All Purpose Serve?

TimothyO

Hall of Fame
A challenge we noobs face is consistency. I diligently head to the courts about three times a week just to hit serves alone. This does not include hitting with friends, team practice, weekly club events such as our Thursday night Fight Club, or formal match play. Just a basket of balls and about 50+ serves (sometimes about 100 but I've read that'snot good for over 40 shoulders.)

I can now hit a respectable kick serve in that it curves, dives, stays in, but has only ok pace. A level players would use it for target practice. Fellow B level players can return it but need to think about it. Recently I tried a full eastern back hand for kick serves and LOVE the results! In practice I can bomb serves into the corner near the net...sometimes! :)

My flat serve stinks. Getting better, but low enough percentage that I tend to avoid it in matches. I only pull it out enough to keep opponents honest. I'll even risk a point and use it as a second serve just so they don't assume the seond will be a kick serve.

Here'smy problem. I'd like to use my flat serve more to develop it under match conditions but I find switching between flat and kick rather difficult. I'm simply not good enough to hit a flat first serve followed by a second kick serve. Not enough muscle memory yet I suppose.

As I workon serves is there an all purpose serve technique between hard flat serve and monster bomb kick serves? Something like an extra spinny flat serve or flatter top spin serve that, using a single motion, is highly likely to go in with one or two attempts? If yes, is that accomplished primarily with grip or swing path? Or is this not adisable and one shoild simply stick with distinct flat and spin serves, especially as a noob?

In other words, is there a respectable all purpose B level serve that's reliable enough and fast enough to be used for both first and second serves? Any advice would be much appreciated. Last week I hurt my elbow and arm so I've barely been able to serve anyway (trying to serve during a match on Saturday was murder!). Later This week I intend to return to practiceand hope to give something like this a try.
 
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mightyrick

Legend
In other words, is there a respectable all purpose B level serve that's reliable enough and fast enough to be used for both first and second serves? Any advice would be much appreciated. Last week I hurt my elbow and arm so I've barely been able to serve anyway (trying to serve during a match on Saturday was murder!). Later This week I intend to return to practiceand hope to give something like this a try.

I think a top/slice is very all purpose. I also have a flat serve, but I will mix in a top/slice for my first serve quite a lot.

I can hit the top/slice probably 75mph and it will break to the left at least five feet. Better yet, I can place it where I want... just by turning my stance a little bit. Like you, my first serve isn't the best. It is fast but not consistent. But I win a ton of points off of my top/slice. You might try it.
 

Nellie

Hall of Fame
With a slight change in contact height and position forward, you can really change a kick serve to a fast kicking serve. Alternatively, you can go for a better position on a first serve kicker and aim the second serve into the middle of them box.
 

KenC

Hall of Fame
I think a top/slice is very all purpose. I also have a flat serve, but I will mix in a top/slice for my first serve quite a lot.

+1 on the topslice serve. For a great example watch Nadal's second serve. It is also easier to hit than a topspin serve and much more consistent than a flat serve. Because of the arc while in the air and the ball jumping a bit to a side on the bounce makes the serve hard to attack and generally produces a weaker return.

I generally throw the ball farther out into the court to put less topslice effect for a first serve and then bring it in to add more spin for a second.

As for speed, I often practice the serve and my topslice first serves hit the back fence at about the same height as my flat serves. My hitting coach always tells me to stop hitting flat serves because my topslice is harder for him to return.
 

Off The Wall

Semi-Pro
My hitting coach always tells me to stop hitting flat serves because my topslice is harder for him to return.

Your coach is right. Spin adds another dimension (sidewaysness) to deal with.

Use a power slice as an all-purpose serve.
 

NLBwell

Legend
No reason you can't hit any gradiation between the kick and the flat serve. Practice, practice, practice.
 

larry10s

Hall of Fame
i use a topspin /slice as my first and second serve most of the time.
ill hit a flat one for variety usally as a body serve
on the deuce court ill seve more slice when i want to go wide
and im still working on my kicker.
if you change grips smart opponents will pick up on that
probably all you need to do is toss more into the court and alittle more to the right that will probably give the swingpath for the serve without have=ing to change alot
 

TimothyO

Hall of Fame
Haven't really tried slice serve yet. Just looked it up at IntoSport and the toss mechanics certainly look easier than kick serve! :)

To NLB's point, with an easier toss a little to the front and maybe letting the ball drop somewhere between flat and kick serves and brushing 7/8 to 1/2 a "top-slice" should result?

How does racquet face work for follow through?
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Your coach is right. Spin adds another dimension (sidewaysness) to deal with.

Use a power slice as an all-purpose serve.

I also like the power slice, with 2 oclock spin as the all purpose, foundation serve.
Power slice means using pronation for spin vs using carving the shot.
 

mightyrick

Legend
I also like the power slice, with 2 oclock spin as the all purpose, foundation serve.
Power slice means using pronation for spin vs using carving the shot.

Is this true? The only difference I find between the top/slice and pure slice is toss location (and therefore swing path). I don't "carve" the shot and I don't consciously pronate differently for either serve.

Doesn't "carving" around the ball imply supination? I wouldn't think that is an acceptable practice on any serve (or any stroke) ever.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Is this true? The only difference I find between the top/slice and pure slice is toss location (and therefore swing path). I don't "carve" the shot and I don't consciously pronate differently for either serve.

Doesn't "carving" around the ball imply supination? I wouldn't think that is an acceptable practice on any serve (or any stroke) ever.

Maybe it does, but even some pros do it. I have seen WTA serves with that carving action, especially on windy days when the toss is off.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
A challenge we noobs face is consistency. I diligently head to the courts about three times a week just to hit serves alone. This does not include hitting with friends, team practice, weekly club events such as our Thursday night Fight Club, or formal match play. Just a basket of balls and about 50+ serves (sometimes about 100 but I've read that'snot good for over 40 shoulders.)

I can now hit a respectable kick serve in that it curves, dives, stays in, but has only ok pace. A level players would use it for target practice. Fellow B level players can return it but need to think about it. Recently I tried a full eastern back hand for kick serves and LOVE the results! In practice I can bomb serves into the corner near the net...sometimes! :)

My flat serve stinks. Getting better, but low enough percentage that I tend to avoid it in matches. I only pull it out enough to keep opponents honest. I'll even risk a point and use it as a second serve just so they don't assume the seond will be a kick serve.

Here'smy problem. I'd like to use my flat serve more to develop it under match conditions but I find switching between flat and kick rather difficult. I'm simply not good enough to hit a flat first serve followed by a second kick serve. Not enough muscle memory yet I suppose.

As I workon serves is there an all purpose serve technique between hard flat serve and monster bomb kick serves? Something like an extra spinny flat serve or flatter top spin serve that, using a single motion, is highly likely to go in with one or two attempts? If yes, is that accomplished primarily with grip or swing path? Or is this not adisable and one shoild simply stick with distinct flat and spin serves, especially as a noob?

In other words, is there a respectable all purpose B level serve that's reliable enough and fast enough to be used for both first and second serves? Any advice would be much appreciated. Last week I hurt my elbow and arm so I've barely been able to serve anyway (trying to serve during a match on Saturday was murder!). Later This week I intend to return to practiceand hope to give something like this a try.

Top slice.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Top slice. You can vary speed between a pressure second serve at 65 mph or go for a first serve with it at 95.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
yes and no, for me. Against hard hitters with bad footwork, I mix it up with a topspin/slice. Why? Because they overestimate it and end up hitting it out or into the net.

But generally, I use a kick for all-purpose, since I can curve it into the body or away from it (if I practice a lot, which I haven't had time to do)
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Is this true? The only difference I find between the top/slice and pure slice is toss location (and therefore swing path). I don't "carve" the shot and I don't consciously pronate differently for either serve.

Doesn't "carving" around the ball imply supination? I wouldn't think that is an acceptable practice on any serve (or any stroke) ever.

I don't think I'm going to pass judgement on the carving motion, but it is used quite a bit by rec players. I was not suggesting it, but more making sure he didn't think it was what I meant by slicing. Many rec players think that is how you slice.
I can't think of any time I use the carve, but I did when I was a beginner and intermediate.
 

TimothyO

Hall of Fame
Well, top slice is amazing! Tried it tonight just hitting serves and then in quick games with another club member. Thanks to everyone who provided input and especially larry10's diagram. That image provides the perfect visual for NLB's comment about gradations of serves.

Some immediate benefits relative to other serves...

- far simpler biomechanics than overhead kick serve...probably less likely to breakdown under game pressure

- those simpler biomechanics were also easier on my arm!

- more consistent than a flat serve but towards the end of my practice session I was able to put more pace than on my kick serve...wonderful balance between pace and safety

- unlike the kick serve this seemed to skid more and stay lower...combined with the insane curve path it's tougher to return...a weak kick serve can be a duck while that seems less likely with top slice

The advice in this thread was wonderful. That diagram plus advice really demonstrates how toss angle, swing path, and height relates to serve pace, spin, and difficulty. Looking forward to exploring the toss zone and swing path bewteen full slice and flat! Tonight I toyed with a toss angle close to full slice, moderate drop/contact point, and "diagonal" swing pathf for both top and side spin. Great fun and I see what folks are saying about carving vs proper swing. I did carve the ball few times which made the curve more extreme but cost pace and consistency. Focusing on a proper stroke regained pace and accuracy.
 
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mightyrick

Legend
I did carve the ball few times which made the curve more extreme but cost pace and consistency. Focusing on a proper stroke regained pace and accuracy.

Yeah, good lesson. DON'T CARVE. You don't need to. If you get enough racquet head speed on the top slice, that thing will break several feet... dive down into the service box... and have a lot of pace.

Like you said, if you carve, you basically kill all the pace and increase the chances of netting the ball.
 

TimothyO

Hall of Fame
Yeah, good lesson. DON'T CARVE. You don't need to. If you get enough racquet head speed on the top slice, that thing will break several feet... dive down into the service box... and have a lot of pace.

Like you said, if you carve, you basically kill all the pace and increase the chances of netting the ball.

The carve thing first happened "naturally" during a bad/wide toss. It felt cool at first but after a few deliberate shots like that I realized I couldn't repeat the shot consistently or with pace.

So then I REALLY focused on a solid toss with good stretch, proper swing path, and shoulder turn. WOW! It was like a curvey, sliding flat serve in terms of pace but it dipped down into the service box. I can see the allure of a carving motion but it seems like a bad short cut best avoided.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Well, top slice is amazing! Tried it tonight just hitting serves and then in quick games with another club member. Thanks to everyone who provided input and especially larry10's diagram. That image provides the perfect visual for NLB's comment about gradations of serves.

Some immediate benefits relative to other serves...

- far simpler biomechanics than overhead kick serve...probably less likely to breakdown under game pressure

- those simpler biomechanics were also easier on my arm!

- more consistent than a flat serve but towards the end of my practice session I was able to put more pace than on my kick serve...wonderful balance between pace and safety

- unlike the kick serve this seemed to skid more and stay lower...combined with the insane curve path it's tougher to return...a weak kick serve can be a duck while that seems less likely with top slice

The advice in this thread was wonderful. That diagram plus advice really demonstrates how toss angle, swing path, and height relates to serve pace, spin, and difficulty. Looking forward to exploring the toss zone and swing path bewteen full slice and flat! Tonight I toyed with a toss angle close to full slice, moderate drop/contact point, and "diagonal" swing pathf for both top and side spin. Great fun and I see what folks are saying about carving vs proper swing. I did carve the ball few times which made the curve more extreme but cost pace and consistency. Focusing on a proper stroke regained pace and accuracy.

You should explore the top slice serve some day
 

limitup

Professional
Wouldn't the "top slice" be the same as a kick? Basically swinging and hitting the ball at about a 45 degree angle from 7/8 oclock to about 1/2 oclock??
 
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Andres

G.O.A.T.
Wouldn't the "top slice" be the same as a kick? Basically swinging and hitting the ball at about a 45 degree angle from 7/8 oclock to about 1/2 oclock??
Nope. If a pure slice is 3 to 9, a pure topspin is 6 to 12, a kickserve would be from 7/8 to 1/2, and a top slice would be from 4/5 to 10/11 ;)
 

limitup

Professional
Nope. If a pure slice is 3 to 9, a pure topspin is 6 to 12, a kickserve would be from 7/8 to 1/2, and a top slice would be from 4/5 to 10/11 ;)

A pure slice is 3 to 9? Are you a lefty?? And if you are, how would your kick serve be from 7/8 to 1/2????
 

Blake0

Hall of Fame
A couple serves you should learn; on the deuce side learn a kick and a slice serve down the T(righties). The slice serve that curves into the body is a great change up that is usually a weak response/shank/miss from your "level B" player. The kick serve down the T, especially against 1hbh players, is really good to use as well.

A slice serve and topspin-slice is a good consistent serve to use, especially if you can place the ball everywhere in the box, not just out wide.
 

Andres

G.O.A.T.
A pure slice is 3 to 9? Are you a lefty?? And if you are, how would your kick serve be from 7/8 to 1/2????
Sorry, you're right. This clock analogy always confused me.

clockballsm.jpg


What I meant was the contact point. A pure topspin, should be hit from low to high, which I always understood as 6 to 12. Slice serves require that you hit the outside of the ball (3 o'clock position for righties and 9 o'clock position for lefties)

For kickers, my contact point is around 7/8 pm, and hit through the ball pretty much diagonally and upwards. My top slice is like a slice serve, but with an extra topspin (or low to high) component, so the contact point is around 4/5 o' clock

How to swing actually goes? I always got those numbers backwards.
 

larry10s

Hall of Fame
Sorry, you're right. This clock analogy always confused me.

clockballsm.jpg


What I meant was the contact point. A pure topspin, should be hit from low to high, which I always understood as 6 to 12. Slice serves require that you hit the outside of the ball (3 o'clock position for righties and 9 o'clock position for lefties)

For kickers, my contact point is around 7/8 pm, and hit through the ball pretty much diagonally and upwards. My top slice is like a slice serve, but with an extra topspin (or low to high) component, so the contact point is around 4/5 o' clock

How to swing actually goes? I always got those numbers backwards.

i think of the topspin slice as contact more in the middle(not 7/8) towards 2

the 2 gives some slice the middle give middle up to 2 gives topspin

since the toss isnt behind me i cant get to 7/8 like with the kicker

4/5:confused: makes no scence to me
 

limitup

Professional
The clock analogy is used to describe the direction of the racquet face at contact, not where you hit the ball. You pretty much want to hit the ball in the middle most of the time. If you hit the ball at 3 or 9 it would go flying sideways and not over the net.
 

larry10s

Hall of Fame
The clock analogy is used to describe the direction of the racquet face at contact, not where you hit the ball. You pretty much want to hit the ball in the middle most of the time. If you hit the ball at 3 or 9 it would go flying sideways and not over the net.

not necessarily true (imho)
it would depend on the swingpath
if the swingpath was up and hit it at 3 oclock yes it would go sideways but over the net and be a wicked slice serve
again jmho
icbw
 

Andres

G.O.A.T.
The clock analogy is used to describe the direction of the racquet face at contact, not where you hit the ball. You pretty much want to hit the ball in the middle most of the time. If you hit the ball at 3 or 9 it would go flying sideways and not over the net.
Oh really??? hahahahahaha thank you. I finally understand the clock analogy!

Well, regarding the topspin slice, imagine the swingpath of the slice serve. You see how its pretty much the opposite of the kickserve? A top slice is like a slice serve with extra topspin. So you alter the swingpath into a more vertical direction.

A kicker breaks to the right for a righty server. Break to the left of the receiver. A top slice keeps breaking left, but bounces higher than a pure slice, and dips earlier.
 
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