A kinematic comparison of the overhand throw and tennis serve in tennis players: How

[julian]

A kinematic comparison of the overhand throw and tennis serve in tennis players: How similar are they really?

Machar Reid
Georgia Giblin
David Whiteside
Journal of sports sciences 12/2014; DOI: 10.1080/02640414.2014.962572
Source: PubMed
ABSTRACT Tennis coaches often use the fundamental throwing skill as a training tool to develop the service action.
However, recent skill acquisition literature questions the efficacy of non-specific training drills for developing complex sporting movements. Thus, this study examined the mechanical analogy of the throw and the tennis serve at three different levels of development. A 500 Hz, 22-camera VICON MX motion capture system recorded 28 elite female tennis players (prepubescent (n = 10), pubescent (n = 10), adult (n = 8)) as they performed flat serves and overhand throws. Two-way ANOVAs with repeated measures and partial correlations (controlling for group) assessed the strength and nature of the mechanical associations between the tasks.

Preparatory mechanics were similar between the two tasks, while during propulsion, peak trunk twist and elbow extension velocities were significantly higher in the throw, yet the peak shoulder internal rotation and wrist flexion angular velocities were significantly greater in the serve.

Furthermore, all of these peak angular velocities occurred significantly earlier in the serve.
Ultimately, although the throw may help to prime transverse trunk kinematics in the serve, mechanics in the two skills appear less similar than many coaches seem to believe.
Practitioners should, therefore, be aware that the throw appears less useful for priming the specific arm kinematics and temporal phasing that typifies the tennis serve.

 

[GuyClinch]

I question the idea of using 28 elite female servers. I don't even think Sharapova has an elite serve and she is a pro.

 

[julian]

See a comment by Henry

see a comment by Henry in
http://www.feeltennis.net/shoulder-over-shoulder-serve-technique-explained/

 

[Chas Tennis]

One of the authors of the OP reference, D. Whiteside, replied with some detailed and insightful comments in this thread.
http://asmiforum.proboards.com/thread/2104/shoulder-orientation-overhead-baseball-tennis

 

[Chas Tennis]

From
Western Washington University
Western CEDAR
WWU Masters Thesis Collection
2012
A biomechanical comparison between a baseball
pitch and a first serve in tennis
Marc A. Keller
Western Washington University


"The shoulder joint of both athletes reaches full external rotation and 90° of abduction
at the end of the late cocking phase (Lee, 1995). The anterior capsule of the shoulder, along
with its structures, is stretched to its physiological limit during this point of the motion (Lee,
1995). At the late cocking stage, the position of the glenohumeral joint strongly resembles a
closed packed position, with the shoulder in abduction and extreme external rotation
(Wiliams, Warwick, Dyson, & Bannister, 1989). A closed packed position offers a
maximum amount of stability to that specific joint (Wiliams et al., 1989). In this position the
ligaments are stretched tightly and the surfaces of the joint are most congruent, creating static
stability (Lee, 1995). This stability is compromised, however, due to the dynamic nature of
the two motions during the late cocking phase (Lee, 1995). To add dynamic stability,
internal rotators such as the latissimus dorsi and pectoralis major become active (Jobe et al.,
1984; Ryu et al., 1988).

The stretch-shortening cycle activated by end-range eccentric
actions occurring in the late cocking phase generates power produced by the internal rotators
of the shoulder (Lee, 1995)."

I use Google Scholar to search for publications. Often a link is provided.

For the above paper. 105 page pdf.
http://cedar.wwu.edu/cgi/viewconten...ball pitch first serve tennis Marc A. Keller"

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I question the idea of using 28 elite female servers. I don't even think Sharapova has an elite serve and she is a pro.

How quickly we forget. Prior to her shoulder problems/injury in 2007, she possessed one of the best serves in the WTA -- it was consistent, fluid and potent. As for mechanics, there are many more elements that are proper with her motion than flawed. Perhaps she could find her consistency & effectiveness again if she lowered her toss a bit and tweaked her motion to regain her balance sooner.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=3046996
http://www.optimumtennis.net/maria-sharapova-serve.htm

I do not believe that the use of elite females for the study minimizes its validity. I have felt for decades that ball throwing mechanics differs considerably from tennis serving mechanics. My own experience tells me this. I serve considerably better with my left arm than my right. However, my ball throwing mechanics with my left arm feels very awkward, is rather erratic and not particularly accurate. My ball throwing mechanics with my right arm is quite a bit more fluid, accurate and powerful. I've seen the same thing with a number of students -- their natural throwing arm and their tennis serving arm are not the same.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This presentation is related.

See pages 8 and 10 of this presentation.
http://www.spalla.it/handout/2012_aprile/ELLIOTT_Biom_of_serve_Italy_20_m.pdf

A good book covering the subject of the 'cartwheel' and other service motions is Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis.

Perhaps Bahamonde introduced the term "cartwheel"? He is usually referenced. But his 2000 publication is not available except at high cost, $40, or free if you are a student and your library happens to have a journal subscription.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10972409
http://www.science.gov/scigov/result-list/fullRecord:Bahamonde+2000+tennis+serve/

However, I have seen some surprisingly minimal, relaxed looking activity of the back leg in some high speed videos, so double check the part played by the back leg. Does the back leg have a dominant role? Always? Mostly? Variation among servers?

 

[julian]

See post number 3

I use Google Scholar to search for publications. Often a link is provided.

For the above paper. 105 page pdf.
http://cedar.wwu.edu/cgi/viewconten...ball pitch first serve tennis Marc A. Keller"

See post number 3

 

[julian]

Please see post number 3

How quickly we forget. Prior to her shoulder problems/injury in 2007, she possessed one of the best serves in the WTA -- it was consistent, fluid and potent. As for mechanics, there are many more elements that are proper with her motion than flawed. Perhaps she could find her consistency & effectiveness again if she lowered her toss a bit and tweaked her motion to regain her balance sooner.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=3046996
http://www.optimumtennis.net/maria-sharapova-serve.htm

I do not believe that the use of elite females for the study minimizes its validity. I have felt for decades that ball throwing mechanics differs considerably from tennis serving mechanics. My own experience tells me this. I serve considerably better with my left arm than my right. However, my ball throwing mechanics with my left arm feels very awkward, is rather erratic and not particularly accurate. My ball throwing mechanics with my right arm is quite a bit more fluid, accurate and powerful. I've seen the same thing with a number of students -- their natural throwing arm and their tennis serving arm are not the same.

Please see post number 3

 

[Chas Tennis]

These frames from a Pat Dougherty video on throwing as a drill for serving finally convinced me of the value of the drill, as many posters had been saying. The upper arm rotates from ISR in a very similar way for throwing and serving in the frames below, using her throwing and serving techniques.

Here are the pictures from a Pat Dougherty Youtube video.

For drilling the most difficult concept - rotating the upper arm with ISR, it looks as if a proper throw is very similar to the serve as you have often said. Here her upper arm and body orientation are even in the same position as for her serve.

A high speed video showing the throw and the serve instead of these blurred captures from a 30 fps interaced video (double images) would be great.

The AMSI link in reply #34 also has a very detailed response from a researcher very familiar with this issue. He points out similarities and differences.
http://asmiforum.proboards.com/thread/2104/shoulder-orientation-overhead-baseball-tennis

Back to the OP - note that the girl's shoulders look reasonable in orientation.

Looks very good for the feel.

See
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=8061362&postcount=105

There are important differences as pointed out by Whiteside, references earlier.

Also, if the racket is thrown mostly by elbow extension and not so much upper arm rotation(ISR), I hope someone can show the similarity.

 

[julian]

I do not understand the last sentence

These frames from a Pat Dougherty video on throwing as a drill for serving finally convinced me of the value of the drill, as many posters had been saying. The upper arm rotates from ISR in a very similar way for throwing and serving in the frames below, using her throwing and serving techniques.



Looks very good for the feel.

See
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=8061362&postcount=105

There are important differences as pointed out by Whiteside, references earlier.

Also, if the racket is thrown mostly by elbow extension and not so much upper arm rotation(ISR), I hope someone can show the similarity.

Are you referring to baseball in the last sentence?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Are you referring to baseball in the last sentence?

I was referring to throwing as a drill for the tennis serve -

If someone advocates throwing the racket by extending the elbow and not using ISR, or does not pay attention to the technique that the player is using for throwing - they should make a case as to why an elbow extension throw is a useful drill for teaching the serve. What's the rationale?

I'm assuming that saying 'proper throw' does not connect with the majority of players. For example, if you told me to 'throw a racket' I might do so with elbow extension and hardly any ISR.

(An elbow extension throw might be a good drill for a Waiter's Tray serve though....)

 

[ARKustom93]

A kinematic comparison of the overhand throw and tennis serve in tennis players: How similar are they really?

Machar Reid
Georgia Giblin
David Whiteside
Journal of sports sciences 12/2014; DOI: 10.1080/02640414.2014.962572
Source: PubMed
ABSTRACT Tennis coaches often use the fundamental throwing skill as a training tool to develop the service action.
However, recent skill acquisition literature questions the efficacy of non-specific training drills for developing complex sporting movements. Thus, this study examined the mechanical analogy of the throw and the tennis serve at three different levels of development. A 500 Hz, 22-camera VICON MX motion capture system recorded 28 elite female tennis players (prepubescent (n = 10), pubescent (n = 10), adult (n = 8)) as they performed flat serves and overhand throws. Two-way ANOVAs with repeated measures and partial correlations (controlling for group) assessed the strength and nature of the mechanical associations between the tasks.

Preparatory mechanics were similar between the two tasks, while during propulsion, peak trunk twist and elbow extension velocities were significantly higher in the throw, yet the peak shoulder internal rotation and wrist flexion angular velocities were significantly greater in the serve.

Furthermore, all of these peak angular velocities occurred significantly earlier in the serve.
Ultimately, although the throw may help to prime transverse trunk kinematics in the serve, mechanics in the two skills appear less similar than many coaches seem to believe.
Practitioners should, therefore, be aware that the throw appears less useful for priming the specific arm kinematics and temporal phasing that typifies the tennis serve.

Any info on whether the test subjects were instructed to aim for a specific trajectory (horizontal, upward), when throwing?

The arm motion in a horizontal throw does not resemble the arm motion performed in a serve.

 

[Chas Tennis]

..................................................

The arm motion in a horizontal throw does not resemble the arm motion performed in a serve.

That is a tricky question. Biomechanically the shoulder joint can be in a similar orientation for several throwing motions and the serve.

See thread below and the reply with this picture and the link to the reference.
http://asmiforum.proboards.com/thread/2104/shoulder-orientation-overhead-baseball-tennis

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

See post number 3

Please see post number 3

Too cryptic. What about post #3?

.

 

[julian]

Hold your horses

Any info on whether the test subjects were instructed to aim for a specific trajectory (horizontal, upward), when throwing?

The arm motion in a horizontal throw does not resemble the arm motion performed in a serve.

Hold your horses.
The question will be answered when I will see a full paper.
Your estimated waiting time is 7 days and 3 minutes.

The standard tennis teaching method is to throw from a baseline over a regular net to a proper serve box.
I do teach it every day.

On some days I request throwing a basketball or a medicine ball-2 pounder.
If no medicine all we throw a steak.
My student attrition rate is high-around 90 percents.

 

[julian]

see the link

Too cryptic. What about post #3?

.

See the link/video with a girl serving lying on a ground.
Very amusing
Too some extent innovative excuse it removes girly legs from the picture (pun intended).
There was a rumor that you are freezing

 

[ARKustom93]

That is a tricky question. Biomechanically the shoulder joint can be in a similar orientation for several throwing motions and the serve.

See thread below and the reply with this picture and the link to the reference.
http://asmiforum.proboards.com/thread/2104/shoulder-orientation-overhead-baseball-tennis

In ref.to pics 1, 2, and 4 provided in the link, comparing #1 to #2, the latter shows a nearly perpendicular shoulder/upper arm to core axis orientation(core axis being close to horizontal), compared to #1 where shoulder and arm axis are offset, and the core axis is off vertical by around 15deg, give or take, so in short, even though at first sight, they look similar, quite significant differences. And those differences are even more apparent in the Stosur pic.

 

[Chas Tennis]

In ref.to pics 1, 2, and 4 provided in the link, comparing #1 to #2, the latter shows a nearly perpendicular shoulder/upper arm to core axis orientation(core axis being close to horizontal), compared to #1 where shoulder and arm axis are offset, and the core axis is off vertical by around 15deg, give or take, so in short, even though at first sight, they look similar, quite significant differences. And those differences are even more apparent in the Stosur pic.

Where are these, reply # or link? "In ref.to pics 1, 2, and 4 provided in the link, comparing #1 to #2, .." The ASMI thread and 1) serve, 2) baseball pitch and last 4) Stosur serve?

Shoulder joint measurements are not perfect. Probably because the socket half of the shoulder joint is on the scapula. The scapula moves around significantly. The body also tilts significantly especially for the baseball pitches.

Measuring Shoulder Abduction from the Side of the Body. See also the comment by Whiteside on how the upper arm to body angle ('shoulder abduction') is usually measured in the ASMI link in reply #?.

The important angle is probably not the abduction angle as measured from the spine/torso/core axis (the white crosses of Reply #14) or as Whiteside describes, from the side of the body.

The overall body can tilt, the scapula can move around, the shoulder girdle can tilt and the spine can bend especially on the serve with the shoulder high. These body orientations can look very different but the main idea is that the shoulder joint is oriented to perform ISR for all baseball pitches and the serve. In other words, the way the humerus is oriented to the scapula is most important. The Ellenbecker video discusses these issues for the serve.

 

[julian]

Julian got very excited

In ref.to pics 1, 2, and 4 provided in the link, comparing #1 to #2, the latter shows a nearly perpendicular shoulder/upper arm to core axis orientation(core axis being close to horizontal), compared to #1 where shoulder and arm axis are offset, and the core axis is off vertical by around 15deg, give or take, so in short, even though at first sight, they look similar, quite significant differences. And those differences are even more apparent in the Stosur pic.

Please provide a link to the "Stosur picture".
I am having a great time today after seeing a picture of a girl lying on a ground and serving

 

[ARKustom93]

Hold your horses.
The question will be answered when I will see a full paper.
Your estimated waiting time is 7 days and 3 minutes.

The standard tennis teaching method is to throw from a baseline over a regular net to a proper serve box.
I do teach it every day.

On some days I request throwing a basketball or a medicine ball-2 pounder.
If no medicine all we throw a steak.
My student attrition rate is high-around 90 percents.

Happy New Year ...

BTW, Steak? No good, try using a Pernil(Spanish style roasted pork shoulder, delicious, and weighs quite a bit more). Will result in much better upward arm extension.

Oh, and 7 some days is too long, ... based on the average individual's attention span, good chance this thread's gonna be dead by then(or another train wreck)

 

[ARKustom93]

Please provide a link to the "Stosur picture".
I am having a great time today after seeing a picture of a girl lying on a ground and serving

See Chas' post #14 ... Gonna be disappointed, though, ... looks like she's all about business ..... No fun and games for you

 

[julian]

Happy Chinese New Year?

Happy New Year ...

BTW, Steak? No good, try using a Pernil(Spanish style roasted pork shoulder, delicious, and weighs quite a bit more). Will result in much better upward arm extension.

Oh, and 7 some days is too long, ... based on the average individual's attention span, good chance this thread's gonna be dead by then(or another train wreck)

Do I look Chinese?

 

[julian]

Bionic posters

Happy New Year ...

BTW, Steak? No good, try using a Pernil(Spanish style roasted pork shoulder, delicious, and weighs quite a bit more). Will result in much better upward arm extension.

Oh, and 7 some days is too long, ... based on the average individual's attention span, good chance this thread's gonna be dead by then(or another train wreck)

Bionic posters are in charge of wrecking trains and brains

 

[travlerajm]

Here's some food for thought.

I've never been able to throw a ball at very high velocity. I used to pitch in little league, but I was lousy.

However, in the times when I play tennis and hit serves regularly, I'm able to crank my serve up with enough speed and spin so that it hits the back fence off the bounce more than 6 feet high and still rising.

One of the reasons I'm able to serve so big (despite my inability to throw a ball hard) is because when I'm serving at my best, I launch my entire body into the air with a enough forward explosion that I land about 6 feet inside the court. The extra height from my jump also makes the ball bounce much higher (helping it's effectiveness) because I can hit with a greater downward angle into the court. Although I start from a platform stance, it's effectively the same approach that gives the Battistone brothers their big powerful serves. The key to getting this explosion is to rock back, then lean my front hip out in into the court so that my push-off is directed forward rather than just up (see Sam Groth vids for good example of good hip lean).

The forward momentum of my body weight has very efficient momentum transfer into the ball on the serve. The momentum transfer happens during the impact on the strings, and (unlike with a throw) it is almost independent of biomechanics.

I could probably throw a ball a lot harder if I got a running start (to simulate the forward momentum I use on the serve), but I'm not able to do that when I pitch into the radar gun booth. And trying to jump into a throw might not work very well, because it would take perfect timing and biomechanics to efficiently transfer my forward momentum into the thrown ball.

 

[ARKustom93]

Do I look Chinese?

Head shot, please??

 

[julian]

Do you know how to see my Chinese signature?

Head shot, please??

Do you know how to see my signature?
I am originally from Shanghai
Julian Mielniczuk
USPTA pro

 

[sureshs]

I question the idea of using 28 elite female servers. I don't even think Sharapova has an elite serve and she is a pro.

The post said 28 elite tennis players, not elite servers.

 

[GuyClinch]

The post said 28 elite tennis players, not elite servers.

Seems worse. It's quite possible to be a high level tennis player on the women's side and have flawed serving mechanics. I'd betif you asked the serve doctor he would say its typical. On the women's side bad serving technique is rampant.

Likewise it's possible for men to serve 90+ mph with a waiter serve and an eastern grip.

So you cannot say because xyz don't use proper throwing mechanics in their serve that its not like a throw. There is a logical leap there. Those people might not be serving to the maximum of their potential.

All you can say is that the serve of a bunch of elite tennis playing women use isn't that much like a throw.

For an analogy:

A pro powerlifter is excellent at getting his legs and hips into his bench press. You could OTOH take a group of fairly strong bodybuilders - look at how they bench and then conclude that you don't need to use your legs at all in bench pressing for competition..Such a conclusion would be entirely flawed.

The study would have more validity if it compared a few male pro servers to high level throwers. Like say comparing Roddick to a pitcher..

 

[ARKustom93]

Do you know how to see my signature?
I am originally from Shanghai
Julian Mielniczuk
USPTA pro

And, just when I thought I had detected a very subtle sense of humor ...

 

[julian]

Let me ask you a simple question

And, just when I thought I had detected a very subtle sense of humor ...

If a Mexican eats Chinese food 3 times per day during a full year
would you call a Mexican Mexican after one year?
Or would you call him/her Taiwanese?
If you have string called Luxilon Soft is it still a poly string.
I hope you follow my meaning.

 

[julian]

The answer is indirect

Any info on whether the test subjects were instructed to aim for a specific trajectory (horizontal, upward), when throwing?

The arm motion in a horizontal throw does not resemble the arm motion performed in a serve.

The target located on the opposite baseline 2.5 m high
If one cannot hit a target without a bounce one bounce is allowed
(I am not joking)

 

[ARKustom93]

The target located on the opposite baseline 2.5 m high
If one cannot hit a target without a bounce one bounce is allowed
(I am not joking)

Way too low. When using the throw as a training aid, I'm instructing my students to aim for a steeply ascending, lob-like trajectory. Thrown from the BL, the ball apexes before or above the net, landing around the opposite service line. Using this approach results in not just the arm-, but entire body motion much more closely resembling the form of a serve.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The girl in this Pat Dougherty video is also throwing high, lob like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EFWB18kPWY#t=44

See stills of the frames in reply #10.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Link for the report in the OP.

A kinematic comparison of the overhand throw and tennis serve in tennis players: How similar are they really?

Machar Reid
Georgia Giblin
David Whiteside
Journal of sports sciences 12/2014; DOI: 10.1080/02640414.2014.962572
Source: PubMed
ABSTRACT Tennis coaches often use the fundamental throwing skill as a training tool to develop the service action.
However, recent skill acquisition literature questions the efficacy of non-specific training drills for developing complex sporting movements. Thus, this study examined the mechanical analogy of the throw and the tennis serve at three different levels of development. A 500 Hz, 22-camera VICON MX motion capture system recorded 28 elite female tennis players (prepubescent (n = 10), pubescent (n = 10), adult (n = 8)) as they performed flat serves and overhand throws. Two-way ANOVAs with repeated measures and partial correlations (controlling for group) assessed the strength and nature of the mechanical associations between the tasks.

Preparatory mechanics were similar between the two tasks, while during propulsion, peak trunk twist and elbow extension velocities were significantly higher in the throw, yet the peak shoulder internal rotation and wrist flexion angular velocities were significantly greater in the serve.

Furthermore, all of these peak angular velocities occurred significantly earlier in the serve.
Ultimately, although the throw may help to prime transverse trunk kinematics in the serve, mechanics in the two skills appear less similar than many coaches seem to believe.
Practitioners should, therefore, be aware that the throw appears less useful for priming the specific arm kinematics and temporal phasing that typifies the tennis serve.

Here is a link for the reference in the OP. It probably represents one of the few research investigations of the similarity of throwing and serving.
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...in_tennis_players_How_similar_are_they_really

 

[julian]

Any comments about the paper?

Here is a link for the reference in the OP. It probably represents one of the few research investigations of the similarity of throwing and serving.
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...in_tennis_players_How_similar_are_they_really

Any comments from you about the paper?

 

[Raul_SJ]

I have felt for decades that ball throwing mechanics differs considerably from tennis serving mechanics. My own experience tells me this. I serve considerably better with my left arm than my right. However, my ball throwing mechanics with my left arm feels very awkward, is rather erratic and not particularly accurate. My ball throwing mechanics with my right arm is quite a bit more fluid, accurate and powerful. I've seen the same thing with a number of students -- their natural throwing arm and their tennis serving arm are not the same.

Very surprised to hear this. My experience is exactly the opposite.

People throw VERY weakly with their non-dominant arm in comparison to their
dominant arm.

I believe that the vast majority have a natural preference for either the left or right arm.

How do I test this? My throwing mechanics with my right arm is very good (Coaches in tennis clinics told me this when we did ball throwing drills.)

I have never practiced throwing (or serving) with my left arm. Throwing feels very weak.

Does that left arm throwing weakness indicate that my left arm throwing mechanics are poor? Or is this something that needs to be practiced before making a conclusion on non-dominant arm throwing mechanics?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Any comments from you about the paper?

I just skimmed it so far. It has a comprehensive literature search for serving and throwing research that is very useful in itself, very orientating discussion of research from knowledgeable biomechanical researchers. I believe that the report says that there has not been much research comparing the motions.

I believe that throwing is likely useful because I can see that the ISR in throwing and pitching is very similar from those video frames of the girl throwing and serving in the Pat Dougherty video. The frames are shown in an earlier reply. I have not studied the reference yet.

 

[RetroSpin]

Interesting topic. Actually topics. One is the validity of observing optimum technique from less than world class performers. Females also have well-documented issues with throwing as well.

That said, I have had doubts for soem time about how close the throwing and serving analogy truly was. On the one side, there is a fantastic slomo video on the Essential Tennis website of Tim Linsecum throwing. I was shocked how closely his motion resembled a serve. On the other hand, pitchers are holding the ball in their hand, not propelling it with a 27 inch racquet.

 

[BMC9670]

This is how tennis players throw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQQRSVNmTkY