Best tactic for Nadal against Federer: STILL hit high loopers to the backhand

[thomasferrett]

So what if Federer's backhand was on fire the last 2 times they played? Will it be on fire 3 times in a row? Or 5? Or 100? Tennis is not a sport of tactics, it is a sport of execution. And especially this complements Nadal's mentality: pound the same thing over and over and over until it works.

Nadal's tactic of hitting high FH loopers to the Federer BH was always the right tactic, and will always be the right tactic. It is the right tactic against anyone in the sport - even Djokovic. A high backhand is always harder to hit than a high forehand, no matter who you are.

What Nadal has to do is just simply execute that tactic better. If his forehand was bouncing 1.8m at the baseline, make it bounce 2.5m. If he was putting 3500rpm on his forehands, put 4000rpm on them.

Put it this way: if Nadal makes each of his forehands a 5000rpm beast that rears up 3m in height at the baseline, do you really think Federer's backhand would be able to cope, no matter how 'improved' it is?

 

[D.Nalby12]

Agreed. Federer can moonball well with bigger frame. Direct deep moon ball DTL BH to Dull BH. Punish short ball with IO FH. point over. In fact he did this twice in IW.

 

[D.Nalby12]

Sorry you said tactic for Nadal. I don't think there is any. He had only one trick in his bag that no longer works. Might work on clay though.

 

[Gazelle]

The problem is OP, while that tactic might be the right one, is Nadal still able to hit those shots?

 

[MasturB]

Should work better in Miami. The conditions are so slow and the court is bouncy. Fed can't just slap backhands for winners like he did at IW and Melbourne. Because those backhands will sit right up into Nadal's strikezone.

 

[thomasferrett]

Conditions are slightly complicated.

Miami is slower for sure, but also definitely lower bouncing than Indian Wells. Federer has had prior success on slower and lower-bouncing hard court (see London WTF surface).

I'm sure I read somewhere that Indian Wells is the highest bouncing hard court surface on tour and bounces higher than most clay courts.

 

[MasturB]

Anyone that's actually watched both can see Indian Wells was not high bouncing like Miami is right now.

 

[RoddickAce]

Thing is...its not just the forehand. His slower movement speed is also a big problem. In the past, Fed would have to go for 5-6+ shots that would have been winners against other players to win a point. The loopy forehand would keep him in the rally as long as he can run down Fed's shots.

Nowadays, Fed can go for 1-2 winner type shots a rally to win the point cuz Rafa isnt able to chase down everything anymore.

 

[dh003i]

Nadal's tactic of hitting high FH loopers to the Federer BH was always the right tactic, and will always be the right tactic. It is the right tactic against anyone in the sport - even Djokovic. A high backhand is always harder to hit than a high forehand, no matter who you are.

High is relative. Nadal's high-bouncing topspin doesn't bother very tall players like Juan Martin Del Potro, Ivo Karlovic, Marinb Cilic, or John Isner nearly as much, if at all. What bothers them is more likely to be low-bouncing slice, drop shots, anything that spins away out of the court and tests their movement and ability to get low.

Put it this way: if Nadal makes each of his forehands a 5000rpm beast that rears up 3m in height at the baseline, do you really think Federer's backhand would be able to cope, no matter how 'improved' it is?

There is a degree of tradeoff between the amount of spin imparted on the ball and pace. Nadal does not have as much bite on his forehand as he used to and can't generate the same combination of pace and topspin as in his prime, and that combination was what was lethal. However, even in his prime, he couldn't consistently generate 5,000rpm topspin forehands with good pace. That was a top measurement. His average forehand had 3,200 rpm on it.

Also, on hard-court surfaces, which have predictable bounce, Federer's new strategy of taking the ball significantly earlier cuts off the advantage of high-bouncing topspin. Nadal can hit high bouncing topspin shots, but he can't force Federer to stand back and let them rise to peak height before hitting them on hard-courts. On clay courts, it is more difficult to take the ball early as the bounce is more unpredictable.

 

[DreddyTennis45]

Blitzing Fed's backhand might be irrelevant if Rafa isn't serving well.

 

[BeatlesFan]

If Fed plays at his Indian Wells level against Nadal, it wont matter what tactics Nadal has. Right now Fed is the better player with infinitely more weapons. He cuts off Nadal's moonballs to the BH by standing inside the baseline and hitting these balls on the rise. Whether Roger can do this today is anyone's guess. He might be gassed or off form. But if he's on, Nadal is not winning.

 

[Surion]

Fed will win in straights, Nadal is done beating him.

 

[Nostradamus]

So what if Federer's backhand was on fire the last 2 times they played? Will it be on fire 3 times in a row? Or 5? Or 100? Tennis is not a sport of tactics, it is a sport of execution. And especially this complements Nadal's mentality: pound the same thing over and over and over until it works.

Nadal's tactic of hitting high FH loopers to the Federer BH was always the right tactic, and will always be the right tactic. It is the right tactic against anyone in the sport - even Djokovic. A high backhand is always harder to hit than a high forehand, no matter who you are.

What Nadal has to do is just simply execute that tactic better. If his forehand was bouncing 1.8m at the baseline, make it bounce 2.5m. If he was putting 3500rpm on his forehands, put 4000rpm on them.

Put it this way: if Nadal makes each of his forehands a 5000rpm beast that rears up 3m in height at the baseline, do you really think Federer's backhand would be able to cope, no matter how 'improved' it is?

Rafa needs to come in on those high looping RPM forehand and cover the down the line passing shot..... and do this 2-3 times per game.

 

[tennis_crazy]

So basically OP wants to break Rafa's wrist.....
His already loopy FH is falling short, the more he goes for spin its going to be another long vacation for Rafa....

 

[coloskier]

Rafa can hit all the moonball FH's to the BH he wants but if land any shallower than 3-4 feet from the baseline he can kiss his *** goodbye. And, unfortunately, most of his FH's have been landing at the service line this week. He hasn't played anyone yet who knows how to attack the short balls.

 

[thomasferrett]

His already loopy FH is falling short, the more he goes for spin its going to be another long vacation for Rafa....

Solution is simple: hit the forehand with extreme topspin (5000+rpm) AND extreme pace (90+mph) AND extreme height (3+m bounce at baseline) AND extreme depth (within a few inches of the baseline) to the Federer backhand. Let's see if the 'improved' backhand can handle that.

 

[Jaitock1991]

I agree. This court seems high bouncing enough for it to work.

 

[Fate Archer]

Also, on hard-court surfaces, which have predictable bounce, Federer's new strategy of taking the ball significantly earlier cuts off the advantage of high-bouncing topspin. Nadal can hit high bouncing topspin shots, but he can't force Federer to stand back and let them rise to peak height before hitting them on hard-courts. On clay courts, it is more difficult to take the ball early as the bounce is more unpredictable.

That, and there is the related problem of an improved backhand return. We can talk about hitting 4000+rpm topspin forehands to Fed's backhand all day, it's all hypothetical and pretty much non practical most of the time. How does a point start, when not on Federer serve? Who's going to take the initiative and therefore command the points and the pace of the game? Federer has always been a prime example to seize that initiative for him, and even more so now that he can begin from the very first ball delivered after the opponent's serve.

 

[Walter Krumholz]

I am in Rafa's Camp; Vamos. Rafa has been playing great. His serve has been great. If he returns Fed's serve well, he'll put pressure on Fed. The weather is hot & humid. Advantage Rafa. Rafa is more Fit than Fed, & accustomed 2 hot, humid conditions. My only concern is Rafa's FH. His exaggerated topspin FH with straight up follow-thru, is enervating and often lands short in court. He runs around his BH too often, which leads him to be out of position, & requires too much running. If possible, Rafa should lengthen his FH stroke, so it'll land deeper in court. That would mean less exaggerated upswing, Topspin. It's not always the number of revolutions of ball that counts, but the depth with which the ball lands in Court. Rafa is Hungry for a win. It is a Matter of Honor. Don Quixote, the Beknighted Man of Le Mancha, Courtesy of Cervantes, ready to fight Windmills, on his Charger, Rocinante, Lance in Hand. Sancho Ponza his loyal companion at his side. Chivalry is not Dead.

 

[dh003i]

Solution is simple: hit the forehand with extreme topspin (5000+rpm) AND extreme pace (90+mph) AND extreme height (3+m bounce at baseline) AND extreme depth (within a few inches of the baseline) to the Federer backhand. Let's see if the 'improved' backhand can handle that.

Good trolling. Absolute prime Nadal regularly hit 3200 rpm or so topspin forehands, not 5000+ rpm topspin shots. It is impossible to hit 5krpm 90mph forehands consistently, even for absolute peak Nadal.

 

[Deleted member 742196]

Silly billy.

Spin comes at the expense of pace. 90mph forehands are not always executable, even with the flattest of strokes.

If you're aiming for consistent 4000+, we're talking about moonballs. If 90+ mph, flat with high degree of errors.

Can't have BOTH 5000 with pace.

That consistent difference between first and second serve speed? It's called spin.

 

[augustobt]

Lol @ these guys.

Do you think that Nadal changed his tactics because he wanted to try something different? He needed because his body can't sustain that anymore. Simple as that. Otherwise we would still be bashing in the end of the court and hitting huge topspins on Federer's backhand. He simply can't do that anymore.

 

[dh003i]

Silly billy.

Spin comes at the expense of pace. 90mph forehands are not always executable, even with the flattest of strokes.

If you're aiming for consistent 4000+, we're talking about moonballs. If 90+ mph, flat with high degree of errors.

Can't have BOTH 5000 with pace.

That consistent difference between first and second serve speed? It's called spin.

Yes, this alleged strategy would be like saying at the height of Nadal's powers from 2005-2008, say at the 2006 FO Final, that Federer should just hit the lines on every shots. In fact, Wilander said something like that about the first set of the 2006 FO, that Federer didn't really stick to the plan, he just hit it and it went in and hit winner after winner after winner.

 

[Deleted member 742196]

Yes, this alleged strategy would be like saying at the height of Nadal's powers from 2005-2008, say at the 2006 FO Final, that Federer should just hit the lines on every shots. In fact, Wilander said something like that about the first set of the 2006 FO, that Federer didn't really stick to the plan, he just hit it and it went in and hit winner after winner after winner.

So true! Anyone that thinks players actually aim for lines probably hasn't played much tennis. You aim for zones, that's difficult enough with all the variables, hitting lines is a bonus.

 

[TMF]

Sorry you said tactic for Nadal. I don't think there is any. He had only one trick in his bag that no longer works. Might work on clay though.

Last option is to play right handed.

 

[4-string]

Solution is simple: hit the forehand with extreme topspin (5000+rpm) AND extreme pace (90+mph) AND extreme height (3+m bounce at baseline) AND extreme depth (within a few inches of the baseline) to the Federer backhand. Let's see if the 'improved' backhand can handle that.

[emoji849]

 

[thomasferrett]

Spin comes at the expense of pace. 90mph forehands are not always executable, even with the flattest of strokes.

If you're aiming for consistent 4000+, we're talking about moonballs. If 90+ mph, flat with high degree of errors.

Can't have BOTH 5000 with pace.

You CAN have both. All you need to do is swing faster. Nadal just needs to up the racket head speed on the forehand, and he's there. Once he gets that shot down there's nothing the Federer backhand can do... except break down.

 

[heninfan99]

Fed is killing him by not only taking those backhands on the rise but by using incredible angles on his inside forehands and CC forehands. I think nadal should hit down the middle more(not exclusively but more) and take away the extreme angles from the Maestro.

Nadal also has to use the DTL backhand a lot more to surprise said Maestro. Nadal's backhand is pretty flat and he can really drive it when he wants to.

Court positioning is a losing battle right now too.

 

[spirit95]

Question is why did Federer never do this before. 13 years of getting destroyed by loopy forehands and only now he magically improves his bh? I don't believe it

Nadal has simply declined more than Federer and that's all there is to it. He's been slicing less which gives the impression of it being 'better' but in reality no one was talking about his amazing bh improvement until the AO final when Nadal wasn't able to work it down like normal.

 

[SLD76]

Question is why did Federer never do this before. 13 years of getting destroyed by loopy forehands and only now he magically improves his bh? I don't believe it

Nadal has simply declined more than Federer and that's all there is to it. He's been slicing less which gives the impression of it being 'better' but in reality no one was talking about his amazing bh improvement until the AO final when Nadal wasn't able to work it down like normal.

I think when you have a game that works against 99 percent of the field its hard yo just abandon it


Someone posted about Annacone trying to get Fed to change raquets for years


Well finally,.in an effort to prolong his career and improve his chances of winning, he changed raquets and we see the effect that has on the bh


So the correct answer is, Fed has indeed tweaked his game


But it also helps that Nadal has declined physically significantly.

We all agree Nadal has more mileage on him than Fed.

His physicality was the key to beating Fed. He could run everything down til he got into position to punish with the forehand, which he was able to hit deep with spin or find vicious angles

As the legs go, so goes the power and heft behind your shot and the ability to hit well out of position


Rafas running fh dtl is more likely to go wide or in the net than be a screaming winner.

Legs ain't there no more

 

[thomasferrett]

Nadal lost this match because he hit (and served) to the Federer forehand more than he ever has before. Not surprisingly, he got burnt by that.

Every time he reverted to the ol' faithful and started abusing Federer's backhand, he would start to come out on top in rallies.

He is giving Federer's 'new' backhand waaaay too much respect. So what if it's beaten him in 2 matches, he should demand it to beat him in 20 matches in a row, see if it holds up.

This was a classic example of thinking too much, trying to be inventive and not just doing what has always worked.

Remember, tennis is not a game of tactics, it is a very simple game, and flawless execution of extremely basic tactics is 99% of the sport.

 

[guanzishou]

Nadal ain't got no tactic no more. He can't even hit the moonball forehand over the net. The only tactic left now is to ask tio to lower the net.

Joking aside, nowadays hitting to Federer's backhand is as scary as hitting to Federer's forehand. Fedr is not afraid of attacking any balls. He is relaxed, he plays freely and he has nothing to prove. When he has nothing to worry anymore he is a very very dangerous player. That is his new found strength. Freedom. Federer is now liberated from the shackles that limited his game. Federer is just enjoying the ride and grab whatever opportunities that is offered in front of him. He is just on auto pilot now.