How to advance to 4.0 from 3.5?
- Thread starter Eph
- Start date
aimr75
Hall of Fame
i agree, spend some cash and get a bunch of lessons to get you on the right track.. weight aside, there were a number of suggestions in this thread, but you'll probably see the most improvement by having somebody there with you to teach you the fundamentals
Fedace
Banned
Fastest way to get there is to get rid of all your Obvious weaknesses. From what i have seen, most of the 3.5 guys have Weak backhands due to their 1-hander. I would just switch to 2-hander if this is the case. 2-handers are so much more reliable unless you are just good at 1-handed backhand naturallly.
and develop a reliable solid volleys, nothing spectacular but just reliable and error free.
and develop a reliable solid volleys, nothing spectacular but just reliable and error free.
Eph - Try to contact the varsity coach and ask if one of players (men or womens) would hit with you, for a fee. I was hitting with a guy on scholarship at the University of Maryland for a while and it really helped my game. Honestly, he would suck as a coach because he could not explain how to do anything, but my game got so much better and was definitely worth $40 for two hours (especially since the guy could get indoor bubble time for free). My only problem was that he would not hit with me during his long seasons.
dozu
Banned
here is what you do - and this applies to every stroke in tennis.... FH, BH, volleys both sides, serve.
go to the side fence... place your front foot at about 6 to 12 inches away from the fence (depending on your flexibility and the type of shot you hit), the shadow your strokes. and your contact should be you laying your racket flat on the side fence.
now you have the hit-in-front concept... when you playing for real, just imagine this side fence in front of you, see where the ball will come thru the imaginary fence, and hit the imaginary fence.
of cource when you shadow with the real fence, your racket has to stop at it.... when you hit at the imaginary fence, don't forget to hit thru the ball.... the concept of hitting 3 balls in a row is a good one.
That's a good idea, except there are no universities here. I'm going to the community college now to ask if I can train with the woman's team for a fee; or at least use their ball machine.
smoothtennis
Hall of Fame
Why can't you travel into the city or the closest city every two weeks, or even once a month to work with a teaching pro? Then in practice you work on what they taught you.
smoothtennis
Hall of Fame
You are turning your shoulders on your forehand takeback, and that's a start. When you come forward on your forehand however, you rotate to face the court, and catch the ball quite late. This causes you to have to lift your right shoulder to compensate for the ball being so close to you rather than out in front. Your follow though then, is a result of this late hit, and notice the follow through is not out front and around, but rather, you have to collapse your followthrough right onto your chest.
Jolly knows about this - as this is an issue he has had, and knows what this is all about.
No offense to Jolly at all - this was a year ago, and he knows how to fix it I think - whether he does it now or not. Pics are for reference - compare to Fed's extended and out front follow through pics.
Jolly knows about this - as this is an issue he has had, and knows what this is all about.
No offense to Jolly at all - this was a year ago, and he knows how to fix it I think - whether he does it now or not. Pics are for reference - compare to Fed's extended and out front follow through pics.
dozu
Banned
to the OP, assuming you have above average fitness and athleticism, if you play with someone who is better than you, at least 10 hours a week, and spend another 3-5 hours a week learning the techniques, either by getting lessons from a pro, or self-coaching if you have an athletic background, then I say in 4 YEARS you maybe good enough to try to play for a D1 team...
4 months - no way. Human brain just doesn't learn things this fast.
single strokes - like FH/BH/Volley etc, typically takes 10,000 repetitions to master, (assuming you are doing every one of the 10,000 correctly!), looking at your vid, you have at least 10 strokes to learn to play at D1, that is 100,000 repetitions.
plus footwork and playing patterns you need to learn, not to mention the mental approach part of the game.
I wish there is an 'EASY' button you can push or a magic pill you can take, but neither has been invented yet.
4 months - no way. Human brain just doesn't learn things this fast.
single strokes - like FH/BH/Volley etc, typically takes 10,000 repetitions to master, (assuming you are doing every one of the 10,000 correctly!), looking at your vid, you have at least 10 strokes to learn to play at D1, that is 100,000 repetitions.
plus footwork and playing patterns you need to learn, not to mention the mental approach part of the game.
I wish there is an 'EASY' button you can push or a magic pill you can take, but neither has been invented yet.
^^^Dozu he wants to play on the club team. He doesn't want to be come a 5.0 just a 4.0. That's quite possible. I think he is about a 3.0 now so it might take longer.
Videotaping himself and have the guts to put it on the internet is a start. Its not really rocket science though. I think the best way to improve is to get a pro and play alot of tennis with good (and some mediocre) players. Here in NYC I find the hard part is just playing alot of tennis. Its difficult to get a ton of court time (though not impossible of course). Its easy to find a pro - but good ones will cost you.
I think (and I am saying this as a pretty low level player) the guy has some BIG issues with his game. He needs to rework alot of it - and work on things with a pro. Some people have the kind of talent to just watch guys and play much better I guess. Most mortals do not. The constant correction you can get from a pro can move things along much faster.
Also I would recommend a tennis related training program. Again sadly the best way to do this is spend some money and get yourself a top trainer but you can do this yourself to some extent. Still I would recommend a workout buddy just for the motivation factor. Actually I have found working out with two or three guys can be really great. The competition factor is awesome.
If you want to maximize your development just weight loss isn't enough. You need to develop lower body strength, quick feet, core strength, flexibility and alot more.. Of course getting a tennis pro is the best way to start off.
Pete
Videotaping himself and have the guts to put it on the internet is a start. Its not really rocket science though. I think the best way to improve is to get a pro and play alot of tennis with good (and some mediocre) players. Here in NYC I find the hard part is just playing alot of tennis. Its difficult to get a ton of court time (though not impossible of course). Its easy to find a pro - but good ones will cost you.
I think (and I am saying this as a pretty low level player) the guy has some BIG issues with his game. He needs to rework alot of it - and work on things with a pro. Some people have the kind of talent to just watch guys and play much better I guess. Most mortals do not. The constant correction you can get from a pro can move things along much faster.
Also I would recommend a tennis related training program. Again sadly the best way to do this is spend some money and get yourself a top trainer but you can do this yourself to some extent. Still I would recommend a workout buddy just for the motivation factor. Actually I have found working out with two or three guys can be really great. The competition factor is awesome.
If you want to maximize your development just weight loss isn't enough. You need to develop lower body strength, quick feet, core strength, flexibility and alot more.. Of course getting a tennis pro is the best way to start off.
Pete
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When were these videos taken? It will be a lot more helpful if you could post a recent video of you hitting.
Just based on your videos, in order to get to 4.0, I think you need a coach that can help with the fundamentals of the strokes / volleys / serves etc.
Your backhand is defensive at best, but it is not getting the job done. It is fine to slice your bh, but you want it good enough not to be attacked. Yours is not.
Your forehand is too error prone because of faulty techinque. Your contact point is too late and it is why you are keep arming all the shots. You want to swing from low to high.
To get to 4.0 in 4 months, I would say it is most important to fix up your techniques and play as many matches as possible against many different opponent.
It's one thing to have 4.0 strokes and another to play with 4.0. By playing many matches, you also start learning how to compete.
Just based on your videos, in order to get to 4.0, I think you need a coach that can help with the fundamentals of the strokes / volleys / serves etc.
Your backhand is defensive at best, but it is not getting the job done. It is fine to slice your bh, but you want it good enough not to be attacked. Yours is not.
Your forehand is too error prone because of faulty techinque. Your contact point is too late and it is why you are keep arming all the shots. You want to swing from low to high.
To get to 4.0 in 4 months, I would say it is most important to fix up your techniques and play as many matches as possible against many different opponent.
It's one thing to have 4.0 strokes and another to play with 4.0. By playing many matches, you also start learning how to compete.
smoothtennis
Hall of Fame
Eph - what I am talking about is finding a good pro/teacher - ONE. They can live 100 miles away or be closer. The point is, you meet them, review your goals, and set up a lesson once a month or so. You are very dedicated, at least you present yourself to us this way.
Many people drive to find the good teachers in other sports as well. I see your game and I have seen your progression from last year. I personally consider getting a teaching pro your absolute number one Critical Success Factor period.
PS. If you jump from teacher to teacher or whoever happens to be avail in some place, they will not have continuity in their approach to your game development.
Bud
Bionic Poster
The James Jensen 10 DVD set is a really good tool, IMO.
Bud
Bionic Poster
This is one of the best statements I've read on TT.
Okay, I'll get one in Boston as my university is in that area, and we'll find time depending on my schedule. (I fly over 150k miles a year so it seems I'm always in the air which is why I thought I'd get a coach ad hoc).
Do you recommend I play matches with players better than me?
10ACE
Professional
just get in as many single matches that you can. What ever you can do physically to aid your athletic prowess then keep doing it. Everything people have said about your strokes do it. Follow through, catch the ball on your volley don't place the racquet out there as if it were a wall. Keep working on your movement, remember tennis is about how fast you can start and stop on the court, so also work on that.
In the early development of player, technique (learning how to hit the ball) is really important. But at some point, the player needs to know how to play a tennis match as well.
I think player's weakness and strength become pretty evident around 3.5. And it takes a lot of time, coaching, and effort to improve their weakness. While it is important to improve them, it is equally or more important how to conceal those weakness and use your strength and how to play a tennis match - like figuring out a player's tendency, shot patterns, and stuff like that.
He does have a lot of flaws in his strokes and I don't think 4 months would be enough to bring significant improvement in all areas. But he focused on learning how to compete and play a tennis match while working on his major flaws only, then he might just give a decent match against a 4.0
smoothtennis
Hall of Fame
Sounds like a great plan Eph. I know many musicians and martial artists that travel over 100 miles for lessons from good teachers. It just means you have to have patience, practice exactly what they give you, and give the foundation time to be built. You cannot rush quality.
Here's my though on you. You practice so much, that you also ingrain bad habits and bad form daily for hours. A real live teacher is a must for someone who practices as much as you until you build that foundation of technical proficiency.
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Let me just be as honest as I can based on a lot of experience. Your goal needs to shift toward technical improvement vs. trying to get on some 4.0 team as a competitive player. I can't help but look at your game in a holistic fashion. There is a time and place for everything.
I don't think playing better players right now is paramount to your improvement. They are just going to run you into court positions that take advantage of your mobility, and they are going to mercilessly hit shots at you that take adavantage of technical deficiencies.
Now....'hitting' with better players can certainly help. But not competitive sets yet.
smoothtennis
Hall of Fame
To All,
I have seen new guys that were athletic and very competitive that were new to the sport develop into lifetime unorthodox pushers because they had severe stroke deficiencies when they started playing tons of competitive matches. Hey - they got very good at playing matches, but they are stuck forever at 3.5-4.0.
Eph has made it clear at least to me, that he truly wants a solid 4.0 skill base. I just think each goal has a key set of developmental tasks that need to be followed in a certain order which support the number one goal.
We can't have it all right now.
I have seen new guys that were athletic and very competitive that were new to the sport develop into lifetime unorthodox pushers because they had severe stroke deficiencies when they started playing tons of competitive matches. Hey - they got very good at playing matches, but they are stuck forever at 3.5-4.0.
Eph has made it clear at least to me, that he truly wants a solid 4.0 skill base. I just think each goal has a key set of developmental tasks that need to be followed in a certain order which support the number one goal.
We can't have it all right now.
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Eph has definetly showed us his desire to not settle at the 3.5 - 4.0 area. He has made it clear that he wants to go beyond.
When setting goals it is important to remind ourselves of the key elements of a goal.
1. S - Be Specific. Whatever the desired outcome of your goal may be, it should be a specific as possible. The more detail, the better. When setting goals they should be stated in present terms.
2. M - Your goals must be able to be measured in some way. It should be very clear and easy to know exactly what the achieved goal consists of, such as the amount of dollar if the goal is money or owning a certain home if that is the goal. Set goals that are easliy measured, counted or visible to anyone.
3. A - Is your goal achievable? Has someone done something similar? Do you believe you can achieve the goal? As you are setting goals, you need to believe and know that you can achieve this goal.
4. R - Being realistic is not meant to hold you back when setting goals, but they need to be realistic to you. Many people may discredit your goals by saying that can't be done, but you have to determine if it is realistic for you to achieve the goal. If you are not sure of your goal being realistic set a smaller goal, you can always set another goal.
5. T - While setting goals be sure to set a time limit to each goal. When a goal has time frame in which it must be achieved there is an urgency created in your mind. Your goal can also be broken down into parts that must be accomplished by predetermined dates and times.
In Serious Tennis, Scott Williams breaks down the four main skill groups in the SMARTS system: stroking skills, playing skills, mental skills, and preparatory skills. He then identifies three phases of development; the core phase, the mileage phase, and the fine-tuning phase that all players should follow to improve their game. This approach allows intermediate and advanced players to be in a continual mode of physical and mental progression to truly enhance their skills and tactical understanding of the game. His SMARTS systems stands for:
1. Seeing the ball
2. Movement to the ball
3. Adjusting to the ball
4. Rotation through the ball
5. Transfer weight or energy through the ball
6. Swing through the ball
Yup. It can really hurt development.
Agreed. Playing singles games of course is tons of fun but if you want to advance beyond "below average" 3.5 levels - then you shouldn't worry too much about it.
The key problem of course is that when you try to WIN you quickly discover that hitting balls out is very bad. So you start swinging slower. You try "guiding" the ball.
So instead of using topspin your varying the pace. THis is what the golden guy advocated in a thread. It's a very bad habit to get into. You get locked into lower levels of tennis.
Instead develop the stroke that allows you to vary topspin amounts to PULL the ball in via lessons and controlled practice. Then move onto playing matches.
The same thing holds true with serves. If you look at his serve now - well frankly its awful. I say that as a middling mediocre player myself. But even among the poor players I hit with its just awful. You "lock in" that serve with match play and your pretty much screwed.
As Dave Smith says in his book - getting people to change is hard. Honestly I wish people had taken this approach with my development. I started playing matches right away and I have a ton of bad habits..I will admit that SOME younger people (usually very young men and teenagers can play and not develop such bad habits). What they do is hit with tons of errors. They don't slow up their swing to be consistent they just work through it to develop topspin instead.
But people that lack that kind of make up will often turn into pushers. Again its not like the OP has 4.0 strokes and needs to just learn to be competitive. Then advocating alot of match play is a good idea..
Pete
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Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Eph,
You might want to try Oscar's tennis stuff. The main thing is to go through the ball more and work on your weight and conditioning.
Here is the thing, you can take all the lessons in the world. You can have pretty good looking strokes. However, if you don't get weight off (and this goes for me and others), your tennis will always suffer because it takes extra effort for you to stay balanced, stay on your toess, move, get an early jump on the ball, and stay focused.
Many many players have moved up NTRP ratings by simply losing weight and getting in tennis condition and not just general condition.
Many players do not realize how much better they can focus and mentally stay in the match when they feel good and are light on their feet which is critical to consistency. It is simply a modern miracle to tennis players when they end up losing weight who were once heavy. You just have to do it to find out.
It will take a mental strength and some momentum to get you there. I am 6' 2" so my ideal weight it about 190 - 195 lbs. I am at 210 - 215 depending on how many beers I drink.
However, my tennis weight I feel best at is 180 - 185.
You will go much farther in the next five months if you focus on that one thing. You just will.
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Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
Also, need you to make a list of the foods that are in your cupboard and refrigerator.
Get a general idea of the times you eat throughout the day.
At first, and you should check this with your fitness trainer is to lower the calorie intake or eat foods with negativre calories. In case you don't know, a negative calorie is one where it takes more calories to digest the food as compared to the amount of calories in the intake. Many vegatables are in the negative calorie area.
Food intake is going to be critical.
Use the SMART goal setting and figure out a safe, healthy yet challenging way to lose weight. Example follows:
1. Specific - I want to reduce my weight on court by 50 lbs. based on my ideal weight for my hieght and considering tennis conditioning and the 5.0 level of tennis.
2. Measureable - Will use weight scale and log on a weekly basis.
3. Acheivable - This goal is acheivable by losing 7 - 8lbs. per month. Research concludes this is a safe amount of weight to lose per month.
4. Realistic - I can realisitcally reach this goal by changing my eating habits and the foods I eat. I can reduce calorie intake and get involved in low-impact fat burning exercises that will help accelerate my efforts safely.
5. Time-based - My goal will be reached in seven months with a start date of January 1, 2009 and ending July 31, 2009.
Get a general idea of the times you eat throughout the day.
At first, and you should check this with your fitness trainer is to lower the calorie intake or eat foods with negativre calories. In case you don't know, a negative calorie is one where it takes more calories to digest the food as compared to the amount of calories in the intake. Many vegatables are in the negative calorie area.
Food intake is going to be critical.
Use the SMART goal setting and figure out a safe, healthy yet challenging way to lose weight. Example follows:
1. Specific - I want to reduce my weight on court by 50 lbs. based on my ideal weight for my hieght and considering tennis conditioning and the 5.0 level of tennis.
2. Measureable - Will use weight scale and log on a weekly basis.
3. Acheivable - This goal is acheivable by losing 7 - 8lbs. per month. Research concludes this is a safe amount of weight to lose per month.
4. Realistic - I can realisitcally reach this goal by changing my eating habits and the foods I eat. I can reduce calorie intake and get involved in low-impact fat burning exercises that will help accelerate my efforts safely.
5. Time-based - My goal will be reached in seven months with a start date of January 1, 2009 and ending July 31, 2009.
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What's in my refrigerator? Some bruschetta I made. Foie gras from per se the other night. Lots of jam. Some different cheeses. Pantry has lots of pastas in it, spices, etc.
I really don't have much other than pastas, foie gras, and truffles (both the mushroom and chocolate).
I count calories; my intake is under 2000 every day.
(I drink about one glass of red wine a night. If I go to dinner, I have at least one more glass of wine, usually red)
Allergic to all fish and seafood.
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
I am.
Currently at 267 according to the scale this morning.Can you give me some tennis weight exercises I can do? I do a lot of plyometrics already.
Flyingpanda
Rookie
Foie gras ... and truffles....
That's some nice eating in your fridge, Mr. Fancy Pants.
There's nothing wrong with playing singles matches against people who are way better than you, but that shouldn't be a priority. It's probably better if you just rally with them, their consistent strokes will mean that you can get some good hitting in.
You can also play that game where you play out points without serves, after 3 consecutive hits, you start a point. First one to 11 wins. It's a pretty good game for developing ground strokes and you'll see which of your shots a higher level player can really take advantage of (helps a lot with depth and angles).
If I played my rallying partner matches, he'd just blow me off the court and it probably wouldn't be very fun or helpful for either of us.
That's some nice eating in your fridge, Mr. Fancy Pants.
There's nothing wrong with playing singles matches against people who are way better than you, but that shouldn't be a priority. It's probably better if you just rally with them, their consistent strokes will mean that you can get some good hitting in.
You can also play that game where you play out points without serves, after 3 consecutive hits, you start a point. First one to 11 wins. It's a pretty good game for developing ground strokes and you'll see which of your shots a higher level player can really take advantage of (helps a lot with depth and angles).
If I played my rallying partner matches, he'd just blow me off the court and it probably wouldn't be very fun or helpful for either of us.
naylor
Semi-Pro
I think you're doing a terrific job of bringing your weight down, keep it up (or rather, going down!).
As lots of people have already suggested - and you're going to do in Boston - you need to start working on your technique, with a coach. This is for the obvious reasons, but most importantly to help you enjoy the game more, with longer and better rallies.
What I mean by this is:- at the moment you're trying to get fitter to play tennis; you want to get to a point when tennis itself is a big part of your fitness regime. And you get there when your rallies get longer, and more punishing, such that out of a 3 hour session, you spend an increasing %age of the time actually hitting (and hitting quality balls), and correspondingly less recovering and picking up balls, etc.
To put that in the context of my own situation, I started as a tennis player but gave it up to play squash (semi-professionally) - when I was competing my fighting weight was 160 lbs., not light when you're 5'10", but reasonably powerful. I gave that up nearly 20 yrs. ago (bad knee injury) and took up golf, and "good living" over those years cranked my weight up to 240. I took up tennis again 4 years ago, and since then I have worked hard technically to learn the modern game.
My current level is 4.5, about what it was when I gave it up 30 yrs. ago, but technically a lot better as I have to rely on swing quality rather than young legs. I have been lucky, in that I was a rackets player (tennis, then squash) and a golfer, and I'm a sucker for swing mechanics, so digesting technique and using it to improve my tennis swing come relatively easy. However, the problem is execution - not just doing 5 deep cross-courts with topspin, but actually keeping it going for 20 - 30 - 40 - 50 shots without breakdown.
That's what drives me at now - keeping it going longer, with no mistakes, because if something feels better than 20 quality cross-courts, it's 30 cross-courts! Conversely, what infuriates me is mistakes due to bad execution. This in turn means getting fitter, to play better tennis - I've dropped from 240 to 220 in 10 weeks, I'm trying to stabilise it at that level for 3-4 weeks, and then my target is to bring it down to 200 during the first half of our tennis season when I'll be playing hard tennis 3-4 times each week. And see what kind of tennis I play then.
Good luck with your efforts - I think you'll find they're well worth it.
As lots of people have already suggested - and you're going to do in Boston - you need to start working on your technique, with a coach. This is for the obvious reasons, but most importantly to help you enjoy the game more, with longer and better rallies.
What I mean by this is:- at the moment you're trying to get fitter to play tennis; you want to get to a point when tennis itself is a big part of your fitness regime. And you get there when your rallies get longer, and more punishing, such that out of a 3 hour session, you spend an increasing %age of the time actually hitting (and hitting quality balls), and correspondingly less recovering and picking up balls, etc.
To put that in the context of my own situation, I started as a tennis player but gave it up to play squash (semi-professionally) - when I was competing my fighting weight was 160 lbs., not light when you're 5'10", but reasonably powerful. I gave that up nearly 20 yrs. ago (bad knee injury) and took up golf, and "good living" over those years cranked my weight up to 240. I took up tennis again 4 years ago, and since then I have worked hard technically to learn the modern game.
My current level is 4.5, about what it was when I gave it up 30 yrs. ago, but technically a lot better as I have to rely on swing quality rather than young legs. I have been lucky, in that I was a rackets player (tennis, then squash) and a golfer, and I'm a sucker for swing mechanics, so digesting technique and using it to improve my tennis swing come relatively easy. However, the problem is execution - not just doing 5 deep cross-courts with topspin, but actually keeping it going for 20 - 30 - 40 - 50 shots without breakdown.
That's what drives me at now - keeping it going longer, with no mistakes, because if something feels better than 20 quality cross-courts, it's 30 cross-courts! Conversely, what infuriates me is mistakes due to bad execution. This in turn means getting fitter, to play better tennis - I've dropped from 240 to 220 in 10 weeks, I'm trying to stabilise it at that level for 3-4 weeks, and then my target is to bring it down to 200 during the first half of our tennis season when I'll be playing hard tennis 3-4 times each week. And see what kind of tennis I play then.
Good luck with your efforts - I think you'll find they're well worth it.
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Bud
Bionic Poster
I wasn't referring to the OP, his strokes or current level of play. I was simply referring to the statement.
What the other poster is saying... is that you can take lessons and look like a 4.0, based on your strokes. However, all that comes apart when you play a real match, if you're not match tough.
Bud
Bionic Poster
Bud
Bionic Poster
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
I am.
Can you give me some tennis weight exercises I can do? I do a lot of plyometrics already.
Eph, you know what to do. We are not talking about anything really specific to tennis. If I wanted to lose weight, I would perform more cardio type exercises and use weight lifting to manage muscle tone.
Move to salads and fruits and lots of it. Limit pasta intake. Have some protein on occasion during the week. When I played tennis competitively, we ate salads til it was coming out of our ears. This kept us lean and mean.
Walking is also a fantastic exercise to drop pounds. It is low impact and you should do it religiously during your goal period.
Stay away from pastas, breads, white flour, sugar, soft drinks, diet drinks, and pound water and vegetables like nobodies business.
Get rid of all junk in the house. Limit your protein bars. Eat a light dinner. I tend to lose weight if I don't eat past 6 o'clock. The other bull about eating small meals through the day and into the night doesn't wrk for me. Find out what works.
BE THE WWF SALAD MAN. THE WWF VEGETABLE DESTROYER. YOU ARE EPH, THE DESTROYER. LIVE IT, BREATH IT, CONQUER IT.
If you want to play at the same level as those 5.0's on the team, you have to quit screwing around.
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Djokovicfan4life
Legend
Hahahahahahaha, this might just be worth putting in my sig! The WWF Salad man!
