Ash Barty. A champion for a generation or right place right time?

[Hitman]

I have been keeping an eye on Barty to see how she is doing, not always watching her, but if I hear that she has won something, I will most certainly check out the highlights to see what she is bringing and how she is breaking down her rivals. I think she has a good game to watch as a viewer, and she was by far the better player at Wimbledon this year, but I get this feeling that she is missing a certain x factor that past greats of the WTA had.

Is it a case that she is just in a time when the players are just not consistent at the top, as we have seen a lot of hot potatoes happening with the slams, or she truly is head and shoulders above the others, and would hold her own in another generation, like the early 00s or against the players of the 90s? Watching how she lost last night makes me think she is not as dominant as sometimes she gets made out to be.

A great player to watch, yes, fully deserving of the world number one ranking, but lacks the x factor, and personally don't think she would be top in those past generations.

 

[Sudacafan]

Yes, something is missing in Barty. She has unexplainable losses here and there.

 

[beltsman]

Yes, something is missing in Barty. She has unexplainable losses here and there.

No fire

 

[Aussie Darcy]

It's a bit of both. Do I think she'll win 7+ slams and be an ATG? No. Can she nab some more slams and solidify her #1 status? Yes.

She still has had the best year of any woman on tour.
Wimbledon champion
Miami champion
Cincinnati champion
Stuttgart champion
Melbourne champion
Madrid finalist
Aus Open QFist
Rome QFist
Charleston QFist

5 titles already. I think someone made a comparison of her to Lleyton Hewitt earlier today and it sticks. Great player who does very well but is there til the next big player comes along.

 

[Aussie Darcy]

I don't see how people can say she's right place right time when we've had players like Muguruza, Ostapenko, Kenin, Sloane (the list goes on) who haven't managed to nab a slam and get to #1. Barty didn't just win a slam and do nothing else, she won Premier Mandatory titles, the YEC, Premier titles, go deep at other tournaments etc. She's been more consistent at events than even Osaka has. Even though Osaka has 2 more slams than her, she's only won 7 career titles, Barty has 13.

 

[Winners or Errors]

It's a bit of both. Do I think she'll win 7+ slams and be an ATG? No. Can she nab some more slams and solidify her #1 status? Yes.

She still has had the best year of any woman on tour.
Wimbledon champion
Miami champion
Cincinnati champion
Stuttgart champion
Melbourne champion
Madrid finalist
Aus Open QFist
Rome QFist
Charleston QFist

5 titles already. I think someone made a comparison of her to Lleyton Hewitt earlier today and it sticks. Great player who does very well but is there til the next big player comes along.

I don't think that's fair to Hewitt. His failures, other than injury after 2005, stem mostly from having a game built to beat guys who were gone after Sampras, attacking players. Once the game moved to baseline bashing, he was just not going to be the best in the world. Barty is not living through the same kind of transition. She's just inconsistently brilliant.

 

[Deleted member 771911]

I think her success in Cricket and tennis shows what a talent she is. I think she is limited and she will always be vulnerable to losses like she was to Shelby who could not only hit past her but also found a specific strategy- sending her loopy balls at times that Barty had no pace on and made errors on. Barty is not one of those players with a game that when on can just kill anyone. It needs to be the right opponent, the right conditions. That sounds obvious but some greats it is just about them.

 

[ND-13]

She is a breath of fresh air. Great serve, vicious forehand, fantastic BH slice - her cool demeanor is kind of Roger Federer like

She got nervous yesterday. Quite uncharacteristic. She had a great year but I think the long road trip did not do her any favor as she could not peak perfectly for majors

She needs to show more emotions - sometimes they are important to induce doubt in opponent

 

[gadge]

I could be wrong but from what I understand barty has a different perspective. She just goes out there gives her best on that day. Her goal is primarily to enjoy playing tennis and she got a great game to watch and is a very gifted talented athlete (she’s good at cricket and gold, a bit like Rafa naturally gifted athlete).
But at the end of the day she’s not one of those players who just want to win by hook or crook like a Serena or even Maria. She just wants to have fun out there.
That’s probably part of the reason she rarely wins ugly by just grinding it out somehow.
It’s a really good attitude to have but you can’t win every match you play with that attitude.
I also feel this generation lacks ATGs. Even Serena, Vika, Maria, li na generation was more consistent.

 

[Hitman]

I could be wrong but from what I understand barty has a different perspective. She just goes out there gives her best on that day. Her goal is primarily to enjoy playing tennis and she got a great game to watch and is a very gifted talented athlete (she’s good at cricket and gold, a bit like Rafa naturally gifted athlete).
But at the end of the day she’s not one of those players who just want to win by hook or crook like a Serena or even Maria. She just wants to have fun out there.
That’s probably part of the reason she rarely wins ugly by just grinding it out somehow.
It’s a really good attitude to have but you can’t win every match you play with that attitude.

So you are saying she lacks the competitive attitude that makes the greats great....going to that place to gut out a win when things are quite going your way?

 

[gadge]

So you are saying she lacks the competitive attitude that makes the greats great....going to that place to gut out a win when things are quite going your way?

She’s competitive but in a very soft and “sportsmanship” way. She just doesn’t have the attitude of I wanna win it one way or the other.

you can say what you want about Serena Novak or even maria they hate to loose. Barty doesn’t play to not lose when things get tough she always wants to win the right way.

 

[gadge]

She’s competitive but in a very soft and “sportsmanship” way. She just doesn’t have the attitude of I wanna win it one way or the other.

you can say what you want about Serena Novak or even maria they hate to loose. Barty doesn’t play to not lose when things get tough she always wants to win the right way.

A bit like thiem actually. I know he’s not playing well but he’s also a bit too nice.

 

[gadge]

She is a breath of fresh air. Great serve, vicious forehand, fantastic BH slice - her cool demeanor is kind of Roger Federer like

She got nervous yesterday. Quite uncharacteristic. She had a great year but I think the long road trip did not do her any favor as she could not peak perfectly for majors

She needs to show more emotions - sometimes they are important to induce doubt in opponent

Barty is not ice cold. She just doesn’t show emotions. She nearly choked a couple of times this Wimbledon.

 

[RaulRamirez]

Even though she has a very good serve, I think that - at her stature - it's hard to be THAT dominant.
She's a Hall of Famer, but unless she goes on a tear, she's probably not an inner-circle HOFer.
But she doesn't have to outdo Steffi, Serena, Martina, and Chrissy (or even Henin or Hingis) -- she only has to be the best right now, and on balance she is.
Perhaps, this is a transitional era, as like her or not, who will dominate again and for so long as Serena did?

But I also think that the WTA has lots of very good players right now, and Barty, on balance, has been a little better -- and in part, because Osaka just hasn't been "there" since the AO. But, I never have viewed Barty as a prohibitive favorite. A talented, versatile player -- and one of the classiest players in the sport, if not the most? Yes.

 

[tex123]

She was a cricketer don't forget. I don't know what number she used to bat. Batsmen (or is it batswomen?) esp top order are not known to be fiery traditionally. There are some in the modern game though. They focus on their technique and let their bat do the talking.

 

[gadge]

She was a cricketer don't forget. I don't know what number she used to bat. Batsmen (or is it batswomen?) esp top order are not known to be fiery traditionally. There are some in the modern game though. They focus on their technique and let their bat do the talking.

It still amazes me how she was able to switch between two pro sports as if it were high school. Isn’t there a selection criteria in team sports based on your past results as a junior or something??

 

[tex123]

It still amazes me how she was able to switch between two pro sports as if it were high school. Isn’t there a selection criteria in team sports based on your past results as a junior or something??

True.

Cricket is a very technical game like tennis. I guess she is a natural. Forehand is easy to transition but backhand? She is supremely talented for sure.

 

[ttwreader]

"She doesn't miss a ball" - Shelby Rogers.

 

[beltsman]

I could be wrong but from what I understand barty has a different perspective. She just goes out there gives her best on that day. Her goal is primarily to enjoy playing tennis and she got a great game to watch and is a very gifted talented athlete (she’s good at cricket and gold, a bit like Rafa naturally gifted athlete).
But at the end of the day she’s not one of those players who just want to win by hook or crook like a Serena or even Maria. She just wants to have fun out there.
That’s probably part of the reason she rarely wins ugly by just grinding it out somehow.
It’s a really good attitude to have but you can’t win every match you play with that attitude.
I also feel this generation lacks ATGs. Even Serena, Vika, Maria, li na generation was more consistent.

Then why doesn't it ever look like she's having fun?

 

[gadge]

"She doesn't miss a ball" - Shelby Rogers.

pretty ironic that she says it after yesterday's match.

 

[gadge]

Then why doesn't it ever look like she's having fun?

she doesn't express herself at all that's why. She couldn't handle the pressure so she moved away from tennis but came back later because she loves tennis more but came back with a perspective that there's life beyond tennis (listen to any of her interviews, she says this)

 

[JustMy2Cents]

Here's some warm words from Rogers on Barty, does seem heartfelt, not just lip service. Gives a window into Barty's personality.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434355275121704963

Here's Barty herself on the loss from 5-2 up in 3rd set... quite level headed.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434340161639391238

re her game, there are those aces with such precise placement... keeping up with the taller girls. And her slices and variety are amazing.

But yes, she does not get as much love as she deserves, may be because she's perceived as bland!

 

[gadge]

Here's some warm words from Rogers on Barty, does seem heartfelt, not just lip service. Gives a window into Barty's personality.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434355275121704963

Here's Barty herself on the loss from 5-2 up in 3rd set... quite level headed.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434340161639391238

re her game, there are those aces with such precise placement... keeping up with the taller girls. And her slices and variety are amazing.

But yes, she does not get as much love as she deserves, may be because she's perceived as bland!

People recognise barty’s talent and agree that she has a well deserved ranking 1 but her achievements come across a bit lower to former ATGs and a few of her losses are weird and confusing

 

[JustMy2Cents]

People recognise barty’s talent and agree that she has a well deserved ranking 1 but her achievements come across a bit lower to former ATGs and a few of her losses are weird and confusing

The COVID rankings are a travesty... may be that has been a factor in not valuing her #1.

Currently. she has been out of her home in Australia since February and that must be tough for professional consistency

 

[MeatTornado]

No fire

Dominic Thiem syndrome. Too nice to dominate.

 

[gadge]

Yes

 

[gadge]

Dominic Thiem syndrome. Too nice to dominate.

A bit like thiem actually. I know he’s not playing well but he’s also a bit too nice.

Yup

 

[R. Schweikart]

I could be wrong but from what I understand barty has a different perspective. She just goes out there gives her best on that day. Her goal is primarily to enjoy playing tennis and she got a great game to watch and is a very gifted talented athlete (she’s good at cricket and gold, a bit like Rafa naturally gifted athlete).
But at the end of the day she’s not one of those players who just want to win by hook or crook like a Serena or even Maria. She just wants to have fun out there.
That’s probably part of the reason she rarely wins ugly by just grinding it out somehow.
It’s a really good attitude to have but you can’t win every match you play with that attitude.
I also feel this generation lacks ATGs. Even Serena, Vika, Maria, li na generation was more consistent.

The 21st century had exactly one all-time great - Serena Williams.
Plus a handful of this-time greats.

 

[gadge]

The 21st century had exactly one all-time great - Serena Williams.
Plus a handful of this-time greats.

Serena is a GOAT candidate but henin and Venus are definitely ATGs

 

[Searchlight]

The 21st century had exactly one all-time great - Serena Williams.
Plus a handful of this-time greats.

I think Margaret Court has a nicer personality

 

[R. Schweikart]

Serena is a GOAT candidate but henin and Venus are definitely ATGs

You may say this today.
But the decision who is an ATG is not yours or mine to make.
People who live at the end of days will have this responsibility.

 

[gadge]

You may say this today.
But the decision who is an ATG is not yours or mine to make.
People who live at the end of days will have this responsibility.

I’d say winning 7 slams and ranked as no.1 for a good amount of period is considered an ATG

 

[R. Schweikart]

I’d say winning 7 slams and ranked as no.1 for a good amount of period is considered an ATG

A great, yes.
But not an all-time great.

How many ATGs did tennis have until the open era in your opinion?
For me it is only Lenglen, Wills, Connolly.

 

[Searchlight]

It is not an achievement to have a nicer personality than Serena. It's just the DNA.

then they both have to work on their DNA.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

The 21st century had exactly one all-time great - Serena Williams.
Plus a handful of this-time greats.

The bold part is true--in the 21st century, you have a number of players who won several majors, but they are not generally referred to as "all-time greats," so that would certainly apply to the Bartys of the sport.

Regarding the idea of Barty being some "champion for a generation"--no. Start with the question of her hypothetical career in the early 2000s--there's no way she would have ever challenged Venus, with her back-back-to-back Wimbledon and US Open titles from 2000 - 2001. Not a chance. Venus had an understanding of the game that dismantled the field at those events in such a commanding manner that no strategy Barty tried--no for of the game--would have given her a chance. Against Serena, say in 2002? Its not happening. Barty has never displayed a dominant game like that, and as a player settled in her own game, its doubtful she ever will have that kind of dominant game. Barty in the 90s--against Graf--anywhere--ridiculous, or against Arantxa Sánchez Vicario at the French Open? Not liking her chances against either.

Return to the present day, and she's not the most dominant (or interesting) of the past decade+ of players, especially at the majors. Despite certain people taking that long walk off of the short pier of Barty obsession / false ability inflation, as it stands, she is a good player, but no tennis revelation, the face of an era, or beginning of some explosive, dominating career. Her worsening US Open performances (now leaving one round earlier than her two previous appearances) is an inidcator that her game may not be suitable for that major, and if so, she's not in better position that other, active players who have no success at certain majors.

 

[Aceangel]

Take a chill pill Thundervolley. you are starting to sound a bit unhinged.

 

[Wander]

Her game seems vulnerable to being upset especially on the hard courts, perhaps because of her reliance on the slice backhand. But I guess she will stay at #1 for a while yet with Osaka practically out of the game and no consistent enough challengers emerging quite yet. Let's take another look in 6 months.

 

[gadge]

Her game seems vulnerable to being upset especially on the hard courts, perhaps because of her reliance on the slice backhand. But I guess she will stay at #1 for a while yet with Osaka practically out of the game and no consistent enough challengers emerging quite yet. Let's take another look in 6 months.

Yes it’s hard to find someone in the game who’s consistent and plays on all surfaces. Barty will keep her world no.1 for quite a while but won’t dominate slams like some of the world no.1s did. She seems quite prone to upsets in earlier rounds.

 

[Aceangel]

For goodness sake she has won Masters on hard courts. No WTA player has a more all surface game. You don’t win one hundred percent of the time just because you are number one.

 

[Wander]

For goodness sake she has won Masters on hard courts. No WTA player has a more all surface game. You don’t win one hundred percent of the time just because you are number one.

Of course she's the best player right now. The topic here was that she is not as dominant as some past all-time great world #1 players were. And that's fine. She's still the best in the world right now.

 

[gadge]

For goodness sake she has won Masters on hard courts. No WTA player has a more all surface game. You don’t win one hundred percent of the time just because you are number one.

No one’s denying the fact that she is the best player but just that you can’t really call it a barty era like a Serena era or even an henin era

 

[Jason Swerve]

Barty is "nice," but "nice" often doesn't make a tennis champion despite being an amiable quality outside of tennis. The past champions were overwhelmingly not "nice" when it came down to the tennis. Evert was not "nice". Navratilova and especially Graf were not "nice". All three were self-superior to everyone, in reality, and the first and third especially faced criticism for their coldness. The moment Seles became "nicer," she'd started to lose much more often. The earlier Seles wasn't so "nice". Hingis and Henin weren't "nice," and Serena and Venus only started winning when they became extremely mean, fierce competitors on the court. I suppose Wozniacki was "nice," though she's superior to Barty in skill and achievements and doesn't compare to the other players. Each of these people has mellowed out once they've retired, and that's how to have the best of both worlds.

 

[Chanwan]

I think her success in Cricket and tennis shows what a talent she is. I think she is limited and she will always be vulnerable to losses like she was to Shelby who could not only hit past her but also found a specific strategy- sending her loopy balls at times that Barty had no pace on and made errors on. Barty is not one of those players with a game that when on can just kill anyone. It needs to be the right opponent, the right conditions. That sounds obvious but some greats it is just about them.

I agree she doesn't have a game that can blow anyone off the court at any given day, but very, very few players have that. I think part of Barty's genius is that she is anything but limited and can change her tactics quite a bit depending on which opponent she's playing. In other words - the opposite of limited and the opposite of needing the right opponent in the right conditions.

Barty is "nice," but "nice" often doesn't make a tennis champion despite being an amiable quality outside of tennis. The past champions were overwhelmingly not "nice" when it came down to the tennis. Evert was not "nice". Navratilova and especially Graf were not "nice". All three were self-superior to everyone, in reality, and the first and third especially faced criticism for their coldness. The moment Seles became "nicer," she'd started to lose much more often. The earlier Seles wasn't so "nice". Hingis and Henin weren't "nice," and Serena and Venus only started winning when they became extremely mean, fierce competitors on the court. I suppose Wozniacki was "nice," though she's superior to Barty in skill and achievements and doesn't compare to the other players. Each of these people has mellowed out once they've retired, and that's how to have the best of both worlds.

"The moment Seles got stabbed by a crazy person, she'd started to lose much more often."
There you go, you're welcome

Also, please elaborate: "I suppose Wozniacki was "nice," though she's superior to Barty in skill" ???

 

[Aceangel]

Yes Barty is by far a better player than Wozniacki was.

 

[Jason Swerve]

I agree she doesn't have a game that can blow anyone off the court at any given day, but very, very few players have that. I think part of Barty's genius is that she is anything but limited and can change her tactics quite a bit depending on which opponent she's playing. In other words - the opposite of limited and the opposite of needing the right opponent in the right conditions.

"The moment Seles got stabbed by a crazy person, she'd started to lose much more often."
There you go, you're welcome

Also, please elaborate: "I suppose Wozniacki was "nice," though she's superior to Barty in skill" ???

You misunderstand. As Seles herself admitted, she lost her intense fire following that event. She gained a new appreciation for just being alive and saw that there was much more to life than winning tennis matches and showing up her detractors who hated her playstyle and personal decisions. Prior to that event, she took virtually every winner hit against her as a personal grudge. She didn't have many friends on the tour once she started to win everything, and she'd eventually stopped trying to make them. Like many of the top women of that era, she had her own entourage to support her.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

She was a cricketer don't forget. I don't know what number she used to bat. Batsmen (or is it batswomen?) esp top order are not known to be fiery traditionally. There are some in the modern game though. They focus on their technique and let their bat do the talking.

Batsmen aren't known to be fiery? You must have not seen Ponting give an earful to Srinath just because the latter checked if he was OK after hitting his helmet with a bouncer. You must have not seen Tendulkar chase Olonga to all four corners to thrash him. Or Vivian Richards in general. You want modern examples? Just try Virat Kohli. I don't think Kohli could sleep at night if he didn't get to use at least one cuss word on the field.

 

[tex123]

Batsmen aren't known to be fiery? You must have not seen Ponting give an earful to Srinath just because the latter checked if he was OK after hitting his helmet with a bouncer. You must have not seen Tendulkar chase Olonga to all four corners to thrash him. Or Vivian Richards in general. You want modern examples? Just try Virat Kohli. I don't think Kohli could sleep at night if he didn't get to use at least one cuss word on the field.

I said traditionally. Think Dean Jones, Dravid, Border, Martin Crowe etc. I'm not sure what incident you are referring to regarding Tendulkar. He was a mild mannered cricketer.
Sure, there may be some incidents out of the ordinary but traditionally they are not known to be fiery. They let their batting do the talking.

 

[Aceangel]

Like Ash

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I said traditionally. Think Dean Jones, Dravid, Border, Martin Crowe etc. I'm not sure what incident you are referring to regarding Tendulkar. He was a mild mannered cricketer.
Sure, there may be some incidents out of the ordinary but traditionally they are not known to be fiery. They let their batting do the talking.

Tendulkar always let his bat do the talking but he was capable of channeling his belligerence into his batting and absolutely destroying an attack if he wanted to. I haven't seen THAT either from Barty. I don't think it has anything to do with the nature of cricket. It's just how she plays. It's nice but kinda careful and cautious.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I have been keeping an eye on Barty to see how she is doing, not always watching her, but if I hear that she has won something, I will most certainly check out the highlights to see what she is bringing and how she is breaking down her rivals. I think she has a good game to watch as a viewer, and she was by far the better player at Wimbledon this year, but I get this feeling that she is missing a certain x factor that past greats of the WTA had.

Is it a case that she is just in a time when the players are just not consistent at the top, as we have seen a lot of hot potatoes happening with the slams, or she truly is head and shoulders above the others, and would hold her own in another generation, like the early 00s or against the players of the 90s? Watching how she lost last night makes me think she is not as dominant as sometimes she gets made out to be.

A great player to watch, yes, fully deserving of the world number one ranking, but lacks the x factor, and personally don't think she would be top in those past generations.

I think she is kinda the Murray of women's tennis. She is so sharp tactically and is good to watch but she is also very careful with her tennis, to a fault. She doesn't have a fifth gear. Even when she is bagelling an opponent, she looks efficient and smooth, not dominant.

She is young enough that this could still change but Murray couldn't. So, I certainly cannot imagine Barty dominating 2004 Masha, let alone peak Williams sisters, Davenport, Henin or Clijsters. In that sense, she has been fortunate to play in an era where both top tier talent and brains have been somewhat in short supply. The arrival of players like Emma or Leylah indicates that that is about to change and Barry's window of opportunity may be closing soon.