Critique My Righty Serve

[ext2hander]

videos: Righty's Serve video2

[SEE NEWEST 3-15-2015 POST IN THREAD]

Please critique my serve, which I developed the last couple years. Suggestions to improve and refine? Not sure what's next, other than keeping toss in front and not too high. I'm trying to keep the motion slow and smooth, until the racquet drop back behind head.

Its getting fairly consistent, to the point where I can swing the racquet harder for the second serve harder with more back flex to assist the pronate and spin. These are all moderate first serves, using a very loose grip and relaxed motion, and all 10 happened to go in deep to the deuce court. I'm a mid 60s kind of guy, i.e. not so loose as most young kids on this forum, and the same guy who posted on the "Extended Two-Hand Backhand", which is my #1 shot, and serve being #2.

Racquet? its a Prince NXG MidPlus, a heavy junior/pro type racquet with good flex and very high damping -- vs all my peers to who go super-light and stiff! At first, the NXG seemed too heavy for groundies and serves, but now I've adapted and will not go back to lighter racquets with more shock.

Auughhh, another Asian, and old one at that! Ho ho ho!

[OK, wise guy, show me another retiree pushing 69 who last played 3.0 years ago, that can rip the two-handed backhand like I do now! most are stiff with abbreviated strokes, using super light & stiff racquets ill-suited for longer, fast strokes! let alone with flexible and heavy player's racquet like the Prince NXG, that's if you know racquets. Show me!]

BTW, I have no problem with all the very critical comments on my 2011 serve, which really did need much rework for greater enjoyment!

 

[LeeD]

Honestly, it's worst than my rightie serve, and I play left handed.
Grip wrong.
Need to stand more sideways.
You have no trophy position except you do point the racket at the sky.
No archer's bow.
No forward movement.
Due to age, I won't mention lack of leg push.
You don't stop and load, then toss. Instead, you're going thru the motions.

 

[LeeD]

Am I being too severe?
Sure, you're mid 60's, have played only a couple of years, haven't had real training or coaching.
OTOH, if anyone told you that you have an acceptable serve, you'd be lied to and you KNOW THE TRUTH.
I'm 62, don't employ any legs except to move forward, and can bounce all first serves waist high against the backboard 21' behind the baseline on concrete courts.

 

[ext2hander]

Honestly, it's worst than my rightie serve, and I play left handed.
Grip wrong.
Need to stand more sideways.
You have no trophy position except you do point the racket at the sky.
No archer's bow.
No forward movement.
Due to age, I won't mention lack of leg push.
You don't stop and load, then toss. Instead, you're going thru the motions.

Thanks, actually I never asked anyone to critique my serve before. I've been playing quite a while, but can finally win points off my serve, 1st or 2nd. I do stand quite a bit sideways at the start, so I don't have to rotate CCW so far, before CW rotation into the ball. I think the best part is dropping the racquet straight down (where I think you refer to as racquet butt pointing to the sky?) and in close behind my back, and then thrust upwards. My grip is still halfway to the continental, which I'm still working on. Also, trying to increase pronate for more speed.

Please explain "archers bow" and "you don't stop and load, then toss". For more forward movement, maybe tossing further into the court? -- or get longer flexible legs! BTW, I don't need to hit the backwall, but just deep into the box.

You wanna see my lefty serve? its worse yet! I'd like to see your righty serve, being that you are a lefty, must be really coordinated!

 

[dozu]

just enjoy the game.

serve is fine.

 

[ext2hander]

just enjoy the game.

serve is fine.

That's what I do, play and enjoy the game. But its always a challenge to keep tweaking my strokes and serve to improve control and power. That's part of the fun. Players don't critique my serve when an ace or unreturnable serve is dished out, other than saying "good serve!"

 

[Jonny S&V]

Your serve is fine if you are fine with it, but if you wanna get the most out of your serve that's possible, there are quite a few changes that need to be made... :neutral:

 

[ext2hander]

Once I get grooved, everything goes in with pace and depth, and 2nd serves upset those looking for easy balls. But some days, it takes awhile to get going, perhaps tossing slightly higher or not far into the court. I need to get fully comfortable with the Continental grip, to pronate more for pace and spin -- holding the grip loosely, of course. However, hitting the 2nd with high bounce is still not there. I find the serve is all about being loose. I'd never been a great player before, 3.0-3.5, so being able to improve lately has been a treat. Never hurts to get better.

 

[HunterST]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXJGsRtm08&feature=channel_video_title

Check out this video from a very respected coach. He talks about how to improve the serve when using a forehand grip. I think it would help you see a lot of improvement without having to spend a ton of time and effort completely reworking the serve.

 

[ext2hander]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXJGsRtm08&feature=channel_video_title

Check out this video from a very respected coach. He talks about how to improve the serve when using a forehand grip. I think it would help you see a lot of improvement without having to spend a ton of time and effort completely reworking the serve.

Hunter, Thanks! That video you referred to was RIGHT ON THE MONEY! My best serves for power and topspin is when I have a very low toss. That's because my grip is halfway between Eastern Forehand and Continental. Some days I start out tossing a tad too high, and my serves hit the tape or go long -- until the correction. If I had a full Continental grip, then maybe I could hit the higher toss with spin and pace. Very interesting! I will watch the video a few more times, for what leads and what doesn't.

The video points out one flaw in my pronate action. He says to rotate and thrust from the upper arm/elbow, and not from the wrist. I'm using too much wrist. Wow, this video is right on the money.

Maybe this last tip will also help my Left hand serve! It will be easier to convert to Continental for LH, since its a newer stroke I'm working on (for the fun of it, or in event I get tennis RH elbow again).

 

[fuzz nation]

Once I get grooved, everything goes in with pace and depth, and 2nd serves upset those looking for easy balls. But some days, it takes awhile to get going, perhaps tossing slightly higher or not far into the court. I need to get fully comfortable with the Continental grip, to pronate more for pace and spin -- holding the grip loosely, of course. However, hitting the 2nd with high bounce is still not there. I find the serve is all about being loose. I'd never been a great player before, 3.0-3.5, so being able to improve lately has been a treat. Never hurts to get better.

I encourage you NOT to consciously worry about pronation with your serve. It should happen naturally as a result of the basic components in your serve happening with good timing and synchronization.

Something you may want to experiment with is the idea of getting more "loaded up" and ready to fire before putting your toss up in the air. That might give you a better set up with your legs ready to drive upward and also get your racquet set back behind your head in a ready position. I'm sort of hinting toward a rough "trophy position", but don't worry about the aesthetics. This experiment is more about getting ready to take a smooth release through contact instead of sort of burst of motion up to the ball.

A continental grip ought to help you in the long run (looks like you're way over in the realm of a forehand grip in the video). Watching your racquet motion, I can see that you drop it from your waist and then as soon as it gets up around shoulder height, you're swinging at the ball. That can make it easy to be just a fraction of a second late and that's when the fluid timing of a service motion can evaporate.

You can try getting that racquet up to its set position sooner (the toss seems to happen later in the progression), and see how it feels to be more ready for that release to contact before the ball goes up in the air. You might get more smoothness and energy to churn out an extra measure of pace and spin.

 

[fuzz nation]

Oh, I've got a bit of a love affair going with that midplus NXG myself. While I also enjoy playing with the Volkl C10, it often occurs to me that some performance aspects of this Prince frame are at least as good as that Volkl (for me).

You've got a honey of a frame on your hands there - if you can track down one or two 2nd hand spares before they become especially scarce, you ought to be able to stay gear happy for a while.

 

[SuperDuy]

Thanks, actually I never asked anyone to critique my serve before. I've been playing quite a while, but can finally win points off my serve, 1st or 2nd. I do stand quite a bit sideways at the start, so I don't have to rotate CCW so far, before CW rotation into the ball. I think the best part is dropping the racquet straight down (where I think you refer to as racquet butt pointing to the sky?) and in close behind my back, and then thrust upwards. My grip is still halfway to the continental, which I'm still working on. Also, trying to increase pronate for more speed.

Please explain "archers bow" and "you don't stop and load, then toss". For more forward movement, maybe tossing further into the court? -- or get longer flexible legs! BTW, I don't need to hit the backwall, but just deep into the box.

You wanna see my lefty serve? its worse yet! I'd like to see your righty serve, being that you are a lefty, must be really coordinated!

You live close to him you should just go see for your self lol.

 

[ext2hander]

Oh, I've got a bit of a love affair going with that midplus NXG myself. While I also enjoy playing with the Volkl C10, it often occurs to me that some performance aspects of this Prince frame are at least as good as that Volkl (for me).

You've got a honey of a frame on your hands there - if you can track down one or two 2nd hand spares before they become especially scarce, you ought to be able to stay gear happy for a while.

My prior racquet was the Volkl Catapult 10 mid-size, which worked out well for several years. Before that I used the Head Trisys 300 (i.e. Prestige Tour) for years. In search of more power and damping, I tried my son's Prince NXG MidPlus 4 5/8 -- a bit large for me, but after practicing I got the hang of its swing weight and loved its power and high damping. So I bought my own, and find the NXG MidPlus provides needed power boost, predictable, extremely quiet, with zero shock.

For these racquets, the goal was modest performance with good flex and low shock; whereas, my prior racquets caused tennis elbow! Maybe when I hit 80 or so I will lighten up the racquets!

 

[ext2hander]

You live close to him you should just go see for your self lol.

I'll have to ask the GOAT where he lives, he probably has monster shots grooved from his younger days -- if he can power-spin his serve so hard, in the service court, and still hit well up the back fence before 2nd bounce! Must be a brute.

 

[ProgressoR]

OP you are in your 60's?

Well i have to say its great to see your enjoyment of the game and willingness to post on a forum like this to brave all kinds of comments. I cannot offer any advice as a one year hack, but well done on your willingness to improve.

 

[Bender]

I honestly read "Righty the retired guy" as "Righty the ******** guy"; I'm sorry...
Anyway, nice video; takes a lot of courage and effort to record yourself playing let alone upload for anonymous others to see.

My advice: watch that wrist. When you get to your trophy position, the racquet is flapping around and could be injurious. This could be due to your grip (I haven't watched the video in detail to figure out what grip it is you're using) - try use a continental grip on the serve, or an Eastern one if you find that too difficult at first.

I'd advise against massive changes in one go, so use this thread to compile a list of things you need to work on, and work through the smaller changes first. That way, said changes can be adopted without making a significant negative effect (if any) associated with technique change.

 

[dozu]

OP you are in your 60's?

Well i have to say its great to see your enjoyment of the game and willingness to post on a forum like this to brave all kinds of comments. I cannot offer any advice as a one year hack, but well done on your willingness to improve.

OP, I have to apologize for my earlier 'serve is fine' comment... but I mean it when I said 'enjoy the game'

serve needs a complete rebuild... FYB serve progression should be a good start.

I figure I should come clean, considering your enthusiasm at age 60.

 

[ext2hander]

I encourage you NOT to consciously worry about pronation with your serve. It should happen naturally as a result of the basic components in your serve happening with good timing and synchronization.

Something you may want to experiment with is the idea of getting more "loaded up" and ready to fire before putting your toss up in the air. That might give you a better set up with your legs ready to drive upward and also get your racquet set back behind your head in a ready position. I'm sort of hinting toward a rough "trophy position", but don't worry about the aesthetics. This experiment is more about getting ready to take a smooth release through contact instead of sort of burst of motion up to the ball.

A continental grip ought to help you in the long run (looks like you're way over in the realm of a forehand grip in the video). Watching your racquet motion, I can see that you drop it from your waist and then as soon as it gets up around shoulder height, you're swinging at the ball. That can make it easy to be just a fraction of a second late and that's when the fluid timing of a service motion can evaporate.

You can try getting that racquet up to its set position sooner (the toss seems to happen later in the progression), and see how it feels to be more ready for that release to contact before the ball goes up in the air. You might get more smoothness and energy to churn out an extra measure of pace and spin.

Thanks for comments! I just picked a couple new Prince NXG MidPlus 4 3/8 for a cool deal $60 ea. Last of these sweet racquets around here. I've been wanted to switch from the 4 1/2 grip, for better comfort holding the Continental grip, as well as trying a more Semi-Western for my one-hand forehand. Getting strung now, and the smaller grip will make holding the Continental easier and more natural.

Awhile ago I did try loading up more before releasing toss, but then reverted to current down together, up together. In fact, this afternoon I was practicing serves and tried the delayed toss again. I learned this from my 11 yr son about 10 years ago, when I had trouble with consistent toss. He was a pretty good NorCal player at the time.

He said, "Look, forget the down and up together business! Hold the ball lightly in LH, and without moving it begin your RH arm motion down and up, while rotating the body CCW to load up. When the RH arm upward motion reaches the same height as the LH, bring them both up together. Then of course, after racquet drop back rotate CW back into the ball as you thrust upward." Guess what, it worked! Within a week, my toss was consistent to the same spot. Less superfluous motion.

Smoothness of motion is the key. I should not actually try to pronate by rotating forearm from the elbow, but rather just be sure I'm not wristing the pronate. The unwinding of the body motion should flow upwards, and transfer its rotational momentum into the arm -- naturally.

I will focus on changing the grip, and then letting the body CW rotation to transfer into forearm rotation. Then, maybe try my old toss again for consistency and less movement. If I'm gripping and pronating right, I should be able to toss the ball higher for impact.

Yeah, these forums really expose you to all sorts of critique, some warranted and some less. Its OK, I'll never stop learning, and hopefully will not peak for years to come. No sense looking like all the other ol' guys I play with. I also exposed myself to all kinds of comments via my recent Extended Two-Hand Backhand post. That stroke is so novel and unique, with unusual grip technique, that there will be lots of doubters. That's understood. All I know is that its become my "go to" shot under pressure for hitting the winning shot or pass. Since no one else on the planet has posted anything like it, it was time to share with everyone, like it or not. One has to be ready for change, and view the technique with an open-mind for its merits.

Thanks also to related comments from phnx90 and dozu! Much appreciated.

 

[ext2hander]

Strung up the new Prince NXG MidPlus 4 3/8 at 58 lbs. The smaller grip is easier to hold for the Continental grip (or close to that). Below is a serve sequence using the Conti grip. As instructed by the ServeDoc at Bolleteri Academy, I'm trying to avoid wristing the pronate, but rather let the body rotation flow into the arm rotation from the elbow. This will take more practice to get comfort, to raise my contact point and smooth the motion, with higher bouncing serve 2nd serve. For now, achieving a hard spin deep into the court is easier than with the larger handle. Hopefully the image from zxq.net will display below ...

Thanks again to HunterST for the ServeDoc video!

 

[ext2hander]

Here's the image link to my revised serve. Haven't figured out why sometimes image works and link doesn't or vice versa.
http://chong.zxq.net/misc/sports/img/RHS_NewNXG_ContiGrip_sequemce_5-14-2011.jpg

Can others see the image via this link, or the embedded image in prior post?

 

[ext2hander]

In case the insert image does not work in prior post, try this link:
Revised serve sequence with smaller handle and Conti grip

 

[ext2hander]

Beautiful day in San Jose, except for a few light sprinkles. Here's an update of my serve, with my new Prince NXG MidPlus and smaller 4 3/8 handle. The 4 3/8 handle is more comfortable for the Continental grip, so this is my first attempt with the grip.

Updated Serve with Smaller Size Handle and Conti Grip​

Fuzz Nation. You are right! I drop my racquet behind my back too early. My elbow needs to extend higher and above the shoulder as my shoulder rotates CCW, and racquet dropback, and then CW rotation into the shot. As the shoulders stop rotating, the rotational momentum should transfer into the arm with CCW rotation to help pronate action. I can also try to smooth the motion by delaying the toss, as you say, to give my body more time to windup, so there is less rush to the finish. Makes sense. The smoother the motion, the less effort and better hit serve. Enuf to work on for now.

 

[mightyrick]

The 4 3/8 handle is more comfortable for the Continental grip, so this is my first attempt with the grip.

Is that continental grip? I couldn't tell by looking. If that is a continental, then it looks like you completely supinate your wrist while you set up. Your racquet face is open almost completely to the sky.

 

[Jonny S&V]

Is that continental grip? I couldn't tell by looking. If that is a continental, then it looks like you completely supinate your wrist while you set up. Your racquet face is open almost completely to the sky.

This is more important to fix than getting the racquet back too early IMO. In the trophy-position, make sure the 12 o'clock point of the racquet face is pointing to the sky, not directly behind you.

 

[ext2hander]

Is that continental grip? I couldn't tell by looking. If that is a continental, then it looks like you completely supinate your wrist while you set up. Your racquet face is open almost completely to the sky.

Exactly, I simply rotated the racquet 1/8 turn at the start, so the face opens to the sky. So I should rotate the racquet grip 1/8 turn to Continental, and leave the racquet vertical at the start?

 

[ext2hander]

This is more important to fix than getting the racquet back too early IMO. In the trophy-position, make sure the 12 o'clock point of the racquet face is pointing to the sky, not directly behind you.

I can try, so the racquet is essentially horizontal in trophy position (rather than in dropback position), before the dropback and final hit up and out.

 

[Jonny S&V]

I can try, so the racquet is essentially horizontal in trophy position (rather than in dropback position), before the dropback and final hit up and out.

Have you seen any pro not do this?

 

[ext2hander]

I will study the Pro serves on YouTube, and stop frame to see what's going on. Anyone know of a free downloadable software for playing MPEG4 videos in slow motion? Perhaps, one needs a digital camera with high frame rate, and slow motion built in.

 

[mightyrick]

I will study the Pro serves on YouTube, and stop frame to see what's going on. Anyone know of a free downloadable software for playing MPEG4 videos in slow motion? Perhaps, one needs a digital camera with high frame rate, and slow motion built in.

I use avidemux. I'm on Linux, but they do have a Windows distributable, as well. You can do all sorts of great frame-by-frame stuff with it.

http://avidemux.razorbyte.com.au/

 

[ext2hander]

I can try, so the racquet is essentially horizontal in trophy position (rather than in dropback position), before the dropback and final hit up and out.

I erred again. In checking the FuzzyYellowBalls video, the trophy pose is with both the pointing arm and racquet pointing up to the sky. I will have to rework. Maybe the pose will help get a deeper knee bend.

Thanks guys, for pointing out what was so obvious to you!

 

[ext2hander]

I use avidemux. I'm on Linux, but they do have a Windows distributable, as well. You can do all sorts of great frame-by-frame stuff with it.

http://avidemux.razorbyte.com.au/

Thanks! I already had AVIdemux, for dubbing in the noise-reduced soundtrack. Didn't know the feature was there at Video, Frame Rate, i.e. once you stop the video playback. I didn't realize you had to stop Play, for the single-frame icons (arrow) to work. So cool, and useful to check strokes in detail, as its so hard to stop via pause at the right point.

 

[mightyrick]

Thanks! I already had AVIdemux, for dubbing in the noise-reduced soundtrack. Didn't know the feature was there at Video, Frame Rate, i.e. once you stop the video playback. I didn't realize you had to stop Play, for the single-frame icons (arrow) to work. So cool, and useful to check strokes in detail, as its so hard to stop via pause at the right point.

For reference, here's the two pics that cause concern. First, the wrist starting out in the supinated position. There are a couple of pros who have done this, but they are professionals... ;-)

Then, the supination at setup carrying into your trophy and backscratch.

The racquet should definitely be on edge. If you start with the racquet on edge, it will be easier to keep it on edge as you swing up from the backscratch.

 

[ext2hander]

For reference, here's the two pics that cause concern. First, the wrist starting out in the supinated position. There are a couple of pros who have done this, but they are professionals... ;-)

Then, the supination at setup carrying into your trophy and backscratch.

The racquet should definitely be on edge. If you start with the racquet on edge, it will be easier to keep it on edge as you swing up from the backscratch.

Ahhh. OK, I will start with Conti grip on edge, so it stays on edge for pronate just prior to impact. Need to rework the motion to comfort.

I'd noticed my racquet was not quite on edge just prior to pronate. Excellent point, and thanks for detail diagnosis! This insights can probably help anyone still learning the pronate with Conti grip.

 

[ext2hander]

Thanks to everyone with advice on my serve. Yes, the motion was pretty far off. I have started to change, beginning with the "trophy position" with both tossing arm and racquet pointed upward (vs racquet horiz or down), and knees bent. I added a lean-back at this point, to look upward and chest slightly open to the sky, as the racquet is cocked and released to impact.

As posters advised, I changed to the Continental grip. My new racquet's smaller 4 3/8 grip really helps. I now keep the racquet face nearly vertical at the start, with the racquet held in a more natural position (i.e. racquet axis an angle to arm, like all the good players). With the racquet held in more-or-less in this natural position through the backswing and loop, the angle between racquet axis and arm is straighted as I swing upward to pronate and impact -- I suspect this gives greater uplift on the ball, and consequent consistent spin. The racquet head does not drop as close to the ground as before, with the new grip and racquet/arm initial angle, since the real objective is to get set into the ideal trophy position.

So actually, I'm making quite a few changes, all doable with more practice.

 

[ext2hander]

This weekend, I finally had a chance to play matches with my service revisions. Thanks to all for the critique, on my prior serve. I first practiced a few times by myself, to try the changes. Rather than making just 1-2 changes, I altered 5 aspects of my serve:
- conti grip with smaller handle, and racquet face near vertical at start
- trophy position with tossing hand & racquet pointed upwards
- starting position with 30 deg bend between handle and forearm.
- keeping arm/racquet bent slightly at start of pronation
- look up with chest slightly open to sky towards ball toss

Both days, my serve was strong right out-of-the-box. No worry. Second serve also worked extremely well, hitting just as hard, but trying to bend back a bit more with chest open to sky, which gives a little more kick, as I rotate forward and upward.

I still need to improve serve clearance over the net, for greater margin and consistency. But right now, the second serve keeps 'em back, and from attacking. A higher-bouncing, heavy topspin second serve would be great to possess. Perhaps, one of these days, I'll be able to bounce the serve like the great LeeD ! Right now, my deepest serves bounce again well before the fence.

 

[ext2hander]

My revised serve is coming along fine, thanks to critique from this forum.

See photo sequence for my current serve.

Videos: [normal speed] [slow motion]

Still working on increasing knee bend and pronation, while staying in the trophy position a bit longer before the final loop to impact. Perhaps, I can add a small CW and CCW rotation to delay the racquet dropback, while adding smooth power from the increased rotation. Maybe keep my arms and legs in a tighter "cylinder" to generate faster rotation?

For second serves, I try to ensure the racquet is cocked until the final upswing and pronation, thereby imparting confident power and spin. Its works reliably. But I still cannot hit the back fence on a single bounce like LeeD, but that's ok.

Measured speed is ~85 mph, based on 15 frames at 30-fps and 63 feet distance to service line. Adequate for my level. Thanks again to ALL!

 

[Jonny S&V]

My revised serve is coming along fine, thanks to critique from this forum.

See photo sequence for my current serve.

Videos: [normal speed] [slow motion]

Still working on increasing knee bend and pronation, while staying in the trophy position a bit longer before the final loop to impact. Perhaps, I can add a small CW and CCW rotation to delay the racquet dropback, while adding smooth power from the increased rotation. Maybe keep my arms and legs in a tighter "cylinder" to generate faster rotation?

For second serves, I try to ensure the racquet is cocked until the final upswing and pronation, thereby imparting confident power and spin. Its works reliably. But I still cannot hit the back fence on a single bounce like LeeD, but that's ok.

Measured speed is ~85 mph, based on 15 frames at 30-fps and 63 feet distance to service line. Adequate for my level. Thanks again to ALL!

Forget about anything about trunk rotation, leg drive, etc... Learn to pronate correctly. Seriously. You still have a waiter's trophy pose, and you're not extending towards the ball... You have a very cramped, inefficient serve.

Sorry I sound so negative, but just saying it like it is...

 

[Migelowsky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXJGsRtm08&feature=channel_video_title

Check out this video from a very respected coach. He talks about how to improve the serve when using a forehand grip. I think it would help you see a lot of improvement without having to spend a ton of time and effort completely reworking the serve.

Poor racquet :?

 

[ext2hander]

Forget about anything about trunk rotation, leg drive, etc... Learn to pronate correctly. Seriously. You still have a waiter's trophy pose, and you're not extending towards the ball... You have a very cramped, inefficient serve.

Sorry I sound so negative, but just saying it like it is...

Jonny,
No, your comments are appreciated, however critical. I'd gotten strong comments from my earlier posts, but as I continued to alter my serve, I realized they were right on target.

Doing a proper pronation is still a challenge, as the slow mo shows some pronation, but not full pronation. A proper pronation would also generate more spin and power, and more margin for keeping the serve within the service line (right now, there is not much margin on 1st serve). I suspect you mean to get the racquet plane slicing forward and then at last second pronating outwards (with forearm in cocked position).

I had not heard of waiter's trophy post (that's a good one!). I presume you mean pointing the racquet more vertically, with a big more hang time as the tossed ball continues rising (like the FuzzyBall pro demonstrates on web, i.e. deep knee bend with both tossing arm and racquet pointing strongly upward until ball peaks). I sense that I'm doing this, but video proves I start the final loop too early.

Not sure exactly what is meant by not extending towards the ball, i.e. greater upward thrust of racquet while pronating, and getting the racquet to "snap" at the peak?

Your right, the initial downward motion is still cramped. The racquet drops, and then rises vertically; whereas, I'd like to racquet to drop and "loop" upwards -- which would be more efficient. Again, I think I'm doing the loop, but video says not!

I'm trying, listening, and videoing to see what I ACTUALLY do (versus what I think I'm doing!). Perhaps, need to work on "visualization" and "imagery" to get my body to do what I'd like it to do.

 

[ext2hander]

Poor racquet :?

I love the NXG, great racquet with balanced flexibility and power. I'd watched the ServeDoc's hammer video several times, and now again. I'll have to think about rolling at the elbow to generate the pronate action. I started using the conti-grip, knuckle on angled flat, for the last 2 months with the new NXG with smaller 4 3/8 grip. I had the wrong grip size the last 45 years, which had resulted in the forehand grip.

Keep in mind I just turned Medicare eligible last Monday, yet I did make big changes and improvements the last two months, and realize there is still a ways to go for smoother, effortless serve -- as I re-train my brain and muscle memory. Maybe I can pick up another 10 mph!

 

[ext2hander]

...

Keep in mind I just turned Medicare eligible last Monday, yet I did make big changes and improvements the last two months, and realize there is still a ways to go for smoother, effortless serve -- as I re-train my brain and muscle memory. Maybe I can pick up another 10 mph!

Perhaps, I should have started a new thread. For anyone who might have seen my serve in 2011, here's my serve today ... going on 69 and reduced to 5'4", 130. My motion is much smoother and relaxed, effortless and generally more correct though still not quite the idealized trophy position, and I don't think about pronation -- just happens naturally with the stroke. No warm-up is needed to hit the first serve to wide corner and strong, all natural now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8p795jex4g

At least, I feel the serve is much more sound, and I'm having so much more enjoyment winning points off serve, and even serve-n-volley on occasion. Good enough for retiree tennis. Its become the strong point of my game, to complement my best shot, the Extended two-hand backhand.

Regardless, its interesting to see where I was 4 years ago, and where I am today -- despite 4 more years on Medicare! BTW, I've never been a tournament player, and played only some league in 90's as low 3.5 and then 3.0. Critique away!

 

[Chas Tennis]

This Pat Dougherty video demos and shows two kinds of serves: he refers to one with the hammer analogy (also known in this forum as the Waiter's Tray technique) and the other as the 'advanced serve' (also know here as a high level serve or an Internal Shoulder Rotation Serve).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXJGsRtm08

It can be a struggle in the above video to always keep in mind what serve Pat is talking about. For a year or two I did not realize that he was referring, back and forth, to two serving techniques .

From looking at videos, I would estimate that of the posters submitting serve videos on TT the largest percentage are using the WT technique. That is your technique.

How to perform the WT technique for the best result is not well described anywhere as far as I have found - except in that Pat Dougherty video. Anyone have instruction for the WT technique? He also has technique advice on increasing the pace. The WT can be very effective when performed as well as you are doing.

I would say that the Waiter's Tray technique differs from the high level serve in that it does not use arm rotation as a contributor for generating racket head speed.

Incorporating advice intended for one serving technique into another serving technique is a very questionable practice.

 

[ext2hander]

This Pat Dougherty video demos and shows two kinds of serves: he refers to one with the hammer analogy (also known in this forum as the Waiter's Tray technique) and the other as the 'advanced serve' (also know here as a high level serve or an Internal Shoulder Serve).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXJGsRtm08

... From looking at videos, I would estimate that of the posters submitting serve videos on TT the largest percentage are using the WT technique. That is your technique.

Dougherty"s Hammer That Serve is a Classic. I love that video, and have watched many times. I use the Continental grip, with knuckle on the first angled bevel. Hence, I'm closer to the advance serve, which allows a high toss and looking away from the intended target. Not sure my racket is fully on edge (slicing action followed by really sharp pronate action), but working on it to enhance spin/slice. I'm getting a pretty decent side jump on serve, varying with 1st and 2nd serves.

As you suggest, not only most TT posters, but most recreational and retiree players use the forehand grip and intermediate service motion. You can tell. When serving into the CA morning sun from the deuce court, and the sun cutting diagonally from far to near court, they will always say they cannot see because of the sun. Their racket motion follows the same diagonal path, as do their eyes. They tell you to serve from that side, so they can serve with sun behind. Ridiculous for right-handers; I can see the point for lefties.

Players with the advanced serve have no problem serving into the sun, as described above. No problem. Why? The advanced motion has the racquet traversing not just up, but also left-to-right. The eyes are focused to the right of their target, and hence away from the sun. "What sun, there is no sun, I like to say!"

Much of the power for the advanced serve is attained by combining two racquet face rotations, i.e. up (topspin) & sideways (slice/sidespin). If you know basic physics, adding the two rotations gives you a greater overall rotation.

 

[LeeD]

In our courts, morning sun kills the lefty server, while 3PM sun sort of get's into the eyes of rightie slice servers.
I'm in Berkeley, and I usually choose to serve into the morning sun, just to confound the other players.
Your grip is too forehand for most instructors, but don't worry, you're 69 and you're doing well to be on court.
At our courts, we have 3 top of the heap 4.0 level players who exceed 70 years of age, and all use pure volley continental grips on their serves. 2 of them were top 10 ranked A players back in the '70's, and one is a world champ 50 year old back '90's.

 

[ext2hander]

There's another really good player on our favorite court, nearly my age, but then he used to be 4.5 and 5.0 in younger days. I've been a low-mid range player in younger days, and only now have developed a consistent serve to win points, and backhand two-hander that I think is awesome, free-flowing, and drives home the point, so to speak. (I'll show and highlight in a separate post, once I get ready for the deluge of critique, from the usual doubters of alternative techniques that deviates from establishment.)

DLEE, you were easy on me this time. Must be getting old and onto Medicare now! But I do wish to rotate the grip a tad more for a more wicked spin, along with having the racquet more on "edge" prior to pronate action. But I doubt I will ever hit the back fence on the single bounce like you used to do!

 

[LeeD]

Today, I hit no flat serves IN.
Last Friday, I cheated and hit midday, at 77 degrees. All flat serves bounced around 30" high on the backwall, some higher, and some mishits lower, but still at least 20" up the backwall. A couple with good wrist action actually topped out right at the 38" line on our backwall, but they did a strange hop off the service court, one I can't duplicate at will, so one I can't claim I own.
So, 30" is my max height, after going IN, and after the 21' distance to the backwall from the baseline.
I don't seem to jump anymore.
Oh, and I can still throw a football, or a tennis ball, from serve position at the baseline to OVER the 11' high backfence to land inside the service line of the adjoining court. I can't reach the net, I'll admit, but I"m 66 with 2 broken collarbones each side, and separates on each shoulder, and after surfing full time for 25 years.
As Shroud, or PapaMango, or President, or Hank (Hescobal), or Miquel Loo, if I can still hit a fast first serve.
Fast for 4.0. Slow for 5.5, of course.

 

[ext2hander]

All flat serves bounced around 30" high on the backwall, some higher, and some mishits lower, but still at least 20" up the backwall. A couple with good wrist action actually topped out right at the 38" line on our backwall...

Hey, still pretty good after all these years! I thought you had a massive spin to bounce it up the back fence. A mid-30's former UCD player dropped in a few times, 6'2" thin Asian guy would super flex and bounce his serves over my head (no need to do that to beat me!). But, I've finally got a respectable doubles game to compete with younger retirees (they are all younger!).