Evert's and Graf's first four FO titles - a comparison

Joe Pike

Banned
I think Graf would crumble under the weight of a prime Evert's unparalleled mental toughness and steadiness on clay. Graf might eek out some winners here and there. But, at the end of the day, her game just wouldn't hold up having to run from side to side and generate her own pace for an entire match.


Didn't Evert suggest that she never played better than in the mid-80s?
And didn't she win the FO in 1985 & 1986?

16-year-old Graf beat her 64 75 in Hilton Head 1986.
And never lost again to Evert.

Who is this mythical "prime Evert" who would have troubled a 19-year-old prime Graf ... ?
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Didn't Evert suggest that she never played better than in the mid-80s?
And didn't she win the FO in 1985 & 1986?

16-year-old Graf beat her 64 75 in Hilton Head 1986.
And never lost again to Evert.

Who is this mythical "prime Evert" who would have troubled a 19-year-old prime Graf ... ?

"Didn't Evert suggest . . ?" Blahahahaha . . . what a blatantly transparent strawman! The rest of your blathering crumbles like the false premise it's founded on, or like an overmatched Evert opponent on clay!
 
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Let there be no mistake that Chris Evert is all-time greatest clay court player in tennis history.

Her 120+ consecutive match win streak on clay makes this thread irrevelant.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse
 

Arafel

Professional
Let there be no mistake that Chris Evert is all-time greatest clay court player in tennis history.

Her 120+ consecutive match win streak on clay makes this thread irrevelant.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

Trump card! Thank you for making an appearance Mother Majorie.
 

Arafel

Professional
Graf beat Martina Navratilova in her first two Wimbledon finals easily (1988 & 1989). Martina played one close set in each but was wiped off the court in the remaining sets. Navratilova, the player who had won Wimbledon in the 6 previous years. Who would win Wimbledon again the next year. And who would make her last Wimbledon final four years after that.

Graf destroyed Chris Evert 62 61 in the 1989 semis. The player who had made at least the semis in Wimbledon every year since 1972 save 1983 (and was Navratilova's main opponent for more than a decade in Wimbledon).

Teenage Graf destroyed Pam Shriver, one of Evertilova's main grass-court opponents of the 80s, 60 62 and 61 62 in Wimbledon in 1987 & 1988.

Hana Mandlikova, the other main Evertilova Wimbledon opponent of the 80s, got lucky that she didn't meet young Graf in those years there. Although she lost 14 of 14 sets against Steffi in 1987-89 elsewhere (10 sets with 3 or less games).

Novotna, Sanchez, Sabatini in later years were tougher than Shriver, Mandlikova, though.

19 year old prime Graf destroyed about-to-retire 34 year old Evert in the 1989 Wimbledon semis and you are using it as an example of Graf's superiority? Seriously?

It pretty much goes for all of the opponents you list. They had all been playing for 10 years or more and were in the twilight of their careers.

And on what planet do you put Novotna and Sabatini, one-time Slam winners, over four-time Slam winner and winner of 3-of-4 Slams Hana Mandlikova? You might, just might, be able to say that Sanchez is her equal. The thing about Hana though, is she could get on streaks were she was unbeatable. She could never maintain her consistency like Martina was able to, but when Hana was on, almost nobody could challenge her. I'd put Hana winning the US Open in 85 by beating Chris in the semis and Martina in the finals over anything Sanchez accomplished.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
Let there be no mistake that Chris Evert is all-time greatest clay court player in tennis history.

Her 120+ consecutive match win streak on clay makes this thread irrevelant.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse


Yes, beating up Morozova, Turnbull, Casals, Reid and Jausovec types on clay is really impressive. Graf really dodged some bullets here!
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
My all time rankings on clay and grass:


Clay:

1. Chris Evert
2. Suzanne Lenglen
3. Steffi Graf
4. Margaret Court
5. Monica Seles
6. Justine Henin
7. Maureen Connolly
8. Aranxta Sanchez Vicario
9. Helen Wills Moody
10. Martina Navratilova


On grass:

1. Martina Navratilova
2. Helen Wills Moody
3. Suzanne Lenglen
4. Steffi Graf
5. Billie Jean King
6. Margaret Court
7. Maureen Connolly
8. Venus Williams
9. Serena Williams
10. Chris Evert

Lenglen is probably the best combined clay/grass player ever. Steffi is the best combined clay/grass player of the Open Era.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
19 year old prime Graf destroyed about-to-retire 34 year old Evert in the 1989 Wimbledon semis and you are using it as an example of Graf's superiority? Seriously?

It pretty much goes for all of the opponents you list. They had all been playing for 10 years or more and were in the twilight of their careers.

And on what planet do you put Novotna and Sabatini, one-time Slam winners, over four-time Slam winner and winner of 3-of-4 Slams Hana Mandlikova? You might, just might, be able to say that Sanchez is her equal. The thing about Hana though, is she could get on streaks were she was unbeatable. ...


Funny that - suddenly - Navratilova, Evert were "too old" when Graf appeared on the scene in 1987.
And Mandlikova, Shriver - in their mid-20s - went into a indefinite slump.

All being at their peaks just 1 or 2 years earlier ...
:):):)
 

Joe Pike

Banned
My all time rankings on clay and grass:


Clay:

1. Chris Evert
2. Suzanne Lenglen
3. Steffi Graf
4. Margaret Court
5. Monica Seles
6. Justine Henin
7. Maureen Connolly
8. Aranxta Sanchez Vicario
9. Helen Wills Moody
10. Martina Navratilova


On grass:

1. Martina Navratilova
2. Helen Wills Moody
3. Suzanne Lenglen
4. Steffi Graf
5. Billie Jean King
6. Margaret Court
7. Maureen Connolly
8. Venus Williams
9. Serena Williams
10. Chris Evert

Lenglen is probably the best combined clay/grass player ever. Steffi is the best combined clay/grass player of the Open Era.


Could you post some clips of Lenglen on YouTube?
I mean, just take some of your DVDs.

And were is Alice Marble?
 

BTURNER

Legend
Graf won her FO titles against 30/31-year-old Navratilova, 32/34-year-old Evert, against Mandlikova, Sabatini, Seles, Sanchez, Martinez, Novotna, Pierce, Hingis among others. 1987-99 had the strongest field on clay in the history of women's tennis.

Could you explain this inclusion of Evert in this list? Is this an error? Evert beat Graf at RG in 1885 but the reverse never happened. Evert's record vs Graf on clay is pretty clear - one straight set loss on Har tru. Graf never took a set from Evert otherwise on green or red clay.
 

Arafel

Professional
Funny that - suddenly - Navratilova, Evert were "too old" when Graf appeared on the scene in 1987.
And Mandlikova, Shriver - in their mid-20s - went into a indefinite slump.

All being at their peaks just 1 or 2 years earlier ...
:):):)

And yet Steffi had already retired before she even could get close to that. Funny that. It's like arguing that because Davenport beat Steffi in the 1999 Wimbledon finals, she is a much better player.

The greats, even aging, can give the young guns a run (Chris pushed Steffi in the 88 AO, for example), but there's no arguing that they are not quite as good as they were in their physical prime. For Evert, that happens to be the late 70s.
 

BTURNER

Legend
And yet Steffi had already retired before she even could get close to that. Funny that. It's like arguing that because Davenport beat Steffi in the 1999 Wimbledon finals, she is a much better player.

The greats, even aging, can give the young guns a run (Chris pushed Steffi in the 88 AO, for example), but there's no arguing that they are not quite as good as they were in their physical prime. For Evert, that happens to be the late 70s.

I really think her physical prime was the mid 80's (faster and stronger) but her mental game was definitely stronger in the 70's. She got more slow starts beginning in 1982-83, and mental lapses during / and flat matches in 84 and they began to creep into big match play by 86. things went rapidly downhill in the mental toughness consistency area but some of what appeared uncharacteristic UF/ DF were efforts to be more agressive/hit out more etc to compete in the winner dept.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
And yet Steffi had already retired before she even could get close to that. Funny that. It's like arguing that because Davenport beat Steffi in the 1999 Wimbledon finals, she is a much better player.

The greats, even aging, can give the young guns a run (Chris pushed Steffi in the 88 AO, for example), but there's no arguing that they are not quite as good as they were in their physical prime. For Evert, that happens to be the late 70s.

Evert herself claimed her best ever tennis was in 1985. She had to get better to challenge and beat Martina. Better in the late 70s? You mean when she was starting to get owned by a 16 year old Austin and losing matches to a 32 year old Wade. That Evert would have never been able to come back and challenge and peak the mid 80s Martina.
 

darrinbaker00

Professional
And yet Steffi had already retired before she even could get close to that. Funny that. It's like arguing that because Davenport beat Steffi in the 1999 Wimbledon finals, she is a much better player.

The greats, even aging, can give the young guns a run (Chris pushed Steffi in the 88 AO, for example), but there's no arguing that they are not quite as good as they were in their physical prime. For Evert, that happens to be the late 70s.

Seeing as how Evert won 90 percent of her matches as a professional, I'd say she was "in her prime" for her entire career.
 

BTURNER

Legend
Evert herself claimed her best ever tennis was in 1985. She had to get better to challenge and beat Martina. Better in the late 70s? You mean when she was starting to get owned by a 16 year old Austin and losing matches to a 32 year old Wade. That Evert would have never been able to come back and challenge and peak the mid 80s Martina.

Yeah and in 84 she lost to all time great Manuela Maleeva on clay and GOAT candidate Kathy Jordan ( nope she wasn't sick)

In 85 she lost in RD 1 to that same GOAT candidate again who wsn't sick, and got straight- setted on clay by that multi french open queen Zina Garrison


In 86 she got straight setted by 16 year old Steffi Graf on clay, and lost in straights to Sukova who she had never lost to before in the semis of the Open. she said tot he affect in her post interview " I could not seem to get motivated. I know if you can't get motivated for the US Open its bad. " Of course she also lost on clay in Fed cup to Cecchini of Italy. You will have to google that name.

My point is the woman who went years and years without loosing on clay was loosing every single year, not because she she was getting worse as a player but because she was no longer as mentally tough and less patient, and more dependent on her physical improvement, speed and power, nwew found strength on volley and serve. It was a trade off that made her better in some ways but more vulnerable mentally especially on clay. She could easily have lost in that '86 RG - twice thanks to slow starts, more errors and erratic serving. The very traits that did her in against 16 year old Graf. She ended up playing her last brilliant clay tennis in those final sets at RG.
 
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suwanee4712

Professional
I have managed to help remind you that Evert faced
- Wade, Heldman and Morozova as the top seeds in FO 74,
- 20-year-old Navratilova and Morozova as top seeds in FO 75,
- Turnbull, 33-year-old Wade and Barker as top seeds in FO 79,
- 36-year-old King, Turnbull, Mandlikova and Jaeger as top seeds in FO 80.
No more top-10 players involved.

Do you think Conchita Martinez would not have won FO in those years?

That's a darn good question. Would Conchita have won during those years? I honestly don't know. I think you're giving her too much credit if you think its a slam dunk that Conchita would've won multiple French Open titles during any era except perhaps in years where Evert and Navratilova didn't play Paris.

Let me ask you this: Would Conchita have won a French Open title had she been required to play Evert somewhere in the draw?
 

suwanee4712

Professional
Graf beat Martina Navratilova in her first two Wimbledon finals easily (1988 & 1989). Martina played one close set in each but was wiped off the court in the remaining sets. Navratilova, the player who had won Wimbledon in the 6 previous years. Who would win Wimbledon again the next year. And who would make her last Wimbledon final four years after that.

Graf destroyed Chris Evert 62 61 in the 1989 semis. The player who had made at least the semis in Wimbledon every year since 1972 save 1983 (and was Navratilova's main opponent for more than a decade in Wimbledon).

Teenage Graf destroyed Pam Shriver, one of Evertilova's main grass-court opponents of the 80s, 60 62 and 61 62 in Wimbledon in 1987 & 1988.

Hana Mandlikova, the other main Evertilova Wimbledon opponent of the 80s, got lucky that she didn't meet young Graf in those years there. Although she lost 14 of 14 sets against Steffi in 1987-89 elsewhere (10 sets with 3 or less games).

Novotna, Sanchez, Sabatini in later years were tougher than Shriver, Mandlikova, though.

My guess is that you and everyone else in the world that truly believes that last statement could fit into a phone booth.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
I actually think Novotna and Mandlikova on grass on carpet are probably similar level. On hard courts or clay Hana would clearly be better.

Sabatini and Shriver on grass would also be similar level. Sabatini on other surfaces would be better, I only put them equal on grass since it is Pam's best surface.

As for Sanchez what we do know is she is a far harder an opponent for Graf on any surface than Shriver, regardless how one thinks ability wise they compare. Just look at Wimbeldon 87 and 88 matches vs Wimbeldon 95 and 96. Shriver was definitely not past her prime in 87 and 88 either, she had some of her best performances ever those two years. The same applies to Sabatini who is also a tough matchup for Graf which Shriver is not.
 

suwanee4712

Professional
I actually think Novotna and Mandlikova on grass on carpet are probably similar level. On hard courts or clay Hana would clearly be better.

Sabatini and Shriver on grass would also be similar level. Sabatini on other surfaces would be better, I only put them equal on grass since it is Pam's best surface.

As for Sanchez what we do know is she is a far harder an opponent for Graf on any surface than Shriver, regardless how one thinks ability wise they compare. Just look at Wimbeldon 87 and 88 matches vs Wimbeldon 95 and 96. Shriver was definitely not past her prime in 87 and 88 either, she had some of her best performances ever those two years. The same applies to Sabatini who is also a tough matchup for Graf which Shriver is not.

I do agree that Sabatini is a tougher matchup for Graf than Shriver and overall is a better all around player everywhere except on serve and in court sense. It's not a surprise that Gaby ended up winning a grand slam (although I'm still somewhat surprised it wasn't the French) and Shriver didn't.

But in Shriver's defense she grew up in a much different era tactically speaking and technology-wise than most of Graf's rivals. Had things been more even I do think Shriver's cerebral strength and her straight forward approach would've had at least decent success vs. Sanchez, Martinez, and most especially Novotna.

Just to tweak Joe a little further, I think had things been more even Turnbull's little dinks, speed, and court sense would've troubled Steffi more often than he would like to think. I mean if Lori McNeil, who I loved to watch but had little power to her game, could do it then I'm sure Wendy could have too.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
That's a darn good question. Would Conchita have won during those years? I honestly don't know. I think you're giving her too much credit if you think its a slam dunk that Conchita would've won multiple French Open titles during any era except perhaps in years where Evert and Navratilova didn't play Paris.

Let me ask you this: Would Conchita have won a French Open title had she been required to play Evert somewhere in the draw?


1995 FO Conchita - definitely yes.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
I actually think Novotna and Mandlikova on grass on carpet are probably similar level. On hard courts or clay Hana would clearly be better.

Sabatini and Shriver on grass would also be similar level. Sabatini on other surfaces would be better, I only put them equal on grass since it is Pam's best surface.

As for Sanchez what we do know is she is a far harder an opponent for Graf on any surface than Shriver, regardless how one thinks ability wise they compare. Just look at Wimbeldon 87 and 88 matches vs Wimbeldon 95 and 96. Shriver was definitely not past her prime in 87 and 88 either, she had some of her best performances ever those two years. The same applies to Sabatini who is also a tough matchup for Graf which Shriver is not.


To compare Sabatini with someone like Shriver is ridiculous.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
... I think had things been more even Turnbull's little dinks, speed, and court sense would've troubled Steffi more often than he would like to think. I mean if Lori McNeil, who I loved to watch but had little power to her game, could do it then I'm sure Wendy could have too.


Turnbull beat Steffi twice. Tough two-setters.
In 1984.
When Steffi was 14.

Steffi won the third and last match against Wendy. With 61 63.
In 1986.
Steffi was 16.

Turnbull reached her career high in the rankings in 1985.
#3.

Enuff said ...
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
I do agree that Sabatini is a tougher matchup for Graf than Shriver and overall is a better all around player everywhere except on serve and in court sense. It's not a surprise that Gaby ended up winning a grand slam (although I'm still somewhat surprised it wasn't the French) and Shriver didn't.

But in Shriver's defense she grew up in a much different era tactically speaking and technology-wise than most of Graf's rivals. Had things been more even I do think Shriver's cerebral strength and her straight forward approach would've had at least decent success vs. Sanchez, Martinez, and most especially Novotna.

Just to tweak Joe a little further, I think had things been more even Turnbull's little dinks, speed, and court sense would've troubled Steffi more often than he would like to think. I mean if Lori McNeil, who I loved to watch but had little power to her game, could do it then I'm sure Wendy could have too.

Yes I agree players like Shriver (and even Hana and Sukova) were at a disadvantage coming up against kids who grown up with the new technology and practicing and playing junior tournaments with other kids who were already grooving the two handed backhands, the topspin drives, and the power game which would be the new wave of tennis. If they had been similar age and come up along with the others they would probably have adapated better.

Shriver vs Martinez for instance would just depend on surfaces. Martinez would destroy Shriver on clay but they probably would hardly meet on it anyway, but Shriver should probably beat Martinez on grass or carpet. Hard courts would be the most interesting.

I dont remember Turnbull that well although I have seen her play a number of times. She does play somewhat similar to McNeil and is obviously a better player than McNeil though.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
To compare Sabatini with someone like Shriver is ridiculous.

Their head to head is 5-5 just so you know. They played some matches both when Gaby was very young, and some other matches in early 90s when Pam was no longer near her best in singles.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
Their head to head is 5-5 just so you know. They played some matches both when Gaby was very young, and some other matches in early 90s when Pam was no longer near her best in singles.


Their are 7-5 H2H, not 5-5. Just so you know.
11 of the 12 matches were on carpet, grass or fast HC, favouring Shriver.
All of Shriver's wins were against a 16/17-year-old Gaby.
Gaby's first win was when she still was 15.
Only two of 12 matches were post-89.

But nice try.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Their are 7-5 H2H, not 5-5. Just so you know.
11 of the 12 matches were on carpet, grass or fast HC, favouring Shriver.

The fact you acknowledge and feel the need to point out that last fact proves that even you believe Shriver and Sabatini are comparable on grass, so thanks.

Nobody is talking about how they compare on clay, or denying Sabatini is the better player considering all surfaces. We were talking about competition on strictly grass now.


All of Shriver's wins were against a 16/17-year-old Gaby.
Gaby's first win was when she still was 15.
Only two of 12 matches were post-89.

So that means before post 89 before Shriver became a washed up singles has been they were 5-5. Thanks again.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Why "again"?

Shriver became "washed up" suddenly because Graf, Sabatini, Sanchez, Novotna were a new breed. Same as Mandlikova.
It is a fact that Evertilova's main opposition was thrashed by Graf at will.

yet Navratilova stayed ranked in the top 3 or 4 in the World until she was 36 and made a Wimbledon final at 37. Obviously Graf's opposition was not able to throw her under the bus, even in very old age.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Novotna, Sanchez, Sabatini in later years were tougher than Shriver, Mandlikova, though.



1987-89 Graf vs. Mandlikova 7-0 H2H (14-0 sets)
1987-89 Graf vs. Shriver 7-1 H2H (14-3 sets)

1990-93 Graf vs. Novotna 12-3 H2H (27-11 sets)
1990-93 Graf vs. Sabatini 8-8 H2H (20-19 sets)
1990-93 Graf vs. Sanchez 17-4 H2H (37-15 sets)

What did you say, dick.head?

According to you Novotna, Sabatini, and Sanchez only had success vs Graf since the poor brutalized women was in such a horrible slump caused by her fathers stripper friend, which was worse than a stabbing, a sisters murder, and every other imaginable experience, and could barely hold a racquet straight which is the only reason the incredibly lucky Seles won any slams and take #1. So why are you now saying Novotna, Sanchez, and Sabatini's so called worthless (according to you) wins show they were tougher players. Do you even remember your own arguments. You have been saying the fact Graf could lose so many times to a player like lowly Sabatini shows was a terrible slump she must have been in, and now it is proof she is stronger opposition, make up your mind, LOL!
 

suwanee4712

Professional
yet Navratilova stayed ranked in the top 3 or 4 in the World until she was 36 and made a Wimbledon final at 37. Obviously Graf's opposition was not able to throw her under the bus, even in very old age.

Yes I think its odd that given such tough competition that Steffi faced every one of Steffi's rivals suffered losses to an aged Navratilova that had lost 15 to 20 mph on her first serve and was a good two steps slower than she had been a decade earlier. That would include Steffi herself.

Some, like Novotna and Sabatini, were even losing an alarming amount 6-1 and 6-0 sets to Martina as well.

It's funny how he uses a certain player's age whether it be young or old matters to varying degrees depending upon how he wants that info. to be perceived.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
According to you Novotna, Sabatini, and Sanchez only had success vs Graf since the poor brutalized women was in such a horrible slump caused by her fathers stripper friend, which was worse than a stabbing, a sisters murder, and every other imaginable experience, ...

A blackmail scandal is a bad distraction as long as it lasts. And maybe some time after that.
A stabbing is bad as long as it lasts. And as long the wound needs to heal.
A half-sisters murder (whom you have left in the getto) is bad for many weeks even after the murder.

Sabatini did beat Graf several times even in the 80s. When she lost to Graf she usually won one of three sets. Mandlikova, Shriver were usually murdered by Graf in the late 80s.

So what do you not understand about "Sabatini was way tougher for Graf than Mandlikova/Shriver"? No one in their right mind would deny this.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Back to an earlier question from one poster on Conchita Martinez winning a French in the Evert era I would put it this year.

I do not believe Martinez would win a French in a year Evert played. Why? She has failed to ever produce a win that big in any slam, including on her beloved clay. She has never beaten Graf, Seles, Hingis, or a Williams in a slam. Her only win over Sanchez Vicario in a slam was in 2000 when both were far past their prime, so is nothing like if she had done it in 1991-1996 period. Her biggest wins in a slam are probably:

-37 year old Navratilova in the Wimbledon final
-slamless Davenport (but already ranked #3) in the 98 Australian Open semis
-15 year old Capriati in the round of 16 of the 91 French Open
-as mentioned fading Sanchez in the 2000 French Open semis
-Pierce in the 2nd round of the 99 French

Nothing that amazing really. She isnt mentally tough enough or fit enough to beat Evert in a slam, nor does she have enough of a game plan. She isnt willing to use her big forehand consistently which is the only thing she can hurt top players with. I could see her possibly beating Evert in some tier 1 clay court events, but not at the French Open. Even that isnt certain though as she has never beaten Graf or Seles on clay period (she has beaten everyone else of her era on clay). Maybe in a year that Evert lost before she played her she could have won. She seemed to play well vs Navratilova for whatever odd reason, even though all her matches were when Martina was well past her prime, a 4-1 head to head is still impressive. Or in a year like when Hana won in 81. However in a year Martina was in top form (she would not win the French in a year she wasnt) or the year Hana was playing well enough to beat Chris, I am pretty sure they would have enough to withstand a mentally weak and overly defensive player like Conchita.

I do think however if she played the French in the years Chris won it in 74, 75, 79, 80 with the same draws she could have won any of those. Or more specifically in the years Chris wasnt there in 76, 77, and 78. She wouldnt have won them all but she would have a pretty good shot in any of them IF Chris wasnt playing. However her wins would be viewed differently than Chris. Chris was considered the best on clay by far so nobody cared that the fields were depleted those years. In the case of Martinez winning those years people probably would have asked what if Goolagong had played from 74-77, what if an aging Richey had played those years, what if Austin or Goolagong had played in 79 or 80. Although she is a better clay courter than people like Barker and Ruzici who won during that period, unlike Chris, her wins would still come under question without a fully attended field. That is even with Navratilova not really a top clay courter yet, and Mandlikova not really on the scene that much yet in the 74-80 period.

Conchita also wouldnt have been playing more than maybe 1 of the years Chris didnt play since in her prime even with her boring game she is good enough she would always be a top 10 player probably, and back then top players wanted to play things like WTT for the money and it was more important than the French Open. Most likely she would have just played it once to snare it without Chris there , and then go back to WTT to make money and play fun exhibitions rather than play the then only partially important French Open like the rest of the top players.
 
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BTURNER

Legend
I agree with the above completely. Conchita just did not produce what she needed, to when she most needed to. That had everything to do with her mind, not her talent. She was the Mimi Jausovec of old.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
When she played Graf and Seles or even Sanchez she was beaten before the match even began. I was surprised how positive she always was when playing Martina, but then again all of the matches but 1 were were on clay, and all the matches but 1 were 34-37 year old Martina, so maybe that had something to do with it. She had the ability to use her variety and big forehand to do more things but rather chose to play mostly a retriever far beyond the baseline most of the time, yet didnt even bother getting into absolute top physical shape or doing the footwork drills to even maximize her play in that style.
 

juanparty

Hall of Fame
When she played Graf and Seles or even Sanchez she was beaten before the match even began. I was surprised how positive she always was when playing Martina, but then again all of the matches but 1 were were on clay, and all the matches but 1 were 34-37 year old Martina, so maybe that had something to do with it. She had the ability to use her variety and big forehand to do more things but rather chose to play mostly a retriever far beyond the baseline most of the time, yet didnt even bother getting into absolute top physical shape or doing the footwork drills to even maximize her play in that style.

yeah!!!!! i remember
 
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