Confused about FYB video/wrist on forehand

[HunterST]

http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/vid...nd/advanced-forehand-technique/wrist-contact/

In this video, Will explains that the wrist should be kept in a fixed position throughout the swing, and that guys like Federer and Nadal have strokes that appear wristy because they pronate. He discourages us from pronating on the forehand

I feel like I may either use my wrist slightly or pronate on my forehand to get more topspin. I kind of push it down so that my knuckles are closer to the floor, then turn my forearm over after contact.

I don't understand the difference between an ordinary WW forehand and one that uses pronation. Any videos to help me understand?

 

[tricky]

Your wrist may be relaxed through the takeback and then naturally layback as you initiate the forward swing. However, you shouldn't actively or consciously release or snap the wrist forward in the forward swing.

I feel like I may either use my wrist slightly or pronate on my forehand to get more topspin. I kind of push it down so that my knuckles are closer to the floor, then turn my forearm over after contact.

Sounds like you're rolling over the ball. That's a big no-no.

I don't understand the difference between an ordinary WW forehand and one that uses pronation.

There's basically 2 kinds of legitimate WW FHs. Most people generate a wiping action where the elbow traces an arc through the contact zone. Usually this leads to a upward swing plane.

Some players like Nadal and Federer make a wiping action where the hand pivots around the elbow. It resembles the movement of a windshield wiper. The swing plane is pretty flat through contact, but there's still a lot of spin.

 

[HunterST]

Your wrist may be relaxed through the takeback and then naturally layback as you initiate the forward swing. However, you shouldn't actively or consciously release or snap the wrist forward in the forward swing.



Sounds like you're rolling over the ball. That's a big no-no.



There's basically 2 kinds of legitimate WW FHs. Most people generate a wiping action where the elbow traces an arc through the contact zone. Usually this leads to a upward swing plane.

Some players like Nadal and Federer make a wiping action where the hand pivots around the elbow. It resembles the movement of a windshield wiper. The swing plane is pretty flat through contact, but there's still a lot of spin.

Thanks a lot for the response.

I don't think I'm rolling over the ball. It's more like my hand/forearm acting like a windshield wiper. I have spent a ton of time watching slow motion federer videos so I'm afraid I have adopted his WW motion, but again, I'm not sure. Obviously that would be great if I was Federer, but Will (and I trust, others do as well) seem to think it wouldn't be the best idea for recreational players.

I really don't have much trouble hitting this way, but it's possible if I kept my wrist locked I could do even better.

 

[user92626]

IMO, keeping your wrist relatively locked as Will of FYB advocates is a great way of keeping consistency, simplicity and comfort. Getting the wrist involved in the kenetic chain gives you more power but it's quite advanced and you have to feel liberated with your stroke to begin with.

At this point I would go with Will's instruction and focus on timing and footwork. This is more than enough to be an advanced hitter.

 

[HunterST]

IMO, keeping your wrist relatively locked as Will of FYB advocates is a great way of keeping consistency, simplicity and comfort. Getting the wrist involved in the kenetic chain gives you more power but it's quite advanced and you have to feel liberated with your stroke to begin with.

At this point I would go with Will's instruction and focus on timing and footwork. This is more than enough to be an advanced hitter.

Yeah I'll definitely try to follow his advice. I'm just not sure if I'm currently even breaking it.

To me, it seems like all WW forehands would have pronation. Otherwise, the racquet couldn't possibly have the WW follow through.

 

[tricky]

I'm just not sure if I'm currently even breaking it.

Really sounds like you have a pretty good handle on it. Wouldn't sweat it.

but it's possible if I kept my wrist locked I could do even better.

Worth reiterating -- Will is strictly speaking about the forward swing. Having the wrist in a relaxed, neutral position during the takeback is ideal. If you have good WW action, it's likely that your wrist lays back naturally and optimally as you initiate the forward swing. They go together.

I have spent a ton of time watching slow motion federer videos so I'm afraid I have adopted his WW motion, but again, I'm not sure.

Some minor tells, if you have a Federer/Nadal-style WW motion.

1) When you finish, does your upper arm wrap around the body, or does it stay away from the body?
2) When you finish, does your hand often end up above your elbow?
3) Is your takeback relatively compact, even if you try to take a big, big cut?
4) Can you make contact with balls at knee high AND above the shoulder?

 

[Ross K]

tricky,

came accros these 2 tips recently re fh on TT this week. Just wondered what you think of them?

1. When wiping the ball it helps if you think of looking at your wrist as if you were wearing a watch and checking for the time...

2. Just after contact you want to try and smell your right arm-pit!... this apparently assists with getting the right swing motion?

LOL!... so what do you make of those tricky?

R.

 

[ManuGinobili]

IMO, keeping your wrist relatively locked as Will of FYB advocates is a great way of keeping consistency, simplicity and comfort. Getting the wrist involved in the kenetic chain gives you more power but it's quite advanced and you have to feel liberated with your stroke to begin with.

At this point I would go with Will's instruction and focus on timing and footwork. This is more than enough to be an advanced hitter.

It is true that most coaches advice beginners and intermediates to keep it simple. But ever since I read Revolutionary Tennis I'm not sure if that should be the way anymore..

The scientific stuff
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step8.html#topspinRolloverPronation
How to pronate (scroll down)
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step8part2.html

The purpose of pronation:
"During contact, most of the time the force of the ball tweaks the racket face adversely, either causing the racket face to close or open. In the exception, if you hit the ball pluperfectly in the center of the racket with just the right upward angle of lift, the ball doesn't tweak the racket face. Now your job is to keep your racket face vertically against the ball as you brush up low to high. How can you do this when the ball's tweaking the racket face? You can either hit the ball pluperfectly, or you can plan to counter the ball tweaking against the racket face. You can plan to apply a counter force."

Can beginners learn pronation?
"First, your wrist has a natural spring to it. To illustrate, with your forehand elbow by your side, extend your forearm straight away from you and keep your hand on an edge, straight up and down. Now lay your hand, or wrist, back. Feel the tension in there. Keep the forearm still and relax that tension. Hopefully your hand springs back to its original position. If not, repeat the action but angle your hand downward somewhat before you lay it back.

The wrist-as-spring idea is evident in the preparatory hand action you see in all the pros' pictures (above) during the backswing, the hand lays back, or the wrist cocks back. The hand, too, flexes around the wrist, as the forearm around the elbow, the biceps around the shoulder. Denying the natural use of your hand in this manner is like trying to walk with your shoelaces tied to each other.

Second, the arm naturally turns inward. When you walk the palm either faces your leg or behind you. If you extend your arm away from you palm side up, you'll lower the arm and the palm rotates to face your body. The arm naturally pronates.

Adding wrist flexibility and pronation with an arm that is flexible throughout the swing creates the proverbial cannon.

Is this cannon hard to set up and fire? Heck no, just let nature takes its course. Lay the wrist back to start, keep it strong and vow not to flop it, and you'll naturally access it during the motion. Again, less is more. Oh you'll hit the ball out in the beginning, that's expected, like what happened when you first hit the gas pedal on a car. But you can handle it. And pronation? Just simply roll the racket or the hand into the ball on the forward upward swing, that's all. Counter the ball, don't ever try to keep the wrist or arm fixed."

The fixed wrist:
"Critics argue pronation adds a layer of work, and that a fixed wrist is just one less thing to do. Not true, keeping the wrist in a fixed position is something to do as well, it's work. And I think it's less work to swing naturally, that is to pronate, than to swing using a stilted form, a fixed wrist."

 

[ManuGinobili]

Your wrist may be relaxed through the takeback and then naturally layback as you initiate the forward swing. However, you shouldn't actively or consciously release or snap the wrist forward in the forward swing.

Tricky do you teach? I would like to send my children to your club when I have them Tried the sock drill and worked wonderfully too
The conscious snap is exactly what coaches try to avoid with the fixed wrist advice. But in order to have a big forehand you HAVE to learn pronation.

One of my friends was learning the WW the other day, his source was FYB and some other internet sources. At first he was "wiping" it with a locked wrist, and the ball was just dumping into the net or fall short. I told him that even when pros do the WW, they also "reach out to the target" a bit - I purposely did not tell him about pronation because it might create some confusion - and I realized pronation was really natural once he was encouraged to not forcing the wrist to lock, and kinda reached his racket out. The result was AMAZING: consistently deep, penetrating balls. There were ones that went straight for the fence sure, because he was "reaching out" to the sky lol, but most of the balls were very nice and rhythmic.

 

[tricky]

1. When wiping the ball it helps if you think of looking at your wrist as if you were wearing a watch and checking for the time...

2. Just after contact you want to try and smell your right arm-pit!... this apparently assists with getting the right swing motion?

Ehhh . . . not a big fan of those visualization. Yes, you'll get a big WW finish, but you may not be hitting through the ball.

I told him that even when pros do the WW, they also "reach out to the target" a bit - I purposely did not tell him about pronation because it might create some confusion - and I realized pronation was really natural once he was encouraged to not forcing the wrist to lock, and kinda reached his racket out.

I usually don't mention the wrist or pronation. Also, I don't talk about the WW finish all that much. Basically, it's swing through ball and finish below shoulder. Most people intuitively understand that.

Usually the emphasis is on the line of your swing through the ball, and striking through the ball. That's pretty conventional.

I put way, way more emphasis on the feet than probably 80% of the people here.

However, I can go into excruciating mechanical details regarding the pronation and wrist actMoreion. Such as . . .

You can either hit the ball pluperfectly, or you can plan to counter the ball tweaking against the racket face. You can plan to apply a counter force."

Yeah, this is a big no-no to me. You don't want to micromanage the angle of your racquet face at contact.

The hand, too, flexes around the wrist

This is not a natural part of a swing, but it's a natural part of throwing a ball. For the hand to naturally flex from the wrist, there has to be another passive segment in the kinetic chain. Now, yes, the wrist does release a little bit through the contact point. But this is part wrist bone alignment, and part passive or motion dependent effect.

The arm naturally pronates.

Yeah, this gets into sticky territory. The forearm pronates, but the racquet does not roll over the ball. This is due to the line of your swing. As long as your arm continues to swing in a line toward the ball, any pronation of the forearm enhances the wiping arc of the racquet. Once the arm starts moving out of that line then you'll see more of a "doorknob" reaction. You might see this happen if you're tracking a ball with weird sidespin or side bounce.