Fear to swing freely not to lose control

Curious

G.O.A.T.
One of the biggest issues at lower levels of tennis. As Tomaz mentions in this excellent video, playing matches too early in your tennis development is probably the biggest factor.
It's quite hard to accept that guiding/pushing with the arm to gain control results in lack of control.
It would be great to hear from players that managed to get rid of this and moved to higher levels as a result.
How did you do it?


 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
By the way an important sign that you're not swinging freely but rather pushing with the arm is that the arm and the racket swing at the same speed! Because of that tight swing, the racket never whips through faster than your arm.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I think that the quicker a coach or mentor can teach a player to generate topspin swings on both wings and also to generate spin on serves, the sooner the student will be ready to play matches in a long-term development program. You’ll have to learn to use your body coil, use leg drive to start your swing low, have full extension with arms to make early contact before you can generate appreciable topspin on ground strokes. When a player can hit out with a somewhat flat trajectory (3-6 feet over the net with spin and not no-spin lobs) and hit the ball deep (within 5-6 feet from baseline) for 3-4 shots without missing, they might be ready to play matches and not be afraid to swing out. Key is stop them every time they try to use a bunt swing or a lob swing during practice rallies and praise them when they hit deep by swinging properly using topspin. You also have to teach proper footwork in terms of which foot to stop with, how much space you need from the ball, how to change direction and recover between shots etc. - bunters will stop too close to the ball and you have to force students to stop further away and hit with extended arms.

I constantly used to tell my wife and kids when I taught them that tennis is a ‘rotational sport‘ and also a ‘sideways sport’ to encourage them to use their body and I would also yell out ‘lag’ and ‘extension’ constantly on groundstrokes. The improvement started happening more rapidly only after I could convince them to swing out freely to hit deep targets with extended arms - then you can teach spacing/swing adjustments to generate spin and get control. As long as they were afraid to swing freely and hit hard, it was tough to teach them a proper swing as it is too easy to bunt and moonball to get control. That is just my experience from teaching my family and may not be the universal path for development.

Similarly on the serve, the student should be taught to land the serve in the box without too many DFs by using spin and not low pace before they are ready for match play. Encourage them from the start to have a continental grip as it is not easy to land the serve inside the box without spin with a continental grip whereas with a pancake grip, you can lob the ball into the box at low pace with no spin. To teach spin, again stressing body rotation to engage the legs and hips is a key for the student to learn spin.

With some students, it might be a couple of hundred hours of purposeful practice before they get the hang of spin strokes/serves and if they play 4-5 times a week, it might take about 6 months before they are ready to play matches. If they are accomplished at other ball sports, they might pick it up faster as they will know that they have to use their body to generate power. I think if you teach small kids, you can let them play matches earlier as they will grow into hitting harder, but if adults learn bad technique (bunts/moonballs/pancake grip serves) by playing matches too soon, their ceiling might permanently be set too low. My daughter gave up tennis before playing matches as she lost interest, my son took about 3-4 months before feeling ready to play matches and my wife took about 6-8 months.
 
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MoxMonkey

Semi-Pro
By the way an important sign that you're not swinging freely but rather pushing with the arm is that the arm and the racket swing at the same speed! Because of that tight swing, the racket never whips through faster than your arm.
Yeah. I call this trying to steer the ball. It results in a weaker shot that has less spin and will often hit into the net and/or pull the ball wide.
 

AnyPUG

Hall of Fame
How to get over fear? Just ONE word - TRUST.
Trust that the correct way to play is not by slowing down, but by intentionally going after the ball to brush up.
In due course(many months or couple of years), we will develop feeling for spacing, body orientation and swing path. So, back to trust
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I think that the quicker a coach or mentor can teach a player to generate topspin swings on both wings and also to generate spin on serves, the sooner the student will be ready to play matches in a long-term development program. You’ll have to learn to use your body coil, use leg drive to start your swing low, have full extension with arms to make early contact before you can generate appreciable topspin on ground strokes. When a player can hit out with a somewhat flat trajectory (3-6 feet over the net with spin and not no-spin lobs) and hit the ball deep (within 5-6 feet from baseline) for 3-4 shots without missing, they might be ready to play matches and not be afraid to swing out. Key is stop them every time they try to use a bunt swing or a lob swing during practice rallies and praise them when they hit deep by swinging properly using topspin. You also have to teach proper footwork in terms of which foot to stop with, how much space you need from the ball, how to change direction and recover between shots etc. - bunters will stop too close to the ball and you have to force students to stop further away and hit with extended arms.

I constantly used to tell my wife and kids when I taught them that tennis is a rotational sport to encourage them to use their body and I also used to yell out ‘lag’ and ‘extension’ constantly on groundstrokes. The improvement started happening more rapidly only after I could convince them to swing out freely to hit deep targets with extended arms - then you can teach spacing/swing adjustments to generate spin and get control. As long as they were afraid to swing freely and hit hard, it was tough to teach them a proper swing as it is too easy to bunt and moonball to get control. That is just my experience from teaching my family and may not be the universal path for development.

Similarly on the serve, the student should be taught to land the serve in the box without too many DFs by using spin and not low pace before they are ready for match play. Encourage them from the start to have a continental grip as it is not easy to land the serve inside the box without spin with a continental grip whereas with a pancake grip, you can lob the ball into the box at low pace with no spin. To teach spin, again stressing body rotation to engage the legs and hips is a key for the student to learn spin.

With some students, it might be a couple of hundred hours of purposeful practice before they get the hang of spin strokes/serves and if they play 4-5 times a week, it might take about 6 months before they are ready to play matches. If they are accomplished at other ball sports, they might pick it up faster as they will know that they have to use their body to generate power. I think if you teach small kids, you can let them play matches earlier as they will grow into hitting harder, but if adults learn bad technique (bunts/moonballs/pancake grip serves) by playing matches too soon, their ceiling might permanently be set too low. My daughter gave up tennis before playing matches as she lost interest, my son took about 3-4 months before feeling ready to play matches and my wife took about 6-8 months.
You mostly touched on the skills part. I'm sure there's the mental side as well. For example I can definitely do what you've described: hitting 3-4 balls in a row with spin and pace without bunting or lobbing but still struggle doing the same in matches.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
How to get over fear? Just ONE word - TRUST.
Trust that the correct way to play is not by slowing down, but by intentionally going after the ball to brush up.
In due course(many months or couple of years), we will develop feeling for spacing, body orientation and swing path. So, back to trust
Exactly. Tomaz in the video mentions that people get so frustrated at missing a ball, any time, every time. He says accept that you'll miss but as you say you should still have the trust that the right way will work: swing fast low to high and you'll hit a quality shot.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
How to get over fear? Just ONE word - TRUST.
Trust that the correct way to play is not by slowing down, but by intentionally going after the ball to brush up.
In due course(many months or couple of years), we will develop feeling for spacing, body orientation and swing path. So, back to trust
Agree. With my son and wife, I had to remind them constantly during practice that they were making more unforced errors when they bunt or moonball especially on the run rather than when they tried a topspin swing and then, they slowly got the confidence to swing out freely using body coil and full extension all the time.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Exactly. Tomaz in the video mentions that people get so frustrated at missing a ball, any time, every time. He says accept that you'll miss but as you say you should still have the trust that the right way will work: swing fast low to high and you'll hit a quality shot.
And try an exceptional frame man like the first one in my sig :) Not a Babs.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
You mostly touched on the skills part. I'm sure there's the mental side as well. For example I can definitely do what you've described: hitting 3-4 balls in a row with spin and pace without bunting or lobbing but still struggle doing the same in matches.

Tennis is very much a technique sport and you have to develop that foundation first - but, at some point you have to trust your technique and play confidently in matches. Play more matches and I am sure you will get more confident to use your technique properly. Read book like ‘Smart Tennis’ by Dr.John Murray and ‘Think to Win’ by Dr. Allen Fox also. There is no substitute to matchplay to learn to win matches.

As soon as you realize that you make more unforced errors when you bunt or moon ball especially when you run more than a couple of steps laterally or up/down, you’ll feel more compelled to take a proper swing.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
And try an exceptional frame man like the first one in my sig :) Not a Babs.
Improving my serve is crucial for me as that's my most promising shot and apparently the most important shot in tennis. The only thing I'm lucky about tennis.:)
And I serve best with a pure aero.
 
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socallefty

G.O.A.T.
And try an exceptional frame man like the first one in my sig :) Not a Babs.
This is exactly the kind of post which triggered this diatribe a few months ago. I’m a a hardcore Babolat user, but not the stiff models like the Drive or Aero.

It is a myth perpetuated on this forum that all Babolat racquets are bad. I went through 3 major racquet demo trial sessions in the last twenty years trying 12 oz racquets from all different brands - picked the Pure Control (2000), AeroStorm Tour GT (2011), Pure Strike Tour (2014). In the first two trials of 10-15 racquets, I was truly brand-agnostic and picked the racquet that felt best to me. By 2014, I was brand-loyal and more prone to picking Babolat if it suited my needs. When I bought Babolat in 2000, the brand was unknown for racquets in California and I was one of the first adopters.

Since Babolat makes two highly popular tweeners (Drive, Aero) with high stiffness, people just associate their brand with those racquets. In reality, they have always made heavy, thin beam, flexible/medium stiff players racquets also like the Pure Control, AeroPro Control, Pure Storm Tour, Aero Storm Tour, Pure Strike Tour etc. Every brand makes light/thickbeam/stiff brands for beginners along with heavy/flexible racquets, but only Babolat is treated on this forum as if they make only thickbeam/stiff racquets. There are so many Babolat-endorsed pro players, college players and junior players playing tennis at an advanced level invariably with poly. If one of them gets injured, there is always hype on this forum about Babolat being responsible. Meanwhile, guys like Tsitsipas, Djokovic, Del Porto get wrist/arm injuries and no one blames their racquet brand. According to this link, “Venus Williams, Bjorn Borg, Aleksandra Wozniak, Andy Murray and Juan Martin Del Potro have all suffered from tennis elbow”.


The reason Babolat is so popular and in 25 years has become one of the top two or three best selling racquet companies (they made only gut strings before that for tennis) is because their racquets always have a bigger sweet spot and more comfort for a particular stiffness than comparable brands. Other racquets with stiffness RA at 70-72 like the Pure Drive/Pure Aero are almost unplayable from a comfort standpoint and that’s why Babolat has dominated that niche. I wouldn’t play with those racquets as they are too powerful, but I find the same big sweet spot with their 12 oz, more flexible players racquets also throughout the last two decades. I have played with their 12 oz racquets with stiffness in 65-68 RA range while other heavy racquets with stiffness in that range feel more uncomfortable for me - with other brands, I have to go down to low-sixties RA for comparable comfort and then I miss the Babolat power on serves.

I have had tennis elbow pain twice and never with any Babolat - once in the late Nineties with a Head Ti S2 and the other when I fooled around with a Volkl VSense 10 (325) 4 years ago both strung with gut in the high-fifties. I don’t go around trashing those brands because I know that they make many other solid racquets also. The S2 was wrong for my game and I made the wrong choice after a break from tennis for a decade - that’s when I started learning about racquets and joined this forum for the first time in 1999. I still don’t know why the Volk was bad for me as the specs fit my sweet spot - it also injured my friend who tried it a couple of times and so, I sold it quickly. Check the vibration frequency of racquets before you buy them as it correlates to comfort quite well - don’t believe other misinformation on this forum about brands as there is a herd mentality in general. So many hard rules and urban myths on here - ‘Good players don’t play with lighter racquets’, ‘Poly will cause injury always for older players’, ‘Babolat is bad’, ‘Don’t hybrid with shaped polys as it is like a knife cutting through butter’, ‘If you get tennis elbow, you have lousy technique’, ‘If you don’t break poly within 10 hours, you are no good’, blah, blah, blah!

Most players get tennis elbow issues because they string poly over 50 lbs and then play with it till they break it. The problem is that most polys go dead within 10-15 hours and transmit a lot of vibrations to the arm whatever racquet you play with (stiffer is worse of course) - so, if you don‘t break it close to that time frame, you will get injured. That’s why beginners and intermediates get injured by poly more than very advanced players who might even play at higher tensions - the advanced guys break the poly before it goes dead and becomes a health hazard.

My joke is that on this forum when people get tennis elbow issues from playing with dead poly, they react in two different ways.

- If their racquet is a Babolat, they blame the racquet and come and post here that Babolat makes junk.
- If they play with Head, Wilson, Volkl or Yonex, they blame the strings and go buy another racquet from the same brand.

In real life at my club, people get injured with all kinds of racquets and in 90% of the cases, they played with dead poly for too long. Lastly, you choose a racquet, string and tension combination that works for your game and you can always mix and match stiff racquets, soft racquets, stiff strings, soft strings, hybrids, high tensions, low tensions etc. till you find something that works great. I am not particularly hung up anymore on conducting major racquet trials and string experiments like I used to do when I was younger. When you play 500-700 hours a year like I do, I don’t need to listen to other subjective opinions and I can mix and match till I find what I like - just want to have fun, hopefully win a lot and play daily without injuries.
 

AnyPUG

Hall of Fame
You mostly touched on the skills part. I'm sure there's the mental side as well. For example I can definitely do what you've described: hitting 3-4 balls in a row with spin and pace without bunting or lobbing but still struggle doing the same in matches.

I agree 100%. It's mostly mental. Once you "get" what needs to be done, body parts figure out the most basic elements of the shot. And later on, fine tune for the rest of the playing career
 

ohplease

Professional
For me, what helped was realizing that it's counterintuitive to relax into shots. Most people (me included) want to do just the opposite, where they instead squeeze or clench into and through the ball - especially under match pressure.

I don't remember where I saw it, but a nice check is whether or not your grip or jaw are relaxed. If you're all clenched up and white-knuckling the racket into the ball, there's little chance you're also swinging freely. Look at the levels of tension in the linked video - the first guy (5:45) is super wound up at contact. This in contrast to the second guy (9:10) who's just much, much looser all around
 
One of the biggest issues at lower levels of tennis. As Tomaz mentions in this excellent video, playing matches too early in your tennis development is probably the biggest factor.
It's quite hard to accept that guiding/pushing with the arm to gain control results in lack of control.
It would be great to hear from players that managed to get rid of this and moved to higher levels as a result.
How did you do it?


You trust the practice you've been doing to make the strokes you want to make and you trust your ability to sense what you're doing with the racquet. You have to embrace control at a higher order level, in other words, knowing that this will give you the control in the moment you are afraid of losing. Calming breath exercises are a good way of helping your mind reach this state because often the weak thinking you are trying to avoid is fueled by panic and panic itself is fueled by unhealthy agitated breathing.
 
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user92626

G.O.A.T.
You mostly touched on the skills part. I'm sure there's the mental side as well. For example I can definitely do what you've described: hitting 3-4 balls in a row with spin and pace without bunting or lobbing but still struggle doing the same in matches.
You're not hitting the same 3-4 balls between practice and matches. The 3-4 balls in matches are different. They place differently and they force you to move. You're not getting those characteristics in practice.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
You're not hitting the same 3-4 balls between practice and matches. The 3-4 balls in matches are different. They place differently and they force you to move. You're not getting those characteristics in practice.
I’m not hitting that cooperatively in practice, only while warning up. But you’re right the randomness of match balls is a different category. The whole idea in this thread is how do we get rid of guiding, steering type of swings. That’s just a terrible habit.
 
I’m not hitting that cooperatively in practice, only while warning up. But you’re right the randomness of match balls is a different category. The whole idea in this thread is how do we get rid of guiding, steering type of swings. That’s just a terrible habit.
Did you read what I said or was it too boring of an answer?
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I thought this would be worth noting. Not steering or guiding with the arm doesn't necessarily mean fast/hard swinging. It just means smooth free swinging with the whole body ( as opposed to arming)!!
Exactly like this. He's not swinging fast at all. I know it's the warm up in practice but that's still the idea.

 

AnyPUG

Hall of Fame
I thought this would be worth noting. Not steering or guiding with the arm doesn't necessarily mean fast/hard swinging. It just means smooth free swinging with the whole body ( as opposed to arming)!!
Exactly like this. He's not swinging fast at all. I know it's the warm up in practice but that's still the idea.


What's your MPH/KPH estimate on forehands here?
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
What's your MPH/KPH estimate on forehands here?
Balls might be fast. The swing not that much especially at the beginning. Let’s not forget, Federer engages his whole body perfectly and also hits the sweet spot, so yes balls are probably quite fast despite his deceiving effortlessness.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Balls might be fast. The swing not that much especially at the beginning. Let’s not forget, Federer engages his whole body perfectly and also hits the sweet spot, so yes balls are probably quite fast despite his deceiving effortlessness.
Timming too.
 
I thought this would be worth noting. Not steering or guiding with the arm doesn't necessarily mean fast/hard swinging. It just means smooth free swinging with the whole body ( as opposed to arming)!!
Exactly like this. He's not swinging fast at all. I know it's the warm up in practice but that's still the idea.

Remember a tennis swing is about timing a sequence of accelerations not generating raw power.
 
‘Raw power’, exactly. That’s the one the arm does if body is not engaged.
Of course the arm can do the correct motion with the body unengaged as long as the person swinging recognizes they are operating with that limitation. In fact people should probably be doing that more frequently with shadow swings because it allows them to focus on the ISR action and generally complex series of motions go better as a while when the body is also allowed to practice each component in isolation.
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
I thought this would be worth noting. Not steering or guiding with the arm doesn't necessarily mean fast/hard swinging. It just means smooth free swinging with the whole body ( as opposed to arming)!!
Exactly like this. He's not swinging fast at all. I know it's the warm up in practice but that's still the idea.

You do realize that RF uses “body rotation” less than almost anyone on tour and therefore “arms” the ball more than anyone on tour. True on the bh as well but I’ll focus on the fh. The first pic below shows him at full follow through. Shoulders still parallel to the baseline. Only relaxing after the stroke makes his upper body rotate further (pic 2). That extra rotation has nothing to do with his stroke unlike a typical ATP bent-arm forehand, which, because of the way the hand is brought to contact, has the shoulder continue to drive forward through contact. In any type of fh the rotation slows to allow the hand to accelerate, but on RF’s straight arm forehand it is more critical to arrest the rotation.
Quit watching video.

 
I was thinking just the opposite. He’s right at the top maybe just behind Djokovic in that regard.
Yeah you don't generate an elite forehand without using the power base correctly. Actually now that I think about it I imagine a huge underdiagnosed problem among rec players who struggle with forehand consistency is issues with core strength. Modern office jobs are huge risk factors for developing issues here.
 

Dragy

Legend
I was thinking just the opposite. He’s right at the top maybe just behind Djokovic in that regard.
@ballmachineguy it actually varies rather strongly depending on expect stroke execution. When they apply power fade shots, mostly used as inside-out drives, they rotate more by impact. Federer as well: torso facing the alley while his target is on the opposite side of the court, I/O:
ax5wuvb9ofejecx4q4tj.jpg
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
@ballmachineguy it actually varies rather strongly depending on expect stroke execution. When they apply power fade shots, mostly used as inside-out drives, they rotate more by impact. Federer as well: torso facing the alley while his target is on the opposite side of the court, I/O:
ax5wuvb9ofejecx4q4tj.jpg
Yeah, of course, just like a serve, your upper body would rotate to the point dictated by where you are aiming your hand. In the pics I used he just happened to be hitting directly back to returner directly across the net from him so I used parallel to the baseline for reference. To hit the ball with efficient power by sending the hand at top speed the upper body completely stops rotating to achieve that speed. A typical bent arm fh would lack some power and probably depth control should the hitter attempt to do the same with the upper body (which does happen with running fhs by a bent arm player). It is just a difference with the way the racquet is brought to contact between bent and straight arm techniques. The amount of power provided by driving the hitting side shoulder to contact is much greater using bent arm technique. Were you to put Fed and Djoker at the baseline and told both to hit fhs without allowing the upper body to rotate at all either away or toward the target, Fed would would be able to hit pretty decent shots while Djoker would be a disaster.
 
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