Second serve without the kick

[dgold44]

Always wished I had a kick second serve but I have to the flat or slice second. Of course this leads to more double faults than I like and sometimes I have to just get my first serve in if I am not serving well.

I tried kick serves but could not master it. I grew up with slice and flat shots. The kick serve I noticed the players toss the ball more back and to the left. I cannot do it and my arm is not good enough to practice it.

So do you serve with a flat or slice second serve. Not ideal . I double fault about 6-7 times a match and it sucks.

 

[Heisenberg]

You should still be able to get some topspin and have an increased margin of error to hit higher over the net if you have a decent slice serve.

By far the most effective thing for me has been to conciously stay side on for as long as possible. Also using a "super" conti grip (slight eastern backhand).

These vids helped me.

Oh, and dont give up on it. I think the kick serve is the most difficult skill to pick up in tennis. But its rewarding when you do. Having that ability to drop in a serve at will will change your game.

 

[GuyClinch]

Kick isn't like something you learn then you have it. It's really about having good RHS - and just tweaking your slice serve some. If you can hit a good slice you can just increase the upward angle and contact the ball earlier in your swing - and the ball will have some topspin. It won't have actual kick unless you hit a bit of the ball and have good RHS though. I like the Heath Waters video. But I feel the brent Abel video is better for your average low level rec player..

Great drill for rec players like me. Totally helped me..I do it all the time.

 

[zaph]

To be fair there are very few players at rec level who can hit a kick serve or even a topspin serve. Most just dolly it, hit a flat serve or slice it. The dolly serve is too easy to hit. The flat serve is double fault baiting and the slice serve is risky and a bit weak. I tend to be able to tee off against slice second serves, they are a bit predictable.

Now I have a weak serve, however the one serve I have recently managed to master is the kick. It is the only one I can do properly.

I doubt my technique is correct, there is no disguise on it for a start. Still this is how I do it. The ball toss I use is the standard one in front of the left shoulder. Tossing to the left helps, but you can do it without that.

The important bit is this take back. Don't rush this, get in the trophey position, then get your racket as far down you back as possible. Basically I pull my right shoulder down while keeping my left up. Bend legs if poss. Once again do not rush this, not enough of this take back tends to lead to a flat serve.

Then throw your rack up at the ball, with a loose arm. The power comes from your body, the arm kind of goes up naturally by itself into the right position.

The next bit is difficult to explain, you need to get on a court and try it yourself to get a feel for it. You have to "delay", can't find a better description, you body turn into the court. Turn too early and you get slice instead of kick. I can't really explain it better than that. Oh and as you contact the ball use your wrist to bring the racket over it.

Poor description I know, but it does work. I can get the ball to bounce high and shoot forward. Doubt it will trouble a good player, but it works OK for my level.

Now if I could just learn the other serves.

 

[Lance L]

Seriously, you can't give up on a topspin serve.(I call it topspin usually, a kick serve to me is a really special topspin serve).
At the rec level a topspin serve is probably the single most valuable shot you can have. I seldom double fault. Topspin serves are hard to read, I quite often use it for both first and second. Unlike a flater serve, you can't just stick your racquet in front of the ball and block it back, you have to read it up and down as well, a lot harder.

Learning the topspin serve: take it in little pieces. The real concept to get it really hitting up on the ball at contact. There are plenty of videos, look for "Kick serve progressions", like that.
Give yourself at least a year, this is not a quick thing to learn.

 

[LeeD]

I don't think everyone needs a kick, or high bouncing serve.
Take away the kick, you need to learn to place your slices well, to either side, and also spinning into the body of the returner. If they can handle all 3 targets, they're already playing 4.0+ tennis, so learn to vary the speed of your slices, and use the low slice more often on first serve to increase your percentage and avoid the second serve.
For sure, without one big weapon in your battery, you have to be prepared to defend against a good ROServe, so get ready after serving, be balanced after serving, and pay attention to the returner's tendencies.

 

[tennisdad65]

You do not need a Twist serve, but you definitely need a Topspin serve. It is an easy serve to get in very consistently and with decent pace/spin. Stay sidewards, toss on or slightly ahead of front shoulder and spin the ball. Very loose grip is the key. I actually have my pinky off the grip (i.e. hold racquet with 4 fingers)

 

[GuyClinch]

You do not need a Twist serve, but you definitely need a Topspin serve. It is an easy serve to get in very consistently and with decent pace/spin. Stay sidewards, toss on or slightly ahead of front shoulder and spin the ball. Very loose grip is the key. I actually have my pinky off the grip (i.e. hold racquet with 4 fingers)

The serve types aren't so definite.. Most serves have elements of slice and topspin. Dial up more topspin for your second serve.. Its very hard to get a serve in with pure topspin..even the pros aren't hitting that. You can hit a very reliable topspin/slice serve. A real kick features you coming up on the inside of the ball a little (much easier to do the ad side IMHO) and a crap ton of racquet head speed. (The real reason why kick serves are so 'tough' for people IMHO).

Some players just seem unable to be able to add more topspin to their serve. It's like a mental block or something. I frankly don't get it. A friend of mine - she hits a very nice first serve.. but topspin? Its like she just doesn't get it..

 

[corneliuscobb]

I don't think everyone needs a kick, or high bouncing serve.

This guy does - he doubled faulted 7 times in only 3 service games!

 

[LeeD]

Good one, and everyone wonder's why every thread get's my stamp on it........
Aberation, it's gotta happen once every 5 years anyway.
Have managed THREE in a set since, not paying attention, mind wandering. That day, maybe mind just wasn't...... Didn't DF in the doublles.

 

[corneliuscobb]

Aberation, it's gotta happen once every 5 years anyway.

Yeah, 5 years ago was probably when you last played a match....

 

[jaxadam]

Finally, a legit 4.0 video.

 

[LeeD]

With Matt, it was one set. Not a match to me. All the doubles guys were waiting to play on that court.
I played Noah, and most people in Berkeley know him, No.3 on Montclair's 4.5 team, 2 arranged sets. He's in real estate, so only plays 3 times a week, but his normal partner couldn't play that day, so I was the chosen victim. 2 weeks ago. That was the last singles I"ve played. Week before that, I played one of the local league 4.0's (he's doubles, so not so good) 2 easy sets. Easy for me, not for him.

 

[corneliuscobb]

With Matt, it was one set. Not a match to me. All the doubles guys were waiting to play on that court.
I played Noah, and most people in Berkeley know him, No.3 on Montclair's 4.5 team, 2 arranged sets. He's in real estate, so only plays 3 times a week, but his normal partner couldn't play that day, so I was the chosen victim. 2 weeks ago. That was the last singles I"ve played. Week before that, I played one of the local league 4.0's (he's doubles, so not so good) 2 easy sets. Easy for me, not for him.

You're rubbish. You're just all exaggerated internet talk.

 

[LeeD]

Strong words.
I'll bet, every guy who's ever hit with me would say you're kinda unbalanced upstairs. Since those guys have hit with me, and you haven't, who would know better?
I've listed the guys, are you calling them liars?

 

[corneliuscobb]

Strong words.
I'll bet, every guy who's ever hit with me would say you're kinda unbalanced upstairs. Since those guys have hit with me, and you haven't, who would know better?
I've listed the guys, are you calling them liars?

I'm saying you're rubbish at tennis, and that you constantly giving 'advice' to people is just embarrassing.

 

[LeeD]

You're free to say what you want, but anyone who reads your comments, and then some of my advice, will know you are just a newbie with no brains in your head.

 

[LakeSnake]

I am learning a topspin serve and mine look sort of like Brent's there, almost semi-lobs. I had a lady try to give me some advice because she didn't realize I was hitting it that way intentionally. To me, the serve is very similar to a slice serve. But I can't hit a flat serve at all.

 

[GuyClinch]

I am learning a topspin serve and mine look sort of like Brent's there, almost semi-lobs. I had a lady try to give me some advice because she didn't realize I was hitting it that way intentionally. To me, the serve is very similar to a slice serve. But I can't hit a flat serve at all.

I hear you. Flat serve is tough if you try not to open up to early and pancake it. Slice serve is the easiest IMHO. I can hit the spins - but I don't have the RHS..I have a hitch..
It doesn't really matter against the people I play..But I'd like for my serve to be a lot bigger..

 

[corneliuscobb]

You're free to say what you want, but anyone who reads your comments, and then some of my advice, will know you are just a newbie with no brains in your head.

You can't even play. From your video, it's clear that you've never been higher than 3.5 - 4.0.

 

[corneliuscobb]

You can't even play. From your video, it's clear that you've never been higher than 3.5 - 4.0.

.....and that's on a good day!

 

[Flatballs]

There is no way in the world anyone who serves 3 doubles in a row is a 4.0.

This is 2.5 stuff.

 

[jga111]

I think the kick serve is mandatory for all tennis enthusiasts that want to play at rec+ competitive level. I was taught the basic motion by my coach (please refer to one of my threads) a while ago and was able to execute a simple kick serve from a very choreographed motion. Its been 1 month now and I'm still working on it today. During club sessions I use this more as my 1st and 2nd serve so I can have more practice, trying to kick it with more RHS and a fluid motion. Sometimes I get the kick right and see the returner having all sorts of trouble with it. Probably happening 20/30% of the time now but I can really see the benefits. A definite for me and I only intend on improving...

 

[villis]

There is no way in the world anyone who serves 3 doubles in a row is a 4.0.

This is 2.5 stuff.

HA, Rusedski served 5 doubles in a row (3 in a row in one game). Sure, he was not 4.0 either...

 

[mbm0912]

 

[LeeD]

Lots of LeeD interest.
I was booted up to B, or 4.5, in 1978 after winning a big draw C tourney. It was my second ever tourney, I lost in the finals of the first, the Golden Gate Park annual spring event.

 

[hieu1811]

lol, the Federer video is hilarious.

 

[dgold44]

My old pros told me to just toss the ball slightly back and that should be enough for my level of play. Simple and not fancy.

They told me to stay more sideways and do not pull it around like a flat serve as many of you said. They said just toss it several inches back only to like nose level??

 

[dgold44]

Funny my last 4.0 match the guy I played had a super return of serve. He was crushing my second serve to dust. My only action was to get my first serve in deep to avoid him seeing second serves.
This work as he stopped crushing my second serve. My first serve has always be pretty good flat one

 

[Tight Lines]

You can't even play. From your video, it's clear that you've never been higher than 3.5 - 4.0.

Corneliuscobb, do you even play tennis? Your comments are quite frankly just vile with no knowledge of tennis to boot. From the video, LeeD can definitely play. What has LeeD ever done to you to be be so hostile towards him? You and that flatball dude...

Harry

 

[LeeD]

I used to watch A/Open level tennis at Golden Gate Park. In those days, few players used a true twist or kick type second serve, but most did use some form of top/slice for a safe second serve that bounced around upper chest high.
Nowadaze, a lot of younger strong 4.0+ player's can crush this shot, if it isn't placed well, so having a good slice, or a higher twist/kick works well against them.
Don't think Dr.Ivo uses a twist/kick, but most ATP guys do. Less than a handful of WTA players use it.

 

[movdqa]

There is no way in the world anyone who serves 3 doubles in a row is a 4.0.

This is 2.5 stuff.

The 11th-seeded Dimitrov, with his girlfriend Maria Sharapova watching from his guest box on Centre Court, came in with a 10-match winning streak and had been seeking to become the first Bulgarian to advance to a major final. He pushed Djokovic to the limit but hurt his chances with eight double-faults -- including three in a row in one game.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2014...imbledon-final-four-years/52004/#.VbA0LvmcNmM

Bulgarian Dimitrov, who also has a chance to qualify for the season-ending tournament, destroyed Uruguay's Pablo Cuevas 6-0 6-3.

"He gave me a good start," Murray told reporters. "He served three double faults in a row in his first service game.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/murray-one-step-closer-london-paris-win-151842976--ten.html

At the Indian Wells tournament in California in March, Dimitrov, a Bulgarian, lost to Djokovic after making four double-faults in a row when serving for the first set. In almost a copycat performance a week later in Miami, Dimitrov lined up another three double-faults when he was on the verge of winning the first set against Andy Murray, who eventually also knocked him out. On clay, Dimitrov came close to another upset, this time against Rafael Nadal last month in Monte Carlo. But Dimitrov ended up a loser again after the Spaniard broke his serve in the closing stages of the last set.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/sports/tennis/09iht-net09.html

The man wearing holding the flare was grabbed by security guards as he tried to get onto the court right behind Nadal’s bench as the Spaniard was about to serve for the second set at 5-1. Nadal, who jumped away as guards took hold of the man, seemed shaken as he promptly lost his serve. Ferrer then dropped his serve and the set on three double faults in a row.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ts-ferrer-to-win-historic-eighth-french-title

Kyrgios made three costly double faults in one game as he was serving at 5-4 and dropped the first set with 5-7.

http://www.ubitennis.com/english/20...ios-fights-back-from-set-down-to-beat-raonic/

Everybody has bad days.

 

[Kalin]

I disagree with the predominant opinion here that you should work hard to improve your kick/topspin serve when obviously it doesn't come natural to you. IMO, a good slice serve beats a bad kick every time, especially at the 3.5-4.0 level. If you really find it difficult to hit a good kick then you're better off spending the time working on your slice. You can always try adding some top to it later when you're completely comfortable with it but, as the video below will show, it is not absolutely necessary.

The slice also has the advantage that it can be used both as a first and a second serve. A hard, swerving slice wide to the deuce court is a devastating weapon; Federer loves to hit it as do many other pros. It's a much easier serve to learn than a hard, twisting kick. For added spin and better margin of error on the second serve, just move your grip a shade towards Eastern Backhand. So basically you can hit a first serve with a conti grip and a second with a EB rip while using exactly the same movement.

Rafa Nadal's serve is a good example; it is predominantly slice with just a little top. Yes, he is helped by being a lefty but he also has to negotiate the likes of Djokovic and Murray whom we don't get to meet that often

Here's an excellent video. Ignore the 'beginner' tag, this is a great drill. He also talks about top-slice but it is pretty much a classic slice serve he is showing; he also explains how having the correct toss placement and the correct racquet path takes care of the up-down axis which a 'pure' slice theoretically lacks:

Also, the classic 'Cylinder Drill' by the Serve Doctor is great for slice serves... you can actually serve like this during a match for extreme consistency:

 

[Tight Lines]

It doesn't always have to be an either extreme. The slice serve is not a high percentage serve for a second serve IMO. Why not compromise and just hit a top/slice serve? That would be much safer.

Harry

 

[movdqa]

The slice serve can be high percentage if you don't use a lot of pace.

 

[LeeD]

Dr. Ivo uses slice.
Most WTA player's only slice their second serves.

 

[GuyClinch]

It doesn't always have to be an either extreme. The slice serve is not a high percentage serve for a second serve IMO. Why not compromise and just hit a top/slice serve? That would be much safer.

Not only does it not have to be - it almost never is. Outside of the most extreme slice serves - most have top on them. And a slice serve with alot of top is often called a kicker - even though technically it is not quite there yet.. If you go kinda up and across the back of the ball - thats a top slice - go to second serve for most players. You have to go kinda up the inside of the ball to get that kinda screw ball spin to hit a true kicker. But you want to learn to hit some top on your second serve - and Lee D does this. He was just pressing because of the huge skill gap - with Matt being a strong 5.0 and LeeD a weak 4.0 that relies on moxie and not technique..

 

[LeeD]

Regardless of my level of serving, 80% of WTA use pure slice for their second serves, and a pretty high percentage of their first serves. Only a handful in the top 200 actually hit a true topspin second serve, or a twist. Even Stosur is hitting more and more slice serves, and less and less twists.

 

[WildVolley]

Dr. Ivo uses slice.

Dr. Ivo is basically 7' tall. That's not going to be great advice for someone who is much shorter.

 

[LeeD]

Isner is 6'10", uses twist, kicks, and topspin FIRST serves at times.
Milos is a midget, but hit's twists, kicks.
Anderson is 6'9", hit's twists, tops, and kickers.
Querry is 6'6", his twists not so great, so mostly flats and slices with a little top.
All of WTA is shorter than 6'3", and 90% hit with just slice on the second serves.

 

[dgold44]

I can hit slice/topspin 4.0 second serves.

I cannot hit a pure twist or pure topspin.
I could practice hours a day but my arm would be destroyed!!!

 

[LeeD]

Trick here is ....nobody practices twist serves for "hours a day".
Serve like that, you try maybe 20 a day, less in the beginning, for a few months before you get an idea of where to toss, how to stand, how to swing, where to aim.

 

[RanchDressing]

Does everyone on here just resort to saying the other person has never played, and is terrible etc? So far, out of the videos I've seen nobody here is a pro by any means.

 

[oble]

I can hit slice/topspin 4.0 second serves.

I cannot hit a pure twist or pure topspin.
I could practice hours a day but my arm would be destroyed!!!

Topspin slice is fine for a second serve as long as you can keep it in consistently. Well placed topspin slice second serve works wonders regardless.

 

[dgold44]

oble, maybe this Saturday I will go over to the club and serve for 30 minutes. Any more than that my arm goes DEAD for 3 days.
I actually double faulted 6 times in my first 2 service games last week lol. This was my first match playing with poly strings so I was not hitting hard enough on seconds.

 

[dgold44]

This board does have some 5.0 to 5.5 players!!!!

I am not one of those but my profile says I am a "semi-pro", but I have yet to play a futures event lol

 

[oble]

oble, maybe this Saturday I will go over to the club and serve for 30 minutes. Any more than that my arm goes DEAD for 3 days.

Interesting. Sounds like a technique issue if you can't practise serving for more than 30 minutes, or you're swinging for the fences on every serve without proper warm-up.

 

[movdqa]

Trick here is ....nobody practices twist serves for "hours a day".
Serve like that, you try maybe 20 a day, less in the beginning, for a few months before you get an idea of where to toss, how to stand, how to swing, where to aim.

Probably a good way to mess up your back.

 

[dgold44]

oble, I have had some 5.5 players give me serving lessons. They did bring me up from 3.5 to 4.0 but I cant see to get beyond that.
I think my biggest problem is the fact I never learned the back scratch position and seem to only bring the racket to behind my neck. I do a good job getting into the trophy position I have been told then all hell happens.

 

[dgold44]

And the trophy position is something I just learned last summer after 20 plus years of playing. When I was a kid all they taught was groundies and top spin and nothing else and forgot the serve.