At least I am not one of those club players with a coaching certificate claiming Pat means 8 to 12 when he says 11 to 4.
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anyone tried the 11 to 5 "Rafter kicker"?
- Thread starter Rozroz
- Start date
At least I am not one of those club players with a coaching certificate claiming Pat means 8 to 12 when he says 11 to 4.
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
rufus_smith
Professional
That video and Pat Rafter was fascinating. He is a great role model. His serve is great but I'm not sure what make of his serve motion since it seems so different than other pros and from classic teaching. His motion seems abbreviated and he hops up very little, if at all. He seems to hold his toss arm a long time. Is his grip pure continental or what? I won't even get into the clock face stuff. I'll give the motion a try today but I doubt i'll do it right at all.
arche3
Banned
Your one without a certificate claiming a 5? degree tilt on a serve. And hitting down. Lol. When its happening too fast to even see.
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
This is funny. Too bad all those threads with your feud with Oscar Wegner are all gone now.
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Thanks Rufus! Re: your grip question, Pat uses a continental.
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
rufus_smith, Monfils serves similar to Rafter as did Roddick. Tsonga has an abbreviated motion as well, just not as much. There's been quite a few pro's on both men's and women's tour who've used this motion. I believe Chela did as well at one time. Anyways, it simplifies things for some people and keeps them better balanced I've found in my own coaching. I've taught a serve similar to this on a few occasions and its worked great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGtBSuckrLY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGtBSuckrLY
Cheetah
Hall of Fame
I'm just assuming here but I think those who don't understand what Pat means when he says 11-4 probably don't have 'good' mechanics on their serve and are probably slapping the ball or arming it etc etc..
Pat is contacting the ball at 11 or thereabouts. the racquet continues to go up towards 12 and then during the follow through the racquet heads down towards 4. If you look at where he makes contact and follow the racquet path all the way to the end of the swing you can see the total path the racquet has made is an around-the-big-clock 11-4 type of motion. (not the small clock depicted in the pic above) If you swing that way with decent rhs and fundamentally sound pronation- even though the ball has left your racquet at 11:30ish it will indeed actually FEEL like you are carving around the ball with your racquet from 11-4. It's not a slap feel. It feels as if the ball is on your racquet for a long time.
Pat is contacting the ball at 11 or thereabouts. the racquet continues to go up towards 12 and then during the follow through the racquet heads down towards 4. If you look at where he makes contact and follow the racquet path all the way to the end of the swing you can see the total path the racquet has made is an around-the-big-clock 11-4 type of motion. (not the small clock depicted in the pic above) If you swing that way with decent rhs and fundamentally sound pronation- even though the ball has left your racquet at 11:30ish it will indeed actually FEEL like you are carving around the ball with your racquet from 11-4. It's not a slap feel. It feels as if the ball is on your racquet for a long time.
arche3
Banned
Yeah those were some classic posts from sureshs. The detail and science he posted was indeed worthy of a ymca tennis coach certificate.
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
Try keeping your racket strings on the ball at 11, up and around 12 and back down all the way to *5* as Pat does. Magical. You're just slapping by releasing the ball at 4.
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
YMCA tennis coach certificate haha that's classic, I gotta use that!
So you are saying the ball leaves the strings before the apex of the swing is reached.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
Yeah I have been serving a lot like that lately. Lots of spin and a bit of a side kick to it off the bounce. It is a finish more to the side like Salzenstein's video.
There seems to be nothing like that. The only references are to YMCA tennis coaches who have USPTA/USPTR certification.
Don't believe arche3. He just follows me around from thread to thread trolling me. He will even say the opposite of what he believes just so that he can argue with me.
arche3
Banned
![url]](http://[url]http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/huh-yea.gif[/url])
OK I'll bite - what do you see?
Cheetah
Hall of Fame
what's the speed of will's camera?
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
mucat
Hall of Fame
Damn, if I got a chance to talk to Rafter for 20 min, I will probably just giggle the whole time (like a schoolgirl).
I totally understand what Rafter was talking about because that's how I serve. All topspin serves, all the time, but they are different every single time, pace, depth, angle of spin, amount of spin, placement, all different every time. I guess that's the beauty of spin serve, they are all different.
I totally understand what Rafter was talking about because that's how I serve. All topspin serves, all the time, but they are different every single time, pace, depth, angle of spin, amount of spin, placement, all different every time. I guess that's the beauty of spin serve, they are all different.
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Seems the same to me, and Pat didn't say he changed something since he retired. Obviously, he's not the athlete he once was so maybe that has something to do with the difference in appearance.
Thanks for the reply, Will.
I watched both Cash and Rafter lots back in the '80's, and it seems to me that both guys would twist wide serves to the backhand on ad court, mostly bouncing the ball around 6'+ at the baseline, sometimes higher, to illicit a weaker return so they can volley a slower moving ball.
On this current vid, both first and second serves barely clear the net, and have low bounces for a topspin or top/kick serve from a guy 6'3" tall.
I'd expect, for a video demo, that Pat would hit his highest kicking twist serves, which he should be able to do a few times before the back gives out.
I watched both Cash and Rafter lots back in the '80's, and it seems to me that both guys would twist wide serves to the backhand on ad court, mostly bouncing the ball around 6'+ at the baseline, sometimes higher, to illicit a weaker return so they can volley a slower moving ball.
On this current vid, both first and second serves barely clear the net, and have low bounces for a topspin or top/kick serve from a guy 6'3" tall.
I'd expect, for a video demo, that Pat would hit his highest kicking twist serves, which he should be able to do a few times before the back gives out.
1. Both serves in the video were from the deuce court
2. The second serve kicked up pretty good - see where it hits the back fence.
Cheetah
Hall of Fame
Yes. That's what I think.
Pat's second serve was cut off before it hit the backfence.
The low net clearance clues you in on the low bounce. During his playing days, and Cash's, their net clearance was well over 2' above the net when they kicked second serves ...as a first serve.
Sure, a pure second serve clears the net by less, but should not be net skimmers like those shown in the current vid.
I'd expect Rafter's second serve to kick up around 6' at the baseline, and higher when it's intended as a first serve. He's like 6'3" tall, a monster with huge legs for upwards drive.
The low net clearance clues you in on the low bounce. During his playing days, and Cash's, their net clearance was well over 2' above the net when they kicked second serves ...as a first serve.
Sure, a pure second serve clears the net by less, but should not be net skimmers like those shown in the current vid.
I'd expect Rafter's second serve to kick up around 6' at the baseline, and higher when it's intended as a first serve. He's like 6'3" tall, a monster with huge legs for upwards drive.
OK I got it now.
We are talking about different videos. This is the slow motion one mentioned earlier by WiH:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsY5uRqTOEI
Here they are:
Rafter’s first serve
Rafter’s second serve
IMO practically all Rafter “feeling” explanations about brushing and carving a ball are wrong.
To carve the ball he should use arm supination around contact, but he applies arm pronation. He also definitely doesn’t brush the ball from 11 to 5 especially in second serve.
Rozroz
G.O.A.T.
Here they are:
Rafter’s first serve
Rafter’s second serve
IMO practically all Rafter “feeling” explanations about brushing and carving a ball are wrong.
To carve the ball he should use arm supination around contact, but he applies arm pronation. He also definitely doesn’t brush the ball from 11 to 5 especially in second serve.
thanks toly!!!
that pronation that starts at 25 frame 1st serve is just impossible for me to produce! yes i watched every video i found that teaches this... gotta learn it.
and also it indeed looks like the ball is really hit at the 11 mark more or less.
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Just remembered...
Pat has a slight quad pull at the time, and he hit these serves late on the second day after tweaking his quad. So he wasn't 100%
Still a pretty good serve though... I'd take it!
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
toly, just stop please.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
I like how toly just disproved his pancake argument from a few months back with that series of pictures.
Who you talking about? That was dozu. He went on about pancakes, then when I posted a theory about flat serves (hit with pronated conti) hit towards the tip of the racket as having an extended flight path, dozu claimed it was the pancake serve he had been talking about.
toly is a very scientific guy who used to be an engineer. He also has the most delicate strokes in the world.
He is right that carving would invoke an image of supination, not pronation. I have yet to see someone carve a cake with his palm pointed away from his body.
chunlimeyers
Rookie
Ok, after a lot of bickering and over complication, I am going to hope to help simplify this serve. When I would try the "7 to 1" kick serve, my CONTACT POINT of the serve would always be TOO HIGH. This caused the ball to go, well, 3 feet, 6 feet, maybe even farther past the service line! It sucked.
As my best serve was always my first serve or flat serve, my brain always wants to hit the ball at its HIGHEST POINT at extension for power and to get it over the net.
So, this is why I picked this serve up soo easily. I can now have that same high contact point, but now hit another variation with nasty spin!
For those who have nice kick serves. Well, keep them. Your contact point is much lower, your toss is much more "above your head", and surely your back is more arched. I, at 6' 2" tall, am doing this all by tossing at nearly my same 1 foot in front, 1 foot to the right flat serve spot(and my back has next to no arch), yet my racket path follow through is more down and around, as in Pats 11 to 4 visualization (vs. my flat serve that pronates forward torwards the net first and then ends down to my left side)
Jeff Salzenstein shows and exaggerates this around the body follow through on what he is calling a slice serve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqfQ8yXQGlk
If you take away the tricky "11 to 4" thing, and simply watch Pat or Jeff(or many touring pros second serve swing paths) you will notice that is where Pat got his "11 to 4"(I always hated this ball as a clock thing, as it makes you think in a 2d plane, while all swings are in a 3d plane, which Pat does show and tries to convey)
Oh, and lastly, swing fast, swing very, very fast. If not the ball won't have enough spin to bring it down into the court and float on you (Did this to me the first 4 plus serves playing doubles yesterday) until i got mad and just swung faster and then it was money all day!
Good luck.
As my best serve was always my first serve or flat serve, my brain always wants to hit the ball at its HIGHEST POINT at extension for power and to get it over the net.
So, this is why I picked this serve up soo easily. I can now have that same high contact point, but now hit another variation with nasty spin!
For those who have nice kick serves. Well, keep them. Your contact point is much lower, your toss is much more "above your head", and surely your back is more arched. I, at 6' 2" tall, am doing this all by tossing at nearly my same 1 foot in front, 1 foot to the right flat serve spot(and my back has next to no arch), yet my racket path follow through is more down and around, as in Pats 11 to 4 visualization (vs. my flat serve that pronates forward torwards the net first and then ends down to my left side)
Jeff Salzenstein shows and exaggerates this around the body follow through on what he is calling a slice serve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqfQ8yXQGlk
If you take away the tricky "11 to 4" thing, and simply watch Pat or Jeff(or many touring pros second serve swing paths) you will notice that is where Pat got his "11 to 4"(I always hated this ball as a clock thing, as it makes you think in a 2d plane, while all swings are in a 3d plane, which Pat does show and tries to convey)
Oh, and lastly, swing fast, swing very, very fast. If not the ball won't have enough spin to bring it down into the court and float on you (Did this to me the first 4 plus serves playing doubles yesterday) until i got mad and just swung faster and then it was money all day!
Good luck.
I mentioned a few days ago that I lost my twist serve completeley.....
I wonder if it's something to do with my ever increasingly heavier rackets, and SWeights. Heavier weight slows down my up and out swing, but the serves are landing short mostly, reducing the bounce height to around shoulder high, instead of kicking into uncomfortable zones.
OTOH, one of my old practice buds, used a really SLOW swingspeed, super high twist serve (OK, maybe only 6' high) to win SanFrancisco's high school championships and work his way to #4 for CanadaCollege his freshman year.
Maybe it's really all in technique.
I wonder if it's something to do with my ever increasingly heavier rackets, and SWeights. Heavier weight slows down my up and out swing, but the serves are landing short mostly, reducing the bounce height to around shoulder high, instead of kicking into uncomfortable zones.
OTOH, one of my old practice buds, used a really SLOW swingspeed, super high twist serve (OK, maybe only 6' high) to win SanFrancisco's high school championships and work his way to #4 for CanadaCollege his freshman year.
Maybe it's really all in technique.
psv255
Professional
There is a difference between visualizing, feeling, and observing in tennis.
Near contact:
You may visualize carving.
You may feel like your swing moves 11 to 4, and you're catching and releasing (or, if it works for you, carving) the ball just before you hit 12.
You are observing no actual carving, just a racquet approaching the ball with a good enough margin of hitting the strings, and then coming up and across the ball, following through to the side.
Visualization and feel that is different from what you observe is fine, as long as it creates the desired result time after time.
Relinquis
Hall of Fame
you won't be able to see a "carving" of the ball... it's a feel thing that allows you to hit through the ball a bit in addition to spin... so you bring a lot more volume through contact then if you were just brushing the back of the ball... gives you more pace in addition to the spin, i.e. a heavy ball...
hold an apply in your hand... carve from once side to the other with a knife... you will feel that you have to go through the apple more than if you were simply brushing the apple with the knife...
this is bro-science, i.e. more art than anything... just a description, analogy, metaphor, mental cue... not a description of the actual physics involved...
read disclaimer...
hold an apply in your hand... carve from once side to the other with a knife... you will feel that you have to go through the apple more than if you were simply brushing the apple with the knife...
this is bro-science, i.e. more art than anything... just a description, analogy, metaphor, mental cue... not a description of the actual physics involved...
read disclaimer...
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I don’t know the answer, due to it isn't a scientific approach.
psv255
Professional
I don’t know the answer, due to it isn't a scientific approach.
Answer to what?
If there is a scientific approach to this specific topic, I'd look for it in psychology or neuroscience rather than applied physics.
That said, I can't help but marvel at the amount of quantitative analysis you've posted here on TT
rufus_smith
Professional
Here's the Rafter full speed serve in his prime in 2001. Wow. Its unreturnable by anybody, imho.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiuhLBSeJbE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiuhLBSeJbE
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
Whatever mental visualization works.... I don't like the carving analogy; it's a brush. No way one can come up to the ball conti, edge on, supinate and hit with front of string bed.
toly - awesome captures!
Sometimes there may be substantial difference in tennis between these, sometimes not. In other cases, existing terms are just a legacy and we can do better.
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