is too young to slow down. I think its just that joker is playing out of this world and his confidence is at an all time high. A very good hardcourt season for Rafa and not bad clay for a normal human being. Djokers defense is just amazing and his offense is better along w his serve and what the commentators don't talk about as much is the forehand improvement.

for the french I would pick nadal or joker
wimbledon joker, nadal or fed
us open joker , nadal, fed or del potro

as long as he can stay healthy we have not by a long shot heard the last from rafa. I'd give him at least 4 to 6 more majors. The only problem is that joker might win the french. He tends to have letups there but he is not the same player anymore. Currently he is dominant. The french will be very interesting with all the hype now.

 

[Sentinel]

I am shocked that the OP was shocked at Nole's win. Considering that Nole has been winning and beating Nadal this year. I suppose the OP will be gob-smacked or ass-tounded when Nole wins RG.

 

[Rickenbacker4003]

I think Joker raised his game above everyone else. He's undefeated. He hasn't lost to anybody. So if Nadal is sucking, what does that mean for the whole tour? Because no one else is doing much either.

 

[Raoul_Duke]

Nadal isn't sucking ... Djokovic obviously has his number.

I was pretty much sure Novak won't have a gas in his tank for this match. But then, when I saw both of them on court in first couple of games, I was surprised. It was Nadal who looked frightend and worn-out ... Novak was fresh as a daisy.

I'm starting to believe Nadal has bigger chances over Novak on hard courts than on clay these days.

 

[aceX]

Hafalito cannot handle the GOAT (dole)

 

[Smasher08]

As long as the Djoker keeps playing like this, he's number one: he still hasn't lost yet and it's almost june!

 

[BreakPoint]

P.S.- After that last point it has become abundantly clear that Novak Djokovic is the luckiest player alive.

You mean Djokovic was lucky because Nadal hit two letcords in a row in the same point and both went over the net instead of into the net? :???:

If Djokovic was any luckier he would have lost the match.

 

[zagor]

Finally an honest assesment.

You didn't read his/her whole post now did you? Do you realize he compared this year Nadal's decline to Fed's in 2008? I remember you trying to convince me(and several other Fed fans)that Fed was at his peak in 2008 but it's just that Nadal improved so much he managed to dethrone him(ie it was all due to Rafa).

 

[namelessone]

You didn't read his/her whole post now did you? Do you realize he compared this year Nadal's decline to Fed's in 2008? I remember you trying to convince me(and several other Fed fans)that Fed was at his peak in 2008 but it's just that Nadal improved so much he managed to dethrone him(ie it was all due to Rafa).

I remember saying that Federer was not so far off in form in 2008, referring especially to WB. I don't remember saying anything about USO or AO and I don't think I've ever said that Fed was AT HIS PEAK in 2008, just not that far from it.

Federer did not lose a set until the final in that WB if I remember correctly and there weren't major signs of weakness on his part before the final. Even in the final, though he started poorly, once he had a rain break to rethink his options he came out playing better. You don't magically get better over a rain break.

2007 Federer, still in his prime according to his fans, was pushed by Nadal to five sets, Nadal having shots to break in the fifth as well. Is it such a huge logical leap that Nadal took the next step in 2008? The difference between the fifth set in 2007 and 2008 WB finals is that Federer served better in 2007 and bailed himself out on those BP by Nadal. Coincidentally, out of his prime Fed did the same thing late in the fifth set against Roddick as well.

Now to Nadal's decline.

Nadal had beat Novak on 9 ocassions on clay, Novak only getting close against tendinitis ridden Nadal of 2009, everything before that being straight set beatdowns on clay, though to be fair, many of those sets were pretty close. Now in 2011, Nadal can't even push a tiebreak against this guy on clay and he has started losing sets to a injured andy murray(who barely pushed Rafa in 2009 to a TB), to ********, and to nr.148 in the world.

And tbh, Nadal looked quite shaky against Ferrer in MC and Barca as well but was lucky that Ferrer's only weapon is consistency.

As I said, the signs are all there for those that can see.

You don't dominate a surface for six years and not go down a bit.

 

[Deleted member 3771]

Joke man can have #1 and he can be Nadal's father as long as Nadal win's Roland Garros.

 

[Sentinel]

hopefully yes !

Nadal will be back in the grass season, and end Dole's reign at the top. In future years, Nole will be clay king, and Ralph will hate the clay season and yearn for the faster courts where he will win. He will also complain about the courts being slow, even grass and hard. TW ****s will have evidence that the courts have been playing slower since Jan 2011.

 

[Slice&Smash]

I remember saying that Federer was not so far off in form in 2008, referring especially to WB. I don't remember saying anything about USO or AO and I don't think I've ever said that Fed was AT HIS PEAK in 2008, just not that far from it.

Federer did not lose a set until the final in that WB if I remember correctly and there weren't major signs of weakness on his part before the final. Even in the final, though he started poorly, once he had a rain break to rethink his options he came out playing better. You don't magically get better over a rain break.

2007 Federer, still in his prime according to his fans, was pushed by Nadal to five sets, Nadal having shots to break in the fifth as well. Is it such a huge logical leap that Nadal took the next step in 2008? The difference between the fifth set in 2007 and 2008 WB finals is that Federer served better in 2007 and bailed himself out on those BP by Nadal. Coincidentally, out of his prime Fed did the same thing late in the fifth set against Roddick as well.

Now to Nadal's decline.

Nadal had beat Novak on 9 ocassions on clay, Novak only getting close against tendinitis ridden Nadal of 2009, everything before that being straight set beatdowns on clay, though to be fair, many of those sets were pretty close. Now in 2011, Nadal can't even push a tiebreak against this guy on clay and he has started losing sets to a injured andy murray(who barely pushed Rafa in 2009 to a TB), to ********, and to nr.148 in the world.

And tbh, Nadal looked quite shaky against Ferrer in MC and Barca as well but was lucky that Ferrer's only weapon is consistency.

As I said, the signs are all there for those that can see.

You don't dominate a surface for six years and not go down a bit.

I disagree with regard to Federer.

You can't compare the performance of a player based on the results of a set, match, or even a single tournament.

Federer decline is best illustrated by comparing his results from 2007.

Titles: 2008: 4 - 2007: 8
Finales: 2008: 8 - 2007: 12
Wins: 2008: 66 - 2007: 68
Losses: 2008: 15 - 2007: 9
Tournaments: 2008: 19 - 2007: 16
Win%: 2008: 81% -2007:89%
Slams: 3-1
Masters: 2-0

The list goes on.

Over his career, I don't think Federer lost his form gradually. If you look carefully, Federer had two significant health problems that resulted in a clear loss of form.

The 2008 Mono had an effect on his foot work and endurance. I say at least 5-10% drop that he never regained. Then the 2010 lung infection, after which he another at least 10% of his speed and also a decent amount of power. These days, any time the conditions are heavy he struggles to hit clean winners.

As for Nadal, its early in the season, but there is no visible drop in performance if you watch him play. And his results post AO are actually not that bad. This is the first season EVER that he has reached the final of 5 consecutive masters: IW, MI, MC, MD, and Rome. Yes, he dropped a set here and there, but more likely a result of being bored or thinking ahead rather than being outplayed.

The real difference this year is Djokovic.

 

[NamRanger]

I remember saying that Federer was not so far off in form in 2008, referring especially to WB. I don't remember saying anything about USO or AO and I don't think I've ever said that Fed was AT HIS PEAK in 2008, just not that far from it.

Federer did not lose a set until the final in that WB if I remember correctly and there weren't major signs of weakness on his part before the final. Even in the final, though he started poorly, once he had a rain break to rethink his options he came out playing better. You don't magically get better over a rain break.

2007 Federer, still in his prime according to his fans, was pushed by Nadal to five sets, Nadal having shots to break in the fifth as well. Is it such a huge logical leap that Nadal took the next step in 2008? The difference between the fifth set in 2007 and 2008 WB finals is that Federer served better in 2007 and bailed himself out on those BP by Nadal. Coincidentally, out of his prime Fed did the same thing late in the fifth set against Roddick as well.

Now to Nadal's decline.

Nadal had beat Novak on 9 ocassions on clay, Novak only getting close against tendinitis ridden Nadal of 2009, everything before that being straight set beatdowns on clay, though to be fair, many of those sets were pretty close. Now in 2011, Nadal can't even push a tiebreak against this guy on clay and he has started losing sets to a injured andy murray(who barely pushed Rafa in 2009 to a TB), to ********, and to nr.148 in the world.

And tbh, Nadal looked quite shaky against Ferrer in MC and Barca as well but was lucky that Ferrer's only weapon is consistency.

As I said, the signs are all there for those that can see.

You don't dominate a surface for six years and not go down a bit.

If you think mono didn't severely affect Federer's training schedule in 2008, which in turn affected his entire season, then you are seriously on something. Federer of 2008 was nowhere near the Federer of 2007; not even close.


The only reason why Federer came back in the Wimbledon 2008 final was because he held serve and Nadal simply choked when given chances to close him out. Federer didn't hit his way back into the match; that's preposterous. Nadal simply gifted Federer 2 sets for no reason other than huge choking by him. That final in particular is probably one of the most overrated Wimbledon matches of all time. Federer in fact did absolutely NOTHING different after coming out of the rain delay. He just simply served better, and Nadal simply choked when given the chance to finish Federer off. Federer in fact is possibly one of the most stubborn players on the planet when it comes to making midmatch adjustments.


Nadal is getting beat because he's a one trick one dimensional pony. Period. Djokovic is not as one dimensional as Nadal (his serve is a weapon, return, and he has two incredibly strong groundstrokes on both sides). He doesn't rely purely on defense as his bread and butter. He can play both defense and offense, change the direction of the ball at will on both sides, and consistently put pressure on Nadal at will. That is why Nadal is losing so bad now; Djokovic upped his game to a whole new level, while Nadal simply hasn't kept up. He is still playing the same style of tennis he used to; it's just that Djokovic is just better, period.


And please don't say that because Nadal won across multiple surfaces means he's multi dimensional. If that were the case Agassi has more dimensions than Sampras according to that theory.

 

[Double_Fault]

If we still had best-of-5 finals in MS, ****** would easily have beaten Dorkovic.

 

[NamRanger]

If we still had best-of-5 finals in MS, ****** would easily have beaten Dorkovic.

Not so sure; maybe since Djokovic played such a long match the other day, but I think it would have been tough to call considering how zoned in Djokovic was in the final.

 

[Speranza]

If we still had best-of-5 finals in MS, ****** would easily have beaten Dorkovic.

Holmes: Excuse me dear sir, but utter tripe. Would you care to justify your statement?

 

[NamRanger]

Holmes: Excuse me dear sir, but utter tripe. Would you care to justify your statement?

The thing would have been that Djokovic would have to win 3 sets against Nadal, after his long and grueling match against Murray. I think that would have been a tough ask. I saw him easily winning the final since it was best of 3. However, if he needed to play a BO5 to beat Nadal after a long and hard match the night before, I think it would have been a tough ask (although still within the realm of possibility considering how well he is playing).

 

[Double_Fault]

But ****** doesn't lose when he is not injured in a best-of-5 set match on dark red clay. It just doesn't happen.

 

[greystar403]

The thing would have been that Djokovic would have to win 3 sets against Nadal, after his long and grueling match against Murray. I think that would have been a tough ask. I saw him easily winning the final since it was best of 3. However, if he needed to play a BO5 to beat Nadal after a long and hard match the night before, I think it would have been a tough ask (although still within the realm of possibility considering how well he is playing).

Djoker has major victories in BO3...

but looking back to the 2010 US open...BO5 vs. Nadal...

although he has had major improvements to his game but endurance is a difficult skill to train...

a BO5 against nadal, especially on clay is in my opinion going to be a little too much for Djoker and nadal would hopefully take victory...

 

[Speranza]

The thing would have been that Djokovic would have to win 3 sets against Nadal, after his long and grueling match against Murray. I think that would have been a tough ask. I saw him easily winning the final since it was best of 3. However, if he needed to play a BO5 to beat Nadal after a long and hard match the night before, I think it would have been a tough ask (although still within the realm of possibility considering how well he is playing).

But ****** doesn't lose when he is not injured in a best-of-5 set match on dark red clay. It just doesn't happen.

Holmes: Aha, so Double_Fault is using the sarcasm card. My apologies, I missed it!

The reason I don't think it would have occurred NamRanger, is because the organizers would have had to reschedule the timings of the matches if there was a best of 5 format. To have a semi-final start that late at night (Sat) for best of 5, with the final scheduled the next afternoon... Well, I just can't see them having done it; all hell would have broken loose (yes, loose, this is how you use the word forum members - take note!).

THAT SAID, even if it was a best of 5, Ralph was not doing anything that was hurting Nole consistently. The opposite, however, was applying. When they reached 5-4 in that second set, Nole just moved up a gear to produce 3 match points. Who can ever do that to Ralph? He's the master of saving breakpoints. As he proved immediately by saving them. It wasn't shock that another came up though, and this time Nole (as he's done the entire several months until now) kept his cool.

All the above is mere opinion, as ever

 

[ark_28]

I am a Rafa fan but there was no luck about this! What Novak has done and has been doing the last few months is exceptional!

He is on current form the man to beat at the French Open and the onus is on Rafa to find a solution to a man who is proving to be a thorn in his side!

Rafa hasnt won won 9 Grand Slams for nothing though and I am still picking him to find a way to get in done in Paris!

Novak is the man of the moment and right now regardless of rankings he is the best player in the world but far to early to right Rafa off, apart from Novak he is beating everyone else and making finals! and we still have the biggest tournament of clay to come yet! so all to play for!

 

[NamRanger]

Holmes: Aha, so Double_Fault is using the sarcasm card. My apologies, I missed it!

The reason I don't think it would have occurred NamRanger, is because the organizers would have had to reschedule the timings of the matches if there was a best of 5 format. To have a semi-final start that late at night (Sat) for best of 5, with the final scheduled the next afternoon... Well, I just can't see them having done it; all hell would have broken loose (yes, loose, this is how you use the word forum members - take note!).

THAT SAID, even if it was a best of 5, Ralph was not doing anything that was hurting Nole consistently. The opposite, however, was applying. When they reached 5-4 in that second set, Nole just moved up a gear to produce 3 match points. Who can ever do that to Ralph? He's the master of saving breakpoints. As he proved immediately by saving them. It wasn't shock that another came up though, and this time Nole (as he's done the entire several months until now) kept his cool.

All the above is mere opinion, as ever

Ah yes, I see what you mean. Still, it would have been a difficult ask to turn around and go the next day best of five against the iron man Nadal after going the distance the night before.

 

[fhdowntheline]

I wonder if it would be a fair assessment that there is an opportunity, a springboard that Djoker is standing on right now..either he makes use of it to catapult himself into a higher league, OR he simply miscalculates and dives right down.. cuz there have been several red-hot "winning streaks" in the past only to end up in a whimper...

For Djoker to prove that this is not a one-off, he needs to win atleast one of FO/WB/US 2011 AND follow it up with another GS in 2012..Then we are on to something.

Otherwise its just another flash in the pan..but a bright one nevertheless.

 

[Raoul_Duke]

I wonder if it would be a fair assessment that there is an opportunity, a springboard that Djoker is standing on right now..either he makes use of it to catapult himself into a higher league, OR he simply miscalculates and dives right down.. cuz there have been several red-hot "winning streaks" in the past only to end up in a whimper...

For Djoker to prove that this is not a one-off, he needs to win atleast one of FO/WB/US 2011 AND follow it up with another GS in 2012..Then we are on to something.

Otherwise its just another flash in the pan..but a bright one nevertheless.

Just name your wishes and I'll pass them to Novak's team.

Anything else? How about switching to table tennis or golf and winning 86 matches in a row? Then winning a Nobel peace prize and a degree in nuclear physics?