Can Swinging Inside-out On Your Strokes Really Help?

[Bungalo Bill]

I was reading through my books to refresh my memory on some excellent advice from well-known coaches like John Yandell and Vic Braden. As you know, I am back on the courts teaching my daughter how to hit a ball. It is difficult to remember everything and that is why I am spending some time refreshing my memory on some of the basics.

I stumbled on this little gem from Vic Braden and thought I would share this with you since most of your questions are about hitting a better groundstroke.

Swing Inside-Out, Like a Golfer (Page 62, Tennis 2000 by Vic Braden and Bill Bruns)

If you are turning from golf to tennis (BB's comments: as my friend Puma has ), and you have a good golf swing, you should be the happiest person alive. All that money you spent on lessons is now going to pay off in dividends because the efficient golf swing and the proper forehand (BB's comments: for that matter the backhand as well) share many similiarities, such as

1. The head must be kept down and eyes focused on the point of impact

2. The shoulders must rotate in sync, slightly before the ball is met

3. The real power is derived from the movement of the hips and the thighs as you contact the ball

4. There is an "inside-out" movement of the body and arms before impact so that the club or racket makes solid contact with the ball.

Most tennis players, especially those who swing on a horizontal plane, have difficulty in grasping the inside-out concept. They are accustomed to starting their swing out away from the body, and moving into their body with the forward motion of the hitting arm. This swing pulls the ball cross-court and with less power. Hitting inside-out, however, means the hitting arm is fairly close or "in" to the body on the backswing and the forward striking motion is away from the body. At first you get the feeling that you're going to hit the ball off to the right of your target (BB's comment: opposite is true for the backhand, it feels like you are always going to hit left of your target). That, in fact, is the feeling you want. But if you can get your racket and racket hand lower than the ball on the backswing and swing inside-out, your palm and racket face will point to your intended target at impact, and will often be parallel to the net.

The inside-out forehand contributes to a successul forehand in many ways.

1. It leads to greater control and consistency by allowing the racket face to remain on target with the ball much longer than does a horizontal swing.

2. Inside-out keeps you from pulling across your body

3. It forces you to contact the ball out away from your body, which lengthens the radius of your stroke and thus gives you more power with the same energy input. (BB's comment: POWER = CLEAN CONTACT + TIMING)

4. Since your energy flow is out toward your target, you can pull off one of the game's toughest plays: the passing shot down-the-line when your opponent is coming to the net.

Yet swinging inside-out does not restrict you from hitting cross-court.

Assuming you get down properly with your thighs and your racket, the movement of your hips is the key to the inside-out movement. As you shift your weight forward into the ball, rotate your hips slightly ahead of your upper body (as in golf) so that your right hip turns in toward the target.

Think about rolling your hips into the ball and directing your body's inertia (BB's comments: Inertia, 1....of a body in straight line motion to stay in motion in a straight line unless acted on by an outside force.) out toward your opponents backhand (assuming you are BOTH righthanded). Knowing when to turn the hips is a tricky little manuever, and some people find it easier to visualize their palm swinging out toward the right net post (BB's comment: Opposite for backhands, this little bolded area that I did is huge. This helps stop overrotation and pulling), instead of trying to relate to the hips.

But remember, use your arm more to perfect the stroke pattern, and let your body generate the power. Relying on your arm to supply the power will only lead to a greater number of errors.

One reason why tennis players have trouble swining inside-out is that they simultaenously try to swing on a horizontal plane. You may think, "I'm so accurate that I can swing horizontally, hit the ball out toward my target, and follow through across my body". But if you can do that, I's like to get it on film, because I've never seen it happen before. You can't fight physical laws. When you swing horizontally, your hips want to bring you around like a spinning tp and it's virtually impossible to snap them forward and out toward the target. You are swinging from outside-in, across your body, and your racquet face can only stay pointed toward the target for an instant. This doesn't allow you much margin for timing errors.

 

[AngeloDS]

Are there any good clips online of showing this? I think I do inside-outside forehands, but not completely sure.

Sometimes in a crunch, my elbow will stick close to my body and sort of act like a hinge as I hit through the ball and it ends up with my elbow in front of me like when you go to scratch your left back with your right hand. But I think all my power gets derives from my body mass moving through the ball. My upper body almost turning 180 while my legs are planted.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Are there any good clips online of showing this? I think I do inside-outside forehands, but not completely sure.

Sometimes in a crunch, my elbow will stick close to my body and sort of act like a hinge as I hit through the ball and it ends up with my elbow in front of me like when you go to scratch your left back with your right hand. But I think all my power gets derives from my body mass moving through the ball. My upper body almost turning 180 while my legs are planted.

If you stood facing a fence and swung the racquet so the tip of the racquet runs along the fence about three inches away, you should feel the stroke pull you toward the fence to maintain the tip of your racquets distance away from the fence. It will feel real long.

Most players do it better on the forehand side then the backhand side. It will also feel like, for the forehand, that you are going to hit everything to the opponents backhand side or his left side (if he is right handed). On the backhand side it feels like everything is going to your opponents forehand side or his right side. Let it happen this way for ahwile and just make clean contact.

 

[mattm]

excellent description. Thanks.
m

 

[Ztalin]

So what exactly is an "inside out" forehand? Following through a ball up over one's right shoulder (rightie)? I don't completely understand as I'm just trying to picture it.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

So what exactly is an "inside out" forehand? Following through a ball up over one's right shoulder (rightie)? I don't completely understand as I'm just trying to picture it.

No, the followthrough will happen normally, it is the initial part of the swing that heads for the ball. It lengthens your stroke through the ball instead of pulling off too soon. For the onehanded backhand, this causes the racquet to go more out toward the target and finish high and then around for a normal recovery.

Vic also points out to hit the ball more from the hip instead of the arm. The hip turns into the ball and the arm follows effortlessly through the ball. He is saying to generate your power from the body instead of the arm. Dont forget to get lower then the ball and uncoil upward.

 

[Ztalin]

Ahhh, I'll definitely have to try that today, although I don't see how beneficial it can be.

 

[tennisplayer]

Thanks, BB, for posting this. I had discovered this myself, and have been using this technique for a while now. The increase in control is amazing, indeed, especially on my 2HBH. When I look at the strokes of most pros, they all seem to be doing it... only I had not noticed it until I went looking for it!

The thing that made me do this was, I needed a longer swing path, especially for low and flat balls which I face often in matches, to generate pace and spin for both my FH and 2HBH. So I started by hitting on the "outside" of the ball. To do this, I had to start my swing from the inside going outside, thus getting a longer swing path, and a more circular swing.

I must admit that I am able to do it better with my FH, although I need it more for my 2HBH. One problem I have is that once the ball starts dropping on my backhand side, especially a slow ball, I am better off slicing than trying a 2HBH topspin shot even with the inside out technique.

Edit: As a side effect, heavily topspun shots also pick up a sideways jump.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Thanks, BB, for posting this. I had discovered this myself, and have been using this technique for a while now. The increase in control is amazing, indeed, especially on my 2HBH. When I look at the strokes of most pros, they all seem to be doing it... only I had not noticed it until I went looking for it!

The thing that made me do this was, I needed a longer swing path, especially for low and flat balls which I face often in matches, to generate pace and spin for both my FH and 2HBH. So I started by hitting on the "outside" of the ball. To do this, I had to start my swing from the inside going outside, thus getting a longer swing path, and a more circular swing.

I must admit that I am able to do it better with my FH, although I need it more for my 2HBH. One problem I have is that once the ball starts dropping on my backhand side, especially a slow ball, I am better off slicing than trying a 2HBH topspin shot even with the inside out technique.

Edit: As a side effect, heavily topspun shots also pick up a sideways jump.

With the twohander let your back hip intiate the move outward. The arms will follow and flow outward. You should feel a solid hit and the arms should go out more toward the target.

The hips are what sends the momentum of the swing/racquet out to the target more before breaking off and coming around.

 

[fist pump]

I am trying to develop the 2H backhand right now and i trying hard not to run around my forehand and do any inside out FH.

but the inside out Fh really is a good tool .....

 

[Puma]

BB,

Excellent post. The instructor giving me lessons maintains the same thing, ie the inside out path. I am struggling with this as it requires getting into a better position. At least for me. It also makes for very clean contact.


"With the twohander let your back hip intiate the move outward. The arms will follow and flow outward. You should feel a solid hit and the arms should go out more toward the target."


The above is true in golf. If any golfers out there want to cure your slice, here is your answer stated above in tennis terms. Essentially, you are attacking the ball from the inside.

There was a post sometime ago about adding sidespin with topspin. Someone referenced Federer and his "hook" forehand. All he does to do this is attack the "inside" of the ball, with the racket moving toward the outside of the target line with the racket face pointing toward his target. The result is a ball that flies to the right somewhat and hooks back in. This is absolutely the same thing as a "draw" in golf.

For me, cool stuff. I already know this in golf, but in tennis it is so hard for me to do.

Great post BB

 

[Bungalo Bill]

BB,

Excellent post. The instructor giving me lessons maintains the same thing, ie the inside out path. I am struggling with this as it requires getting into a better position. At least for me. It also makes for very clean contact.


"With the twohander let your back hip intiate the move outward. The arms will follow and flow outward. You should feel a solid hit and the arms should go out more toward the target."


The above is true in golf. If any golfers out there want to cure your slice, here is your answer stated above in tennis terms. Essentially, you are attacking the ball from the inside.

There was a post sometime ago about adding sidespin with topspin. Someone referenced Federer and his "hook" forehand. All he does to do this is attack the "inside" of the ball, with the racket moving toward the outside of the target line with the racket face pointing toward his target. The result is a ball that flies to the right somewhat and hooks back in. This is absolutely the same thing as a "draw" in golf.

For me, cool stuff. I already know this in golf, but in tennis it is so hard for me to do.

Great post BB

I was just watching some onehanded backhands at 1/16 speed already in slo-mo, so it was real slow. The players I watched were Haas, Guga, and Philapoussis (never get his spelling correct, but you know who I mean).

It is so clear to see. All of them intiate the back hip back towards the 45 degree angle after coiling away from it and their shoulder rotation and arm follows. It looks so effortless.

The hip move is not a "jerk" or snap of the hip (although at times you need to do this if you are jammed or pressed for time), it just goes forward back out toward the net post and everything else is sort pulled back toward the ball.

Because there is some torque from the hip here (not too much but you can see it come forward as the shoulders are still slightly coiling, most of the shots caused the non-dominant arm to go back keeping the inside-out swing to the ball through contact. The arm went out, out, out, out towards the target and then came around with the back foot coming around.

Got to have bent knees to execute this.

 

[jeebeesus]

Yup that`s right. i get my students to face me but aim for a target like the netpost on the forehand side. That guarantees an inside out swing.Ditto for the single or dbh,but target this time is the other netpost.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Yup that`s right. i get my students to face me but aim for a target like the netpost on the forehand side. That guarantees an inside out swing.Ditto for the single or dbh,but target this time is the other netpost.

Havent seen your threads in awhile. Welcome back!

 

[jeebeesus]

Havent seen your threads in awhile. Welcome back!

Hey thanks buddy, i`ve been around.

 

[DoubleHanded&LovinIt]

Bungalo Bill,
Thanks a lot for your informative post. I can really feel a difference in my swing speed. I got so caught up with the idea of hitting out front that instead of rotating around, from inside-out, I was pulling my arm, across by body and hit out front in that fashion. What I wanted to ask you pertains to the slice. In golf, a slice is hit when one comes over the top, swinging from outside in. For the right-hander, this results in a ball that starts left and comes back, weakly, to the right. In tennis, the slice termionlogy is less clear. Some refer to slice to simply mean underspin. Some refer to slice in the golf sense. In your opinion, what swing-style should we use to produce a quality slice backhand? Should we still swing inside-out and also high-to-low? Thanks in advance.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

...In golf, a slice is hit when one comes over the top, swinging from outside in. For the right-hander, this results in a ball that starts left and comes back, weakly, to the right. In tennis, the slice termionlogy is less clear. Some refer to slice to simply mean underspin. Some refer to slice in the golf sense.

It is funny how terms "stick" with us when they are not very accurate. IT is more of a "general" meaning to all of us and paints a certain picture we can all agree upon in our minds.

Just as we hit TOPSPIN for groundstrokes, its counterpart is UNDERSPIN and not slice. The term slice should be used for the serve. But who is going to go on that crusade. So when one refers to the slice backhand, it is really the underspin backhand. I wouldnt go around trying to correct everyone unless you want to alienate yourself from people. Most people dont care.

In your opinion, what swing-style should we use to produce a quality slice backhand? Should we still swing inside-out and also high-to-low? Thanks in advance.

It is pretty much inside-out but in a sense straighter. The swing path is high low high. I tend to focus on on hitting the middle to tophalf of the ball with an emphasis to hit the outside of the ball. If I want to put some side spin on it, I will come across it a little.

It is a lot like golf. Once you learn how to hit a straight ball, that is when you venture into learning to hit a fade and a hook. The difference is you are trying to do it to go around some trees or other obstacles.

 

[Mahboob Khan]

Want to improve your upper body turn on your forehands? Try insideout forehands!

Stand in the deuce side of the court (forehand side); ask a partner to feed a ball to your backhand (ad court); you move in a C pattern to hit a forehand insideout (ad court). You will feel that your upper body has turned automatically. For this reason alone some players hit better forehands from their backhand corner than their forehand corner!

 

[Gonzalez_Forehand]

"Vic also points out to hit the ball more from the hip instead of the arm. The hip turns into the ball and the arm follows effortlessly through the ball. He is saying to generate your power from the body instead of the arm. Dont forget to get lower then the ball and uncoil upward." (BB)

This really is it - the difference between decent hitting and good hitting.

I have this awful mental block which disables me from even trying this when I'm on the court. I can hit the ball with both power and spin but when I play guys that used to be ATP ranked, their shots are visibly superior in both departments - quite simply because I'm 80% reliant on my arm for power.

The shot seems so much more effortless when you swing from the hip and generate power from the body, not the arm. Your arm is loose and just whips through naturally creating much more head speed.

And there I am, busting my @ss trying to arm the ball and get as much power.

I'ma get out on a practice wall and do this until it becomes natural to me. The only time I tried it before, I over-rotated (my body) and lost control of the shot, probably not watching the ball. If you keep looking up before contact, all you're gonna see is a bad shot...

 

[Bungalo Bill]

"Vic also points out to hit the ball more from the hip instead of the arm. The hip turns into the ball and the arm follows effortlessly through the ball. He is saying to generate your power from the body instead of the arm. Dont forget to get lower then the ball and uncoil upward." (BB)

This really is it - the difference between decent hitting and good hitting.

I have this awful mental block which disables me from even trying this when I'm on the court. I can hit the ball with both power and spin but when I play guys that used to be ATP ranked, their shots are visibly superior in both departments - quite simply because I'm 80% reliant on my arm for power.

The shot seems so much more effortless when you swing from the hip and generate power from the body, not the arm. Your arm is loose and just whips through naturally creating much more head speed.

And there I am, busting my @ss trying to arm the ball and get as much power.

I'ma get out on a practice wall and do this until it becomes natural to me. The only time I tried it before, I over-rotated (my body) and lost control of the shot, probably not watching the ball. If you keep looking up before contact, all you're gonna see is a bad shot...

Well if you are a Gonzalez fan, you should know that the torso and the hips supply huge amounts of power.

Gonzalez the way he goes for broke on his forehand, has to use the body and he does.

If you guys remember a product called the 8-board (which I have at home), you sort of swivel the hips in a figure 8 fashion and the arms naturally follow. They used it here at USC and had great success as players got to feel their hips more in the shot.

Of course, there is some unlearning to do when we discover the body can supply energy from a different place leaving the arm to do its business (bring the racquet to the ball). Tennis is a process, a journey.

 

[akj27]

bb, got a video or any gifs?

 

[Bungalo Bill]

bb, got a video or any gifs?

You guys sound like my kids. "Daddy, got money? We want candy."

 

[joe sch]

Im very glad to see so much discussion on stroke mechanics and ball contact ! I think this may mean that players are getting tired of the soo much open stances and western brushup grip/stokes. Its so wonderful that Mr Federer has perfected and shown soo many different hits and strokes in his domination of the last few years of tennis, excluding dirt. I highly recommend learing to hit inside, outside and center ball contact points with flat, slice & topspin swings and close to open stances. See what works for various conditions and opponents. Tennis is a beautiful game that allows for many ways of winning points. Expand your game

 

[hotshotMan]

this is what Federer do for all his ground FH & BH. I would add into this technique is releasing your wrist like you throw your racket to the target, just like golf so you can fine tune your stroke.

 

[TennisCJC]

Well this is certainly a blast from the past. When I was a fairly new player back in the 1970s I read Vic's book and sort of dedicated 6 months to working on the stuff in the book. I remember the inside out stroke concept well.

To me, the key point was by starting with your hands close to your body and swinging out and up to contact, you are keeping the racket face on the target line longer. The MTM guys will probably have a cow when they drop in and start talking about hitting across is the correct method instead of staying in line with the target but I don't think it is that simple. Braden understands that the racket face is rising which departs topspin but he said you have a larger optimal hitting zone by staying in line with the target longer. I personally think the Braden inside out and the MTM across concepts are completely compatible. My opinion is a good forehand will have the hand near the back hip as it goes forward to contact. The hand will be relatively close to the back hip as it passes the body going foreward and as the hand goes out to contact, it will move farther away from the body. To me, this is Braden's inside out motion - you are going from close (inside) to your body to away (outside) for contact while your core rotates. This motion does indeed keep the racket head in line with the targeted direction. But, the actually contact with the ball still incorporates an across outside to inside action (R to L for right handed FH). You can envision hitting the lower outside of the ball (lower R for righty FH) and swinging up, thru and across so the face is on the upper inside of the ball (upper L for rigthy FH).

So my theory of tennis is inside-to-out and outside-to-in exist harmoniously in the same swing. If you understand what I've written in any way, you obviously spend too much time on TT. From above a righty FH foreward swing path looks like this shape ) and of course it continues to wrap around in the follow-thru but I don't have a shape that represent the foreward swing and WW finish on my key board. The R parenthesis is moving inside-to-outside at the beginning of the swing and then begins to pull outside-to-inside near contact and into the finish.

By the way, Braden's inside out concept has nothing to do with inside out targeting of the FH where you stand in your BH corner and hit inside out FH to your R for right handed player. Braden's concept can be applied to any FH target.

From op's post and Braden's book:
1. It leads to greater control and consistency by allowing the racket face to remain on target with the ball much longer than does a horizontal swing.

 

[TennisCJC]

"Vic also points out to hit the ball more from the hip instead of the arm. The hip turns into the ball and the arm follows effortlessly through the ball. He is saying to generate your power from the body instead of the arm. Dont forget to get lower then the ball and uncoil upward." (BB)

This really is it - the difference between decent hitting and good hitting.

Agreed. The lock and roll tennis guy's modern FH video on his site talks about rotating the back hip to initiate foreward motion which to me is conceptually the same thing Vic said 40 years ago. The lock and roll guy also uses the Karate Kid drum device - device has a drum on a pole with strings attached. You roll the pole between your palms to rotate the drum to cause the strings to rotate and thump the drum with the pad on the end of the string. Basically, the lock and roll guy is saying use core rotation to swing the arms which is exactly what Vic said.

 

[5263]

The MTM guys will probably have a cow when they drop in and start talking about hitting across is the correct method instead of staying in line with the target but I don't think it is that simple.

I know this won't come across right in print, but..we are on the same page more than you think and this shows how you have gotten the wrong idea about MTM. The inside out stroke is one of the best ways to illustrate how we (and best players) use the Fh. The inside out is how the power fade is hit and Definitely hits across the ball.

"Hitting across" simply means that you don't hit the ball and then hit on thru the ball, extending down the line of shot to the target. I/O Fhs are a great example of NOT hitting down the target line and that seems to be BB's only mistake in this post (or either he means something different by hitting across).

 

[hotshotMan]

I think the point of BB is the benefits of hitting inside out: longer swing, easily using hip rotation, contact to the ball longer (feel more solid). Using core power is a completely different concept.

 

[hotshotMan]

"I have this awful mental block which disables me from even trying this when I'm on the court. I can hit the ball with both power and spin but when I play guys that used to be ATP ranked, their shots are visibly superior in both departments - quite simply because I'm 80% reliant on my arm for power. "

How can you hit with 80% of arm power and the ATP ranked hit with you? It does not make sense to me.

 

[Ioannis]

I was reading through my books to refresh my memory on some excellent advice from well-known coaches like John Yandell and Vic Braden. As you know, I am back on the courts teaching my daughter how to hit a ball. It is difficult to remember everything and that is why I am spending some time refreshing my memory on some of the basics.

I stumbled on this little gem from Vic Braden and thought I would share this with you since most of your questions are about hitting a better groundstroke.

Swing Inside-Out, Like a Golfer (Page 62, Tennis 2000 by Vic Braden and Bill Bruns)

If you are turning from golf to tennis (BB's comments: as my friend Puma has ), and you have a good golf swing, you should be the happiest person alive. All that money you spent on lessons is now going to pay off in dividends because the efficient golf swing and the proper forehand (BB's comments: for that matter the backhand as well) share many similiarities, such as

1. The head must be kept down and eyes focused on the point of impact

2. The shoulders must rotate in sync, slightly before the ball is met

3. The real power is derived from the movement of the hips and the thighs as you contact the ball

4. There is an "inside-out" movement of the body and arms before impact so that the club or racket makes solid contact with the ball.

Most tennis players, especially those who swing on a horizontal plane, have difficulty in grasping the inside-out concept. They are accustomed to starting their swing out away from the body, and moving into their body with the forward motion of the hitting arm. This swing pulls the ball cross-court and with less power. Hitting inside-out, however, means the hitting arm is fairly close or "in" to the body on the backswing and the forward striking motion is away from the body. At first you get the feeling that you're going to hit the ball off to the right of your target (BB's comment: opposite is true for the backhand, it feels like you are always going to hit left of your target). That, in fact, is the feeling you want. But if you can get your racket and racket hand lower than the ball on the backswing and swing inside-out, your palm and racket face will point to your intended target at impact, and will often be parallel to the net.

The inside-out forehand contributes to a successul forehand in many ways.

1. It leads to greater control and consistency by allowing the racket face to remain on target with the ball much longer than does a horizontal swing.

2. Inside-out keeps you from pulling across your body

3. It forces you to contact the ball out away from your body, which lengthens the radius of your stroke and thus gives you more power with the same energy input. (BB's comment: POWER = CLEAN CONTACT + TIMING)

4. Since your energy flow is out toward your target, you can pull off one of the game's toughest plays: the passing shot down-the-line when your opponent is coming to the net.

Yet swinging inside-out does not restrict you from hitting cross-court.

Assuming you get down properly with your thighs and your racket, the movement of your hips is the key to the inside-out movement. As you shift your weight forward into the ball, rotate your hips slightly ahead of your upper body (as in golf) so that your right hip turns in toward the target.

Think about rolling your hips into the ball and directing your body's inertia (BB's comments: Inertia, 1....of a body in straight line motion to stay in motion in a straight line unless acted on by an outside force.) out toward your opponents backhand (assuming you are BOTH righthanded). Knowing when to turn the hips is a tricky little manuever, and some people find it easier to visualize their palm swinging out toward the right net post (BB's comment: Opposite for backhands, this little bolded area that I did is huge. This helps stop overrotation and pulling), instead of trying to relate to the hips.

But remember, use your arm more to perfect the stroke pattern, and let your body generate the power. Relying on your arm to supply the power will only lead to a greater number of errors.

One reason why tennis players have trouble swining inside-out is that they simultaenously try to swing on a horizontal plane. You may think, "I'm so accurate that I can swing horizontally, hit the ball out toward my target, and follow through across my body". But if you can do that, I's like to get it on film, because I've never seen it happen before. You can't fight physical laws. When you swing horizontally, your hips want to bring you around like a spinning tp and it's virtually impossible to snap them forward and out toward the target. You are swinging from outside-in, across your body, and your racquet face can only stay pointed toward the target for an instant. This doesn't allow you much margin for timing errors.

I was reading through my books to refresh my memory on some excellent advice from well-known coaches like John Yandell and Vic Braden. As you know, I am back on the courts teaching my daughter how to hit a ball. It is difficult to remember everything and that is why I am spending some time refreshing my memory on some of the basics.

I stumbled on this little gem from Vic Braden and thought I would share this with you since most of your questions are about hitting a better groundstroke.

Swing Inside-Out, Like a Golfer (Page 62, Tennis 2000 by Vic Braden and Bill Bruns)

If you are turning from golf to tennis (BB's comments: as my friend Puma has ), and you have a good golf swing, you should be the happiest person alive. All that money you spent on lessons is now going to pay off in dividends because the efficient golf swing and the proper forehand (BB's comments: for that matter the backhand as well) share many similiarities, such as

1. The head must be kept down and eyes focused on the point of impact

2. The shoulders must rotate in sync, slightly before the ball is met

3. The real power is derived from the movement of the hips and the thighs as you contact the ball

4. There is an "inside-out" movement of the body and arms before impact so that the club or racket makes solid contact with the ball.

Most tennis players, especially those who swing on a horizontal plane, have difficulty in grasping the inside-out concept. They are accustomed to starting their swing out away from the body, and moving into their body with the forward motion of the hitting arm. This swing pulls the ball cross-court and with less power. Hitting inside-out, however, means the hitting arm is fairly close or "in" to the body on the backswing and the forward striking motion is away from the body. At first you get the feeling that you're going to hit the ball off to the right of your target (BB's comment: opposite is true for the backhand, it feels like you are always going to hit left of your target). That, in fact, is the feeling you want. But if you can get your racket and racket hand lower than the ball on the backswing and swing inside-out, your palm and racket face will point to your intended target at impact, and will often be parallel to the net.

The inside-out forehand contributes to a successul forehand in many ways.

1. It leads to greater control and consistency by allowing the racket face to remain on target with the ball much longer than does a horizontal swing.

2. Inside-out keeps you from pulling across your body

3. It forces you to contact the ball out away from your body, which lengthens the radius of your stroke and thus gives you more power with the same energy input. (BB's comment: POWER = CLEAN CONTACT + TIMING)

4. Since your energy flow is out toward your target, you can pull off one of the game's toughest plays: the passing shot down-the-line when your opponent is coming to the net.

Yet swinging inside-out does not restrict you from hitting cross-court.

Assuming you get down properly with your thighs and your racket, the movement of your hips is the key to the inside-out movement. As you shift your weight forward into the ball, rotate your hips slightly ahead of your upper body (as in golf) so that your right hip turns in toward the target.

Think about rolling your hips into the ball and directing your body's inertia (BB's comments: Inertia, 1....of a body in straight line motion to stay in motion in a straight line unless acted on by an outside force.) out toward your opponents backhand (assuming you are BOTH righthanded). Knowing when to turn the hips is a tricky little manuever, and some people find it easier to visualize their palm swinging out toward the right net post (BB's comment: Opposite for backhands, this little bolded area that I did is huge. This helps stop overrotation and pulling), instead of trying to relate to the hips.

But remember, use your arm more to perfect the stroke pattern, and let your body generate the power. Relying on your arm to supply the power will only lead to a greater number of errors.

One reason why tennis players have trouble swining inside-out is that they simultaenously try to swing on a horizontal plane. You may think, "I'm so accurate that I can swing horizontally, hit the ball out toward my target, and follow through across my body". But if you can do that, I's like to get it on film, because I've never seen it happen before. You can't fight physical laws. When you swing horizontally, your hips want to bring you around like a spinning tp and it's virtually impossible to snap them forward and out toward the target. You are swinging from outside-in, across your body, and your racquet face can only stay pointed toward the target for an instant. This doesn't allow you much margin for timing errors.

 

[Ioannis]

Nice approach!
We all agree that the contact point should be on our side about one meter more or less depends on our reach and we all agree that the racket starts to accelerate from behind our body inline with our shoulders not behind the back as the modern atp forehand recommends . If these are facts then the only straight line that passes these two points is an inside our body to outside to the contact point diagonal line, simple geometry. Who can argue that? I tried it and helped me a lot of course it is not easy to break a bad old habits .
I am trying to do this for 6 months now, I am doing well but still need time to apply it under pressure in competition. It is easier to apply this when the ball is coming inside your body rather than outside.

The thing that challenges me the most is the timing of the crosscourt balls coming from my opponent and getting away from me.Those balls are difficult cause in order to hit inside you have to let the ball pass in front of you. In order to get on your side and swing to the ball when it is in the correct point of contact.Which is in your side out of the court in this situation.
The problem is I am afraid of being late or that the ball will pass me.That causes me to turn earlier and miss the inside out path. Also my racket is closer to the body and goes more outside to in, the racket head is too closed because it is in the and of the swing when the contact occurs and of course no power. This also applies to high, loopy and slow sitters.

Even when I have the proper space between me and the ball I feel that I have to wait for the ball to come to the correct spot and so then I can swing out to it.If I start earlier then the same problems that I mentioned before will occur. So when I take proper placement and "wait" for the ball in any situation most of the times the stroke is clean and heavy with more topspin and better placement.
Sometimes when the ball is fast and wide enough I am late because you have to accelerate fast and just before the ball passes you in order to catch the ball in your side and in front . Do you have any tip on how to time those balls better? Does the use of the hips and shoulders rotation affects the swing path? Should we decelerate hips and shoulders before contact or keep driving them through? I am sorry for the huge post and so many questions. Hope you can answer some of them.

 

[5263]

But does the inside out shot relate to the idea of hitting with an inside out swing? Imo it does more than some realize.

 

[beltsman]

This is a great thread!

 

[beltsman]

But does the inside out shot relate to the idea of hitting with an inside out swing? Imo it does more than some realize.

Of course. It's the natural shot. Any player that struggles hitting an inside out FH is probably not hitting any of their fhs correctly.

 

[marian10]

Nice approach!
We all agree that the contact point should be on our side about one meter more or less depends on our reach and we all agree that the racket starts to accelerate from behind our body inline with our shoulders not behind the back as the modern atp forehand recommends . If these are facts then the only straight line that passes these two points is an inside our body to outside to the contact point diagonal line, simple geometry. Who can argue that? I tried it and helped me a lot of course it is not easy to break a bad old habits .
I am trying to do this for 6 months now, I am doing well but still need time to apply it under pressure in competition. It is easier to apply this when the ball is coming inside your body rather than outside.

The thing that challenges me the most is the timing of the crosscourt balls coming from my opponent and getting away from me.Those balls are difficult cause in order to hit inside you have to let the ball pass in front of you. In order to get on your side and swing to the ball when it is in the correct point of contact.Which is in your side out of the court in this situation.
The problem is I am afraid of being late or that the ball will pass me.That causes me to turn earlier and miss the inside out path. Also my racket is closer to the body and goes more outside to in, the racket head is too closed because it is in the and of the swing when the contact occurs and of course no power. This also applies to high, loopy and slow sitters.

Even when I have the proper space between me and the ball I feel that I have to wait for the ball to come to the correct spot and so then I can swing out to it.If I start earlier then the same problems that I mentioned before will occur. So when I take proper placement and "wait" for the ball in any situation most of the times the stroke is clean and heavy with more topspin and better placement.
Sometimes when the ball is fast and wide enough I am late because you have to accelerate fast and just before the ball passes you in order to catch the ball in your side and in front . Do you have any tip on how to time those balls better? Does the use of the hips and shoulders rotation affects the swing path? Should we decelerate hips and shoulders before contact or keep driving them through? I am sorry for the huge post and so many questions. Hope you can answer some of them.

Yes the crosscourt away from body can be problematic. If you have time (slower incoming ball) you can run, align your body with the ball. Then use your normal around the ball footwork and find the "diagonal" distance to the ball. If the ball comes fast you don't need as much footwork because you don't have the time/need to engage the hips. So it's more semi-blocked shot with good balance, closed body with the arm working almost in isolation (less kinetic chain).
But yeah I agree it's more difficult with an inside out swing.

 

[pushing_wins]

what happened to BB?

 

[hawk eye]

He went inside amd then out TT.

 

[RyanRF]

I don't know if I can agree with much of this.

Tennis is just so much more dynamic. Sometimes you are open-stance, sometimes you are closed stance. Sometimes you are going down the line, some times cc. Sometimes you are on the full stretch, and sometimes you are jammed.

All of these variables can make it impossible to apply a strict rule like 'swing inside-to-out.'

I'm not saying this is wrong.. just that sometimes you'll do it, and other times you won't... and it's all okay.

Also focusing on the point of impact is not as big a deal as people say. Sure Roger does this in a dramatic fashion, but most other players don't. They're looking somewhere ahead of impact and usually have their head tracking the ball as it leaves the racquet. While we can all agree that Roger has a great forehand, plenty of other players do too, and I don't think staring at impact is what makes him so special.

 

[DOL]

this is what Federer do for all his ground FH & BH. I would add into this technique is releasing your wrist like you throw your racket to the target, just like golf so you can fine tune your stroke.

Totally agree ,this is a great concept to incorporate and helps to force you to release the wrist and roll over as in a golf swing

 

[Dianaloveshercat]

Are there any good clips online of showing this? I think I do inside-outside forehands, but not completely sure.

Sometimes in a crunch, my elbow will stick close to my body and sort of act like a hinge as I hit through the ball and it ends up with my elbow in front of me like when you go to scratch your left back with your right hand. But I think all my power gets derives from my body mass moving through the ball. My upper body almost turning 180 while my legs are planted.

Don’t forget the inside out backhand for more topspin.