Donut Tennis, the C&C way

[oserver]

you've illustrated you can physically hit a ball with the grip. there appears to be no benefit for it again. there's maybe one stroke with a moderate follow through. you're bunting the ball because you either don't have the time or the technique for loading up with a nice backswing. I waiving the white flag as for hoping you would see this and understand you're not benefitting from this but if I come across someone playing this way I'm going to have a field day playing against them. maybe you should work on the crafty part of two hands which seems to be the real benefit of playing two hands. disguise is all you can hope for

I don't have young legs anymore, and my USTA rating is only 4.0. Thank about someone over 20 but less than 1/3 of my age could do!

 

[oserver]

looks nothing like federer. You are applying his technique to every stroke but I see none of the power spin and dominance. Even if you look at it from a rec standpoint your game now looks worse than before...

Unfortunately, Federer is too old to adapt anything new after realizing that two-handed backhand might be better option. It seems he leaves that to their kids now.

 

[Crazy Finn]

I remember reading this some time back. Found the source...


Q. Steffi, if there is a stroke you would like to improve, what would that stroke be?

STEFFI GRAF: That's a tough one. Quite a few come up. I would probably say that I'd love to have a two-handed backhand.


Q. A two-handed backhand? Why?

STEFFI GRAF: Why? Well, you can really go for a lot more shots with two-handed backhand than one-handed. Obviously with a one-handed you don't have as much reach. With two-handed it helps so much on the return. And to have more control.

ASAP Sports Transcripts - Tennis - 1995 - WTA TOUR CHAMPIONSHIPS - November 18 - Steffi Graf

ASAPSports FastScripts, a system using state-of-the-art technology created to produce verbatim FastScripts of press conferences and player/team interviews at sporting events around the globe.

www.asapsports.com

Not sure I agree about the reach, but, otherwise.
I remember Steffi hit a lot more drive or topspin backhands early in her career and then moved to more slice. Her slice backhand was excellent, but that's pretty much all she hit after awhile.

 

[oserver]

I don't know about effectiveness, but your technique seems very good at making your opponent yell. Good for humiliating your opponent with weird and weak strokes I guess !

I'm going to get weaker by the month or year, if not by the day, but using this new model, my tennis life could be extended beyond what I could hoped for. A few years ago, I played two 5.0 (I was a 4.0C player then and now) in single USTA single matches, and didn't got bageled. The both complimented me about my agility. One can improve techniques at an old age, but agility and speed, forget them. Federer must felt this now, even just at 38.

 

[oserver]

I remember reading this some time back. Found the source...


Q. Steffi, if there is a stroke you would like to improve, what would that stroke be?

STEFFI GRAF: That's a tough one. Quite a few come up. I would probably say that I'd love to have a two-handed backhand.


Q. A two-handed backhand? Why?

STEFFI GRAF: Why? Well, you can really go for a lot more shots with two-handed backhand than one-handed. Obviously with a one-handed you don't have as much reach. With two-handed it helps so much on the return. And to have more control.

ASAP Sports Transcripts - Tennis - 1995 - WTA TOUR CHAMPIONSHIPS - November 18 - Steffi Graf

ASAPSports FastScripts, a system using state-of-the-art technology created to produce verbatim FastScripts of press conferences and player/team interviews at sporting events around the globe.

www.asapsports.com

Not sure I agree about the reach, but, otherwise.
I remember Steffi hit a lot more drive or topspin backhands early in her career and then moved to more slice. Her slice backhand was excellent, but that's pretty much all she hit after awhile.

Federer also said that he won't teach their kids one-handed backhand, but didn't say why.

I agree, reach is the problem for two-handers. But generally, it has advantages of power and control. Two-handed is inheritable more C&C then one-handed backhand (arm moving away from body, more E&C).

 

[Crazy Finn]

Do what you think works for you. We're all different.

If you watch Hsieh, she's able to use her two hand to get around quicker and create angles with her technique. Two hands does give you leverage, if you can take advantage of it. I can occasionally do this on the backhand. Worth trying...

When I was growing up, everyone tried to hit backhands one handed. I was the outlier in my area, but I was small and the racquet was heavy. Of course, when Agassi showed up, then it was cool to do 2 hands.

Years of trying to be a switch hitter in baseball didn't amount to much, but I think in the end it did help making my backhand feel organic, natural and connected.

Kids figure stuff out on their own. I'm sure if one of the them feels natural about the 1 hander, He'd change his mind. Then again, Roger wasn't my dad.

 

[Shroud]

Unfortunately, Federer is too old to adapt anything new after realizing that two-handed backhand might be better option. It seems he leaves that to their kids now.

First off I mention how YOUR adaptations of Federer are not working out and somehow Federer is too old to adapt. Thats a great dodge btw. I don't see any improvement in your game. It looks worse.

And I never saw fed say he would teach his kids a 2 hander BECAUSE it might be a better option. What he actually said was that it was EASIER to learn and since he can't teach them the 2 hander, he would start there and teach them the 1 hander later if they wanted.. Where did he ever say it might be a better stroke??

Here is the quote:

I focus more on, I guess, a good life balance with my family and tennis, how I can juggle all the things in my life. I know I love tennis and going out there to play. I would go for two-handed backhand for all of my four kids because it's easier, it's that simple.
If they want to change later on, I will teach them that one. But I can't teach them a double-hander as I can't hit that one. So that's somebody else's job. No, at the end of the day, I think also like with everything in life, you know, you also have your own character.
Some people decide to change it at 8, some at, you know, 14, some later, because they find it a good challenge. For now, that's what it is. You know, who cares anyway if they hit a double-hander or not? It shouldn't be in the press."

 

[oserver]

First off I mention how YOUR adaptations of Federer are not working out and somehow Federer is too old to adapt. Thats a great dodge btw. I don't see any improvement in your game. It looks worse.

And I never saw fed say he would teach his kids a 2 hander BECAUSE it might be a better option. What he actually said was that it was EASIER to learn and since he can't teach them the 2 hander, he would start there and teach them the 1 hander later if they wanted.. Where did he ever say it might be a better stroke??

Here is the quote:

I focus more on, I guess, a good life balance with my family and tennis, how I can juggle all the things in my life. I know I love tennis and going out there to play. I would go for two-handed backhand for all of my four kids because it's easier, it's that simple.
If they want to change later on, I will teach them that one. But I can't teach them a double-hander as I can't hit that one. So that's somebody else's job. No, at the end of the day, I think also like with everything in life, you know, you also have your own character.
Some people decide to change it at 8, some at, you know, 14, some later, because they find it a good challenge. For now, that's what it is. You know, who cares anyway if they hit a double-hander or not? It shouldn't be in the press."

If Federer started early enough, maybe he could outlast Djokovic; who knows. Anyway, this will be a useless & endless speculation anyway. Waiting for their kids for the conclusion won't be fun.

 

[oserver]

Do what you think works for you. We're all different.

If you watch Hsieh, she's able to use her two hand to get around quicker and create angles with her technique. Two hands does give you leverage, if you can take advantage of it. I can occasionally do this on the backhand. Worth trying...

When I was growing up, everyone tried to hit backhands one handed. I was the outlier in my area, but I was small and the racquet was heavy. Of course, when Agassi showed up, then it was cool to do 2 hands.

Years of trying to be a switch hitter in baseball didn't amount to much, but I think in the end it did help making my backhand feel organic, natural and connected.

Kids figure stuff out on their own. I'm sure if one of the them feels natural about the 1 hander, He'd change his mind. Then again, Roger wasn't my dad.

I'm more thinking in learning/coaching perspective. For example, do we really know what are advantages of different way to hit forehand and backhand? Are current explanations overall enough to give a very curious kid a satisfactory answer/answers?

Learning the C&C versus E&C models gives me a deeper level of understanding why things are the way they are now. Why single-handed backhand is a lot weaker than single-handed forehand. The chart on top of my updated paper only shows the RPM spin data, not MPH speed data. If we have combined data, even Gasquet, the only exception of on the RPM chart, won't be exception anymore. I like to be proved to be wrong on this.

 

[jersey34tennis]

welcome

 

[oserver]

welcome

Very impressive showing of two-handed play. "In the first round of the 2003 Wimbledon Championships, Sluiter stunned 20th seed and former World #1 Yevgeny Kafelnikov in five sets", from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raemon_Sluiter.

So I think the style is an under-developed one. The potential has been over-shadowed by F, N, J for the past two decades. With the soon fading away of big three, more diversity may happen.

I also noticed that his serve stance was a semi-open stance, not the pin-point stance.

Just watched a video of e-meeting between Nadal and Federer, while Nadal said he started with two-handed on both side at beginning of his tennis. Didn't aware of this before today, interesting!

 

[oserver]

A challenge to express complicated ideas in fewer words -

Abstract of (C & C) Style Symmetric Tennis