50 year old defeats former Division 1 college tennis player (USTA 4.5 Tennis)

[pencilcheck]

I saw that aggressive 4.0 video.
I have never seen a 4.0 hit as hard as the tall guy. That is nothing like a typical 4.0
Even the shorter guy hits harder than almost any 4.0 I've ever seen

That's normal 4.0 hitting, the ball does not speed abnormally up after hitting the ground, this is still an easy shot to return. However this is a smart play since you want higher margin of error and make sure balls are going in but keeping the pressure so the opponent cannot get free points. But if you want to look at a higher level of standard, they are not hitting with good angles, they are not pushing each other around more, and have no variety to make other player lose balance or force error yet.

I think they should be able to rally even harder under normal rally situation but based on what I have seen so far, that is also not as hard as some of the stuff that I have seen before. But ultimately, hitting hard is not what makes you higher level player, better control, winning the crucial point does.

Here is an example of someone who has won ATP point and what it feels like receiving their slowest rally ball (he is being nice to the channel poster):

The guy who has ATP point (standing further away and is a lefty), hits consistently deep, good pace), and this is definitely not his normal rally shot.

 

[Dragy]

based on my own objective standard.

You haven’t been noticed demonstrating objective standards

 

[Dragy]

the ball does not speed abnormally up after hitting the ground

Balls don’t speed up after hitting the ground but for very specific cases.

 

[ChaelAZ]

The fatter guy actually is definitely at least a decent strong 4.0 and can peak close to a decent 4.5 if he is focusing based on my own objective standard.

However due to his fitness and height and maybe other body attributes that we don't know about might be limiting his potential.

But I don't know that until I talk to him about it.

I think you missed the bit that the "fat guy" at the time he had 76 wins in USTA 5.0.

I posted this video when it came out and there was much to-do about weight, but the guy is playing at the top of recreation leagues for fun and winning, so weight isn't an issue really. Sure, he would be "better" if in better shape, but I am sure where he is competition wise is more than enough for recreational play and balancing life. 99% of us folks here will never reach that level of skill no matter what shape we get in. The guy obviously has a long many years of tennis pedigree and practice.

I'd take that 4.0 game play and fat guy movement any day.

 

[pencilcheck]

You haven’t been noticed demonstrating objective standards

Ahhh, a typo...

 

[pencilcheck]

I think you missed the bit that the "fat guy" at the time he had 76 wins in USTA 5.0.

I posted this video when it came out and there was much to-do about weight, but the guy is playing at the top of recreation leagues for fun and winning, so weight isn't an issue really. Sure, he would be "better" if in better shape, but I am sure where he is competition wise is more than enough for recreational play and balancing life. 99% of us folks here will never reach that level of skill no matter what shape we get in. The guy obviously has a long many years of tennis pedigree and practice.

I'd take that 4.0 game play and fat guy movement any day.

That makes a lot of sense now. I have a small feeling he is not trying hard but really hard to tell from one vid since it is hard to tell his ceiling unless someone is at that level to force him to bring that out of him. And he seems like a nice guy so he is probably not going for 100% all the time.

It would be nice to see him playing at the 5.0 tournament, since not all tournament is equal either, as any level of opponent can participate in 5.0 tournaments some tournament is easier and some are not.

 

[mnttlrg]

I saw that aggressive 4.0 video.
I have never seen a 4.0 hit as hard as the tall guy. That is nothing like a typical 4.0
Even the shorter guy hits harder than almost any 4.0 I've ever seen

It's possible that all of us are correct.

Our top local team wins the state level finals every season, and I know they have gotten invites to the Florida facility in the past for national level competition. From there, they usually beat up on a lot of the other north and central regions, but they will also get beat up on by the California and/or southern regions (where the standard level of play is much higher).

We had a controversy once about DQ'ing, and I ended up on the phone with a national USTA rep, and he got into some detail about this issue. The limitation of the USTA computer ranking system is that it's always relative to itself and the local competition.

So in a hypothetical world of all 3.0 players who self-rate as a 4.0, a guy who is 3.5 could beat them out and get bumped up to 4.5. The same thing works in reverse where a bunch of 4.5 guys can self-rate as 4.0 and not get bumped up so long as they keep beating each other.

My local area has 3 or 4 teams that give those state champions a run for their money, so that would likely explain why I see the guys in those videos as fairly standard 4.0. I watched a video of the Youtube state champion 3.5 from Dallas, and I remember thinking that he could beat a lot of the 4.0 guys in my area, which is probably in the 3/4 tier in the national 4.0 hierarchy. His local area is probably in the top 95% of the national hierarchy.

 

[mnttlrg]

This is a better sample of an ex D1 player

Agreed, and most people should be able to see that he is lights years ahead of that other video. Not even close, 6-0 6-0, complete difference in the caliber of play.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Agreed, and most people should be able to see that he is lights years ahead of that other video. Not even close, 6-0 6-0, complete difference in the caliber of play.

The guy played D1, qualified for a few futures tournaments, and is a known tennis coach.

Definitely 4.0 working on being 4.5.

 

[mnttlrg]

The guy played D1, qualified for a few futures tournaments, and is a known tennis coach.

Definitely 4.0 working on being 4.5.

I can tell that dude has a whole other gear that he's not even bothering with because he can already eat his lunch with simple ball placement. I seriously want to know how to develop control / precision / balance like that.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Yes, then why does anyone bother learning correct stroke mechanics?

Because it leads to a higher probability of a good outcome. But no guarantee; too many other variables.

 

[E46luver]

The fatter guy actually is definitely at least a decent strong 4.0 and can peak close to a decent 4.5 if he is focusing based on my own objective standard.

Smoking crack.
That fat guy is crushing bombs left and right.
No 4.0 on the planet hits that hard

 

[Dolgopolov85]

That makes a lot of sense now. I have a small feeling he is not trying hard but really hard to tell from one vid since it is hard to tell his ceiling unless someone is at that level to force him to bring that out of him. And he seems like a nice guy so he is probably not going for 100% all the time.

It would be nice to see him playing at the 5.0 tournament, since not all tournament is equal either, as any level of opponent can participate in 5.0 tournaments some tournament is easier and some are not.

Nah, fat dude is crushing the forehand, man. It may not look like much on video but it's a monster shot.

 

[rogerroger917]

Smoking crack.
That fat guy is crushing bombs left and right.
No 4.0 on the planet hits that hard

Only 3.5 can. 3.5 hits harder than ATP. Lulz... such a fool.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[mad dog1]

The fatter guy actually is definitely at least a decent strong 4.0 and can peak close to a decent 4.5 if he is focusing based on my own objective standard

The big dude made like no forced or unforced errors in the first 5 or 6 games I watched. Think he lost 1 one off of a clean winner by his opponent. And no 4.0 rips monster Fh winners like that either. Big dude is exhibiting strong 5.0 level play.

 

[Colin52]

He would be the best 4.0 I’ve ever seen! Looks like a proper tennis player

 

[mad dog1]

He would be the best 4.0 I’ve ever seen! Looks like a proper tennis player

And sure enough, in the video description it says blue shirt played D1 and has played 5.0 since 2007. He also qualified for the main draw at 2 futures tournaments.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

And sure enough, in the video description it says blue shirt played D1 and has played 5.0 since 2007. He also qualified for the main draw at 2 futures tournaments.

Don't forget, even Fed got rated 4.5 at TT so what chance does Fat Dude have of getting into 5.0?

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I can tell that dude has a whole other gear that he's not even bothering with because he can already eat his lunch with simple ball placement. I seriously want to know how to develop control / precision / balance like that.

That inside in forehand to seal the first point, man. He's threading the needle and yet makes it look so easy.

 

[mad dog1]

That inside in forehand to seal the first point, man. He's threading the needle and yet makes it look so easy.

Routine 4.0 play.

 

[blablavla]

Don't forget, even Fed got rated 4.5 at TT so what chance does Fat Dude have of getting into 5.0?

4.5?
that sounds very generous of TT.
I thought pros get here 3.5 by default, and they need to be really good to get the 4.0
so 4.5 sounds almost like GOAT level. Perhaps during some peak days?

 

[Dolgopolov85]

4.5?
that sounds very generous of TT.
I thought pros get here 3.5 by default, and they need to be really good to get the 4.0
so 4.5 sounds almost like GOAT level. Perhaps during some peak days?

In fairness, Fed was crushing it and owning both Alex and Simon (of Top Tennis) at the same time on an indoor court, so LeeD must have been impressed enough to rate it 4.5 instead of strong 4.0.

 

[pencilcheck]

In fairness, Fed was crushing it and owning both Alex and Simon (of Top Tennis) at the same time on an indoor court, so LeeD must have been impressed enough to rate it 4.5 instead of strong 4.0.

A top pro stroke is very obvious to me. A lot of recreational however is all over the place as most of them are not that consistent also it is hard to rate someone with just one vid as well as people change over time as well.

Fed stroke is out of that world, Alex is already hitting really clean and hard also consistent but Fed stroke has magic and strong spins. His stroke production is also very efficient and smooth. You just can’t believe how Fed can even produce that shot from the body he has develop.

Fed would be out of the chart or unknown or infinite large at least to me because he is always getting better and he is already better than 99.9% of the people on the world

 

[Dolgopolov85]

A top pro stroke is very obvious to me. A lot of recreational however is all over the place as most of them are not that consistent also it is hard to rate someone with just one vid as well as people change over time as well.

Fed stroke is out of that world, Alex is already hitting really clean and hard also consistent Fed stroke has magic and strong spins. His stroke production is also very efficient and smooth. You just can’t believe how Fed can even produce that shot from the body he has develop.

Fed would be out of the chart or unknown or infinite large at least to me because he is always getting better and he is already better than 99.9% of the people on the world

Well, no **** sherlock, it's a top pro stroke.

 

[pencilcheck]

Well, no **** sherlock, it's a top pro stroke.

If it is so obvious why would people have ratings for Fed? People are saying he is like a 16 in UTR and something like a 7 or 8 in NTRP.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

If it is so obvious why would people have ratings for Fed? People are saying he is like a 16 in UTR and something like a 7 or 8 in NTRP.

I meant that it takes a special level of imbecility to confuse Fed in top gear with an amateur player, though that did happen on this forum. So the fact that you did not demonstrate it is not necessarily to your great credit.

 

[rogerroger917]

LeeD needed to down rate the pros so his legacy here is preserved. It dimishes his 130mph serves at 8pm with 25mph headwind using flat Dunlop Forte knox balls without fuzz that was chewed by a dog if an atp pro is seen as superior on here.

Sureshs is starting the coding of the leeD library section of tw forums as we speak.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[travlerajm]

LeeD needed to down rate the pros so his legacy here is preserved. It dimishes his 130mph serves at 8pm with 25mph headwind using flat Dunlop Forte knox balls without fuzz that was chewed by a dog if an atp pro is seen as superior on here.

Sureshs is starting the coding of the leeD library section of tw forums as we speak.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

I thought LeeD only claimed 120mph serve, but hit with fuzz, 50% ball pressure, in 50-deg San Pablo temp with overcast, in 1974?

 

[rogerroger917]

I thought LeeD only claimed 120mph serve, but hit with fuzz, 50% ball pressure, in 50-deg San Pablo temp with overcast, in 1974?

Not sure. Its all jumbled together. I still recall him throwing a football over his house? And then catching it after it flew 75 yards?

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[travlerajm]

Not sure. Its all jumbled together. I still recall him throwing a football over his house? And then catching it after it flew 75 yards?

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

Hopefully he will chime in and fill in the details.

 

[norcal]

This should be your only response at this point.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

It's possible that all of us are correct.

Our top local team wins the state level finals every season, and I know they have gotten invites to the Florida facility in the past for national level competition. From there, they usually beat up on a lot of the other north and central regions, but they will also get beat up on by the California and/or southern regions (where the standard level of play is much higher).

We had a controversy once about DQ'ing, and I ended up on the phone with a national USTA rep, and he got into some detail about this issue. The limitation of the USTA computer ranking system is that it's always relative to itself and the local competition.

So in a hypothetical world of all 3.0 players who self-rate as a 4.0, a guy who is 3.5 could beat them out and get bumped up to 4.5. The same thing works in reverse where a bunch of 4.5 guys can self-rate as 4.0 and not get bumped up so long as they keep beating each other.

My local area has 3 or 4 teams that give those state champions a run for their money, so that would likely explain why I see the guys in those videos as fairly standard 4.0. I watched a video of the Youtube state champion 3.5 from Dallas, and I remember thinking that he could beat a lot of the 4.0 guys in my area, which is probably in the 3/4 tier in the national 4.0 hierarchy. His local area is probably in the top 95% of the national hierarchy.

Finally, I don't feel like I'm alone. I've gotten in so many arguments with people on here about a place like Dallas and how a 4.0 in Dallas is going to be better than most 4.0s. To sum it up, I tried to explain that this is why people argue about ratings on the forum. The usual response is, well, why doesn't Dallas win every national championship, if they were that good they would, but that is beside the point. The point is the Dallas teams that don't go to nationals or even past state because of Houston just go back home and beat on each other, they never go up to 4.5 where they should, well sometimes they do. But, no, nationals doesn't correct this, it doesn't let every team in Dallas play other teams. There are about 30 4.0 teams in Dallas that have 10-25 players on each one! Look, I play sometimes in Memphis and the Memphis country club pros, 3 of them, told me whatever my rating was in Dallas, move it up .5 to decide what drills to go to. Part of it is 4.5's in Dallas will lose on purpose, every match for 2 sometimes 3 seasons to get bumped down. Do you know what kind of 4.0 competition that creates? It's way different than most areas. One of the 3.5 in Dallas that went to nationals in doubles, not team, self rated at 3.5 and was a superchamp as a teen, he is now a 4.5 2 seasons later and very competitive. That kind of thing exists everywhere though, but in Dallas there will be 5-10 of those at 3.5 and 4.0. Anyway, this kind of situation will create a difference of opinion when looking at these internet videos.

 

[ptuanminh]

Finally, I don't feel like I'm alone. I've gotten in so many arguments with people on here about a place like Dallas and how a 4.0 in Dallas is going to be better than most 4.0s. To sum it up, I tried to explain that this is why people argue about ratings on the forum. The usual response is, well, why doesn't Dallas win every national championship, if they were that good they would, but that is beside the point. The point is the Dallas teams that don't go to nationals or even past state because of Houston just go back home and beat on each other, they never go up to 4.5 where they should, well sometimes they do. But, no, nationals doesn't correct this, it doesn't let every team in Dallas play other teams. There are about 30 4.0 teams in Dallas that have 10-25 players on each one! Look, I play sometimes in Memphis and the Memphis country club pros, 3 of them, told me whatever my rating was in Dallas, move it up .5 to decide what drills to go to. Part of it is 4.5's in Dallas will lose on purpose, every match for 2 sometimes 3 seasons to get bumped down. Do you know what kind of 4.0 competition that creates? It's way different than most areas. One of the 3.5 in Dallas that went to nationals in doubles, not team, self rated at 3.5 and was a superchamp as a teen, he is now a 4.5 2 seasons later and very competitive. That kind of thing exists everywhere though, but in Dallas there will be 5-10 of those at 3.5 and 4.0. Anyway, this kind of situation will create a difference of opinion when looking at these internet videos.

So you are telling me that there's some 4.5 team somewhere, who will intentionally lose every match in a season, so that they can get bumped down and beat up on some poor 4.0 team????
I really want to believe it, but it sounds made up.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

So you are telling me that there's some 4.5 team somewhere, who will intentionally lose every match in a season, so that they can get bumped down and beat up on some poor 4.0 team????
I really want to believe it, but it sounds made up.

I know specifically 1 team in Dallas that lost every match, freaking every single one 0-5, 0-5, 0-5 for 3 seasons to get them all bumped down to make a run at 4.0 nationals. That team got bumped up because of playoff success, all of them to 4.5 and suddenly they all forgot how to play tennis !?!?! it's too crazy. Then after the bump down was completed, they won 90% of their matches again.
It's also well documented in a Dallas tennis blog...http://dallasleaguetennis.blogspot.com/ but the blog is dead now pretty much.

I know it sounds insane, I agree it is insane, these people even have families and kids and spend precious time on the weekends tanking. I've seen it with my own eyes. It's insane in Texas, Houston more than once has assembled teams from all over the city, like all start teams to try and win state and go to nationals. Every season 1 or 2 teams in Dallas and Houston will have rosters of 30-40 people and the best players will play twice in the season to qualify for playoffs, losing on purpose to protect their rating, then the guys who won the regular season matches will be content to ride the bench when the better players play playoffs. You wouldn't believe the insanity. And many of the captains don't play at all on the teams, it's just a hobby to be general manager, lol. The 4.5 and 5.0 level doesn't have this going on though.

 

[onehandbh]

Playing

I know specifically 1 team in Dallas that lost every match, freaking every single one 0-5, 0-5, 0-5 for 3 seasons to get them all bumped down to make a run at 4.0 nationals.

3 years of tanking to get back to 4.0???

Winning at usta 4.0 must be very high on their priority list in life. If they ever make it to nationals, I wonder if an opponent’s bad line call would bring out an AR15.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Playing


3 years of tanking to get back to 4.0???

Winning at usta 4.0 must be very high on their priority list in life. If they ever make it to nationals, I wonder if an opponent’s bad line call would bring out an AR15.

3 seasons, not years, but yes, just to be clear. It's very important, well I hope it is.

 

[jmnk]

I just found this randomly on Youtube, but this looks like fairly standard 4.0 league tennis to me. I think both of these guys would beat either of those other two guys.

so that 'just randomly found on YouTube video of fairly standard 4.0 league tennis' is anything but:
at least one of the players made it to the National level,
at least one of the players got bumped to 4.5.

but other than that - yes, just a regular average 4.0 level play I mean,there's no words......

 

[mnttlrg]

so that 'just randomly found on YouTube video of fairly standard 4.0 league tennis' is anything but:
at least one of the players made it to the National level,
at least one of the players got bumped to 4.5.

but other than that - yes, just a regular average 4.0 level play I mean,there's no words......

Are both of those statements about the same guy? Just curious, not trying to argue.

Getting bumped up or making it to nationals is not as big of a deal as it sounds like. If you are the best team in your local area, you make it to nationals. If you beat the other 4.0's in your area, you end up at 4.5. I have seen some pretty weak-hitting pushers end up at 4.5, and if you look at the worst players on the roster of my local team that got invited to nationals, they are definitely nothing special. Some of them are borderline 3.5's playing in 4.0, which is why they play in the 3 doubles spot. But they can say "I got invited to nationals" just the same as the really good 4.5 sandbaggers at the top of their lineup.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that your point is invalid, but let's not blow things out of proportion, either. I can easily think of 10-15 guys in my area who play 4.0 who hit every bit as hard and accurate as those guys do. Maybe my area is very competitive, though. Who knows?

 

[mnttlrg]

but other than that - yes, just a regular average 4.0 level play I mean,there's no words......

And either way, that doesn't address the actual point I made about it.

 

[pencilcheck]

This should be your only response at this point.

You mean I'm the one looking at the one closing the door? Sure.

Whether if I contribute more to this topic, I am off to hit more tennis and improve. That's ultimately the goal of this forum anyway.

I don't know how this thread will help anyone to improve their level of tennis but some of you want to feel like there has to be a winner and a loser in this virtually useless argument that no one has a good answer for that's fine by me to close the door and leave.

 

[onehandbh]

How do the guys in the videos posted so far compare vs these guys?
(set starts at 35:52)

 

[mnttlrg]

so that 'just randomly found on YouTube video of fairly standard 4.0 league tennis' is anything but:

And since you sound like you might be accusing me of something, all I did was search for USTA 4.0 tennis on Youtube and it popped right up. If you are inferring anything otherwise, that is some weak-minded stuff.

 

[E46luver]

Is E46 the poster formerly known as TTPS? He’s assiduously avoided responding to any post making that allegation. I’m fascinated. E46 is much more restrained and NO CAPS ABUSE but the content is very similar. Fascinating.

no, i am not interested in who that other person is, but i skip over personal theories and stick to my tennis talking.

 

[jmnk]

Are both of those statements about the same guy? Just curious, not trying to argue.

Getting bumped up or making it to nationals is not as big of a deal as it sounds like. If you are the best team in your local area, you make it to nationals. If you beat the other 4.0's in your area, you end up at 4.5. I have seen some pretty weak-hitting pushers end up at 4.5, and if you look at the worst players on the roster of my local team that got invited to nationals, they are definitely nothing special. Some of them are borderline 3.5's playing in 4.0, which is why they play in the 3 doubles spot. But they can say "I got invited to nationals" just the same as the really good 4.5 sandbaggers at the top of their lineup.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that your point is invalid, but let's not blow things out of proportion, either. I can easily think of 10-15 guys in my area who play 4.0 who hit every bit as hard and accurate as those guys do. Maybe my area is very competitive, though. Who knows?

And either way, that doesn't address the actual point I made about it.

And since you sound like you might be accusing me of something, all I did was search for USTA 4.0 tennis on Youtube and it popped right up. If you are inferring anything otherwise, that is some weak-minded stuff.

I'm not really sure what you are arguing.
In your post when you posted a video you made two statements:
#1 - that the video you posted is of an 'average 4.0 level play'. That is factually incorrect since the video shows players where at least one was bumped to 4.5, and at least one player got to national. And the score was very competitive which means that _both_ players in that video are of similar level. Now, by the very definition of what the 'average' means it cannot be be an accurate example of an 4.0 level since, clearly, an average 4.0 players do not advance to National, and they do not get bumped to 4.5.
#2 - the second statement you made was 'I think both of these guys [i.e. from your video] would beat either of those other two guys [i.e. from OP video]'. Since that is your _opinion_ and not a fact I'm not arguing with that since one cannot argue with an opinion. I definitely do not share your opinion - but I can't prove that you are wrong either, so there's no point discussing that.
also, if your youtube search for 4.0 level play returns that video as one of the top results then I would be interested what exact search string you have used. Even if that indeed happened you should have at least read some of the comments in that video you posted, and realize that it is _not_ an example of an 'average 4.0 level play'.
Thank you for participating in the discussion.

 

[mnttlrg]

not really sure what you are arguing.

I will just repeat what I was arguing:

The non-4.0 but really officially a 4.0 match has clearly better player movement, placement, and consistency, with more or less the same velocity on the shots. These are fairly objective things that can be measured.

So you have a "D1, 4.5" player who is unable to cover court distances on time and can't keep 3 balls in the court, and a 4.0 match that is clearly at a higher level to compare it to.

Not to go absurdum on you, but if you saw a video of Federer next to a video of a beginner, is it an inarguable "matter of opinion" as to who is better?

So I am skeptical of the claim that he was on a D1 team, and even more skeptical of the claim that he is playing at a 4.5 level. Having watched at least 50 players in both of those tiers, he clearly does not measure up.

The older guy gets a free pass. I'm not as concerned about his level. I have seen plenty of guys with strange techniques but great match play ability, so I won't comment too much there.

 

[Bender]

TW: It's impossible to get past 3.5 without playing smart tennis.

Also TW: The ATP tour is full of brainless ball-bashers.

J

Someone: Nadal / Djokovic / Murray play intelligent tennis

TTW Translation: Nadal / Djokovic / Murray are forking no-skill pushers

 

[ptuanminh]

I will just repeat what I was arguing:

The non-4.0 but really officially a 4.0 match has clearly better player movement, placement, and consistency, with more or less the same velocity on the shots. These are fairly objective things that can be measured.

I play 4.0 and i have to disgree with you. an average 4.0 is clearly not better than tennis troll. average 4.0 doesnt have such serves and FH.

 

[mnttlrg]

I play 4.0 and i have to disgree with you. an average 4.0 is clearly not better than tennis troll. average 4.0 doesnt have such serves and FH.

Right, he's in the video with the 5.0 guy. Different video.

 

[5point5]