Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Here you go! At about :25 seconds: http://www.britishpathe.com/video/professional-tennis-tournament/query/pancho+segura
best to never win a major men & women
- Thread starter boredone3456
- Start date
Here you go! At about :25 seconds: http://www.britishpathe.com/video/professional-tennis-tournament/query/pancho+segura
kiki
Banned
I agree with Curren.In terms of pure talent, Lutz comes to mind, Pecci and Gottfried would aslo qualify.
Vitas won also a WCT championship, which was certainly a big title in the 70´s.
kiki
Banned
Damn true...and Mecir won the much coveted WCT finals, in 1987.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
True, although I would argue that Shriver was usually able to beat players she was expected to beat. She won way more singles titles then Sukova did and despite pretty much never playing the French Open in singles was able to get to number 3 in the rankings. Shriver may not have been able to beat the big guns, but she at the very least imposed her game consistently on everyone outside of Evert, Navratilova, Graf, Mandlokova and Austin. Sukova was more capable of beating them but she couldn't consistently beat everyone else. She would make a major final then go out in the 4th round at the next one. Shriver at least consistently made QF's and SF's...although she always lost them. At least when Shriver was ranked high she could justify beaing there because she consistently beat those ranked lower...I honestly can't really say the same for Sukova. Going into a major if Pam was seeded high, in her best years you could believe she'd be in the 2nd week..Sukova...not so much. When Sukova got there...she did well..but she didn't often get there. Pam got there..but always did badly. Its almost a wash. Do you value consistency or the occassional flash in the Pan. However at the end of the day neither one was a threat to Evert/Navratilova consistently enough to believe they'd win a major with them in the field anyway...its almost a moot point. I usually tip the favor to shriver if only for her ability to actually look better then the rest of the field outside the 3-5 big guns on the tour. Sukova couldn't really do that all the time.
kiki
Banned
Nusslein and Segura must be considered.So would Hozeluh the guy that beat Tilden when Big Bill became a pro.
Mayer and Ramirez were excellent players.So was Biran Gottfried, who reached the RG final back in 1977.
and, in terms of talent, I can´t help think about Vijay Amritraj and also Kevin Curren.
kiki
Banned
The guy beat Borg,Mc Enroe at the Masters, also beat Connors at Sidney and Lendl at Rome.When he was on, he was just every bit of dangerous of Mecir.In fact, Mayer was a former Mecir or Mecir a late Mayer.Both had terrific talent and, were extremely smart at tactics and touch play.
Gene had just one big problem, that avoided him reach a higher status: legendary and constant injuries.
Roche and Hoad would certainly win more slam titles than they did hadn´t they been so seriously injuried.Same about Manuel Orantes, who went to the surjeon about every 6 months or so during his career.
But Orantes,Roche and specially Hoad won major titles and reached several major finals, which Mayer never achieved.
pc1
G.O.A.T.
I enjoyed watching every one of the players you mentioned and I agree with everything you wrote. It's especially sad with Hoad, he may have been the best player ever.
kiki
Banned
I saw Hoad just in minor exos, well past his prime.I think he must be one of the most spectacular, if not the most spectacular player ever.
But I watched Roche, Orantes and Mayer a few times and were just such a joy to watch.A lot has been said about Roche´s and Orantes game.
But very few posters ever watched peak Mayer play one of those days he was really inspired and healthy and confident...I did and it was just like watching the best Mecir.They kept constantly surprising you with ultrasmart shots, full of touch ( like Nastase,Orantes or Santana), and a flair for the unexpected.
I saw Mayer beat Borg live, he even toyed with the swede for a while...
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Hey Kros, you asked for video of Segura's forehand. Did you see this link I posted?
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
I saw Gene Mayer play at the Jr. Orange Bowl in the early 70's. He beat the guy who played #1 on my high school varsity team 6-2, 6-3, as I recall.
kiki
Banned
Davidson won the French a couple of times.
Nice video, thanks, and terrific form on that FH.
CStennis11
New User
Verkerk!!! 
Seriously though how about Guillermo Coria. He was a great clay courter in his prime.
Seriously though how about Guillermo Coria. He was a great clay courter in his prime.
Juan Ma Del Pony
Professional
Verkerk!!!
That loss to Gaudio was the worst thing that ever happened to this guy. I still don't understand how that even happened. Gaudio never even made a QF at a Slam before OR after winning that RG '04. Major, major choke on Coria's part. Definitely one of the best claycourters never to win RG.
1
1970CRBase
Guest
imo everybody who should have gotten their slam(s) on the WTA side did, all those who didn't shouldn't have.
I can think of a player who deserves the title of best player who never won her major, and that is Motoko Obayashi the Japanese women's volleyball player who is surely the best, greatest player never to win her Olympic Gold medal.
I can think of a player who deserves the title of best player who never won her major, and that is Motoko Obayashi the Japanese women's volleyball player who is surely the best, greatest player never to win her Olympic Gold medal.
Doug_Hartley_2012
Rookie
Rios, Philippoussis, Okker, McNamara, Clerc, Mecir, Barazzutti, Ralston, Richey, Mayotte, Ramirez, Gottfried, Stockton, Solomon, Dibbs, Leconte.
treblings
Hall of Fame
some people on that list that i really don´t understand
Peter McNamara for example. top ten for some time, but that´s about it as far as i remember. was he close?
loved McNamara/McNamee as doubles team btw
kiki
Banned
some people on that list that i really don´t understand
Peter McNamara for example. top ten for some time, but that´s about it as far as i remember. was he close?
loved McNamara/McNamee as doubles team btw
The Mc namacs were great, the only team talking face to face with Mc and Fleming.Peter was very hard to beat, won Hamburg and was a factor on clay during 1981-1982-1983 but faded away... after that controversy with Vilas.
I like most of the names on that list.But I´d add Pecci, Gorman,Raltson,Riessen and, above all, Zeljo Franulovic and Bob Lutz, two great talents...and Mark Cox had also big potential.
treblings
Hall of Fame
don´t remember any controversy with vilas. do tell.
clay would have been mcnamaras best surface, but i don´t see him winning RG
i like the names on the list too, some of them i just don´t see as major winners.
looking forward to seeing mark cox play in person at a senior tournament we both attend(different age groups
)
treblings
Hall of Fame
Dibbs, Mayotte, Barazutti,Richey
all fine players, but not necessarily fitting the bill, imo
Edberg&Becker
New User
nalbandian david, the fat talented
kiki
Banned
don´t remember any controversy with vilas. do tell.
clay would have been mcnamaras best surface, but i don´t see him winning RG
i like the names on the list too, some of them i just don´t see as major winners.
looking forward to seeing mark cox play in person at a senior tournament we both attend(different age groups
1983 Vilas vs Mc Namara final at Rotterdam.The start of the issue Vilas.
kiki
Banned
Dibbs, Mayotte, Barazutti,Richey
all fine players, but not necessarily fitting the bill, imo
Mayotte was a very good S&V player, much like Todd Martin and perforemd extremely well on grass.But he lacked more shots or a winning atittude to really becoma a slam contender.Barazutti was a solid clay courter, but didn´t have a winning stroke, Richey was very much alike, great fighter who, IMO, overachieved a bit.
Dibbs was a really good player, fast, superb two handed backhand, solid and corageous, just lacked a winning shot and the body to be a contender in the Borg,Connors,Vilas,Lendl and Mc Enroe era.I liked him playing but he just reached two major semifinals ( 1975,76 Roland Garros) and the 1978 WCT final where he was roundly beaten by a top form Vitas Gerulaitis.
treblings
Hall of Fame
the interesting part for me is that you think McNamara ´faded away´after that incident. that must have been some incident.
kiki
Banned
Acussed Vilas of doping.Like in jail, he´d suffer from peers.
kiki
Banned
This could be a good choice, since Kovacs is reputed as having one of the finest backhand strokes ever.His return of serve bewildered the top pros ( Like Budge or Vines) right in the period of WWII.
What if we go with...the best player who never won...? for example, Rosewall won all the majors except Wimbledon, where he played 4 finals, 2 of them considered among the best ever ( 1954 vs Drobny, 1970 vs Newcombe)..he is , to me, the best ever player not to win at the All England.
Nastase,c ertainly, would also be in my top 5..for the other 3 names, I´d say Stlle, a three times beaten finalist and...who else?
pc1
G.O.A.T.
He was very young when he turned pro. I have no doubt he would have won many Wimbledons.
kiki
Banned
He turned por in 1950.He was just 21 ans 22 when he won back to back Forest Hills.I don´t think he could beat top Sedgman,Patty or Drobny at Wimbledon until, say, 1953 or 1954.
kiki
Banned
They are pretty good, but compared to Rosewall´s never winning at Wimbledon...
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
This is a good lead in to my next question..
What if we were to speculate on who is the best to never win each individual major? For instance..is Rosewall the best to not win Wimbledon? Or is Lendl?
Is Clijsters the best female to not win the French? Or how about Hingis? Is Goolagong defacto the best to not.win the Us Open? Does Roddick deserve a mention for his Federer wall at Wimbledon?
Mustard
Bionic Poster
It has to be Rosewall. Rosewall was unable to play at a load of Wimbledons due to turning professional after shocking Hoad in the finals of the 1956 US Championships, so missed 11 Wimbledons from 1957-1967. Rosewall was just unlucky not to win Wimbledon, and I think he's clearly the best player not to win it as he was a great grass-court player in every sense of the word.
Lendl was the most fanatical about wanting to win Wimbledon, but he wasn't quite good enough, and 1990 Queen's Club aside, Lendl never looked entirely comfortable on grass in his career.
I find it ironic that 1983 was when Lendl had his easiest run to the Wimbledon semi finals, dropping just 1 set on the way to the semis, at a time before he was obsessed with winning the tournament. And in the semis, he narrowly lost to McEnroe in 3 tight sets with Chris Lewis waiting in the final. All the other years after this when Lendl was a serious contender at Wimbledon, he would pull out tough matches every year. In 1984, Lendl narrowly won 5-setters against Dick Stockton and Scott Davis before losing to Connors in 4 sets in the semi finals. In 1985, he barely escaped a 5-set match against Mike Leach and was hammered by Leconte in the R16. In 1986, Lendl had a tight 4-setter against Matt Anger, and survived tough 5-setters against Tim Mayotte and Slobodan Zivojinovic before losing to Becker in the final.
1987 Wimbledon saw Lendl have a lot of tight matches, a 4-setter against Saceanu, then coming from 0-1 and 1-2 down in sets against Cane, another tough 4-setter against Reneberg, an easier match against Kriek, but then tough matches against Leconte and Edberg before Cash beats him badly in the final. 1988 saw Lendl having to come from behind to beat Cahill, and win 5-setters against Schapers and Woodforde (10-8 in the fifth set in the Woodforde match), before Becker beat Lendl in the semi finals. 1989 saw Lendl have a 5-setter in his R128 match against Nicolas Pereira, and then go a set down to Ronnie Bathman in the R64, and again against Peter Lundgren (R16). Lendl, though, appeared to have cracked it in the semi finals against Becker, leading 2 sets to 1 and a break up in the fourth set at 3-2, but was immediately broken back and the match agonisingly slipped from his grasp and he lost in 5 sets.
Lendl then announced he wasn't even going to play any of the 1990 clay-court season because he wanted to practice on grass, and also had a grass-court built at his house in place of the US Open style court. 1990 Queen's Club saw Lendl look utterly dominant on grass for the only time in his career, doing virtually everything perfectly as he won the tournament without dropping a set. But when 1990 Wimbledon came around, Lendl suddenly looked far less formidable, dropping sets to Miniussi, Shelton, Antonitsch and Pearce before losing tamely to Edberg in the semi finals where Lendl was remarkably flat.
1991 Wimbledon was the first serious sign that Lendl's career as a whole was on the decline, coming from 2 sets down to beat MaliVai Washington before losing in the R32 to David Wheaton in 4 sets, his earliest exit at a major in exactly 10 years. At 1992 Wimbledon, Lendl had tough matches against Arne Thoms and a 5-setter against Sandon Stolle, and despite winning a first set tiebreak against Goran Ivanisevic, failed to even get a break point on the Goran serve and Lendl was forced to retire injured after being broken in the opening game of the fourth set when down 1-2 in sets. Lendl's last match at Wimbledon in 1993 was a hammering by Arnaud Boetsch.
With all this in mind, I think Lendl did incredibly well to have as good a record at Wimbledon as he has, but he was never quite good enough to actually win the title. I'm not sure if him deciding to serve and volley on first and second serves at Wimbledon was a good idea for him, and it certainly wasn't in the 1987 Wimbledon final against Cash, with Cash at the peak of his serve and volley powers. Rosewall, on the other hand, was surely good enough, but for the long absence he had to endure due to being a professional player from September 1956 onwards.
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kiki
Banned
Good questions.I agree for Rosewall ( but Nastase,Lendl,Stolle also being serious candidates) as the best ever non W champion.I also agree on Cawley,Clijsters,Hingis, they should all be considered.
As for Wimbledon ladies, Hana Mandlikova should be the equivalent of Rosewall...and Roche could easily be the best ever non US Open winner ( obviously, behind a certain Bjorn Borg)
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
To answer.my own question I will just name my shortlist for each major for now
Men
Australian: Honestly way to many to name especially considering how few played it years ago. I think you would have to split in into the grass days and the hardcourt days..and for the grass days the list would be pretty long
French: Djokovic, Edberg, Becker, Coria. Some might say Sampras bit well...I dont know. I almost feel all the really really great clay players did win it...and the greats who didnt win here well...were not amazing on clay.
Wimbledon: Rosewall, Lendl, Roddick
Us Open: Again tough because of surface changes.
Women
Australian: Again...surface changes and.turnout make the list kinda long. Lenglen,Wills, obvious choices just to name somebody. Then more recently maybe Venus.
French: Clijsters, Hingis, honorable mentions for Sabatini and Conchita Martinez
Wimledon: Mandlikova, Henin....i'll give seles a mention only because she won multple everywhere else.
Us Open: Goolagong, Lenglen...I guess I could throw recent players Capriati and Dementieva a mention for there deep runs here from the last decade of former players to hang it up...but I dont really think either is the best to never win it.
I am sure i missed some. I just names some very obvious tip top of my head people
Men
Australian: Honestly way to many to name especially considering how few played it years ago. I think you would have to split in into the grass days and the hardcourt days..and for the grass days the list would be pretty long
French: Djokovic, Edberg, Becker, Coria. Some might say Sampras bit well...I dont know. I almost feel all the really really great clay players did win it...and the greats who didnt win here well...were not amazing on clay.
Wimbledon: Rosewall, Lendl, Roddick
Us Open: Again tough because of surface changes.
Women
Australian: Again...surface changes and.turnout make the list kinda long. Lenglen,Wills, obvious choices just to name somebody. Then more recently maybe Venus.
French: Clijsters, Hingis, honorable mentions for Sabatini and Conchita Martinez
Wimledon: Mandlikova, Henin....i'll give seles a mention only because she won multple everywhere else.
Us Open: Goolagong, Lenglen...I guess I could throw recent players Capriati and Dementieva a mention for there deep runs here from the last decade of former players to hang it up...but I dont really think either is the best to never win it.
I am sure i missed some. I just names some very obvious tip top of my head people
I would add Wilander to the list of top players never to win Wimbledon. While he was never considered a favorite (like Lendl), nor was grass his best surface, he did win 7 majors including 2 AOs on grass, and won the Wimbledon doubles title. His game was not that dissimilar to Borg who won 5 W titles.
Doug_Hartley_2012
Rookie
Pancho Segura.
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