Doubles Positioning Question

[Cindysphinx]

Question: Your partner is serving from the ad court. You are close to the net in the deuce court. Your partner plans to S&V. Partner serves and you hear her moving up, but the receiver plays a topspin lob over your head. You realize you cannot overhead the ball. What do you do?

a. Call a "Switch" and move to the ad court, remaining at the net.
b. Call a "Switch" and move to the ad court, taking a position at the service line.
c. Call a "Switch" and move to the ad court, taking a position in no-man's land.
d. Call a "Switch" and move to the ad court, taking a position at the baseline.
e. Turn and run down the lob.
f. Something else, or it depends. Explain.

 

[jc4.0]

The auto-switch

Question: Your partner is serving from the ad court. You are close to the net in the deuce court. Your partner plans to S&V. Partner serves and you hear her moving up, but the receiver plays a topspin lob over your head. You realize you cannot overhead the ball. What do you do?

a. Call a "Switch" and move to the ad court, remaining at the net.
b. Call a "Switch" and move to the ad court, taking a position at the service line.
c. Call a "Switch" and move to the ad court, taking a position in no-man's land.
d. Call a "Switch" and move to the ad court, taking a position at the baseline.
e. Turn and run down the lob.
f. Something else, or it depends. Explain.

It depends on my partner but if I'm playing with a good one, I would switch to the ad court, staying reasonably close to the net. In my world the person in the back court is the one to call "switch" but I would go anyway without hesitation, knowing that she would run the lob down, seeing that I had no chance of getting it (but it needs to be a really good lob to cause me to not go after it). We don't have this kind of confusion, it's an automatic move. You and your partner should get this clear before you play together. YOur partner might feel more comfortable with a different strategy.

 

[shell]

I would move to ad side around the service line, after my partner called me off the lob.

 

[damazing]

Depending on how good the opponents lob is - i.e. to the baseline, to the no man's land. If she can easily get to it and hit a good shot I'd switch to the other side. But if she's not shown that she can hit good deep shots when lobbed then I'd move back to the baseline on the Ad side. I've been the target practice many times from my partners who give a half hearted weak lob back that gives the net person on the other side a easy smash at me.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Hmmm. I find this a tricky question. S&V isn't something I do regularly, and it is dilemmas like this that make me wonder if it is worth it!

Most people I play with play a 1-up, 1-back formation. In those situations, it is easy: lobbed player calls for help, partner at baseline runs to cover the lob. There is no reason for the net player to surrender the net; they just switch courts.

It seems to be more tricky when the deep player is coming in, as the deep player is not back at the baseline, in decent position to hit a good response to the lob. In those cases, I leave the net and go to the baseline or no-man's land while my partner runs down the lob. I figure the chances that the running player will toss up something weak are high, so I should be off the net to defend the smash. If my partner does manage a good shot, I can always move back up, no problem. Or we can defend the overhead together at the baseline and wait together for something to approach on.

I am getting some resistance from certain partners when I am the one running down the lob. They don't want to move back from the net, even if I yell "Come back with me" as I am running. But if they don't come back, we have to defend a potential smash 1-up, 1-back, which is not good.

That resistance is starting to make me wonder: What are the reasons in favor of having the net person stay at the net when the S&V/approaching player has reversed direction and is running down the lob?

 

[Spokewench]

When I have a serve and volley partner - and I am at the net. and the opponents hit a lob.

My first move will be to recognize the lob and begin to run back to retrieve the lob; if my partner calls me off, i.e. says mine, then I will return to about a step in front of the service line on the side that the lob is not on. (this may mean a switch of court side). I am anticipating that my partner will probably lob the opposing team; since that is usually what happens when you are going back to get a good lob. A lob by my partner is in this case, a defensive shot that immediately will put you on the offensive again; so as I see her lob is long and not short, I will immediately move forward a step or two to become the aggressive offensive player that I should be; if the partner flubs and puts up a short shot, I expect that my partner will say short, watch out or something to that effect which gives me time to back up a bit in anticipation of an overhead from my opponents. Tennis is never the same; it is a chess game, hit an aggressive baseline shot, move forward, hit an approach volley well; and move forward some more till you can put the shot away. Your goal should always be moving forward when you are playing doubles; however, if your opponents change this in some way, i.e. the lob, you adjust to that shot and try to make another offensive shot that will allow your team (Both players on your team) to move forward. If you play like you are always afraid of the lob, i.e. play up and back constantly, never serve and volley, etc., you will eventually get beaten. You should never be afraid of the lob; it is coverable more times than not; and you can lob right back, to put yourself on the offense again.

I can't stand it when my partner will never come to net. It's like never poaching! Yeah, they can pass you down the line, but what's doubles without poaching? Working both teammates forward is percentage tennis

spoke

 

[GucciRogue]

It all depends on how deep the Lob is and were your partner is at that time.

 

[Cindysphinx]

It all depends on how deep the Lob is and were your partner is at that time.

To clarify, the lob is too deep for the net person to cover with an overhead.

Partner is on her way to net.

 

[Cindysphinx]

When I have a serve and volley partner - and I am at the net. and the opponents hit a lob.

My first move will be to recognize the lob and begin to run back to retrieve the lob; if my partner calls me off, i.e. says mine, then I will return to about a step in front of the service line on the side that the lob is not on. (this may mean a switch of court side). I am anticipating that my partner will probably lob the opposing team; since that is usually what happens when you are going back to get a good lob. A lob by my partner is in this case, a defensive shot that immediately will put you on the offensive again; so as I see her lob is long and not short, I will immediately move forward a step or two to become the aggressive offensive player that I should be; if the partner flubs and puts up a short shot, I expect that my partner will say short, watch out or something to that effect which gives me time to back up a bit in anticipation of an overhead from my opponents. Tennis is never the same; it is a chess game, hit an aggressive baseline shot, move forward, hit an approach volley well; and move forward some more till you can put the shot away. Your goal should always be moving forward when you are playing doubles; however, if your opponents change this in some way, i.e. the lob, you adjust to that shot and try to make another offensive shot that will allow your team (Both players on your team) to move forward. If you play like you are always afraid of the lob, i.e. play up and back constantly, never serve and volley, etc., you will eventually get beaten. You should never be afraid of the lob; it is coverable more times than not; and you can lob right back, to put yourself on the offense again.

I can't stand it when my partner will never come to net. It's like never poaching! Yeah, they can pass you down the line, but what's doubles without poaching? Working both teammates forward is percentage tennis

spoke

Re the bold bit . . .

My pro is trying to train me out of this. When my partner hits a great lob, my instinct is to close the net. Man, I just get right up there.

He says I should hover around the service line in that situation. The reason is that the most likely reply is another lob, and you want to be in position to end the point with an overhead. Crowd the net and the lob may get behind you or cause you to hit a defensive overhead.

He says that from the service line, you can easily cover any groundstroke that someone chasing a lob can manage. And you can also be ready to overhead any lob, deep or short.

This makes sense, but some invisible force seems to pull me closer than the service line!

I'm surprised how many people familiar with S&V want the server to decide who plays the lob going over the partner's head. . . . Is that the norm at higher levels?

 

[GucciRogue]

Ok. In that case I would switch to the baseline line in the ad side and if my partner hits a good lob back I will move forward to the service line. It depends on my partners defensive shot.

 

[GucciRogue]

Ha I didn't see the post in top of me.

 

[SJS]

Re the bold bit . . .



He says I should hover around the service line in that situation. The reason is that the most likely reply is another lob, and you want to be in position to end the point with an overhead. Crowd the net and the lob may get behind you or cause you to hit a defensive overhead.

He says that from the service line, you can easily cover any groundstroke that someone chasing a lob can manage. And you can also be ready to overhead any lob, deep or short.

This is exactly how I've been taught and how most women I play with handle lobs.

 

[ChipNCharge]

Question: Your partner is serving from the ad court. You are close to the net in the deuce court. Your partner plans to S&V. Partner serves and you hear her moving up, but the receiver plays a topspin lob over your head. You realize you cannot overhead the ball. What do you do?

a. Call a "Switch" and move to the ad court, remaining at the net.
b. Call a "Switch" and move to the ad court, taking a position at the service line.
c. Call a "Switch" and move to the ad court, taking a position in no-man's land.
d. Call a "Switch" and move to the ad court, taking a position at the baseline.
e. Turn and run down the lob.
f. Something else, or it depends. Explain.

"e". In serve-and-volley doubles, if a lob goes over your head, you're responsible for running it down.

 

[Cindysphinx]

"e". In serve-and-volley doubles, if a lob goes over your head, you're responsible for running it down.

To clarify, you're saying that the net player (not the server) is responsible for turning 180 degrees and running down the lob that went over the net player's head?

 

[JavierLW]

"e". In serve-and-volley doubles, if a lob goes over your head, you're responsible for running it down.

No way!!!

Part of serving and volleying is split stepping or balancing yourself so you can make your next move toward the ball once it's hit, shagging down lobs is a part of that.

If you've ran so far in that you cant cover that lob then you obviously didnt split step, and you're over-running your coverage ability. (like when you serve and volley and book it full speed to get 2 inches from the net without any regard for where the ball is heading)

If both players know what they are doing though, I dont believe that the net player need say "switch" necessarily. That can be planned in advance. The serve and volleyer is essentially the deeper player in that case and they should always be ready to possibly backup their partner even if it does look like their partner is going to get it.

(or if you have to say "switch" and your partner was not ready to get that ball, it's probably way too late, especially if they've overrun their coverage on top of it)

 

[Spokewench]

Re the bold bit . . .

My pro is trying to train me out of this. When my partner hits a great lob, my instinct is to close the net. Man, I just get right up there.

He says I should hover around the service line in that situation. The reason is that the most likely reply is another lob, and you want to be in position to end the point with an overhead. Crowd the net and the lob may get behind you or cause you to hit a defensive overhead.

He says that from the service line, you can easily cover any groundstroke that someone chasing a lob can manage. And you can also be ready to overhead any lob, deep or short.

This makes sense, but some invisible force seems to pull me closer than the service line!

I'm surprised how many people familiar with S&V want the server to decide who plays the lob going over the partner's head. . . . Is that the norm at higher levels?

I said a step or two not crowd the net. I happen to be very fast - I was a college level sprinter so I usually can get away with a step farther than most, but I am quite aware that I can get lobbed when a lob goes up so I'm ready to go back and get it; but I'm not going back to the baseline unless I'm the one running the lob down. I don't really know what the norm is at higher levels, but sometimes, the person back is not always the one with the best shot at a lob. Let's say the server comes in on her/his serve, and the ball goes over his/her head. It can be quite awkward (sp?) for that person to turn and go backwards over their head, but it can be easier for the person who is at net to turn and go diagonally across the court to get the ball; even if it is a little further to run. I have done many, many drills working on just this process. So, I believe you have to look at each situation and be very verbal with your partner on who is running the lob down; once it is decided, the person running the lob down goes to the lob, the other partner goes to the other side of the court NEAR THE SERVICE LINE; to respond to the next ball hit. Movement at all times, to the service line, forward or back determined by the shot that your partner hits, and etc. It is a chess match, there is no ONE WAY to do do it.

 

[Cindysphinx]

=If both players know what they are doing though, I dont believe that the net player need say "switch" necessarily. That can be planned in advance. The serve and volleyer is essentially the deeper player in that case and they should always be ready to possibly backup their partner even if it does look like their partner is going to get it.

Not so sure about this bit.

First, you can't plan in advance who should take the lob because you don't know what kind of lob it will be.

Second, if the net player is going to overhead the ball (hopefully by saying "Mine"), the server is supposed to come to the service line, ready to deal with any reply to the overhead, right? If the server hovers to back up the net player, the server may be out of position to deal with a ball that squirts off of the opponents' racket off of the overhead.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I said a step or two not crowd the net. I happen to be very fast - I was a college level sprinter so I usually can get away with a step farther than most, but I am quite aware that I can get lobbed when a lob goes up so I'm ready to go back and get it; but I'm not going back to the baseline unless I'm the one running the lob down. I don't really know what the norm is at higher levels, but sometimes, the person back is not always the one with the best shot at a lob. Let's say the server comes in on her/his serve, and the ball goes over his/her head. It can be quite awkward (sp?) for that person to turn and go backwards over their head, but it can be easier for the person who is at net to turn and go diagonally across the court to get the ball; even if it is a little further to run. I have done many, many drills working on just this process. So, I believe you have to look at each situation and be very verbal with your partner on who is running the lob down; once it is decided, the person running the lob down goes to the lob, the other partner goes to the other side of the court NEAR THE SERVICE LINE; to respond to the next ball hit. Movement at all times, to the service line, forward or back determined by the shot that your partner hits, and etc. It is a chess match, there is no ONE WAY to do do it.

OK, so that makes sense. If you go to the service line, you can then adjust forward or back depending on what your partner is doing with the lob.

Is there an advantage to going to the service line instead of the baseline? I ask because it is easier for players to run forward (from the baseline to service line) than the reverse (from service line to baseline) in case of a smash.

 

[JavierLW]

Not so sure about this bit.

First, you can't plan in advance who should take the lob because you don't know what kind of lob it will be.

Second, if the net player is going to overhead the ball (hopefully by saying "Mine"), the server is supposed to come to the service line, ready to deal with any reply to the overhead, right? If the server hovers to back up the net player, the server may be out of position to deal with a ball that squirts off of the opponents' racket off of the overhead.

I didnt say they need to go to any special position to backup their partner, I just said they have to be ready. (it can be on the service line, I certainly didnt mean they run behind their partner and wait ahead of time)

If they are not ready, you can yell "SWITCH" all you want and it's not going to matter. If they are ready they have eyes, they can see what's going on, not to mention that there are tons of lobs that clearly are not going to get intercepted by their partner so they should be shagging them down as soon as possible. (which is the part that they should be aware of ahead of time)

I think we get caught up into this sort of thing though because many of us has 20 different partners in a short period of time ,and many times maybe we get stuck with a new partner in a real match for the first time.

If I play with someone a lot, we dont have to say as much, everything just flows a lot nicer. We save all the excess communication for the unique situations that dont come up quite as often, not frequent ones that we both sort of already know our role on.

I think the answer to your OP question really depends on your partner though and your faith that they are going to somehow shag that lob down and do something productive (or at least get you out of trouble with it).

If they are awesome at clearing net players!!!!! Then I'd stay at the net. Although that also depends on if my opponents are smart enough to realize they should close in or not themselves. (if one of them stays back I can feel safer at the net)

If you are not so sure, then you need to backup to the service line at least. Or if your opponents are both now ready to close into the net (especially if they are on the service line and not closer because you know they can close in if they need to and they can pick off a lob attempt easier)

If you think you are in real trouble though then get back to the baseline. If you can make it there in time and still be ready for the next shot...... If you smell an obvious overhead pending, that's where you are going to wish you were anyway.....

So it all depends on the 3 other people on the court, not just some blind idea of "what should I do???" according to some book or some question on the TW forum.

 

[Nellie]

well - there are no right/wrong since the answer depends

I think E because I find it really hard to s&v, unless I lose aggressiveness

I like b if the netman cannot get the ball, because, as you noted, it is easier to switch back to offense to, for example, poach a ground stroke. If the opponent come both up and my partner is going to stay back every time, I would go with D (to the baseline) to stay close to the partner to minimize angles

 

[larry10s]

as a serve and vollier heres my experience. ive learned to split and cover the lob if need be. if the opposing team lobs alot i have the net player play farther back in the service box so i dont have to go foward and back ward. im not as concerned about them poaching cause if they cant cover the lob they will probably not stray to far to poach. plus id rather hit the first volley and take the net or if i get a floater take out the net person. to answer your question if i have to chase the lob its better for the net person to come back with me on the switch than switch side of the serveice box

 

[Spokewench]

OK, so that makes sense. If you go to the service line, you can then adjust forward or back depending on what your partner is doing with the lob.

Is there an advantage to going to the service line instead of the baseline? I ask because it is easier for players to run forward (from the baseline to service line) than the reverse (from service line to baseline) in case of a smash.

For me, farther forward is always better; that's where I want to be; if they make me go back, I will, but they better make me!

 

[Dark_Angel85]

I don't know about you guys, but in a competitive game, when I play doubles, we always talk about the lob and who takes it in between points. For example, before the point, my partner would say "Okay, I'm gonna rush up on this one... so cover the lobs ok?" or "I'm gonna hit it wide, so watch out for the alley as well ok?"

these conversations in between points will clarify things up loooooooooooong before you make that instantaneous decision...

In fact, most of the time, when my partner says "I'm coming in on this one, watch out for lobs ok?" Immediately, I'm in charge of running down lobs regardless of whatever the side is and my partner will ensure he watches out for the cover.

Of course, that can vary also depending on what we plan to do for that point. The gist of all these however remains the same - communication.

 

[Cindysphinx]

as a serve and vollier heres my experience. ive learned to split and cover the lob if need be. if the opposing team lobs alot i have the net player play farther back in the service box so i dont have to go foward and back ward. im not as concerned about them poaching cause if they cant cover the lob they will probably not stray to far to poach. plus id rather hit the first volley and take the net or if i get a floater take out the net person. to answer your question if i have to chase the lob its better for the net person to come back with me on the switch than switch side of the serveice box

Larry, it sounds like we would make a good doubles pair.

I think it makes a lot of sense for the net player to be farther back in the service box if I tell her I am going to S&V. It is hard for the net player to be a threat to poach AND be a threat to overhead at the same time.

So which is the better thing for the net player to defend against if I am going to S&V: The groundstroke, or the overhead?

Well, returners have been blessed with the gift of sight. If you S&V, they will see you doing it. So they will try not to achieve depth but instead will either try to hit a dipper, a short angled slice, or a lob. The net player is not going to be able to hit a put-away on a decent dipper or short angled slice, so why play close to the net hoping to poach?

In my experience, the chance is good that the returner will lob the net player if faced with S&V rather than groundstroke. And if the returner is confident enough to hit a groundstroke, it won't be poachable. What does work (in ladies 3.5, where people lob a lot and serves are not huge), is to have the net player be mentally ready to hit an overhead, and position accordingly.

I tried this last weekend with a wonderful partner who will S&V. Returner was an older lady with an incomplete stroke that lacks power who lobs a lot. We drove her nuts because my partner would come in, and I would start in the middle of the box and then move back even farther when she was hitting. I was totally ready for the lob and kept hitting overheads, to the point where the other opponent started scolding the returner for hitting "short lobs."

What if I had stayed close to the net, hoping to poach when my partner S&V'd? She would have lobbed me, I probably couldn't have played these lobs offensively if I could reach them at all, and my partner would have had to reverse course and try to reach them.

 

[Cindysphinx]

What a coincidence!

I went to my 3-and-a-pro clinic today, and the guy decides to teach this exact situation (with no prompting whatever by me). Here's what he taught:

Say Topaz and I are playing Raiden and Javier. I serve to Raiden in the deuce court and move in to net (split-stepping behind the service line). Raiden hits his first shot to my feet, and I hit an approach volley. Meanwhile, Javier and Topaz are in their net positions, shifting as appropriate with the ball.

Raiden then lobs his next shot over Topaz. Topaz has responsibility for that ball and is supposed to immediately decide whether she will play it. If she will hit her overhead offensively, she will say "Mine." I will then go to the deuce service line and wait there in case the overhead is returned.

If Topaz cannot reach the lob, she will say "Switch" or "You" or "Help. Topaz will then hurry from the ad court to the deuce court, at the side T, facing inward. From this position, she can see all three players and the ball. This is an intermediate position -- Topaz will decide where to go based on what she sees.

If she sees me struggling to reach the ball and Javier and Raiden salivating at net, she will scoot to the baseline. If sees me playing a groundstroke to Raiden at his baseline, Topaz will close the net and try to poach once my ball gets past Javier. If she sees my lob go over Javier's head and an ensuing scramble, she knows to position to hit a smash.

Topaz's intermediate position when I am hitting or chasing the lob is also helpful to me. I may be able to play the lob out of the air as a BH volley. If Topaz is completely out of my way, I have more options for placement. If Topaz is crowding the net in the deuce court or -- God forbid -- still standing at net in the ad court, she is restricting what I can do.

It took two hours for us to get the hang of this. It was actually pretty funny, as each of us had a different type of brain cramp. One lady simply could net get the words out when a lob went up. The other lady would say "Switch" and start running away from the ball even if the lob was going to drop right in the place she was standing. And I kept going after lobs that were way too deep, shouting "Mine" and then being unable to play the ball.

Now, my original idea was that I want my partners to fall off the net to the baseline when I am running down a lob that went over their head. Pro said there should be no need to do that when one's partner understands that she needs to call a switch and then take an intermediate position to assess the situation, falling back to the baseline if the situation is dire. Since none of my partners were doing that -- usually just moving sideways while remaining at net even if an overhead was coming -- I was calling them off.

The other thing that was interesting was that if you are already on your way to net, it is very easy to take lobs out of the air as high volleys. If you could get there before it bounced, it was a much easier shot than if you let it bounce. I never would have guessed that.

Man, doubles can be complicated. But fun!

 

[larry10s]

^^^^^^^^^Larry, it sounds like we would make a good doubles pair.
you know what you are doing even if execution needs to be better. with me too btw. we could communicate realizing we are a team trying to win TOGETHER. thats what doubles is about. i know operation doubles teaches that move to the side "t" to get out of the way but i think its easier to come back with you r partner .that gets you out of the way and if you hit a good lob in reply and they have to chase it you both move up as a pair and are 2 at the net(heaven.

 

[amarone]

I don't ever call "switch". If I cannot get the lob, I will call "you", which clearly states that I expect my partner to get it. I will then switch, which my partner will be expecting and I do not need to announce the fact.

As to where I switch to, it will depend on what shot I expect partner to be able to put on the ball. If partner is going to struggle to get to it, I expect a lob to be the response so I will be heading back towards the baseline. If I expect partner to get a decent ground stroke or volley on it, I will go to the service line if both opponents are at net, or a little further in if one opponent is still back - I will expect partner to hit to that opponent (assuming partner is not going to be able to be offensive enough to go at the net person).