For once and for all: closed or square racq face?

[kickingbird]

Hi everyone, need your input on this one. I just haven't been able to get a definitive answer (maybe there isn't one).

On groundstrokes and volleys, is it ideal for you to contact the ball with a square/vertical face??? By square/vertical I mean, the strings meet the ball right in the middle of it:

l
l
l O <---- incoming ball
l
l

I feel that if you can hit the ball cleanly, the ball will SHOOT. There is no energy loss, and it feels great. HOWEVER, when playing against the hard hitters, one mistake and the ball goes flying.

So it is advisable to slightly close the face when playing hard hitters? What about when finishing off short balls? What if you want to hit angles?

I am just so confused as to when I should be closing the face and when I should be hitting flat on.

Strangely enough the answer I get from all the good players I ask is: 'It's natural, I don't think about it'. Fair enough.

My general thought is that to hit a ball with lots of topspin and pace, you have to hit with a slighly closed face, and swing low to high. The disadvantage is that sometimes the ball kind of fizzles, it has lots of spin on it but no pace and dies around the middle of the court.

Also another question. A hard question, actually. Assume a square face on contact. Is it possible to change the amount of lift you give the ball, and the amount of spin you apply on the ball, just by altering the swing path of the racquet? eg. what would I do if I wanted more spin, but less net clearance? What if I wanted a lot of net clearance, but not much spin? Is it possible with a square face on contact?

Please address as many issues as you can raised in this post, it will help me greatly!!!

 

[kickingbird]

Also, what about on rising shots? What about on drive volleys? Square or closed???

 

[OverHead]

Raquet face will be OPEN upon contact. Ground strokes and volleys.

Upward motion of the raquet when imparting topspin is not enough to give the ball enough loft to get over the net on ground strokes. Face must be open at least slightly.

You also open the face when volleying for some backspin to make the ball bite into the court.

If you are close to the net then you could hit with perpendicular or closed face. Like hitting down on a high volley.

 

[winks]

Raquet face will be OPEN upon contact. Ground strokes and volleys.

Upward motion of the raquet when imparting topspin is not enough to give the ball enough loft to get over the net on ground strokes. Face must be open at least slightly....

Definately not true for all groundstrokes, especially when you start playing with more topspin/pace. There are cases when you are hitting the ball "on the rise" and with a lot of topspin you will need to close the racquet face slightly.....

But as mentioned earlier, getting the right the angle of the racquet face is something that should come naturally after a lot of practice. It will vary a lot depending on the speed/spin of the oncoming ball, where you are and what kind of shot you want to return.

 

[kickingbird]

Interesting comments, although it sounds bizzare that the racquet face might have to be open on contact, I have seen funny photos before like the Agassi backhand drive, which seemed to be very open just after contact with the ball... most people's racquets close after contact, like the Davydenko one. Hmmm?

What would be really nice to see is a profile view of a photo of a closed racquet face, when the strings have come into contact with the ball.

I bet there is some secret that these pros know that we don't.

More comments please!

 

[winks]

...What would be really nice to see is a profile view of a photo of a closed racquet face, when the strings have come into contact with the ball...

I think the pictures I posted pretty much prove the racquet face can be closed (i.e. angled towards the ground) even the the actual timing of the pictures appear to be a few milliseconds after impact.

Those were the best I could find in a minute or two of searching. I am absolutely sure there are many pics out there illustrating a closed racquet face at impact, it's just not easy to find them.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

kickingbird,
you should read this in my posting
Forehand Issues
in the Sticky thread at the top of this forum:

How do they hit their forehand with a so close racquet face? (see pic inside)
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=44538

a very good thread.

As well, check Fed's slow-mo clip in the Sticky.

 

[winks]

How do they hit their forehand with a so close racquet face? (see pic inside)
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=44538

a very good thread.

That is a very good thread. In particular I like paulfreda's post #68 (2nd part) and kevhen #69 ("the vertical racquet face is a myth"...). And finally, here's a pic from the that thread that shows at closed racquet face on impact. If this guy does it, it must be work...

 

[Marius_Hancu]

Federer's and Hewitt's FH (high-speed camera clip):
http://www.araf72.dsl.pipex.com/1000FPS.mpg

Fed's racket more inclined, Hew's practically vertical, in these particular shots.
It really depends on what they are trying to achieve in that instance, but also on their general technique.

 

[Rickson]

There's nothing wrong with a closed face except on very low balls.

 

[FiveO]

Federer's and Hewitt's FH (high-speed camera clip):
http://www.araf72.dsl.pipex.com/1000FPS.mpg

Fed's racket more inclined, Hew's practically vertical, in these particular shots.
It really depends on what they are trying to achieve in that instance, but also on their general technique.

Very important point. Firstly, its situational. It is not an "always" thing.

Secondly, as much as most amateurs WISH they could, most do not generate enough 'controlled' racquet head speed most pros do, let alone Federer. When commentators marvel at the racquet head speed Fed generates on his fh, they are doing so in comparison to HIS fellow pros, not recreational amateurs.

Hitting with a closed face is done. Is it done on every shot, even by Fed? No. Even he calls on it situationally.

Will some amateurs be able perform it properly, in terms of technique and situation? A few.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

The angle of the racket face cannot be separated from the trajectory of the racket head. I'd suggest some of you might want to review this reference (mentioned in another thread too:

The Development of Racquet Speed
Prof. Bruce Elliott

http://www.stms.nl/december2003/default.htm
(select from the contents)

One of the pertinent results:
-----------
The following racket trajectories are typical for advanced players preparing for, and then hitting through the impact zone of groundstrokes.

* Flat stroke »25-30°
* Topspin stroke »35-45°
* Topspin lob »50-70°
----------

 

[Mahboob Khan]

Eastern grip players tend to hit with vertical racket face, and western grip players might close it a bit, but the most important thing is the role of the wrist-forearm whereby top players modify their swings. This illustrates as to why their rackets finish below their opposite shoulder .. this because of the lifting and pressing they achieve via windwhield wiper swings.

On normal waist to chest high volleys the racket face is slightly open to impart underspin; on higher volleys the racket head might be square or slightly close.

However, one thing is for sure that for normal topspin ground strokes the racket head is NOT open, and for normal volleys the racket head is NOT close!

 

[kevhen]

I hit mine with a pretty square face on both sides when hitting topspin, but the harder you and your opponent hit and more extreme grip that you use, you will likely want to close it more especially on high balls. I use open face on slice....

 

[Mahboob Khan]

I hit mine with a pretty square face on both sides when hitting topspin, but the harder you and your opponent hit and more extreme grip that you use, you will likely want to close it more especially on high balls. I use open face on slice....

Well said, on slice approach shots the racket face is slightly tilted back .. may be 45 degree!

On higher balls you pronate a bit to bring them down in the court, and that closes the racket face a bit. I do not make any effort to close it, it might happen like that.

 

[Rickson]

Topspin is achievable with a closed face, square face, or an open face. Slice on the other hand, is impossible to hit with a closed face so if you're into topspin, don't worry about having a slightly closed face. If you want to slice and dice, the closed face is not for you.

 

[x Southpaw x]

I know special situations call for open and close racket faces... but I vote for square face whenever possible for consistency reasons - unless you have that touch/placement mastery.

 

[kickingbird]

Thanks for the input and the link, I read through it and although it was helpful I still have some questions. Get ready to be confused big time.

Mahboob, 45 degree angle on a slice?! I believe you can do this off a self-fed ball, but against a ball that is coming at you with some pace, I don't think this is possible even with an extreme high to low swing... the ball would pop up, won't it?

OK back to topspin.

When I try and hit the ball with a vertical racq face, it feels good, and the ball travels... graciously...? sorry I do not know how to describe it, the ball just flies off the strings cleanly, with no energy wasted. It's a well controlled ball and has decent pace on it when I hit with about 50% racquet head speed (maybe less, maybe more, can't say for sure). The problem is when I try and speed up the swing, the ball tends to fly long if I don't achieve the correct combination of

1) racquet face angle on contact,
2) degree of low to high swing
3) racquet head speed

I am constantly mixing myself up between degree of low to high, degree of racq face angle, and the speed I swing my racquet. What is the correct combination I should be aiming for most of the time???

So see if you can answer this: Is it possible to hit a ball with a vertical racquet face, that has lots of spin (margin for error), clears the net by a generous margin, and produces a nice pronounced arc with good pace???

Tell me what you do with your swing during these situations:

i) rally ball- trying to keep the ball in play (off a low ball, mid ball, and high ball). For me it would be

1) slightly closed face (about the same for all types of balls)
2) pronounced low to high swing (most for low balls, least for high balls)
3) 80% RHS

Comment: The result will be a ball with good pace, good spin, good depth, good marjin for error, and I would be able to hit this ball consistenly, but it will be hard to hit a winner from the baseline with this kind of shot against most good players. In terms of feel, it feels like I am only just scraping the ball during the middle of my swing.

ii) winner ball - trying to finish off the point (off a low ball, mid ball, high ball)

For me,

1) Consciously trying to hit above the centre of the ball: the top of the ball, to avoid giving it too much lift. (off all except high)
2) on low balls, an emphasised low to high. on Mid balls, about a 20-30 degree lift. On high ballls, I like to hit flat, down on the ball.
3) 90-95% RHS

Comment: It feels like I am 'scraping' the ball because of the closed face contacting the top half of the ball, but I am trying to hit FORWARD at the same time for pace. Produces a strange feeling when I try and hit fast, spin loaded balls. I sometimes close the face TOO much resulting in a heavily-spun-but-lacking-pace shot. Please tell me you've all had this Experience before.

iii) Hitting on the rise. Amazingly gives me the best control, because most elements stay the same. ie. I try and hit them all at confortable, 'go for a winner' height (around shoulder height). I always go for winners off these shots.

1) Slightly closed
2) Very 'flat' stroke, not much low to high at all.
3) 90-95% RHS

Comment: This for me is a 'flat shot' with spin. I perceive that the spin is coming from the closed racquet face, the speed from the horizontal swing + the opponent's pace. Often feels good.

Hard to perceive if there is actually a lot of spin on the ball though... because it feels like I am closing the face lots, but the ball travels in a straight line almost! Not a curvy path at all... what do you think? Do rising shots have lots of spin on them???

I think my main problem is this, as I've stated before:

I am getting mixed up finding the correct combination of 1) degree of racquet angle, 2) degree of low to high swing, 3) racquet head speed.

HELP!!! I want to be able to confidently control my shots. Actually, if someone told me to 'just keep the ball in play', I could do it. I would tell my self, mostly swing upwards, and have thin contact with the ball. But when it comes to trying to hit winners, which I love doing, I get all mixed up.

The dilenma is, it feels best when you can hit the ball w/ a vertical racq face, but try and hit it hard and it will go out. Try and hit it with spin and it will GO TOO HIGH. You have to close the face a little and sacrifice feel...

Congratulations if you came down this far, I hope I haven't ruined your day... and thank you for any input/comments!!!

 

[gokou703]

Mahboob, 45 degree angle on a slice?! I believe you can do this off a self-fed ball, but against a ball that is coming at you with some pace, I don't think this is possible even with an extreme high to low swing... the ball would pop up, won't it?

QUOTE]

slicing the ball with the racket face at 45 degrees is more than possible. especially if your grip is slightly more of a eastern forehand grip than a continental. when i use this grip on my backhand slices my racket face would be quite open. it would produce very deep shot, and it is extremely consistent since there is a lot less cutting of the ball is needed. try it out with your shoulder closed to the court. extremely effective on approach shots and even against shots hit with pace. i use this shot on 80% of my slices, and use a more continental (closed face) grip when i'm focusing on keeping the ball slightly lower and faster. my coach/boss teaches this technique. a lot less unorthodox than it may seem if you watch many of the clay courters that have a great feel and touch.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

So see if you can answer this: Is it possible to hit a ball with a vertical racquet face, that has lots of spin (margin for error), clears the net by a generous margin, and produces a nice pronounced arc with good pace???
!

of course it is. this is the traditional method.

all the answers are in the original thread which I pointed to, you just have to do the work.

just get out there and experiment by yourself, self-feed lots of balls to your sides, run to them and attack them with various combinations. then you'll settle to the best for yourself.

closing the racket face JUST A BIT is recommended especially if you are capable of generating a lot of racket head speed, which you probably aren't anyway, and want to make sure you keep the ball in play or produce more topspin

 

[livthemoment]

question: is it not simply a question of angles and angular momentum?
If you hit a ball with a closed face then you must hit below the center plane of the ball (given the center plane is the plane parallel with the ground) with an upward motion to cancel the affects of the closed(downward facing) racquet head.
This of course does not include ball compression and rotation of the ball hit. and since, an opponents topspin hit striking your racquet face will make the ball want to rebound off the racquet in a upward vertical direction for which a closed racquet face can compensate for. and

 

[kevhen]

You can have a very open face on the slice and return a low shot against a hard incoming shot just by driving through the ball. I don't ever recall popping the ball up. It's the angle of the face that determines how much backspin gets added to the ball but the swing path determines the direction if you swing through the ball.

 

[livthemoment]

You can have a very open face on the slice and return a low shot against a hard incoming shot just by driving through the ball. I don't ever recall popping the ball up. It's the angle of the face that determines how much backspin gets added to the ball but the swing path determines the direction if you swing through the ball.

That is because of the of the angle of the swing, you swing down because you compensate for the open face which wants to hit the ball up.
If you ever played table tennis or billiards, all of these concepts are rather exagerated and obvious. Ever notice how you have to compensate if your opponent hits a slice vs. topspin shot. A slice shot translates to additional topspin when you hit.
Another way to try this, is have a friend hit you a heavy topspin shot..hold your racquet with a square face and swing on a strictly horizontal path and catch the ball as it comes down after the bounce. See if the ball bounces off the racquet going up or down. Then repeat with your friend hitting a heavy slice shot.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

It's the angle of the face that determines how much backspin gets added to the ball but the swing path determines the direction if you swing through the ball.

Kevhen,

You're trying but this is not good advice nor is it correct. It isn't the angle of the racket face that "determines" how "much" backspin is applied to the ball, it is the speed of the racket swing along with the downward or "flat" path of the swing motion. Motion is what creates spin.

If I slowed everything down to nothing and placed my racket face up (very open) on a table and put a ball in the middle of the strings - the ball would not spin. It would sit there and do nothing. However, once I slide the racket underneath the ball in any direction the ball would roll around.

It is the speed of the swing and the swing path working together that creates spin.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

question: is it not simply a question of angles and angular momentum?
If you hit a ball with a closed face then you must hit below the center plane of the ball (given the center plane is the plane parallel with the ground) with an upward motion to cancel the affects of the closed(downward facing) racquet head.

Very good!

This of course does not include ball compression and rotation of the ball hit. and since, an opponents topspin hit striking your racquet face will make the ball want to rebound off the racquet in a vertical direction for which a closed racquet face can compensate for. and

Yes, I can see what you are saying but on the "vertical direction" that can mean up or down. Wouldn't topspin make the ball bounce upward rather than downward off the strings???

 

[livthemoment]

Bill, i meant vertically upward, i will make that change in the post.

thanks

 

[kevhen]

Yes, you are right Bill, it's the angle of the racquet head plus the direction of the motion of the racquet that creates the spin. The more open the head and the more downward the swing, the more spin, although at some point it becomes very difficult to strike the ball, if your head is open past 45 degrees and your downswing is steeper than that same angle. My racquet head is probably open about 30 degrees with a 20 degree downswing.. If I want more spin I will keep the head still at around 30 degrees but spin with a faster and steeper downswing like 40 degrees. You have to swing fast to keep the ball going forward fast enough so that it's not a sitter. The reason to add more spin is to make for a very difficult volley for your opponent since you can generate a ton of spin with a good slice forehand.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

Kevhen,
You're trying but this is not good advice nor is it correct. It isn't the angle of the racket face that "determines" how "much" backspin is applied to the ball, it is the speed of the racket swing along with the downward or "flat" path of the swing motion. Motion is what creates spin.

BB - Are you very sure you are correct about this? I'd like to see a reference if you have one.
If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that with a given swing path and racquet speed, the amount of backspin will be equal regardless of the angle of the open racquet face?

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Bill, i meant vertically upward, i will make that change in the post.

thanks

Got it thanks! Which leads into volleying skills and handling various spins being thrown at you.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

BB - Are you very sure you are correct about this? I'd like to see a reference if you have one.
If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that with a given swing path and racquet speed, the amount of backspin will be equal regardless of the angle of the open racquet face?

LOL, Kevhen, for you buddy, I am not going to do any extra work to help you learn. You have a knack for saying wierd things and packaging them as "tips". Why don't you learn something and look it up yourself. Then get back to us with your findings.

What I am saying is the faster you swing the faster the ball will spin. If I have an open racket face and strike the ball in a certain spot with a certain racket path slowly, the revs of the spin on the ball will be slower then if all things are equal and I struck the ball faster.

It is much like a spinning top. If I pull the string slow, guess what? The top spins slower. If I pull the string fast, guess what? The top spins faster.

This is also the reason why it is important to have fast racket head speed for the second serve!

 

[kevhen]

Yes, you are right Bill, it is the racquet head speed that creates the amount of spin although the more open the face the more spin and less power will be applied to the ball.

 

[AngeloDS]

I always thought on my heavy topspin forehand, I was hitting all-the-way through closed. But when I had video taken of my forehand and slowed down, for like half of a second, when I make contact with the ball my racquet face is open and then imediately goes closed.

 

[SageOfDeath]

I always thought on my heavy topspin forehand, I was hitting all-the-way through closed. But when I had video taken of my forehand and slowed down, for like half of a second, when I make contact with the ball my racquet face is open and then imediately goes closed.

Isn't that the point of a closed racquet face? So it is more stable than having a perfectly square racquet head?

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Yes, you are right Bill, it is the racquet head speed that creates the amount of spin although the more open the face the more spin and less power will be applied to the ball.

Wait I don't get it. You say I am right and then say if the racket face is more open the faster the ball will spin? I am not saying that Kevhen at all.

So alternatively what your saying is if I had a more closed racket face for a topspin shot, I would get more spin and less/more power?

I dont know how I can be right when I disagree with your advice that a more open racket face generates faster spin with less power.

Did you do your research on this because I really would like to see where you're getting this. Maybe our physicists in the forum can support your view? I always thought that is you want to spin something faster you have to apply more force to do so.

Maybe what you're saying has nothing to do with spin necessarily. Maybe what you mean is if I open the racket face a lot, the strings will not transfer all the energy into the ball to propel it forward and that some of the energy will not transfer from the speed of the swing because of its "skimming" effect.

 

[ShooterMcMarco]

i think that the closed face will produce more of a sheering effect on the ball which could create the same amount of spin as a ball struck with a vertical face. only thing is that the ball won't have as much pop since the ball isn't cleanly struck. other variables include racquet speed and racquet path as bill mentioned. maybe the speed at which the ball is traveling at you and how early/late you take the ball could be factors as well.

 

[OverHead]

As was said, yes Federer can hit with a closed face. As can any of us who can generate that kind of racquet head speed.

Do the pros hit all thier groundies with closed face? Not from film that I have seen.

From a pure physics standpoint, perfectly perpendicular generates maximum spin.

In the real world, where I live and play, most ground strokes are hit with a slightly open face to give loft for net clearance.

 

[kickingbird]

OK this is great that the thread is growing but there are 2 seperate topics going on.

Back to the topspin and closed face:

OK... this is in TWO PARTS to make it a little easier to read.

***PART 1***

I have a question with two assumptions in mind:

1) The ball is hit with a vertical racquet face.
2) You're hitting the ball at the peak of its bounce (not dropping not rising).

The Question:

APPROXIMATELY HOW HIGH CAN THE BALL POTENTIALLY BE LIFTED FROM ITS CONTACT POINT???

That is, what determines how much lift a ball gets??? Is it the speed of the upswing or the angle of the racquet face? Or both? Somebody PLEASE answer this!!! Can you hit a ball high over the net with a vertical racquet face? Will it also have lots of spin on it? Can you hit a ball high over the net with little spin? (Pls read Part 2)

Some claim to hit a topspin lob with a closed racquet face. This would mean that it is the upswing of the racquet that determines the amount of lift the ball gets.

The angle of the racquet face obviously makes a big impact on how much lift the ball will get. Closed face = ball goes downwards, open face = ball goes upwards. Vertical face would mean that the ball should go forwards. But if people claim to be hitting most shots with a vertical racquet face, and still are able to get arc on the ball, then upswing/friction must have an effect on lifting the ball. But how much can it actually lift the ball???

Let's say I hit a ball low to high and it goes into the back fence on the full, obviously the racquet face was a little open? Can a vertical racq face + extreme upswing combination produce a similar effect?

***PART 2***

Thoughts on hitting a 'heavy' ball with a vertical face...I always thought that the amount of spin and the amount of lift come together as a pair. Let's say I swing from low to high, with a vertical racq face, at 60% max racquet head speed. Let's say that ball lifts about 4m above its contact point at the peak of the arc. Let's say it has about 1200rpm (no clue if this is anywhere near accurate).

Now, if I increased my racquet head speed to 80%, the ball will be lifted higher, AND there will be more spin. Just one out of the two factors cannot increase. They are always both affected together (assuming a vertical racquet face). Am I right? If this is the case I cannot really hit a heavy ball that travels low over the net, because the more the spin, the more the lift over the net???

OK that'll do for now, please please please analyse!

 

[Bungalo Bill]

***PART 1***

I have a question with two assumptions in mind:

1) The ball is hit with a vertical racquet face.
2) You're hitting the ball at the peak of its bounce (not dropping not rising).

The Question:

APPROXIMATELY HOW HIGH CAN THE BALL POTENTIALLY BE LIFTED FROM ITS CONTACT POINT???

That is, what determines how much lift a ball gets??? Is it the speed of the upswing or the angle of the racquet face? Or both? Somebody PLEASE answer this!!! Can you hit a ball high over the net with a vertical racquet face? Will it also have lots of spin on it? Can you hit a ball high over the net with little spin? (Pls read Part 2)

Some claim to hit a topspin lob with a closed racquet face. This would mean that it is the upswing of the racquet that determines the amount of lift the ball gets.

Kickingbird,

There are several factors that can interact when "lifting" the ball high over the net.

1. Your swing path (the steepness of it)

2. Your body (particularly the legs)

3. How open your racket face is

4. Where you hit the ball

5. The height of the ball at contact (if the ball is real low, much harder to get under the ball to "lift" it)

All of these can be present in various degrees. the closing or opening of the racket face has to be within reason. A person hitting the ball with a "closed" racket face is not far off from having his racket square. The speed of the swing can compensate for a "closed" face. But pros do not close their racket face so much that it would hinder their consistency. The square or near square racket face is still the ticket. Many video clips and photos show a sqaure racket face or a near square racket face at contact.

For club players they should be concentrating on maintaining a square racket face at contact.

The angle of the racquet face obviously makes a big impact on how much lift the ball will get. Closed face = ball goes downwards, open face = ball goes upwards. Vertical face would mean that the ball should go forwards. But if people claim to be hitting most shots with a vertical racquet face, and still are able to get arc on the ball, then upswing/friction must have an effect on lifting the ball. But how much can it actually lift the ball???

Well there is only one way to find out. Test it yourself. an upward swing path cause the ball to go up. The steepness of the swing path helps determine the hieght. Obviously, swing speed is also a factor.

By glancing the strings against the ball in a upward fashion the ball will rise. This upward blow also spins the ball due to friction (strings and ball) with a forward spin. Depending on the revs applied through racket head speed and racket path, the ball will continue to rise until it starts going back down (resistance from the air) due to several things; ball speed, spin revs, gravity, etc.

A closed or open racket face by itself does not increase spin. Racket head speed and racket path does. You can have a totally square racket and really crank up on the ball applying lots of spin. This can be supported by simply watching the Western grippers as they windshield wipe up the back of the ball. The heavier spinners really increase racket head speed as they swipe up the backside of the ball.

***PART 2***

Thoughts on hitting a 'heavy' ball with a vertical face...I always thought that the amount of spin and the amount of lift come together as a pair. Let's say I swing from low to high, with a vertical racq face, at 60% max racquet head speed. Let's say that ball lifts about 4m above its contact point at the peak of the arc. Let's say it has about 1200rpm (no clue if this is anywhere near accurate).

Yes a heavy ball is produced from kinetic energy transfer, mass, swing speed, and swing path. Some players have a natural ability to hit a heavy ball. I have that ability and don't even know I am doing it or when I learned to do it.

Obviously, I will never hit back one of my own balls to see for myself so I go by what my opponents, coaches, and/or what my practice partners say. All of them say I hit a "heavy" ball. But I am not consciously trying to do so, I just hit it. I am sure the same goes for Davenport.

If you are a member on www.tennisplayer.net, I believe there is an article on John's website on the Heavy Ball. I am wondering if it also has something to do with one's body mass or people with "heavy bones" or bone mass. Swinging the arm with its weight I am sure has some impact on the "heavy" ball.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

I always thought that is you want to spin something faster you have to apply more force to do so.

BB - This is where you are getting tripped up. The ball has angular and forward momentum. The angular momentum is generated by the spin of the ball. Hitting on the same plane against a topspinning ball, a more closed (or open) racquet face (or more accurately, plane of the stringbed) will more directly oppose (or aid) the angular momentum of the ball, respectively by applying a greater amount of initial force against the northern (or southern) hemisphere of the ball, also respectively. It is quite possible to hit a ball with great force and it will be barely spinning, if that force is mainly directed against the forward momentum and only a small amount is directed against the angular momentum. A strike with less force can easily cause more spin if a greater proportion of the force is directed against (or with) the angular momentum.
The above explains a lot of why we even bother to have different grips.
You should consider that your ad hominem response to me was about killing the messenger and not looking at the message. I couched my response as a question in a way to let you off the hook and back out of your statement, but... Well, never mind, let's keep to the topic at hand to get to the truth, shall we?

 

[Bungalo Bill]

BB - This is where you are getting tripped up. The ball has angular and forward momentum.

No kidding.

The angular momentum is generated by the spin of the ball. Hitting on the same plane against a topspinning ball, a more closed (or open) racquet face (or more accurately, plane of the stringbed) will more directly oppose (or aid) the angular momentum of the ball, respectively by applying a greater amount of initial force against the northern (or southern) hemisphere of the ball, also respectively. It is quite possible to hit a ball with great force and it will be barely spinning, if that force is mainly directed against the forward momentum and only a small amount is directed against the angular momentum. A strike with less force can easily cause more spin if a greater proportion of the force is directed against (or with) the angular momentum.
The above explains a lot of why we even bother to have different grips.
You should consider that your ad hominem response to me was about killing the messenger and not looking at the message. I couched my response as a question in a way to let you off the hook and back out of your statement, but... Well, never mind, let's keep to the topic at hand to get to the truth, shall we?

Camilio,

Please...I am not getting tripped up here and please don't give me the courtesy to "let me off the hook". You should know by now that I dont back out of an argument easily. You haven't said anything contrary to what I am talking about.

The force direction is important which I simply describe as RACKET PATH. Please don't think I think that a flat swing (running parallel to the ground) with an angled or square racket means more spin then a racket that is heading up the back of the ball steeply.

So once again...

TO INCREASE BALL SPIN, THE RACKET PATH AND THE RACKET SPEED IS WHAT DOES IT. The angle of the racket will produce a little ball spin because of the angle the racket face is in. The court will produce natural topspin (from the hitters perspective) due to the friction induced by the court.

BUT! IN ORDER TO INCREASE, MAXIMIZE, ACCELERATE, MAKE GO FASTER, SPIN FASTER, GET MORE, OR GIVE IT MORE MOJO, YOU MUST HIT THE BALL FASTER AND YOU MUST DO IT WITH A SWING PATH THAT WILL SUPPORT IT.

Here read it: http://carini.physics.indiana.edu/E105/spinning-balls.html

ANOTHER EXAMPLE: If you spin a basketball on your finger, how do you increase the speed of the spin? Yes, you strike the ball FASTER!

 

[kevhen]

Good stuff Bill. Sometimes scientists use simple formulas and forget that the ball has seams or fuzz that can make the ball curve even more through the air than a plain solid ball. Hard fastballs (with the seams properly aligned) appear to rise because they basically don't drop as much as slower fastballs.

The face of the racquet does matter but it is less important than how fast you strike the ball. Ever since I was a kid I would juggle a tennis ball by hitting up in the air and then hitting it back up in the air with the frame parallel to the ground while moving the racquet sideways to generate sidespin. Now the faster I move the racquet sideways, the more spin, but if I turn the face to a 45 degree angle, I can still juggle the ball straight up in the air, but less spin gets applied to the ball because of the angle of the racquet. Having the racquet open in the direction of the spin allows for maximum spin.

 

[livthemoment]

camillo and Bill,

you are both correct, bill- the swingpath and swing speed assuming one constitent grip(have to limit variables) determines spin and angle.

Camillo-you are correct because the angular momentum and linear velocity of the ball you are about to hit(that was hit by you opponent) contributes greatly to how the ball reacts on a racquet. THAT IS why you are seeing a closed racquet head when federer strikes a ball that was hit to him with heavy topspin. The ball will want to rebound in an upward vector (direction), the closed head can compensate for this.

So the answer is a combination of both, and neither camillo nor bill can be discounted; they just were not complete

 

[Bungalo Bill]

camillo and Bill,

you are both correct, bill- the swingpath and swing speed assuming one constitent grip(have to limit variables) determines spin and angle.

Camillo-you are correct because the angular momentum and linear velocity of the ball you are about to hit(that was hit by you opponent) contributes greatly to how the ball reacts on a racquet. THAT IS why you are seeing a closed racquet head when federer strikes a ball that was hit to him with heavy topspin. The ball will want to rebound in an upward vector (direction), the closed head can compensate for this.

So the answer is a combination of both, and neither camillo nor bill can be discounted; they just were not complete

Well I dont necessarily agree that the only reason one angles the racket face more closed at impact is because of the upward bounce off the strings.

It also has a lot to do with natural impact and the forces that twist the racket face upon impact.

Plus, angled racket faces is not new. This has been going on for years. When I studied film with Vic Braden, the stick figure form of Agassi and the outline of his racket clearly showed Agassi makiing impact with the ball with a slightly closed racket face. It was very clear that at impact, the racket twisted in such a way as to open the face but because the racket was on a slight angle the racket penetrated through the ball with a square face.

The greatest contributor to increasing ball spin is the racket path and the racket speed. It is not the angle of the racket face that INCREASES spin.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

camillo and Bill,

you are both correct, bill- the swingpath and swing speed assuming one constitent grip(have to limit variables) determines spin and angle.

Camillo-you are correct because the angular momentum and linear velocity of the ball you are about to hit(that was hit by you opponent) contributes greatly to how the ball reacts on a racquet. THAT IS why you are seeing a closed racquet head when federer strikes a ball that was hit to him with heavy topspin. The ball will want to rebound in an upward vector (direction), the closed head can compensate for this.

So the answer is a combination of both, and neither camillo nor bill can be discounted; they just were not complete

Well I dont necessarily agree that the only reason one angles the racket face more closed at impact is because of the upward bounce off the strings.

It also has a lot to do with natural impact and the forces that twist the racket face upon impact.

Plus, angled racket faces is not new. This has been going on for years. When I studied film with Vic Braden, the stick figure form of Agassi and the outline of his racket clearly showed Agassi makiing impact with the ball with a slightly closed racket face. It was very clear that at impact, the racket twisted in such a way as to open the face but because the racket was on a slight angle the racket penetrated through the ball with a square face.

The greatest contributor to increasing ball spin is the racket path and the racket speed. It is not the angle of the racket face that INCREASES spin. Acceleration needs to be present.

 

[kickingbird]

Thanks as always Bill.

I guess the only way I can compliment this understanding now is by experimenting and feeling it for myself! Darn, it's raining today...

I am going to try and hit with a very slightly closed face from now instead of closing it too much. I'm sick of the occasional shanks, I want all my shots to feel good!

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Thanks as always Bill.

I guess the only way I can compliment this understanding now is by experimenting and feeling it for myself! Darn, it's raining today...

I am going to try and hit with a very slightly closed face from now instead of closing it too much. I'm sick of the occasional shanks, I want all my shots to feel good!

Good, you wont be disappointed. Even a flat face with a firm grip is good too! Remember because of the training some of these pros go through they have so much feel and timing that they can relax in the grip department which in this case they would have to slightly close the racket face.

If you just concentrate on meeting the ball with a square racket, you won't be disappointed.

 

[Rickson]

Closed face rules! Federer hits a lot of his groundstrokes with a closed face and so do a lot of other pros. The only time I see a closed face being a hinderance is on low balls.

 

[livthemoment]

Well I dont necessarily agree that the only reason one angles the racket face more closed at impact is because of the upward bounce off the strings.

It also has a lot to do with natural impact and the forces that twist the racket face upon impact.

Plus, angled racket faces is not new. This has been going on for years. When I studied film with Vic Braden, the stick figure form of Agassi and the outline of his racket clearly showed Agassi makiing impact with the ball with a slightly closed racket face. It was very clear that at impact, the racket twisted in such a way as to open the face but because the racket was on a slight angle the racket penetrated through the ball with a square face.

The greatest contributor to increasing ball spin is the racket path and the racket speed. It is not the angle of the racket face that INCREASES spin. Acceleration needs to be present.

Bill, i apologize... you are right that the angle is not determined solely on the spin that you are hitting against. I acknowledge that racquet path and speed are important. BUT (to talk in terms of an experiment), if the racquet path and swing speed were the same (constant) for every swing in which a player wants to hit (for example) a topspin return shot. The path the ball is returned is Greatly determined by the spin on the ball that is about to be hit. A swing path and plane and racquet face angle to hit a ball that has topspin has to be different than for a ball with underspin(backspin). The former swingpath, speed and racquet face angle if used for and underspin ball would hit the ball lower and more than likely into the net.
That is why the spin an opponent puts on the ball is important to more than just aligning for the shot properly.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Bill, i apologize... you are right that the angle is not determined solely on the spin that you are hitting against. I acknowledge that racquet path and speed are important. BUT (to talk in terms of an experiment), if the racquet path and swing speed were the same (constant) for every swing in which a player wants to hit (for example) a topspin return shot. The path the ball is returned is Greatly determined by the spin on the ball that is about to be hit. A swing path and plane and racquet face angle to hit a ball that has topspin has to be different than for a ball with underspin(backspin). The former swingpath, speed and racquet face angle if used for and underspin ball would hit the ball lower and more than likely into the net.
That is why the spin an opponent puts on the ball is important to more than just aligning for the shot properly.

Well I am not a physics expert and to some degree I would agree with you, but my argument centered on what increases spin and one would have to acknowlege that the speed of the swing and the path it takes are the two biggies that increase spin.

But thanks for seeing it from my perspective! I appreciate it!

 

[kevhen]

Yes, you are right Bill. Speed and path of the swing are the two biggies that increase spin. Angle of the racquet face as well as the pace and spin of the incoming ball can also affect spin. Some strings grip the ball better adding more spin as well. But speed of the swing and it's swing path are the biggest two factors if you only want the top two.