Clinics, pushers, tennis worlds, pushers, counter-punchers....

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Tennis experiences, share yours.

I was thinking about the past few years encountering more pushers/counterpunchers in singles tournaments at 4.0 and even "4.5" than I've ever seen and wondering if it's regional or a new phenomenon, but maybe it's specifically singles tournaments where they most often play or singles leagues?

General characteristics are not a lot of topspin, a serve that is very relaxing, non-threatening and not too much different than getting a feed in a clinic or drill. Good stamina and endurance, not a ton of unforced errors. The 4.5s were doubles only players that were venturing into singles, although they had losing records at 4.5 doubles never really playing line 1.

When I go to a clinic anywhere, I've been to many different places for clinics, it's usually 4 people on a court to accommodate everyone. A large majority of drills are one up, one back, or approach volley overhead, or even 105 where each side gets 5 points for a baseline winner, 10 for a net, 20 for a lob or overhead, or some variation. So, more often than not in a drill someone is at the net or headed there by rule. Now, if a pusher, the ones I've seen participated, their usual shots would be easily punished, they would be almost a liability in a way to their "team" if there was one in a drill. I haven't seen them really, unless they were 3.5, but the pushers aren't 3.5, they are too good for that, however in a drill the effectiveness of pushing would be minimal.

Same thing for high level team USTA doubles, an exclusive game of soft serve and slice without much pace would be really difficult to create success. I've seen pusher singles players at line 2 in 4.0 , but the more successful teams will have 2 really good topspin hitting singles guys at line 1 and 2 in 4.0. I haven't seen a "pusher" play singles for a 4.5 team unless it was a team of 4.0s and 4.5s mixed together.

These team USTA guys are usually better than tournament singles players, in general, avoiding the danger of winning tournaments and getting bumped, the strange world of USTA tennis.

What have you seen? Any pushers out there who hate clinics? Anyone who run clinics seen the same thing? What about team usta versus tournaments?

Is a pusher the rare player that finds singles easier than doubles?

 

[Fintft]

Now, if a pusher, the ones I've seen participated, their usual shots would be easily punished, they would be almost a liability in a way to their "team" if there was one in a drill. I haven't seen them really, unless they were 3.5, but the pushers aren't 3.5, they are too good for that, however in a drill the effectiveness of pushing would be minimal.

Is a pusher the rare player that finds singles easier than doubles?

To lowly me: yes to both paragraphs.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I've only been to 2 types of clinics in recent years:

- A workout where almost everyone was >= 5.0, young, and ex-college. I, 4.5, not young, and not ex-college, struggled just to stay on the court. No pushers here [although some of them probably considered me one, only I didn't have the consistency].

- A clinic split up into 3-4 courts. The top court was strong 4.0 and up. Again, no pushers. And I don't recall seeing any on court 2 either.

Pushers do horribly in 105 because the emphasis is heavily on winners and almost nothing on consistency. One great offensive point can wipe out many UEs. In that sense, it's completely unrealistic because match play is not like that. But it's a lot of fun.

I don't think it's rare for someone to find singles easier than doubles, although it depends on your definition of "easy".

- Singles is physically more demanding

- Singles is probably more mentally demanding also because there is no one to carry you. However, some are the opposite: in doubles, I have to worry about letting my partner down but in singles, I'm free to play the way I want

- Singles involves no teamwork, one of the toughest things to learn for someone trying to transition to doubles

I think a pusher style is better suited to singles. Hitting slow, no pace, middle of the road shots in singles is hard to punish consistently at the lower levels. But those same balls can easily be volleyed for winners in doubles. The pusher could do well lobbing and moonballing because OHs still aren't consistent enough. But very few enjoy this so that player would not get a lot of social invites. I've even heard the losing team complain "that's not real tennis", as if playing with a tennis racquet, a tennis ball, on a tennis court, by the rules of tennis is somehow not tennis. The not so subtle message is "I can't hit OHs very well and your lobbing exposes my weaknesses so I'm not enjoying myself."

 

[nyta2]

Tennis experiences, share yours.

I was thinking about the past few years encountering more pushers/counterpunchers in singles tournaments at 4.0 and even "4.5" than I've ever seen and wondering if it's regional or a new phenomenon, but maybe it's specifically singles tournaments where they most often play or singles leagues?

General characteristics are not a lot of topspin, a serve that is very relaxing, non-threatening and not too much different than getting a feed in a clinic or drill. Good stamina and endurance, not a ton of unforced errors. The 4.5s were doubles only players that were venturing into singles, although they had losing records at 4.5 doubles never really playing line 1.

When I go to a clinic anywhere, I've been to many different places for clinics, it's usually 4 people on a court to accommodate everyone. A large majority of drills are one up, one back, or approach volley overhead, or even 105 where each side gets 5 points for a baseline winner, 10 for a net, 20 for a lob or overhead, or some variation. So, more often than not in a drill someone is at the net or headed there by rule. Now, if a pusher, the ones I've seen participated, their usual shots would be easily punished, they would be almost a liability in a way to their "team" if there was one in a drill. I haven't seen them really, unless they were 3.5, but the pushers aren't 3.5, they are too good for that, however in a drill the effectiveness of pushing would be minimal.

Same thing for high level team USTA doubles, an exclusive game of soft serve and slice without much pace would be really difficult to create success. I've seen pusher singles players at line 2 in 4.0 , but the more successful teams will have 2 really good topspin hitting singles guys at line 1 and 2 in 4.0. I haven't seen a "pusher" play singles for a 4.5 team unless it was a team of 4.0s and 4.5s mixed together.

These team USTA guys are usually better than tournament singles players, in general, avoiding the danger of winning tournaments and getting bumped, the strange world of USTA tennis.

What have you seen? Any pushers out there who hate clinics? Anyone who run clinics seen the same thing? What about team usta versus tournaments?

Is a pusher the rare player that finds singles easier than doubles?

etymology of "pusher"
it's actually a compliment. it's how out of shape people compliment how fit someone is, because they are so out of breath and can't form a full sentence or phrase ("wow you're a phenomenal counter puncher, i wish i could be as consistent as you are"), and the sound "psh psh psh" is all that can come out as they are bent over from playing the 2nd game of the match. over time, they just shortened the compliment to "pusher", and it's stuck ever since.

 

[Fintft]

I think a pusher style is better suited to singles. Hitting slow, no pace, middle of the road shots in singles is hard to punish consistently at the lower levels. But those same balls can easily be volleyed for winners in doubles.

Or smacked down (be it as passing shots or ROSes)?

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Or smacked down (be it as passing shots or ROSes)?

Exactly.

 

[Fintft]

etymology of "pusher"
it's actually a compliment. it's how out of shape people compliment how fit someone is, because they are so out of breath and can't form a full sentence or phrase ("wow you're a phenomenal counter puncher, i wish i could be as consistent as you are"), and the sound "psh psh psh" is all that can come out as they are bent over from playing the 2nd game of the match. over time, they just shortened the compliment to "pusher", and it's stuck ever since.

Not really, remember the other video about how "a skilled player can lose to a not so skilled one"?
I can be in shape, yet due to laws of physics my innertia (Formula being F = mass X acceleration) is usually bigger than a skinny fellow, hence I can't change directions so easily?!!
And look at the "accelaration" factor, meaning that more aggressive I move, accelerating towards the ball, if I'm forced to change direction, the more innertia I (and my joints) have to fight.

Have you listened to Rafa arguing this to Roger? And asking for a longer clay season?

 

[Fintft]

Exactly.

That's my favourite and most successful part in doubles, playing against those dreaded pushers lol Gonna do that tonight and warn every male again that I'll be going DTL (while aiming for their feet and bodies, no higher than that!)
And I've been practicing my serves which are low % (my ROSes are better).

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

That's my favourite and most successful part in doubles, playing against those dreaded pushers lol Gonna do that tonight and warn every male again that I'll be going DTL (while aiming for their feet and bodies, no higher than that!)
And I've been practicing my serves which are low % (my ROSes are better).

I rarely play against pushers at 4.5; even at 4.0, almost every opponent preferred to drive the ball [even if they would have done better by pushing].

Guys in particular don't consider the value of the lob or push; they always have to play offense. I was playing TBs against a 4.0 buddy and I was closing and getting easy volleys into the open court. After, I pointed out that he had lobbed only a few times. Given how lopsided the score was [his knee was bothering him], he should have lobbed more.

[Then again, he's been taking lessons from Karue and has been working diligently at implementing those things so abandoning that for lobs was probably not the right long-term choice.]

 

[Fintft]

I rarely play against pushers at 4.5; even at 4.0, almost every opponent preferred to drive the ball [even if they would have done better by pushing].

Guys in particular don't consider the value of the lob or push; they always have to play offense. I was playing TBs against a 4.0 buddy and I was closing and getting easy volleys into the open court. After, I pointed out that he had lobbed only a few times. Given how lopsided the score was [his knee was bothering him], he should have lobbed more.

[Then again, he's been taking lessons from Karue and has been working diligently at implementing those things so abandoning that for lobs was probably not the right long-term choice.]

Oh I lob and push when I realize that the situation demands it (and against women), but those are not my bread and butter shots.

 

[happyandbob]

I was thinking about the past few years encountering more pushers/counterpunchers in singles tournaments at 4.0 and even "4.5" than I've ever seen and wondering if it's regional or a new phenomenon, but maybe it's specifically singles tournaments where they most often play or singles leagues?

It's the @GSG effect!

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

It's the @GSG effect!

Decent theory, but most of what I see is older than GSG, so I think they just settled into their style years before they saw his matches.

 

[tomato123]

Decent theory, but most of what I see is older than GSG, so I think they just settled into their style years before they saw his matches.

The majority of opponents at 4.0 level for me is easily pushers and retrievers as well.

So I have zero real empirical evidence to support this hypothesis, just my personal experience from the backgrounds of people I play with in leagues, ladders, and friendly hits.

Let's start with the assumption that many people who played competitive tennis from a young age stop playing around college - there definitely seems to be an abundance of people who say they stopped playing the game for 10-20 years and are picking it back up again. Myself included.

So who is playing tennis at the adult rec level, then?

Probably at the 4.5+ level are mostly the people who continued to play competitively throughout their college and young adult years.

Then at the 3.0-4.0 level, these are the ex-team sports players (soccer, baseball, etc) who have decided to pick up tennis as their "second" sport because competitive opportunities are so few with the sports they grew up playing. I would add distance runners to this group as well. Probably anything that's not basketball. Their form and mechanics are what you would probably expect from beginners, but they pick up the game rather quickly, and they are even quicker to learn that they can win games just by outlasting their opponents, especially if they already developed great fitness from their "primary" sport.

Fast forward to the last 5-8 years, these former tennis competitors from high school decide to pick up the game again and find themselves getting run off the court by these pushers because they lack the fitness to keep up, and their stroke mechanics are not good enough to take control of points against them. Those who commit themselves to join the "dark side" and become super fit to accompany their decent strokes, or take enough lessons to gain back/improve their mechanics - congratulations you may pass go, collect $200, win the prize of 4.5 rating (maybe). Or just accept that this is how the game is now and enjoy it for what it is!