Back pain from serving

[derick232]

I’ve always had a big serve and it’s never really bothered my back. Occasionally I get some sore muscles in my lower back if I served a lot. Recently my mid back on the right side of my spine has been hurting after just serving a little bit. Now it just feels like I’m slowly snapping my back when I go to serve. I know I have quite a large bend and I’m wondering if that needs to change and if so to what?

 

[RobS]

I'd work on reducing the arch in your lower spine. That puts a lot of stress on the back. Mechanically, I'd think about getting some shoulder turn. Instead of pulling your shoulders back on your toss and staying perpendicular to the baseline, think about turning your torso, rotating your shoulders, so your showing more back to the court than chest. From there, you can rotate around your spine and up with your legs. It's hard to tell from the angle but I think your toss isn't consistently far enough into the court which may be contributing to the arched back position. You're landing outside or on the baseline on many serves Work on getting your toss in a position that forces you to land with your left foot completely inside the baseline. You have some good elements to your serve. Cleaning up your toss location and incorporating some more shoulder/body rotation could really have you bringing some heat.

 

[LeeD]

Swing at 90% of what you are doing now.
Relax.
Lose weight.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Maybe it’s a toom-ah!

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I’ve always had a big serve and it’s never really bothered my back. Occasionally I get some sore muscles in my lower back if I served a lot. Recently my mid back on the right side of my spine has been hurting after just serving a little bit. Now it just feels like I’m slowly snapping my back when I go to serve. I know I have quite a large bend and I’m wondering if that needs to change and if so to what?

What's your current workout regimen? Do you work your core, lower back, etc?

 

[Chas Tennis]

I have no medical training. And don't have knowledge of back injuries and the tennis serve.

Your back has some extra bend to it in your normal posture. Have your posture evaluated by a Dr.

See Thoracic Spine. You have a lot of Thoracic Extension bending. Search also latissimus dorsi muscle insertion and origins pictures.

I studied Thoracic Extension during the serve and it might have an unusual function. When Thoracic Extension normally occurs, as the legs thrust, it shortens the distance between the lat's bone attachments. This reduces the length of the lat and makes stretching it easier. Also, when you straighten your spine with Thoracic Flexion, it lengthens and stretches your lat muscle. How the shoulder joint moves while you are straightening your spine will also affect the length of the lat. In other words. straightening the spine can stretch the lat or directly move the shoulder joint, or both. The last video below shows this sub-motion of the serve with texts.

It may be that your spine is too flexible, bends too much, and then when you straighten your spine something is getting stressed. ? Your normal posture may have shortened the muscles in your back and they get stressed when you straighten your back. ? Search anterior pelvic tilt pictures You really need a specialist to evaluate your posture and physical therapy to correct posture problems.

How anterior pelvic tilt might be sabotaging your booty gains. — Glute Camp

Do you have an excessive inward low-back curve? If so, you might be struggling with chronic anterior pelvic tilt. Can you, right now, while you’re reading this, squeeze your butt-cheeks and create a visible contraction without the use of resistance? Can you squeeze each glute independently? If so, y

www.holycityfitness.com

Exceptionally flexible back, Thoracic Spine Extension.

Do you have or once had the belief that you want to bend forward very fast for serve speed? I believe that the speed might be secondary to the distance between the lat's attachments. I have not found publications of this view.

Thread with details. Scan thread and look at videos.

Thoracic Extension of the Spine and the Serve

WARNING - How your spine is used during the serve can risk injury. Many backs are not capable of much Thoracic Extension. ? http://www.racquetfit.com/articles/Screening/if_you_can%27t_extend_from_your_thoracic_spine_you%27re_squandering_power_and_inviting_injury The extension of the...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

WARNING - How your spine is used during the serve can risk injury. Many backs are not capable of much Thoracic Extension. ?

If You Can't Extend From Your Thoracic Spine, You're Squandering Power and Inviting Injury | Article | Racquetfit

RacquetFit instructor Jeff Salzenstein discusses the importance of spine mobility for durability in tennis and how you can assess your thoracic extension using the RacquetFit screen.

www.racquetfit.com

The extension of the thoracic spine is brief and when it occurs can be seen in videos of high level servers.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/how-many-ways-can-you-cause-a-stretch-shorten-cycle.608932/page-2#post-13643809

Thoracic Extension is mid-back, different than the lower back.

There have been posts on Thoracic Extension. TE is probably used in a similar way for the baseball pitch.

Since you have a video you can compare your Thoracic Extension followed by the Thoracic Flexion that straightens the Thoracic Spine.

Compare videos in this post one above the other and single frame. To single frame on Youtube stop and use the period & comma keys. Always select the video using the alt key plus the left mouse click, otherwise the video starts playing. You can go full screen and come back down and the video stays on the same frame. Compare you thoracic back bend to the pro's and to other pros in the compilation. For most accuracy select similar videos with similar camera angles.

This last video has 4 sec pauses and text.

Taking a video from the side view would show your back near the end of its motion.

If you have a model server post their video below yours and use the above directions to compare.

 

[pencilcheck]

Try to have your contact a bit behind your head right before you swing. Also stop leaning backward like you are playing Limbo, you should feel your weight are leaning into the court instead.

Also, your serve is normal, but you seems to hit out a lot (based on your highlights), that is not a big serve, that is just double faulting hard.

 

[Chas Tennis]

...........................
Try to have your contact a bit behind your head right before you swing. ...........................

What does this mean? What is "contact"?

 

[mcs1970]

Get checked by a doc first.

 

[derick232]

Try to have your contact a bit behind your head right before you swing. Also stop leaning backward like you are playing Limbo, you should feel your weight are leaning into the court instead.

Also, your serve is normal, but you seems to hit out a lot (based on your highlights), that is not a big serve, that is just double faulting hard.

Wouldn't contact behind my head mean I have to bend further back, only making the issue worse?
And also, while I don't have a 70% first serve percentage I do have a big first serve and second serve with typically less than 4 doubles in a match, don't let the speed clock on the video fool you as anyone who uses swing vision knows its quite inaccurate. The video was only of a few specific serves to show the movement I was talking about. Go check out the youtube channel if you don't believe me.

 

[derick232]

Swing at 90% of what you are doing now.
Relax.
Lose weight.

Working on that last one...

 

[derick232]

What's your current workout regimen? Do you work your core, lower back, etc?

I hurt my lower back a few years ago and so I haven't been able to do deadlifts or other back exercises since without pain, though I don't normally have pain. Most of my exercise comes from tennis and cycling but I used to hit abs fairly regularly, though it doesn't show.

 

[pencilcheck]

Wouldn't contact behind my head mean I have to bend further back, only making the issue worse?
And also, while I don't have a 70% first serve percentage I do have a big first serve and second serve with typically less than 4 doubles in a match, don't let the speed clock on the video fool you as anyone who uses swing vision knows its quite inaccurate. The video was only of a few specific serves to show the movement I was talking about. Go check out the youtube channel if you don't believe me.

Sorry I meant to contact as a righty slightly to your right of your head

 

[LeeD]

Working on that last one...

You land one footed, but very hard and jarring impact.
Look at the lefty. He lands the same, but is 40 lbs lighter, so less impact.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Sorry I meant to contact as a righty slightly to your right of your head

Don't most impacts for the high level slice and flat serves also occur in front of the head? And the kick serve impact occurs above the head (after the head moves forward from toss release). It would be nice to always have a frame of the location of impact from an overhead camera, then we see the right-left and the forward-backward impact positions best.

Whoops! This Salazar slice serve does not have the impact forward of the head as I expected.

Time to look at more serves from side views, perpendicular to the ball's trajectory at impact.

Slice serve from above Toly composite pictures of Fuzzy Yellow Balls. To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys.

The arm does not tilt forward at impact. ? The ball is where @pencilcheck said relative to the head.

To move single frame on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

See impact at 11 sec.

Whoops! Closer than I thought again. I expect the trunk to tilt forward and the arm to tilt forward when viewed from the side for high level flat and slice serves. But the head is more forward than I expected for the slice and flat serves.

 

[ballmachineguy]

More seriously this time, you sometimes put your right foot forward of your left instead of right next to it. This kind of forces you into a “corkscrew” position. Maybe your back doesn’t like that. You also seem to leave the ground a bit early. Typically, high level server’s toes are leaving the ground at the same time the racquet head is directly below the grip. Don’t know how that might cause back pain, though. I do know that the better my serve technique became, the more effortless (felt fewer forces on my body) it became and the less likely I would probably get injured/feel pain.

 

[pencilcheck]

Don't most impacts for the high level slice and flat serves also occur in front of the head? And the kick serve impact occurs above the head (after the head moves forward from toss release). It would be nice to always have a frame of the location of impact from an overhead camera, then we see the right-left and the forward-backward impact positions best.

Whoops! This Salazar slice serve does not have the impact forward of the head as I expected.

Time to look at more serves from side views, perpendicular to the ball's trajectory at impact.

Slice serve from above Toly composite pictures of Fuzzy Yellow Balls. To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys.

The arm does not tilt forward at impact. ? The ball is where @pencilcheck said relative to the head.

To move single frame on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

See impact at 11 sec.

Whoops! Closer than I thought again. I expect the trunk to tilt forward and the arm to tilt forward when viewed from the side for high level flat and slice serves. But the head is more forward than I expected for the slice and flat serves.

well, OP is not that flexible. if he is, then he wouldn't even have issues to begin with.

Most of us rec players we are not that atheletic. We have to hit with what our body can afford.

 

[derick232]

Thank you @RobS , @ballmachineguy ,@Chas Tennis ,and @S&V-not_dead_yet. I made some pretty major tweaks to my service motion and my back is feeling much better. Here's what I changed and you can see it in the video as well.

1. Switched from pinpoint to platform stance.
2. Start almost perpendicular to the baseline.
3. Focus on turning shoulders instead of bending backwards.
4. Bending at knees not back and pushing into the court.
5. Toss ball further into the court.

Overall the hardest thing to change was turning my shoulders instead of bending backwards. The platform stance also felt a little odd at first but I've gotten used to it now. I think I'm lacking in speed and placement compared to my old serve but I think the potential is still there it will just take some time to get it back. Let me know what you think of my new service motion and if there's any other glaring problems. I'd say so far this is a win since my back is tolerating it much better.

Old serve

New serve

 

[derick232]

More seriously this time, you sometimes put your right foot forward of your left instead of right next to it. This kind of forces you into a “corkscrew” position. Maybe your back doesn’t like that. You also seem to leave the ground a bit early. Typically, high level server’s toes are leaving the ground at the same time the racquet head is directly below the grip. Don’t know how that might cause back pain, though. I do know that the better my serve technique became, the more effortless (felt fewer forces on my body) it became and the less likely I would probably get injured/feel pain.

I think the corkscrew thing was a big part of the problem, and switching to the platform stance really helped with that.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Thank you @RobS , @ballmachineguy ,@Chas Tennis ,and @S&V-not_dead_yet. I made some pretty major tweaks to my service motion and my back is feeling much better. Here's what I changed and you can see it in the video as well.

1. Switched from pinpoint to platform stance.
2. Start almost perpendicular to the baseline.
3. Focus on turning shoulders instead of bending backwards.
4. Bending at knees not back and pushing into the court.
5. Toss ball further into the court.

Overall the hardest thing to change was turning my shoulders instead of bending backwards. The platform stance also felt a little odd at first but I've gotten used to it now. I think I'm lacking in speed and placement compared to my old serve but I think the potential is still there it will just take some time to get it back. Let me know what you think of my new service motion and if there's any other glaring problems. I'd say so far this is a win since my back is tolerating it much better.



New serve

"2...........
3. Focus on turning shoulders instead of bending backwards.
4. Bending at knees not back and pushing into the court.
5.........."

This frame was at 50 sec. It show how your spine is bent.

Zerev's chest is probably not at as horizontal as yours (estimated using horizontal fence poles).
I just happened to see this picture, serve type unknown and time of video unknown.

Your are not in the condition that Zerev is in, have extra weight, and it seems you bend your spine quite a bit.

I do not understand the risks of bending the spin. You should have your posture evaluated by a well qualified doctor.

Your recording rate is too slow to analyze ISR and there are no shadows at the elbow. You can see some ISR movement at the elbows. But with the low frame rate most of the serves look different from one another.

I don't look at that many serves. When you edit show the ball hit the back fence.

ISR estimate start to impact 25-30 milliseconds. Time between frames at 30 fps is 33.3 milliseconds per frame, 60 fps 16.7 ms. That gives about 1 or 2 frame for the ISR leading to impact.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I’ve always had a big serve and it’s never really bothered my back. Occasionally I get some sore muscles in my lower back if I served a lot. Recently my mid back on the right side of my spine has been hurting after just serving a little bit. Now it just feels like I’m slowly snapping my back when I go to serve. I know I have quite a large bend and I’m wondering if that needs to change and if so to what?

Notice how Boris gets his heels off the ground with his generous knee bend. Notice the fairly straight (tilted) line from his knees up thru his back. This allows him to lay back with very little arching of his back. You may be getting your heels off the ground somewhat. But perhaps you should focus on this a bit more to avoid curving your spine too much.

I did notice a couple of things about your serve. Your PP stance is a bit off. Instead of bringing your R foot next to your L foot, you step too far to the R. This might tend to stress the lower back a bit more -- depending on your toss location.

I also noticed that, when you land, your L foot is oriented off to the left. And you take several steps in that direction after you serve. Try to land with your L foot pointed more toward your target area. And your R leg should kick back toward the camera (more or less). This landing should help you drive Up & Forward more into the serve. This might also help to stress the lower back a bit less.

~~~~~~~~~​

Disclaimer: I've not read any of the previous posts so I don't know if any of this is a repetition of what you heard previously. Even if it is, it's always good to hear something stated in a different manner in order to develop a more thorough understanding.

 

[derick232]

Notice how Boris gets his heels off the ground with his generous knee bend. Notice the fairly straight (tilted) line from his knees up thru his back. This allows him to lay back with very little arching of his back. You may be getting your heels off the ground somewhat. But perhaps you should focus on this a bit more to avoid curving your spine too much.

I did notice a couple of things about your serve. Your PP stance is a bit off. Instead of bringing your R foot next to your L foot, you step too far to the R. This might tend to stress the lower back a bit more -- depending on your toss location.

I also noticed that, when you land, your L foot is oriented off to the left. And you take several steps in that direction after you serve. Try to land with your L foot pointed more toward your target area. And your R leg should kick back toward the camera (more or less). This landing should help you drive Up & Forward more into the serve. This might also help to stress the lower back a bit less.

~~~~~~~~~​

Disclaimer: I've not read any of the previous posts so I don't know if any of this is a repetition of what you heard previously. Even if it is, it's always good to hear something stated in a different manner in order to develop a more thorough understanding.

The heels off the ground and straight but tilted line from the knee to back is something I can definitely work on. As for the right foot coming to far, I corrected this by switching to a platform stance. You can see the new video just a few comments above. With my new motion my back is feeling much better, but I'm sure it's nowhere near perfect. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Enkitec]

Have you tried massages? It should help.

 

[Robert Kim]

Your serve style is harsh on your mid-back. That big bend might help with power, but it's hard on your back. Try serving a bit straighter, using your legs and core more to power up your serve instead of bending so much. I had similar back pain from serving, too, and it didn't stop until I got some massages. Try to check out https://www.phpclinic.com/ for some help. Also, working with a coach to look at your service could be good. And remember to do some exercises and stretches to strengthen your back. If the pain doesn't go away, definitely consider getting those massages. Take care, and don't push too hard if it keeps hurting!

 

[Digital Atheist]

Necrobumping threads like this is still a sin!

 

[ballmachineguy]

Necrobumping threads like this is still a sin!

I think people don’t read the dates. At least I hope people aren’t answering years old questions that only pertain to an individual’s situation on purpose.

 

[Digital Atheist]

I think people don’t read the dates. At least I hope people aren’t answering years old questions that only pertain to an individual’s situation on purpose.

No they don't, and that's my entire point! I'm not suggesting this is being done as a troll tactic and imo it's not, but a gentle reminder is still beneficial so it isn't a reoccurring theme.