Forehand Question

[LeeD]

As usual, being a cranky old fart, I have some stories about just that....
Currently, I know several guys who hit like 4.5's or BETTER when they hit the wall or when they hit WITH their hitting partners. They crush heck out of the ball, every shot deep, IN, with power, pace, spin, and precision.
Guess what? They hardly ever get 2 points in any game against me, a cranky old slow moving 4.0, or any of my quicker 3.5-4.0 buds. They hit great, against a wall, against each other, but mix in someone NEW, someone who's not the same page (strokes, pace, spin, location, intent), they totally fall apart and quickly lose interest....they're losing bagels, of course.
Hitting with a person is different than hitting against a person, and hitting the wall is an entirely different ballgame.

 

[skuludo]

Where is my left arm? It's tucked inside with a bend like the garage forehand.

If I let the ball bounce two times I can take a more full swing and uncoil making better use of the left arm and giving me time to recover. I have tried once bounce before, but I don't remember what the outcome was when I took a full swing. I'll need to try it again to see if I can make better contact out front. I am not sure how I can make my contact point lower against an incoming high ball. I can take the ball on the rise or run back like and try to take the ball lower. I can also half volley from my shoe laces but then it will be too low.

As for no right leg push if I pushed off I would have hit a harder ball. I could have spined the shot more with the increased rhs, but I just chose to hit flat against the wall at a slow speed. Increaseing my pace with the leg loaded then I just need to stand back. I was standing too close to the wall to hit a heavier fast topspin shot.

The increased shoulder rotation on the backhand side added another 10mph and for the first time I was able to generate 69mph rhs on my backhand side. Whether I can control that racket head speed well enough for consistency is not somthing I know of yet until I play tennis on the court.

I do use a polyester string. That salmon pink string I was using was Discho Iontec 1.25mm from Mamba Tennis. I haven't used a more "normal" tension in months now, so I have no idea how that will play.

 

[Cheetah]

i suggested the wall because it's my opinion he needs to retool his strokes. i thought it would be good to work them out at the wall where he doesn't have the pressure of keeping the ball in or hitting his 90mph sitter. At the wall he could take his time and work on his mechanics and get something better committed to muscle mem and then try it out on a human. if he only plays a human he's just going to keep going for his 90mph fh or moonballs. He needs both i think but it's his choice.

He's more consistent on the wall but still to me his wall technique stinks. Yea it's ok for 3.0 or 3.5 but he's not striking the ball well. it's ~ok~ but his wall shots have very low topspin and he's just pushing them back trying to get 40 in a row. He's need to develop a good strike with some pop and heaviness and more spin. His only real good shot is the first one where he drop feeds it. That's a good shot. Then he goes into wall pusher mode. Not one ball goes pop. It's all 'ffffftttttt'. not 'fffffwwwWWWWWWAAAACKKKK!!!!!"

 

[LeeD]

I think you need to look at his wall hitting FOREhand. It's a flat, hard shot that he can replicate....on the wall.
Against a real player, he never hits it, not once.

 

[skuludo]

i suggested the wall because it's my opinion he needs to retool his strokes. i thought it would be good to work them out at the wall where he doesn't have the pressure of keeping the ball in or hitting his 90mph sitter. At the wall he could take his time and work on his mechanics and get something better committed to muscle mem and then try it out on a human. if he only plays a human he's just going to keep going for his 90mph fh or moonballs. He needs both i think but it's his choice.

He's more consistent on the wall but still to me his wall technique stinks. Yea it's ok for 3.0 or 3.5 but he's not striking the ball well. it's ~ok~ but his wall shots have very low topspin and he's just pushing them back trying to get 40 in a row. He's need to develop a good strike with some pop and heaviness and more spin. His only real good shot is the first one where he drop feeds it. That's a good shot. Then he goes into wall pusher mode. Not one ball goes pop. It's all 'ffffftttttt'. not 'fffffwwwWWWWWWAAAACKKKK!!!!!"

Yes I do agree that I need a balance of both. Wall for coordination and reproduction of drop feed results. Human for actual usable results.

I'll be using the wall to see if I can play with more knee bend and hit heavier topspin forehands against the wall using Cheetah's tips.

 

[Cheetah]

ok his wall technique isn't 'horrible' per say but that's because as you said he's hitting flat. he has some decent shots i guess... but idk... not good enough. His wall technique is definitely better than when facing a human.

turn up the volume when you watch his wall video and listen to the sound of his hits. They are all powder puffy. Weak. No weight. They only have pace because he has decent rhs with his arming. but as you said they are on the flat side so they should sound like he's hitting flat... which they don't. they sound like mishits. If he hit a good flat ball he should be able to get the same pace with a slower swing and a nice contact sound. right?

 

[Cheetah]

op, these guys have a lot of decent vids too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa-3GStYh_I&feature=related

 

[skuludo]

ok his wall technique isn't 'horrible' per say but that's because as you said he's hitting flat. he has some decent shots i guess... but idk... not good enough. His wall technique is definitely better than when facing a human.

turn up the volume when you watch his wall video and listen to the sound of his hits. They are all powder puffy. Weak. No weight. They only have pace because he has decent rhs with his arming. but as you said they are on the flat side so they should sound like he's hitting flat... which they don't. they sound like mishits. If he hit a good flat ball he should be able to get the same pace with a slower swing and a nice contact sound. right?

My backhand is even flatter with a slower rhs when I filmed this video; however, it can achieve about two times the pace for the amount of effort I put into it. The pace will vary depending on how high I choose to clear the net with my backhand. If I skim it within milimeters of touching the net it I can maximize the forward velocity. The forehand side ratio for rhs to actual ball speed is about 1.1. Faster racket speed generates about the same speed; however, there is significantly more topspin on it compared to the backhand side. Even in the garage video you can see the ball start to arc.

Cheetah, in your eyes does it look like I know how to use the kinetic chain? rkelley said I am using some in the garage, and I just need to do it against a moving ball. (Either against a human or wall.) Do you disagree with rkelley on that note?

Here is a chart that shows correlation to rhs to ball speed for the serve.
http://www.oncourtoffcourt.com/_media/products/pdfs/129f83a34d60413a4003a7d452c081bf.pdf


I think I can hit the ball at the same rhs as the wall video and generate more flat pace. I can test this out if my statement is true. Maybe pushing out more will make the shot faster.

 

[skuludo]

op, these guys have a lot of decent vids too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa-3GStYh_I&feature=related

I'm watching it right now.

Just from watching the first few minutes he is already talking about using the wrist and elbow like a windshield wiper.


I'll need to see what I do now when I put more spin on the ball. Then see how I can incorporate the information in that video.

 

[skuludo]

. elbow too close in
. raquet is not squared up to ball. looks like you were leading w/ the tip of the raqcuet
. right foot is in front of the left foot
. you're flat footed
. no knee bend
. you didnt push off your right leg
. too much elbow bend
. right toe pointing at weird angle
. hips and torso not rotated enough
. contact not out in front enough probably
. contact point probably too high
. racquet face might be closed too much. maybe
. where's your left arm??

that's a lot of issues you need to address.

practice finding the right contact point on a wall. not by drop feeding.

I don't see much knee bend in that photo either. I do know that Federer gets lower and bends more when he is playing a match though.

I think I was on my toes in the screen capture, but the picture doesn't show it. If I tighten my shoe laces the shoe should raise up more. My shoe laces were very loose. I've once ran to a shot and my shoe did not follow my foot. To tell for sure whether I am on my toes in a video, I'll need to buy an electronic device that beeps when ever my heels touch the ground and install that device in my shoe. On Court Off Court sells that device for $29.00 + $14 shipping. http://www.oncourtoffcourt.com/2-HOP-Quick-Step-Trainer.html

 

[Cheetah]

he was bending his knees and he's extending them into the shot and he's not flat footed.

 

[skuludo]

I know Federer is not flat footed. I can see that when he is moving and hitting his shots. The heel raise does not look as obvious compared
to the fourth picture in this url. http://www.oncourtoffcourt.com/2-HOP-Quick-Step-Trainer.html

Federer's knee bend is no where near this in that practice session photo http://www.oncourtoffcourt.com/flex-trainer.html. (In an actual match Federer will go lower.)

 

[skuludo]

My fitness sucks too.

I have never finished playing eight sets in one day successfuly. One five set match followed by a best of three. I always cramp in my second straight match by the 6th or 7th set playing 8 hours straight.
By the second match I am always sluggish.

Here is the schedule of what I did when I made the wall video. I did isometric exercise (pulling rubberband) for 40 minutes then I had played three sets of tennis winning my match 6-2, 6-1, 6-1. Then hit the wall for 30 minutes. Then go to another park and try and rally with someone. I could barly run at this point, and my arm felt really heavy. My hand was also struggling to lift the racket up, which forced me to rotate my hips more in order to hit a forehand. Then came home and it was 9:00pm. At midnight I produced the radar gun video.

I'm on my second week right now trying to improve my core strength. I'll try and use the flex trainer for the first time, which is similar to the ap belt that Pat sells, to try and develop an athletic foundation when I hit the wall next time.

The jump in my rhs speed came after I started the isometric exercise and using Etchberry's Etch-Swing http://etcheberryexperience.com/en/info/the_etch_swing.

 

[skuludo]

Next wall attempt. I tried using my hips and get on my toes with a lower position.



The first ball cracked when I was rallying with the wall.

http://youtu.be/VjFiZ1bkK8&t=3m37s


No effort forehand speed.
http://youtu.be/klNOiLR5hJY

 

[limitup]

First link doesn't seem to work.

Why are you SO concerned with speed and that radar gun?!

I'll give you one tip unrelated to what you've been posting about - because honestly I don't really know what to say about all this radar gun talk lol

... but one thing I noticed about your forehand is that in the takeback your racquet face never gets into the "pat the dog" position. Instead, your racquet face stays in almost the same exact position (perpendicular to the ground) throughout your entire back and forward swing.

Most pros get the racquet into that "pat the dog" position for various reasons, but one you'll like is that it generally helps you to get more racquet head speed because the racquet whips forward on edge.

 

[tennishotdog]

yeh im wondering the same thing...is there some "who has the fastest forehand" contest going on around here that i dont know about?

 

[skuludo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjF_iZ1bkK8t=3m37s

 

[skuludo]

yeh im wondering the same thing...is there some "who has the fastest forehand" contest going on around here that i dont know about?

That was just a display of how I dink the ball.
What I wanted to know was do I know how to use the kinetic chain properly when I attempt to use it.



Here is my attempt at hitting as much spin as I can using my imitation of other peoples footwork hitting with the wall. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjF_iZ1bkK8 Start from 3 Minutes and 37 seconds. First attempt the ball was cracked I think, and it had strange boucnes.
Have I fixed anything or is it still the contact problem, not on toes, not low enough, not using left arm effectivly, no hips, etc?

I have also tried the more backturn on the backhand, but my timing is really off against a live person spraying shots wide or just hitting it out.

 

[skuludo]

First link doesn't seem to work.

Why are you SO concerned with speed and that radar gun?!

I'll give you one tip unrelated to what you've been posting about - because honestly I don't really know what to say about all this radar gun talk lol

... but one thing I noticed about your forehand is that in the takeback your racquet face never gets into the "pat the dog" position. Instead, your racquet face stays in almost the same exact position (perpendicular to the ground) throughout your entire back and forward swing.

Most pros get the racquet into that "pat the dog" position for various reasons, but one you'll like is that it generally helps you to get more racquet head speed because the racquet whips forward on edge.

A certified instructor told me to get in the pat the dog position too, but I was too stubborn to change at the time. Do I get into the pat the dog position in the newest wall video?

 

[Cheetah]

Do I get into the pat the dog position in the newest wall video?

nope.

 

[skuludo]

nope.

So there is absolutly no progress at all in this video then?

When I hit take balls at my ankle do I use pat the dog? (Such as 3 minutes and 56 seconds and 4 minutes and 29 seconds.)

I'll need to make a more consious effort on all my shots to make them pat the dog.

 

[rkelley]

Del Potro does get into much of a "pat the dog" either. But he also hits relatively flat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGodD1fMfHY

Generally most pros hit a "pat the dog" position before the forward swing starts. The racquet is basically parallel to the ground before the forward swing starts. As Cheetah noted, you're not hitting that position. I believe that the ptd will help with more topspin, which will become important the harder you hit.

In this current video I am seeing a kinetic chain. I think this is a big improvement over the first video that I saw. Even without the "pat the dog", get this form above grooved on the wall and then use it when you're playing with a live opponent.

 

[skuludo]

Del Potro does get into much of a "pat the dog" either. But he also hits relatively flat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGodD1fMfHY

Generally most pros hit a "pat the dog" position before the forward swing starts. The racquet is basically parallel to the ground before the forward swing starts. As Cheetah noted, you're not hitting that position. I believe that the ptd will help with more topspin, which will become important the harder you hit.

In this current video I am seeing a kinetic chain. I think this is a big improvement over the first video that I saw. Even without the "pat the dog", get this form above grooved on the wall and then use it when you're playing with a live opponent.

Ok. Thanks.
Another question do I need the pat the dog position on the backhand side as well?

I was having trouble with the extra rhs speed I was getting with the extra back rotation.

Do you see anything wrong with my left arm during the preparation phase?
From all the pictures the arm of Federer is parallel to the baseline. Am I achieving this?
I would like confirmation about this area. If I am not then I'll try making my left arm even straighter and pulling across more. Currently what I am doing right now makes me feel like I am coiling up like a spring ready to unload.

 

[tennishotdog]

this is irrelevant but are those courts at templeton highschool?

 

[skuludo]

this is irrelevant but are those courts at templeton highschool?

Yes. That is temp.

 

[skuludo]

First link doesn't seem to work.

Why are you SO concerned with speed and that radar gun?!

I'll give you one tip unrelated to what you've been posting about - because honestly I don't really know what to say about all this radar gun talk lol

... but one thing I noticed about your forehand is that in the takeback your racquet face never gets into the "pat the dog" position. Instead, your racquet face stays in almost the same exact position (perpendicular to the ground) throughout your entire back and forward swing.

Most pros get the racquet into that "pat the dog" position for various reasons, but one you'll like is that it generally helps you to get more racquet head speed because the racquet whips forward on edge.

I can actually test that theory whether or not I actually do get more racket head speed using pat the dog using a radar gun that's designed to measure golf and baseball swings. The device is also marketed to be used for tennis as well. From what I have read here I get the impression that pat the dog just helps the racket align properly to get more topspin using a fast racket head speed. Swinging the racket on edge and opening up at the last second or swinging it with a flat plane did not effect the racket head speed when I attempted this experiment. My current body can generate racket head speed that I talked about in previous posts, just that I need to use it effectivly. At the moment I've swung light or heavy and they all peak at the same speed, including, thick, thin, or wooden rackets.

Here is information about the device if you don't understand what device is necessary in order to measure racket head speed http://www.oncourtoffcourt.com/Swing-Speed-Radar.html . I think Nike has a device in their labs that can measure racket head speed as well, but I don't have access to such a device. This is the next cheapest alternative compared to getting those devices that measure swing speed that you see on television programs such as Sports Science.

Do you see any importance to these devices for research purposes?

I am using the device to see if my work out program that I bought is actually improving my fast twitch muscle fibers or not. If I see no change I can get my money back.
I originally wanted to buy the Speed Chain and I was ready to spend $3000 on it, but the company had trouble manufacturing it. Right now they are not accepting any orders.


You can also buy the "Swing Speed Radar" device yourself if you are really curious whether pat the dog or swing like Del Potro take back makes a difference in racket head speed (Del Potro doesn't use pat the dog). Owning the device will not necessarly make you play better tennis. All it does is give you feedback.

Is a 1000fps camera fast enough to calculate rpms for a shot limitup?

 

[Bobby Jr]

Do I get into the pat the dog position in the newest wall video?

You're looking the wrong way. He's right there, 20 feet to your left. :lol:

 

[Bobby Jr]

I think the OP has some odd obsession with racquet head speed, velocity etc which he should set aside completely for at least a year. You shouldn't waste a single second on that - and waste is the operative word here. Forget it - instead work on your strokes and heed some of the good pointers made here already.

Some that I noticed after a short view of one of the vids.

- Your right foot is often in front of the left on during the stroke. Hell knows how that happened but poor set-up is a root cause of stroke problems.

- When you hit you seem to throw your upper arm through and hook your forearm around (contract your bicep) so you end with a sharp elbow pointing towards the target. That is almost a certain sign you're prone to pulling off the ball and makes sense given you said you frame the ball when you try to hit with more topspin. The more pressure you're under or more unfamiliar the situation, the more likely it is you'll do it. Sound familiar? When you swing try to swing fully - think of it more as a single smooth arc. (it's not quite that but is closer than it is to a pointy curve)

- In the vid above (CIMG0137) I see very few forehands where you properly loaded up your right leg so it contributed much to the kinetic chain. That's something you definitely have in store efficiency-wise when you work on that. (I'm sure someone will have mentioned it above)

- Get a tape measure and measure the distance from the wall to where a baseline would be - mark it with chalk or something. When you hit on the wall, make it worth your while. Plan something, pick a target on the wall (draw one), concentrate on being in position with your feet etc. If how you hit against the wall isn't being reflected in your matches then maybe spend less time on the wall and hire a ball machine or find a hitting partner - someone who is consistent and who you can do routines with.

 

[skuludo]

I think the OP has some odd obsession with racquet head speed, velocity etc which he should set aside completely for at least a year. You shouldn't waste a single second on that - and waste is the operative word here. Forget it - instead work on your strokes and heed some of the good pointers made here already.

Some that I noticed after a short view of one of the vids.

- Your right foot is often in front of the left on during the stroke. Hell knows how that happened but poor set-up is a root cause of stroke problems.

- When you hit you seem to throw your upper arm through and hook your forearm around (contract your bicep) so you end with a sharp elbow pointing towards the target. That is almost a certain sign you're prone to pulling off the ball and makes sense given you said you frame the ball when you try to hit with more topspin. The more pressure you're under or more unfamiliar the situation, the more likely it is you'll do it. Sound familiar? When you swing try to swing fully - think of it more as a single smooth arc. (it's not quite that but is closer than it is to a pointy curve)

- In the vid above (CIMG0137) I see very few forehands where you properly loaded up your right leg so it contributed much to the kinetic chain. That's something you definitely have in store efficiency-wise when you work on that. (I'm sure someone will have mentioned it above)

- Get a tape measure and measure the distance from the wall to where a baseline would be - mark it with chalk or something. When you hit on the wall, make it worth your while. Plan something, pick a target on the wall (draw one), concentrate on being in position with your feet etc. If how you hit against the wall isn't being reflected in your matches then maybe spend less time on the wall and hire a ball machine or find a hitting partner - someone who is consistent and who you can do routines with.

So rkelley was wrong about me loading up then. Everyone I asked just seemed to dodge this question, and I got no response except for rkelley. Then I finally get an objective response from you where there was actually no proper kinetic chain.

I still have not received an answer whether I fixed my left arm preparation for my forehand. It feels like I get replys, but never get any sort of answer.

The right foot leading is a poor setup. I do this when I reach for balls somtimes. This habbit came up when I stopped tennis and then restarted again. Does not seem to disappear. I used to due that one legged hop before, but now it's this strange right foot reach move.

So should I swing smooth or follow Cheetah's recommendation of using Coach Kyle? I think the video said to use the forearm and pull up to get extra topspin.

I also seem to have trouble knowing how far I am away from a ball (spacial awareness). I think I move close enough to hit the ball on my forehand and when I try to hit the ball I wiff the ball. Happens more often in forehand to forehand cross court exchanges. I also sometimes move too close and just hit the vibration dampener area of the string bed. You can see me frame a ball in the very first video I posted. The guy hits a moon ball and I am on the dead run trying to hit a forehand above my shoulder. In this case I frame it and the ball flys above the fence behind me.

In a match someone always runs me very wide out of the court, and I have to hit backhands while trying to do splits. Or I just keep getting moon balled and I have no choice, but to half volley it because there is no room to run back in that court. A moon ball will hit the top of that fence easily. So running back and smashing is not an option. If the person does the moon ball perfectly it will clear the fence every time and wall every time. The only counter I know of is to read or guess right when that particular opponent will moon ball and run in to no mans land to hit a smash or let it drop and take it on the rise.


When you say sound familiar. What are you refering to?

 

[skuludo]

You're looking the wrong way. He's right there, 20 feet to your left. :lol:

Well at least the racket face is facing the dog, but I'm still 20 feet from petting that dog :lol:

 

[Bobby Jr]

So rkelley was wrong about me loading up then. Everyone I asked just seemed to dodge this question, and I got no response except for rkelley. Then I finally get an objective response from you where there was actually no proper kinetic chain.

I only watched the first 2.5 mins of that video I mentioned before my last post. I think you do load on some but looking at the post-hit part of the swing can sometimes make it appear you've launched because your body comes around, you get airborne etc. I usually look at the leg/foot before hitting when it's not a running shot to see how it loads up and braces/pushes before contact - i.e leading up to it. In your case you are generally quite flat on the ground and whatever knee bend you have is pretty static until after you've struck. Ergo, there can't have been a whole lot of involvement.

Here's a series of pics to demonstrate what I mean. See the three top slides before he make contact. His right leg has planted and loaded up well before contact. It has to come before - trying to do it at the same time will never create an efficient chain - and will probably cost you consistency as well.

If you check out people playing at your club you'll see so many club players try to launch but leave it too late and so it has no pay-off.

It's important to note that many pics/vids of Federer are of him hitting on the rise or as far as half-volleys. In those cases having a solid base becomes increasingly important rather than the sort of chain you'd have it you were launching into a forehand. Just pointing it out as it can seen a little contradictory talking about using your legs in the scenario you are and then have someone post a video of Federer hitting on the rise as he does in tons of his training vids. His timing and groove is something few will be able to mimic. He can make shots most players would be rushed to hit into routine day-at-the-beach forehand because he recognises so quickly what shot has been hit, where the ball is going, how it's going to bounce and decide where he wants to hit it then start preparing for it.

Re: the stuff you asked about re: Cheetah's comments on Coach Kyle etc... I don't know what he suggests. There's always stuff to work on, I was just focussing on the ground-up part of the chain.

When you say sound familiar. What are you refering to?

I was referring to: do you often find in matches you frame/shank balls? The comment I made in that paragraph was related to it. Whipping your arm around (hence the exaggerated elbow point) will contribute to that for sure.

 

[limitup]

skuludo - my biggest tip for you would be to stop hitting against the wall, and hit more with real people. You hit 10X better against the wall than a real person, so there doesn't seem to be much purpose in continuing to hit against that wall for now.

You seem to be pretty serious about tennis and getting better, and if so you'll want to use your time wisely. Hitting against a wall can be great, but when you can't replicate what you do on the wall when hitting against a real person there's little benefit to continuing to hit against the wall. Spending hours upon hours with radar guns and seeing how hard you can hit the ball is also not a very good use of your time.

If you ask me, you should be spending your time analyzing one of those first videos you posted of you hitting against that other player, and figure out what you're doing "wrong" in that video that was causing you to hit 5 moonballs in a row, etc.

You're pretty consistent and look decent in your most recent wall video but I don't think I saw even one of those types of shots in the video you posted of your playing with that other guy. You have to figure out why.

Just being honest and trying to help!

 

[skuludo]

skuludo - my biggest tip for you would be to stop hitting against the wall, and hit more with real people. You hit 10X better against the wall than a real person, so there doesn't seem to be much purpose in continuing to hit against that wall for now.

You seem to be pretty serious about tennis and getting better, and if so you'll want to use your time wisely. Hitting against a wall can be great, but when you can't replicate what you do on the wall when hitting against a real person there's little benefit to continuing to hit against the wall. Spending hours upon hours with radar guns and seeing how hard you can hit the ball is also not a very good use of your time.

If you ask me, you should be spending your time analyzing one of those first videos you posted of you hitting against that other player, and figure out what you're doing "wrong" in that video that was causing you to hit 5 moonballs in a row, etc.

You're pretty consistent and look decent in your most recent wall video but I don't think I saw even one of those types of shots in the video you posted of your playing with that other guy. You have to figure out why.

Just being honest and trying to help!

I normally don't hit with the wall. I've only hit with the wall two times so far this month. And it was just demonstrate to how I hit the ball when I raise my intensity. The first video hitting with someone just shows that I wasn't trying. Even though I was not trying, I know I still have mishit issues that won't disappear when I try. I still don't know how to fix my spacial awarness issue as well. I don't seem to know where I am in relation to the tennis ball. I've tried taking lots of adjustment steps, even going to the extreme such as taking 12 steps when the ball is right next to me and I still can hit the top of the frame. Watching the ball, I just watch the racket frame the ball. Looking at the ball and keeping my head still I can frame the shot on purpose, so it's not auto sweet spot if I just look at the ball. The swing path leading up to the ball will determine whether I hit the sweet spot.

 

[skuludo]

I only watched the first 2.5 mins of that video I mentioned before my last post. I think you do load on some but looking at the post-hit part of the swing can sometimes make it appear you've launched because your body comes around, you get airborne etc. I usually look at the leg/foot before hitting when it's not a running shot to see how it loads up and braces/pushes before contact - i.e leading up to it. In your case you are generally quite flat on the ground and whatever knee bend you have is pretty static until after you've struck. Ergo, there can't have been a whole lot of involvement.

Here's a series of pics to demonstrate what I mean. See the three top slides before he make contact. His right leg has planted and loaded up well before contact. It has to come before - trying to do it at the same time will never create an efficient chain - and will probably cost you consistency as well.

If you check out people playing at your club you'll see so many club players try to launch but leave it too late and so it has no pay-off.

It's important to note that many pics/vids of Federer are of him hitting on the rise or as far as half-volleys. In those cases having a solid base becomes increasingly important rather than the sort of chain you'd have it you were launching into a forehand. Just pointing it out as it can seen a little contradictory talking about using your legs in the scenario you are and then have someone post a video of Federer hitting on the rise as he does in tons of his training vids. His timing and groove is something few will be able to mimic. He can make shots most players would be rushed to hit into routine day-at-the-beach forehand because he recognises so quickly what shot has been hit, where the ball is going, how it's going to bounce and decide where he wants to hit it then start preparing for it.

Re: the stuff you asked about re: Cheetah's comments on Coach Kyle etc... I don't know what he suggests. There's always stuff to work on, I was just focussing on the ground-up part of the chain.


I was referring to: do you often find in matches you frame/shank balls? The comment I made in that paragraph was related to it. Whipping your arm around (hence the exaggerated elbow point) will contribute to that for sure.

At the 3 minute and 37 second mark I felt like I was able to setup better after switching out the tennis ball. That was why I suggested to just ignore the stuff going on at the begining of the video.

When I do use a smooth swing to generate topspin I do notice less mishits. I was just using that bicep move to generate even more topspin.

 

[skuludo]

skuludo - my biggest tip for you would be to stop hitting against the wall, and hit more with real people. You hit 10X better against the wall than a real person, so there doesn't seem to be much purpose in continuing to hit against that wall for now.

You seem to be pretty serious about tennis and getting better, and if so you'll want to use your time wisely. Hitting against a wall can be great, but when you can't replicate what you do on the wall when hitting against a real person there's little benefit to continuing to hit against the wall. Spending hours upon hours with radar guns and seeing how hard you can hit the ball is also not a very good use of your time.

If you ask me, you should be spending your time analyzing one of those first videos you posted of you hitting against that other player, and figure out what you're doing "wrong" in that video that was causing you to hit 5 moonballs in a row, etc.

You're pretty consistent and look decent in your most recent wall video but I don't think I saw even one of those types of shots in the video you posted of your playing with that other guy. You have to figure out why.

Just being honest and trying to help!

Everyone here has been of great help in a way so far, and I appreciate all the advice I have been given so far. Thanks.

 

[Power Player]

Hitting hard against a wall is a waste of time anyway. The ball needs to drop into the court and all you do is reinforce bad habits.

You just need to pony up and get a coach. It's far better than internet advice. I honestly thought you were trolling because I can't understand your obsession with the wall and mph. The video with the radar was bizarre and fascinating at the same time, so I give you props for that.

 

[skuludo]

Hitting hard against a wall is a waste of time anyway. The ball needs to drop into the court and all you do is reinforce bad habits.

You just need to pony up and get a coach. It's far better than internet advice. I honestly thought you were trolling because I can't understand your obsession with the wall and mph. The video with the radar was bizarre and fascinating at the same time, so I give you props for that.

My most consistent hitting partner hasn't been able to play any tennis at all for the past few months. The wall was the only thing I had left that I can quickly turn to for filming purposes. I may have an obsession with the radar gun, but I really hate the wall. The wall burns the fuzz off of my tennis balls quickly and cracks them too compared to the longer life span I get when hitting with someone. When making the wall video I've cracked three tennis balls with one ball having a hole at the seam. The other two just stopped bouncing.

So far I've been turned down everytime I have tried to get a coach in the city I live in. My other option is to leave the city and try to see if a coach is willing to take me on as a student. I think I got turned down cause I kept point to those radar gun videos. The guy in the first video does hold a coaching license. He use to teach in the US with some sort of PTA certification. He use to hit much bigger and more consistent, but now has all sorts of issues with his grip effecting his consistency. He said his eastern forehand grip kept turning to semi-western and he can't seem to break the habit of using the semi-western grip when he wants to hit an eastern forehand. Another way to phrase his situation is he has the yips.

Should I go for that Jeff Sal somthing as a coach or just spend money with a live coach? Jeff is one of those online analysis sites. I think he was a former atp player. People have been talking about him here, and there is a dedicated thread about him on this forum.

 

[Bobby Jr]

Skuludo - listen to Power Player and find a coach; and forget the radar. Don't even mention it. It is a waste of time. Continuing to use/discuss it shows you're missing the point. Most top pros have never once used a radar in training. Why? Because they're completely pointless and serve only to waste time when you could be doing something actually productive. Or, think about it another way: every second you spend thinking or using it is another second your tennis wont be improving.

Just find a coach - one which you stand on the court with, not online. Try to find someone who's under 40-ish preferably so they're more likely to have a link to modern tennis and tell them what you're trying to achieve. That is: improve your forehand, identify the hitches/unproductive quirks and gain confidence with it for match-play.

Edit: you say you've been turned down by coaches? Why would they do that? Don't they work for money? What's the issue?

Maybe ask some guys at your local club if they could recommend a coach.

 

[Power Player]

I just was at a lesson with a nationally ranked player. I will share a point with you.

Stop worrying about pace. Hit real relaxed and smooth. He likes my forehand, but said I swing too hard sometimes and put too much spin on the ball. When you hit relaxed, you hit cleaner and you extend through the ball more as well. I made that adjustment and was hitting harder with less effort.

You need to start again with a clean slate and stop worrying about pace. Get with a live coach.

 

[skuludo]

Skuludo - listen to Power Player and find a coach; and forget the radar. Don't even mention it. It is a waste of time. Continuing to use/discuss it shows you're missing the point. Most top pros have never once used a radar in training. Why? Because they're completely pointless and serve only to waste time when you could be doing something actually productive. Or, think about it another way: every second you spend thinking or using it is another second your tennis wont be improving.

Just find a coach - one which you stand on the court with, not online. Try to find someone who's under 40-ish preferably so they're more likely to have a link to modern tennis and tell them what you're trying to achieve. That is: improve your forehand, identify the hitches/unproductive quirks and gain confidence with it for match-play.

Edit: you say you've been turned down by coaches? Why would they do that? Don't they work for money? What's the issue?

Maybe ask some guys at your local club if they could recommend a coach.

I have tried sending multiple e-mails and left phone messages, and I never got a reply back from that club. Next I tried the other ones and they told me I needed to be a member of the club in order to receive coaching. Initiation fees for these club range in the $10,000+ dollar range with monthly dues around $300. My other option is to travel outside of my city to receive private coaching.

I'm also not sure what level of coaching certification I need to look for in an instructor. At the instructor level I have access to the training manual for becoming a certified instructor. The next level after inctrutor is I think club level 1. The training program for coaches then starts to branch off for club players and professional players. So far I've had coaching at the instructor level and level 1 and really did not say anything about my forehand. I just got advice about to moon ball the ball cross court when I am on the dead run. Hit short angles to open up the court, etc. Didn't get too much technical advice at all regarding my forehand and backhand. They also told me I should enter tournments.

Tennis BC is what I have been using so far for finding tennis clubs in Vancouver.

 

[DeShaun]

Last summer, when I was getting on the offense, I could hit 6 offensive forehands in a rally, not more; beyond that point, I could no longer get airborne to relieve my feet and allow my hips to move faster... if you accelerate properly and wholly into your shot, you should get too tired to continue by the time you hit 6 to 8 in a row. If it means 100 mph on balls above your shoulder, then go for it... but the body's limit in a power movement (a movement involving fast contraction at near maximal tension) is 6 to 8 reps. If you can do more, it means you could go for a bigger push.

This is fascinating! 
Thank you for posting. It validates my experience, so I feel less alone.

It's always nice when you get to a point where your technique forces you to improve your health condition because it can't sustain the effort you could consistently put into practice... it's a lot different than failing technically.

This also validates what I've been experiencing lately. I've been trying to explain to some friends lately my recently acquired view that the gist of what seems to be separating me from playing tennis on the level that I wish to be playing it on seems to be my lack of tennis-specific fitness.

 

[tennishotdog]

I have tried sending multiple e-mails and left phone messages, and I never got a reply back from that club. Next I tried the other ones and they told me I needed to be a member of the club in order to receive coaching. Initiation fees for these club range in the $10,000+ dollar range with monthly dues around $300. My other option is to travel outside of my city to receive private coaching.

Didn't get too much technical advice at all regarding my forehand and backhand. They also told me I should enter tournments.

Tennis BC is what I have been using so far for finding tennis clubs in Vancouver.

hey im from van and i too have tried finding a good coach but to no avail. found some on craigslist but after a couple emails they jsut stopped replying. i was like wtf dont you want my money? lol

i think they probably just have too many students on their hands and would rather teach beginners instead not someone who's picky with the technical stuff about strokes and tehcnqiues like we discuss on TT --which they probably dont even udnerstand therefore make them look bad.

its pretty hard to find a high level tennis instructor here i guess, but the coaches who mostly teach little kids and seniors are a dime a dozen and just a waste of money and time.

 

[skuludo]

hey im from van and i too have tried finding a good coach but to no avail. found some on craigslist but after a couple emails they jsut stopped replying. i was like wtf dont you want my money? lol

i think they probably just have too many students on their hands and would rather teach beginners instead not someone who's picky with the technical stuff about strokes and tehcnqiues like we discuss on TT --which they probably dont even udnerstand therefore make them look bad.

its pretty hard to find a high level tennis instructor here i guess, but the coaches who mostly teach little kids and seniors are a dime a dozen and just a waste of money and time.

Yeah the coaches I've been to teach little kids, beginners, and seniors. I got absolutly nothing technical for my strokes, and it was all game based strategy.

So far I've been with an instructor level coach and a club level one coach. They don't work on any technical elements for any strokes. The ones that I think are good based on my impression of their youtube videos, work in private clubs such as the head coach at Arbutus. They have a facility that does high speed footage I think. Lots of cameras mounted on top of the tennis court. That program was once open to the public, but now it's strictly members only.

Most of the coaches that are available to the public have very busy schedules. The only one that I know of that might have open time slots for private coaching is at Steveston Community Centre, but it's kind of too far for me. It will take me two hours to get there by public transit.

At the moment I don't feel lost to the point I have no idea what I am doing. If I don't generate maximum top spin and just use a smooth swing I am confident I won't mishit the ball provided I can read the trajectory of the incoming ball well enough.

I haven't practiced serving in weeks. I have an idea of what I want to practice and it's that palms down move in the trophy position. The few serves when I did execute it well really had a nice pop sound to it, but I felt I could still hit the shot better.

Also, for the first time my legs don't feel sore climbing two flights of stairs running as fast as I can, while two weeks ago it felt super stiff and I would be out of breath. I think the rubber band is starting to paying off, which might stop me from cramping so easily.




Where do you usually play?

 

[skuludo]

Maybe I was trying to do the walking step on my forehand. It seems that I need to step out with my right foot first and then hit. Against the wall I just reached for the ball to save myself by moving the right foot forward. If I moved forward like in Yann Noah's video then I would need to continue to move forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agkP1i2Ljto&feature=related


I wonder if the two handed backhand link disconnection technique will tame the swing path. The extra rhs so far with the extra backturn is not in a usable state for me right now.

 

[user92626]

Hi Sku

Sorry if I miss this info, but what is the highest level that you're looking to get to?

You wall hitting is very consistent.

 

[skuludo]

I never thought about what level I wanted to be. At first I just wanted to maximize my shot making ability with the amount of strength I had at the time. Then as I kept playing I realized that that was not possible, because my body gets stronger on it's own the more I play tennis.

Right now I just want to be a shot maker. From there I just use those strokes in a strategic way. I feel that my forehand is in a usable state, but I lack specialty shots such as hitting high two handed backhands while doing the splits like Nadal. The other shot I don't do well with is hit wide forehands that kick above my head and send them back short with heavy angle or deep with pace. Also my serve has too many flaws, that I still need to fix to be more effective. Till this day I still haven't practiced doing the palm down drill that someone posted on this forum.

I haven't played a tournment in years, so I have no idea what my handicap level is right now. I can use those strokes from my first wall video and redirect other peoples pace to hit a winner. So far I haven't felt the need to use the latest wall strokes or the parking lot forehand at all in the matches I've played so far, but I still tried to use it as much as I can.



There is one guy I played that had Santoro's exact game with great hands at the net. He also serves and volleys a lot too. I think that would really challenge my current skills, but I have no idea how to get into contact with that person to arrange a match again.

 

[skuludo]

If I ever want to take off all the pace and topspin on my forehand and backhand without slicing what is the best way to do this? (For fake drop shot purposes like what Tomic did at the AO.)

I saw the youtube video where Bernard Tomic hit that flattish forehand drop shop against Julien Benneteau at the Australian Open.

 

[Power Player]

This also validates what I've been experiencing lately. I've been trying to explain to some friends lately my recently acquired view that the gist of what seems to be separating me from playing tennis on the level that I wish to be playing it on seems to be my lack of tennis-specific fitness.

You are using a 370 gram racquet at a 3.5 level.

 

[skuludo]

You are using a 370 gram racquet at a 3.5 level.

Yes I did use one at one point. But I've moved away from that weight. Now its in the 340-355 gram range.

 

[Power Player]

I was talking to Deshaun.