Ball on the court debate

[kelkat]

I could look this up, but thought it would be more fun to post this here. At districts today, my partner was on the deuce side returning serve. The ops first serve was out. The ball rolled to the back fence. As the op served her second serve, her partner called "Ball on the court". My partner stopped, thinking the ball was from another court somewhere. The serve was in. The ball that the partner called out apparently was the server's first service ball that was out and had rolled back into the court a bit. Not in the way of the receiver and probably wouldn't have been noticeable to us, unless a huge lob occurred later in the point. The serve then said, "Take two? We said no. We said that because this wasn't a ball from another court, but the ball from her first serve, that we should play it as a let - with her taking the 2nd serve over. They were quite adamant that she should get 2 serves, arguing that they were right. In the end, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze on this, and no refs in the vicinity.... and we let them take two. Were we right?

 

[Dartagnan64]

If the let is caused by the server, it’s a second serve. In this case, an unplayed first serve fault is the servers responsibility.

This is why you don’t return first serve faults. If you do and it causes a let, then they can take 2. If you leave it alone any let caused by that ball results in a second serve.

 

[kelkat]

Meant to say "The ball that the partner saw on our side of the court was the server's first service ball that was out and had rolled back into the court a bit.

 

[kelkat]

Also, just spoke with my partner, and she said the 2nd serve was out, possibly distracted by her partner's call.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I think I would be pretty generous about giving two serves in that situations. The ankle they were trying to save was mine, and I don't my opponents hesitating to warn me about an injury threat.

But I think the actual rule would be that the server doesn't get two serves because of something her partner did. Either the server is a quick server, or the server's partner didn't act quickly enough (that is, before the service motion). Either way, second serve. Unless you want to be nice.

 

[GatorTennis]

I could look this up, but thought it would be more fun to post this here. At districts today, my partner was on the deuce side returning serve. The ops first serve was out. The ball rolled to the back fence. As the op served her second serve, her partner called "Ball on the court". My partner stopped, thinking the ball was from another court somewhere. The serve was in. The ball that the partner called out apparently was the server's first service ball that was out and had rolled back into the court a bit. Not in the way of the receiver and probably wouldn't have been noticeable to us, unless a huge lob occurred later in the point. The serve then said, "Take two? We said no. We said that because this wasn't a ball from another court, but the ball from her first serve, that we should play it as a let - with her taking the 2nd serve over. They were quite adamant that she should get 2 serves, arguing that they were right. In the end, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze on this, and no refs in the vicinity.... and we let them take two. Were we right?

The right call is probably a hindrance. Per "The Code", you are responsible for clearing your end of the court. You must clear stray balls at the request of the opponent, if reasonable. The server started the point before their partner asked for you to remove the ball. Therefore, the opponent was speaking to you (causing obvious distraction) while the ball was coming to you. To me, this is a weird point, but I think it should have been a hindrance.

Couple of other variants to this issue. If they asked you to pick up the ball, and it was close proximity, still 2nd serve. We had a guy playing at sectionals, and his opponent would always chase the missed first serve down (that was not affecting play) to ice him on his second serve. After a couple times, our guy called first serve, and they ended up calling an official who said that you cannot unduly delay play, and our guy got his first serve.

 

[tennis tom]

The server should have not served her second until the first had stopped rolling. At that point if she thought you'll may get injured by it, to be nice she should have asked : "Are you alright with that?" Or, she could have left it up to you'll to track the ball and decide if it was a hazard. If it's a windy day, I would clear a ball that might be blown underfoot. From the sound of your post, the opponent was looking for an excuse to get a first serve. I play with an ER doc who never looks back at balls that ricochet off the concrete wall behind him. I used to warn him about it, I don't anymore, he's smart enough to be a doc, I always look behind me in case a ball ricochets off a pole. He doesn't care, we've been playing for years that way. I don't care if he breaks his ankle, since he doesn't--I figure he gets his medical wholesale or will fix put a cast on it himself.

 

[Cindysphinx]

The right call is probably a hindrance. Per "The Code", you are responsible for clearing your end of the court. You must clear stray balls at the request of the opponent, if reasonable. The server started the point before their partner asked for you to remove the ball. Therefore, the opponent was speaking to you (causing obvious distraction) while the ball was coming to you. To me, this is a weird point, but I think it should have been a hindrance.

Couple of other variants to this issue. If they asked you to pick up the ball, and it was close proximity, still 2nd serve. We had a guy playing at sectionals, and his opponent would always chase the missed first serve down (that was not affecting play) to ice him on his second serve. After a couple times, our guy called first serve, and they ended up calling an official who said that you cannot unduly delay play, and our guy got his first serve.

That's clever, but I don't think it is correct.

When server's partner yells "Ball on court!", to me that is the same as calling a let. So I don't think there was a point in progress from the moment it was said. The point never got started.

So of course it is a second serve. Unless you want to be nice.

 

[sweetrugger]

The server should have not served her second until the first had stopped rolling.

This. If the server wasn't responsible enough to wait for the ball to stop rolling and clearly out of play, then too bad.

 

[winchestervatennis]

Hard to tell if this is gamesmanship or a legit concern by the server’s partner. But the code tells us to give the benefit of the doubt, which I personally don’t constrain to only line calls. I’d give the benefit of the doubt here as well that it was a legitimate concern and give the first service. BUT I’d also make sure to clearly say that y’all as the returners were okay with the ball and in the future they should wait to serve until the ball stops, or even ask for it to be cleared or if y’all are okay with it. If I really thought it was gamesmanship, I’d follow it with “if it happens again, we’re taking the point.”

Also, there’s no such thing as giving them second service over; its either a let or they stoped the point without grounds. It would be tough for a roving official who saw the point or even a referee (you could call for own as this is a question as to rule of law) to say the serving team didn’t legitimately think it was a hazard to your team. But if it happens again and you can tell the official you gave the “don’t do it again or we’re taking the point,” them I gotta believe the official would side with you.

 

[kelkat]

Just a follow-up: I emailed a fellow player and a USTA certified ref, who was there that day, but not assigned to our courts. Her was her response:

"As I see the situation, the ball was on the fence line and rolled away from the fence. You both knew the whereabouts of your ball. The opponent was being thoughtful for bringing attention to the ball. Safety first.

But “The Code “ states: “The time it takes to clear a ball that comes onto the court between the first and second serves is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two serves unless this time is so prolonged as to constitute an interruption. The RECEIVER is the judge of whether the delay is sufficiently prolonged to justify giving the server two serves” (FAC 40).

Receiver should clear the ball and server should play a let and serve one time after ball was cleared. "

 

[AtTheNet]

My observation is that as players get older, they get increasingly sensitive about loose balls on the court. Nobody wants to spend weeks recovering from an ankle sprain, or worse. My practice after every serve toward me or my partner is to ensure that the ball is back against the fence and well out of harm's way--if not, I either pick it up or roll it into the back corner.

In the situation described by the OP, they get to repeat the second serve. Although I appreciate the courtesy of the opposing partner warning us of the loose ball hazard, expecting to get two new serves out of that situation is pretty silly.

 

[Dartagnan64]

In the situation described by the OP, they get to repeat the second serve. Although I appreciate the courtesy of the opposing partner warning us of the loose ball hazard, expecting to get two new serves out of that situation is pretty silly.

I find that some people are insane about the need to get 2 serves at times. I've had players ask for a first serve when a ball from another court came onto the court right after their first serve fault was quickly swatted away before they'd taken their second serve ball from their pocket and immediately ask for a first serve for outside interference.

I've had a server hit his first serve way into another court and stand there waiting for it to be returned, than ask for a first serve after the delay that was totally his fault.

 

[AtTheNet]

I find that some people are insane about the need to get 2 serves at times. I've had players ask for a first serve when a ball from another court came onto the court right after their first serve fault was quickly swatted away before they'd taken their second serve ball from their pocket and immediately ask for a first serve for outside interference.

I've had a server hit his first serve way into another court and stand there waiting for it to be returned, than ask for a first serve after the delay that was totally his fault.

Yep, gets kind of goofy at times. My rule of thumb is that if a ball from an adjacent court interrupts us, the server gets two serves. If his errant serve causes a delay while it is retrieved, he gets the second serve only. If they don't like it, tough tiddlywinks.

 

[Cawlin]

Opponents get a let for 2nd serve - so take one... not two.

The first serve ball rolling around is a natrual part of things when you play without ball kids to pick them up for you. You made no effort to return the ball, or retrieve it because you thought it would stay out of the way, no biggie, that's the right play. It happened to roll back into the way during the 2nd serve - through no fault of your own as the receiving team - so fine, let - replay 2nd serve. If the 2nd serve had been played and then the point joined and the ball THEN rolled onto the court, that would be a full point let - and the opponents would get 2 serves.

If you attempted to retrieve the fault first serve and bounced and kicked it all around, taking an inordinate amount of time to retrieve that ball, delaying the server on their 2nd serve, then it would be customary to award the server another first serve... but that doesn't sound like the case here.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Yep, gets kind of goofy at times. My rule of thumb is that if a ball from an adjacent court interrupts us, the server gets two serves. If his errant serve causes a delay while it is retrieved, he gets the second serve only. If they don't like it, tough tiddlywinks.

I've also had the returners play in this game. I once hit a first serve out wide that missed and rolled into an adjacent empty court. My opponent goes all the way over, retrieves the ball, saunters back to position with no offer of a first serve. WTH? Who does that?

 

[Cawlin]

WTH? Who does that?

Two types of people do that -

1) People who don't know any better.
2) People who are trying to throw you off your rhythm.

This happened in every single mixed match I ever played and it was always the woman running for the ball... in all cases but one, I chalked it up to her not knowing any better.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I played against a lady who frequently fetched balls after a missed 1st serve regardless of their location. She did this very slowly. At first, we found it annoying. But eventually it helped focus my mind on the importance of getting the 1st serve in if I didn't want to have to stand there and watch her meander about.

She also returned obviously out serves. She was the full package.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I played against a lady who frequently fetched balls after a missed 1st serve regardless of their location. She did this very slowly. At first, we found it annoying. But eventually it helped focus my mind on the importance of getting the 1st serve in if I didn't want to have to stand there and watch her meander about.

She also returned obviously out serves. She was the full package.

Your not the full package until your return obviously out serves into the adjacent court and then wait for it to be returned before signaling you are ready for the second serve. And never, ever offer a first serve, but always request one.

 

[ATX Tennis]

Curious...what is the rule if a server asks you to clear a ball behind you that is on the fence line? It's not in your way, and s/he has ball/s necessary to complete serving on that side. Not sure if it was gamesmanship or just a super OCD player, but it takes me out of my rhythm as a returner. Are you obligated to clear your side on the server's request? Thanks.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Curious...what is the rule if a server asks you to clear a ball behind you that is on the fence line? It's not in your way, and s/he has ball/s necessary to complete serving on that side. Not sure if it was gamesmanship or just a super OCD player, but it takes me out of my rhythm as a returner. Are you obligated to clear your side on the server's request? Thanks.

Yes you are obligated to clear balls as requested by your opponent. But not obligated to offer them a first serve if they hit the ball there to begin with. Unless you stuff around doing it for over a minute.

 

[ATX Tennis]

Yes you are obligated to clear balls as requested by your opponent. But not obligated to offer them a first serve if they hit the ball there to begin with. Unless you stuff around doing it for over a minute.

Thanks for the reply! I just did a search and found the following under bullet 42 of the Code:

1. Retrieving Stray Balls. Each player is responsible for removing stray balls and other objects from the player’s end of the court. Whenever a ball is not in play, a player must honor an opponent’s request to remove a ball from the court or from an area outside the court that is reasonably close to the lines. A player shall not go behind an adjacent court to retrieve a ball or ask a player on an adjacent court to return a ball while a point is in play. When a player returns a ball from an adjacent court, the player shall wait until the point is over on the court where the ball is being returned and then return it directly to one of the players, preferably the server.

It does say to honor an opponent's request to clear balls from the court, but it also mentions the ball should be "reasonably close to the lines." I've only run into this once ever in my playing career, so I won't spend much time overthinking it. I try to accommodate the other players but felt like I was getting gamed after awhile against this guy.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Thanks for the reply! I just did a search and found the following under bullet 42 of the Code:

1. Retrieving Stray Balls. Each player is responsible for removing stray balls and other objects from the player’s end of the court. Whenever a ball is not in play, a player must honor an opponent’s request to remove a ball from the court or from an area outside the court that is reasonably close to the lines. A player shall not go behind an adjacent court to retrieve a ball or ask a player on an adjacent court to return a ball while a point is in play. When a player returns a ball from an adjacent court, the player shall wait until the point is over on the court where the ball is being returned and then return it directly to one of the players, preferably the server.

It does say to honor an opponent's request to clear balls from the court, but it also mentions the ball should be "reasonably close to the lines." I've only run into this once ever in my playing career, so I won't spend much time overthinking it. I try to accommodate the other players but felt like I was getting gamed after awhile against this guy.

I think the concept is that you don't wander near adjacent courts to clear balls and get in the way of other courts. Directly behind you is not on an adjacent court. Of course if the ball was right on the fence, I'd question the opponent where they wanted me to clear it to?
If they asked for it back I'd send it back. If they asked me to pocket it, I would say, "no". I don't need the extra weight slowing me down if i'm not serving. I likely already have one ball in my pocket already.

 

[Matthew ATX]

I'd give them two. I don't want someone's serve being iced by an errant loose ball. Just reset and let's go again from the top.

Plus I always appreciate someone looking out for my ankles.

If I were the server, I wouldn't demand two, but would appreciate and accept if offered (it usually is, in my experience.)