How to learn the straight arm forehand?

[formula16]

I hit a decent forehand now but i am aware that i have a bit of a bend in my elbow. I know that is not a bad thing but i want to hit a straight arm forehand (want a more aesthetically pleasing forehand and its more effecient anyway, not the point of this thread). So right now i've got a decent double bend going and i want to convert it to straight arm (please dont tell me how stupid this is). So it shouldnt be that hard right considering i already have the basic forehand down.

any tips anyone would like to share?

is it as simple as consciously thinking about keeping the elbow as straight as possible?

what about this push/pull business?

what i want to really know is if the straight arm is a result of doing something else correctly. I worked many hours on the wrist aspect of the forehand. I saw many vidoes of most top pros seemingly bend their wrists back right before they hit their forehands. So i tried to emulate this. It failed badly as i shanked and mis hit a lot of balls. After much experimentation, i realised the wrist snapping back was a result of the tremendous body rotation The racquet was "lagging back" as an effect of inertia. So the top pros were not actually concentrating on "snapping the wrist" back as i had been trying to learn. After realising this, my forehand immediately improved greatly, with the shot becoming very powerful and with great spin.

I want to know if the straight arm component of the forehand is a similar deal

Thanks!

thanks

 

[1HBH Rocks]

Watch Nadal and Federer...

The reason they hit with a straight arm is that they perform an arm extension in their take back while they pronate their forearm a bit. I've posted pictures of Federer's forehand in a few threads. I'll try to get them as they are commented with the actual anatomical terms which tells you exactly what movements he performs in each pictures.

I used to hit with a straight arm forehand. I spent the whole summer last year figuring out how I would get to hit it a la Federer. Of course, it worked fine. I was blasting the ball really hard and I had tons of spin... I spent so much time working on my footwork and shot placement that I was able to slam almost any ball I could get to. However, the timing and contact were really hard to get right and every other day I would be hitting very averagely. Kudos to my hitting partner who started hitting big himself and getting me into trouble, but it wasn't only about him playing well. It wasn't rare to play two or three great days and then have a poor day... and I had a one handed backhand, not to help! So both of my strokes used to be high maintenance.

But if you say that you have a good forehand right now, why not work on improving what you have instead of trying to change it all over? I recently got enough of trying to maintain a super high level of play to be aggressive all the time. Instead, I work on movements which are easier to duplicate. I have a two handed backhand since three weeks and I must have played a few thousands of them by now -- it's not yet a second forehand, but it evolves greatly. I started using the double bend and a genuine western grip and I'd say I'm hitting about as big as I used to, except with more spin.

And, tactically, instead of trying to end the point early, I think I'll get to build them one shot at a time, knowing I risk not to miss too many of them. If you really want an advice, getting grooved in a simpler movement will pay off in the long term; if you get to stop and play again after a while, your movement risks to be closer to its previous level if it's simpler and, throughout matches, you risk a lot less to ride roller coasters where you will hit either big or fail.

 

[dominikk1985]

Most straight armers don't straighten it in the take back but transition to the forward swing.

swing the arm back slightly bent and then relax the biceps so that the arm extends naturally.

 

[connico]

Most straight armers don't straighten it in the take back but transition to the forward swing.

swing the arm back slightly bent and then relax the biceps so that the arm extends naturally.

I like how this is phrased.

To emphasis the feeling, practice throwing a ball and feeling that extension.

 

[user92626]

OP,

I learned to hit a "straight" or straighter FH by incorporating these points:

- I space the ball away from the body correctly.
- Contact the ball more out in front. Think backing the hitting arm with the shoulder.
- Think slinging or flinging the rackethead.

Hitting a straighter FH is a challenge for most rec players because, IMO, not many are 'brave' to distance themselves far from the ball and swing all out. People are more comfortable staying close to the ball as if they'd have more control. And you need to swing all out in a slinging motion to get power. Double bent FH is easier to get power and comfort (and the limits that go with it) because you'd be doing something like an arm wrestling.

 

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

I don't recommend "learning" a straight arm forehand. It all comes down to your natural bio-mechanics. You can either do it, or you don't.

Do you have a naturally "uncoiling" body type? Or do most of your power come from sudden jerky/snapping motions?

 

[TheCheese]

Don't think of it as two distinct things. There is a spectrum of "straightness" in the forehand that goes from a complete double bend and a straight arm.

Federer doesn't hit with a complete straight arm every single time. All you have to do is think about adjusting your arm position to meet the ball. So, if the ball if further out in front, you hit with a more straight arm. If it's closer to you, you obviously have to do a double bend.

So really all there is to do is adjust your contact position.

 

[dominikk1985]

I like how this is phrased.

To emphasis the feeling, practice throwing a ball and feeling that extension.

Throwing balls is a great training for serving (a guy that throws like a girl can't serve) however I think here this is not correct.

In a throw you start bent and then extend the arm into the release. In the FH this comes earlier at the end of the transition the arm will already reach full extension. It's more like a cricket bowler but with the bent arm takeback.

 

[doctor dennis]

I hit a decent forehand now but i am aware that i have a bit of a bend in my elbow. I know that is not a bad thing but i want to hit a straight arm forehand (want a more aesthetically pleasing forehand and its more effecient anyway, not the point of this thread). So right now i've got a decent double bend going and i want to convert it to straight arm (please dont tell me how stupid this is). So it shouldnt be that hard right considering i already have the basic forehand down.

any tips anyone would like to share?

is it as simple as consciously thinking about keeping the elbow as straight as possible?

what about this push/pull business?

what i want to really know is if the straight arm is a result of doing something else correctly. I worked many hours on the wrist aspect of the forehand. I saw many vidoes of most top pros seemingly bend their wrists back right before they hit their forehands. So i tried to emulate this. It failed badly as i shanked and mis hit a lot of balls. After much experimentation, i realised the wrist snapping back was a result of the tremendous body rotation The racquet was "lagging back" as an effect of inertia. So the top pros were not actually concentrating on "snapping the wrist" back as i had been trying to learn. After realising this, my forehand immediately improved greatly, with the shot becoming very powerful and with great spin.

I want to know if the straight arm component of the forehand is a similar deal

Thanks!

thanks

Work extremely hard on your footwork and particularly your shuffle steps to get you in the right hitting position. I hit for about half an hour using a straight arm and it seemed that I had more pace. Not sure if I really did or not though. The problem was that you have to be in the correct hitting position every time or it becomes a problem. Short balls were very hard for me to adjust too.
Have fun learning and grooving it. It definitely looks more aesthetically pleasing IMO.

Enjoy

 

[BevelDevil]

Do you currently pronate on the take back (face your palm downwards)? I found this, and the timing of it, to be the trickiest part of the Federer stroke.

Instead, I like Del Potro as a model because he doesn't pronate on the takeback. It's a lot simpler and easy to learn, though I don't think it generates the same power or topspin. It might be a good transition stroke.

Anyway, one thing I focus on is my elbow. I think of my elbow as whipping my forearm forward and outward. This visualization really helped getting straight on contact and hitting through the ball cleanly.

Also keep in mind that when drop hitting a ball, you gotta drop the ball really far away from you, otherwise you will be building a bad habit. Maybe this is why Federer starts rallies with an underhand squash shot instead of his regular forehand.


BTW, I would add Berdych to the straight-arm club. Although his arm is bent at contact, his racket accelerates forward with a straight arm, then he bends the arm into contact. I don't recommend him for emulation though, because this is a more complicated stroke.

 

[1HBH Rocks]

Do you currently pronate on the take back (face your palm downwards)? I found this, and the timing of it, to be the trickiest part of the Federer stroke.

Instead, I like Del Potro as a model because he doesn't pronate on the takeback. It's a lot simpler and easy to learn, though I don't think it generates the same power or topspin.

Pronation at the end of the take back, just before the forward swing is the exact movement you WANT to be doing -- it's what splits both types of forehand transition moves into the efficient and inefficient kinds. If you want to generate more spin and swing faster while retaining a much higher level of control, you need to swing forward with your arm set into a prone position.

That movement (pronation) allows you to tap into a stretch-shortening cycle in the muscles responsible for the internal rotation of the shoulder... in short, your arm moves faster around your body if you get that. Every player who doesn't meet this standard will suffer consistency issues when trying to retain control at high power levels -- and that's scientifically established.

Del Potro is an example of player who doesn't fit the bill, although he's more in a third kind of transition movement apparently. But note that even players who use a double bent structure will reach this position. Others will supinate before swinging forward. You must meet the ball with a slightly closed face and your arm will inexorably supinate as you move it forward... if you already begin the movement, you'll have troubles reaching a consistent contact and you might as well not be able to exploit a second stretch-shortening cycle, this time in your forearm pronators, which is responsible for added spin at contact. The point here is that both of these little tweaks can be added to the forehand of any player, even amateur, so long as he has a fundamentally sound basis; if everything's there with the foot stance, the arms and body posture, you only need to add little twitches to make it go from good to great.

 

[user92626]

I don't recommend "learning" a straight arm forehand. It all comes down to your natural bio-mechanics. You can either do it, or you don't.

Do you have a naturally "uncoiling" body type? Or do most of your power come from sudden jerky/snapping motions?

dude, natural tendency only goes so far, then it becomes a skill that needs to be learned, like any other skills. No beginner naturally knows how to serve and in fact serving hard for newcomers is often very injurous.

Any stroke mechanic can be learned, given the right instructions/instructors. The only difference is the speed that stroke is performed. Speed will always be a "problem".

 

[aimr75]

Do you currently pronate on the take back (face your palm downwards)? I found this, and the timing of it, to be the trickiest part

To me, this is the easy part, its the forward swing that is not easy.. given that its not just the straight arm thing, but also employing the WW. This aside, consciously trying to straighten the arm doesnt work and can cause you to lock out the arm or hyper extend it. i would concentrate on maintaining some bend in the arm but hitting through the ball more

 

[connico]

Throwing balls is a great training for serving (a guy that throws like a girl can't serve) however I think here this is not correct.

In a throw you start bent and then extend the arm into the release. In the FH this comes earlier at the end of the transition the arm will already reach full extension. It's more like a cricket bowler but with the bent arm takeback.

The exercise is to only experience the feeling of extension.

 

[aimr75]

Also, with the takeback, you dont actually have to actively pronate your arm for the palm to face the ground.. from the initiation of the swing where you point the racquet up (off hand still on the racquet), you perform the unit turn and then at the completion of the unit turn, the racquet drops into the slot.. you will notice the palm is facing the ground without doing anything

 

[Limpinhitter]

I hit a decent forehand now but i am aware that i have a bit of a bend in my elbow. I know that is not a bad thing but i want to hit a straight arm forehand (want a more aesthetically pleasing forehand and its more effecient anyway, not the point of this thread). So right now i've got a decent double bend going and i want to convert it to straight arm (please dont tell me how stupid this is). So it shouldnt be that hard right considering i already have the basic forehand down.

any tips anyone would like to share?

is it as simple as consciously thinking about keeping the elbow as straight as possible?

what about this push/pull business?

what i want to really know is if the straight arm is a result of doing something else correctly. I worked many hours on the wrist aspect of the forehand. I saw many vidoes of most top pros seemingly bend their wrists back right before they hit their forehands. So i tried to emulate this. It failed badly as i shanked and mis hit a lot of balls. After much experimentation, i realised the wrist snapping back was a result of the tremendous body rotation The racquet was "lagging back" as an effect of inertia. So the top pros were not actually concentrating on "snapping the wrist" back as i had been trying to learn. After realising this, my forehand immediately improved greatly, with the shot becoming very powerful and with great spin.

I want to know if the straight arm component of the forehand is a similar deal

Thanks!

thanks

I don't usually hit a straight arm fh. But, I do sometimes unintentionally straighten my arm when I make contact a bit further in front and away than usual.

 

[Magnetite]

Either get someone to feed you balls, play with a wall and/or ball machine, or just think about doing it while hitting with a practice partner.

Video tape yourself if really want to.

 

[BevelDevil]

Pronation at the end of the take back, just before the forward swing is the exact movement you WANT to be doing

As I said above, yes, the full Federer swing gives more power and topspin. But it is also a more complex stroke. This means it is harder to learn and to groove, especially if the player wasn't pronating on his previous forehand. This is something that shouldn't be ignored when choosing which stroke to learn.

Del Potro is an example of player who doesn't fit the bill, although he's more in a third kind of transition movement apparently.

I'm not clear what you are saying here. So are you think Del Potro isn't a good model?

But note that even players who use a double bent structure will reach this position.

Which position? Are you talking about the "pat the dog" position, where the palm is turned downwards? Guys like Tsonga (who has a pretty textbook modern forehand) don't come near to that. At most it's a very slight pronation.

if you already begin the movement, you'll have troubles reaching a consistent contact

I don't think Delpo supinates on the take back. He simply does not pronate. His supination seems to start at the forward swing.

The point here is that both of these little tweaks can be added to the forehand of any player, even amateur, so long as he has a fundamentally sound basis;

I'm not clear about what tweak you're talking about. Going from a conventional double bend straight to a Federer stoke is a huge change.

As I said in my post above, the Delpo stroke can be used as a transition from a conventional double-bend to a Federer forehand. While using the Delpo stroke, a person can get accustomed to hitting with a straight arm. Then, if he so chooses, he can begin incorporating increasing degrees of pronation on the backswing to eventually arrive at a Federer forehand. Or he can stick with the Delpo forehand.


Ultimately, I think it comes down to how much of a risk OP is willing to take and how much time he's willing to dedicate.

A full Federer stroke has more potential, however getting near that potential will be further in the future (measured in court time), and may never come at all if he doesn't get a feel for it. Only the OP can decide whether this is a risk and commitment worth taking. Although he seems to be a die-hard Fed fan, so I'd guess he'll jump straight into the Fed forehand. But even if this is the case, I think a reasonable way to arrive at the Fed forehand is via Delpo's.

 

[TheCheese]

As I said in my post above, the Delpo stroke can be used as a transition from a conventional double-bend to a Federer forehand. While using the Delpo stroke, a person can get accustomed to hitting with a straight arm. Then, if he so chooses, he can begin incorporating increasing degrees of pronation on the backswing to eventually arrive at a Federer forehand. Or he can stick with the Delpo forehand.

Imo, I think it'd be a better idea to reverse the steps. First start pronating with a double bend, and then add the straight arm by just moving your contact forward.

Also, I'd like to add that grip plays into this. I personally hit with the straight arm and I don't see how it would work with anything more extreme than a SW grip. Personally, I use an extreme-eastern.

 

[ace_pace]

To the post above, Im pretty sure Nadal uses extreme semi western with his straight arm forehand. I think the straight arm forehand can work with more extreme grips its just that the transition between pronation -> supination will be more violent, could possible cause discomfort. Although, unless you're a top spin junkie, theres no point trying to utilise the straight arms inherent ability to create more topspin if your balls have no pace So yeah I think semi-western to eastern would be a good grip range.

BevelDevil is spot on.

If you really want to learn it, be prepared to train and practice for a long time. Best way to tackle it is with small steps.

1. If you don't pronate on the takeback of your forehand with a double bend forehand, learn how to do that and do it fairly consistently.

2. Once step 1 is done, the next step is to practice your footwork so that your contact point is slightly more out in front than usual. As you get more comfortable with it, increment the contact point distance further. This will help with getting used to the positioning of the forehand. This is important because you cant hit a straight arm forehand when the ball is too close.

3. Lastly, learn to relax your arm (not too much) once the backswing has started throughout the stroke. This will cause natural arm extension and wrist being laid back. The wrist is like a hinge, its not consciously controlled.

Theres a thread on Fed's backswing around here by tricky, you should have a look at.

 

[aimr75]

Verdasco is or is close to SW too

 

[TheCheese]

I think it's important if you go look at tricky's posts that you don't get too caught up in mentally trying to force your arm to do all these technically complex sounding maneuvers.

If you're doing it correctly, you should not be forcing your arm to pronate or straighten.

Also, this might help: Taken from http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2012/01/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-4.html

 

[Migelowsky]

I don't usually hit a straight arm fh. But, I do sometimes unintentionally straighten my arm when I make contact a bit further in front and away than usual.

That´s it. After watching videos of myself I noticed that I was hitting a bit close to my body, close to the side and not so far in front , a bit late.
After correcting my contact point I was hitting with a straight arm without doing it on purpose .

 

[DeShaun]

I do not hit straight arm forehands in matches and I no longer attempt to hit them practice, but when I was practicing this stroke, as a possible addition to my repertoire, something that I did that coincided often with my hitting a very nice straight arm forehand was to lead with my chest.
It was almost as if my chest was doing all of the targeting.

 

[formula16]

thanks everyone, not really sure what pronation means but i have a eastern/semi western forehand grip, when i take it back, the face of the racquet which i am using to hit the ball faces the side fence/back. Does that mean i pronate?

 

[TheCheese]

thanks everyone, not really sure what pronation means but i have a eastern/semi western forehand grip, when i take it back, the face of the racquet which i am using to hit the ball faces the side fence/back. Does that mean i pronate?

Pronation is like what you do on your serve.

 

[Magnetite]

You just have to translate all the energy from your legs and trunk, through your shoulder and up your arm into the racket.

If you do that with a modern grip, you'll have a straight arm on contact.

With a more conventional grip, it's not going to happen in the same way.

 

[1HBH Rocks]

Ultimately, I think it comes down to how much of a risk OP is willing to take and how much time he's willing to dedicate.

A full Federer stroke has more potential, however getting near that potential will be further in the future (measured in court time), and may never come at all if he doesn't get a feel for it. Only the OP can decide whether this is a risk and commitment worth taking. Although he seems to be a die-hard Fed fan, so I'd guess he'll jump straight into the Fed forehand. But even if this is the case, I think a reasonable way to arrive at the Fed forehand is via Delpo's.

Federer's forehand isn't the only example of forehand which achieves pronation at the end of the take back. Djokovic, Murray, Nadal, Berdych, Cilic, Safin all do it and they do not all swing with a straight arm, if you notice.

And, seriously, it's more complicated? I told you, you can do like these guys above and ensure the most consistent way you can find to achieve great contact at high speed or, like most people, you supinate. You will do one of the three methods -- I don't know about the third, but I surely know the first one (pronation) is correlated to higher swinging speed and spin production on average. Of course, some compensate the movement and hit more flat with it (Cilic and Berdych), but that's not the point.

Your arm, you see, will supinate in the forward swing. If you don't pronate, you risk opening your racket face too early and players who do that are force to fool around with their racket face to keep it closed at contact. That's a mess and that's complicated to do -- yet most players play this way.

 

[1HBH Rocks]

1.Indeed, Del Potro isn't the best model you can find.

2.Some think about patting the dog, but I don't really care the wording. I am talking about what happens with their forearm as they are about to swing, at the very end of their take back.

3.I know, it's a weird swing. That's why the researcher had put him in a third kind alongside of Agassi. I didn't pay attention to exactly what he was doing; I just know he's not in the optimally efficient kind given the data he piled and that's enough.

4.The tweaks I am talking about involve simple body position at given moment of the stroke. You take an average stroke and you improve it by adding in a few details -- pronation at the end of the take is one; ulnar deviation, wrist flexion and a supine hand position nearby contact that is reversed to a prone position and radial deviation after contact is a second one (that's what people call the wrist snap). Both aren't very hard to implement... most of the time, you need to add them into the movement; the high performance coach who wrote about it and studied it says most of his students don't need to get rid of details that should be out of the swing unlike what most people might think. He says they needed things to be added. The two above details are things to be added.

5.As for your Tsonga, here he is:

He does it too. It's more his elbow and forearm you should look at than his racket as his body position, the ball will make contact with and his intention might change how far the racket faces the ground. If the elbow tries to show its face, there's pronation, even if only mild.

6.I don't think we should use any movement besides our own, but you are being consequent with the above: I said we need to add stuff to make good forehands turn into great forehands... you do need to work on big movements before working on smaller ones and it's indeed a fast and easy change if you know how to teach it right.

7. The same coach resumed what details the best forehands get right that amateurs can learn without being exceptionally gifted themselves.

1) You need to pronate the elbow of your hitting arm before starting the forward swing – to the same extent as the players pictured earlier—to compensate for the natural supination – or opening of the hand causing the palm to face skyward – of the racquet elbow /hand to ensure that you can deliver the racquet face in a closed position – i.e. racquet tilted forward—at impact.
2) You can start to experiment with how steep or how shallow your upward swing path affects the resulting shot. The simplest way to do this is to start experimenting with how far below the impact point you start your forward swing. You might also experiment with the height at which your racquet hand finishes after impact. You may find that you produce more topspin when you shallow out your overall swing path and use a finish lower versus swinging more steeply upwards and finishing high – when the racquet hand finishes up at head-height or higher. And, you should note that this concept effectively runs counter to the “how topspin is produced” paradigm ingrained into the “stroke knowledge” of most tennis players and coaches possess.
3) You need to learn when and how to pronate your hand – or “re-pronate” is the more appropriate description—as you accelerate your racquet through the impact zone. Elbow Pronation in the impact zone is how you can support, stabilize and maintain the forward tilt of the racquet face at impact, especially when impact is made off-center. Elbow Pronation of the racquet arm at FFM and just prior to impact creates maximum racquet speed and acceleration to maximize energy transfer to the ball. In other words, Elbow Pronation plays a crucial role in maximizing both spin production and ball speed.

8. When I explained that it's easier to achieve consistent contact, I meant that your racket will behave this way and open as you swing. If you don't get into this position, you make your life harder for no reason.

In his experience, players who have implemented these advices -- and we're talking about ranked juniors, competitive players -- have seen their top spin production increase by as much as 40% on average and some of the flat hitters have nearly doubled it.

 

[BevelDevil]

....

You've cherry-picked for photos of Tsonga hitting very specific shots.


Here are some other pictures where he is clearly not turning his palm down. Also, note that his racket head has not dropped yet, thus he hasn't begun his forward swing yet:

Tsonga slow motion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CrWFui1jW4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VVCiegIGQY



Based on this video, Agassi normally doesn't turn his palm down either (unless the ball is low, perhaps).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXWks8yvRJQ

 

[Rickson]

I suppose if you need to reach for it, that's fine, but why would you want a straight armed forehand just for a basic forehand?

 

[guitarplayer]

I suppose if you need to reach for it, that's fine, but why would you want a straight armed forehand just for a basic forehand?

This is what I was thinking. Sounds like it would hurt!

 

[aimr75]

This is what I was thinking. Sounds like it would hurt!

it doesnt hurt.. usually there is a slight bend anyway. Guys like Nadal, Verdasco, Fed wouldnt be doing it if it was hurting them

 

[connico]

I suppose if you need to reach for it, that's fine, but why would you want a straight armed forehand just for a basic forehand?

Consistency; Its much easier for kids early on to use straight arm as its easier for the muscle to remember. Its actually easier to replicate and achieve consistency.

From a biomechanic point of view, the longer the extension the more power. Would you rather get hit with a short stick or a long stick? kenetic energy is transfered better if the arm is at full extension at contact.

 

[Cheetah]

Consistency; Its much easier for kids early on to use straight arm as its easier for the muscle to remember. Its actually easier to replicate and achieve consistency.

a straight arm requires a higher level of control and timing than a bent arm and also you need better footwork for a straight arm. and by accounts of ppl i know and from what i read here on tt often a straight arm is harder to learn and harder to achieve consistency with than a bent arm. so i disagree.

Would you rather get hit with a short stick or a long stick?

Would you have more success trying to precisely hit a small, fast moving object moving towards you and curving with a short stick or a long stick?

 

[connico]

a straight arm requires a higher level of control and timing than a bent arm and also you need better footwork for a straight arm. and by accounts of ppl i know and from what i read here on tt often a straight arm is harder to learn and harder to achieve consistency with than a bent arm. so i disagree.



Would you have more success trying to precisely hit a small, fast moving object moving towards you and curving with a short stick or a long stick?

You can disagree thats not and issue. But I don't understand what your trying to say? Everyone should do bent arm because they shouldn't work on their foot work, use a less extension and not try to achieve maximum power?

The reason why I say bent arm is more consistent is because it doesnt vary. A bent arm can very in angle, it can vary during the stroke. Creating inconsistency. So you have to think about swing path and bentness of the arm. A straight arm varies very little.

 

[TheCheese]

Imo, the straight arm actually has more room for adjustment. You aren't forced to hit with a fully straight arm on every shot. If your footwork is a little off or the ball takes a weird bounce, you can naturally change into a more bent position. You see Fed do this sometimes.

 

[Cheetah]

You can disagree thats not and issue. But I don't understand what your trying to say? Everyone should do bent arm because they shouldn't work on their foot work, use a less extension and not try to achieve maximum power?

I said what i'm trying to say clearly in my last post. no need to try to blow it out of proportion or twist it around to make it sound 'controversial' or 'combative' because someone disagrees with you.

The reason why I say bent arm is more consistent is because it doesnt vary. A bent arm can very in angle, it can vary during the stroke. Creating inconsistency. So you have to think about swing path and bentness of the arm. A straight arm varies very little.

'Consistent' means to be able to hit a ball with a good amount of control and placement repeatedly. To do that requires adjustments and that's why a bent arm is easier to achieve consistency with... because you can vary it. if you footwork is off you can compensate easier. if the ball takes a funny hop you can adjust easier. Also it's easier to judge a ball and strike it when it's closer to your body. with a straight arm the contact point is quite a bit further away from the body than bent arm.

Also, i'm guessing you made up the part about 'kids being able to learn a straight arm easier' part. Have you ever seen any studies or experts stating as such? I haven't. If you have then i concede on that part.

If a straight arm was easier to learn, easier to achieve consistency with etc etc don't you think most ppl would be playing with a straight arm? I don't know the exact percentages but i can safely say straight arm players are well below 50%.

 

[Cheetah]

Imo, the straight arm actually has more room for adjustment. You aren't forced to hit with a fully straight arm on every shot. If your footwork is a little off or the ball takes a weird bounce, you can naturally change into a more bent position. You see Fed do this sometimes.

imo it doesn't. With a bent arm you can extend or shorten the arm. With a straight arm you can only change it into a bent arm (which is no longer straight in a lot of cases) (giving a little room for interpretation of straight arm). with a straight arm if your footwork isnt great or the ball takes an unexpected bounce that puts the ball further away from you can't make the straight arm straighter. but with bent arm you are closer to the ball and can extend if need be.

 

[connico]

Snip

To remain consistent and to learn is to do things repetively. Adjusting on the fly to compensate is a bad thing.. you know that right?

So whether you hit with bent arm or a straight arm you still need to work on your foot work and should not be adjusting your arm position on the fly.

Unless your a professional tennis player or a high level tennis player, adjusting on the fly can only lead to disaster.

 

[Cheetah]

To remain consistent and to learn is to do things repetively. Adjusting on the fly to compensate is a bad thing.. you know that right?

So whether you hit with bent arm or a straight arm you still need to work on your foot work and should not be adjusting your arm position on the fly.

Unless your a professional tennis player or a high level tennis player, adjusting on the fly can only lead to disaster.

So which is more difficult to learn and which is done more often for amateur players? Adjusting on the fly or achieving near perfect footwork so adjusting isn't necessary?

if the straight arm is easier to learn / consistent then why are there so many 'how to learn the straight arm threads' and not any 'how to learn bent arm threads? How come an overwhelming majority of amateurs and pros use a bent arm?

And no, i have nothing against a straight arm.

 

[connico]

So which is more difficult to learn and which is done more often for amateur players? Adjusting on the fly or achieving near perfect footwork so adjusting isn't necessary?

if the straight arm is easier to learn / consistent then why are there so many 'how to learn the straight arm threads' and not any 'how to learn bent arm threads? How come an overwhelming majority of amateurs and pros use a bent arm?

And no, i have nothing against a straight arm.

Most videos I see are straight arm videos - you know those how to forehand videos. Most of the kids that I teach are straight arm and its not like im forcing them to do straight arm, its just natural for them. I let them do whats natural to themselves.

Adjusting on the fly is easier to do, but from my experience it doesnt really help people learn because they are consistently adjusting on the fly, and doing stuff to thier swing. I don't encourage a kid to over reach or just crowd his hitting zone and adjust for it. I encourage them to be at the right approximate distance and to deliver the racquet to the contact point.

Foot work doesnt have to be near perfect. Footwork is footwork, you put yourself in the right position to hit the ball. It should come naturally. Once your feet are in the right position your body adjust.

 

[Cheetah]

Most videos I see are straight arm videos - you know those how to forehand videos.

most how to videos on youtube are definitely not straight arm unless you are only watching fed and nadal videos. all the how to vids always mention and demonstrate the double bend structure. In fact I don't think i've ever seen even one how to video that demonstrates by using a straight arm or says 'extend your elbow like this so your arm is straight' unless the video was geared to teaching the straight arm specifically. Do you have any of those videos bookmarked or can you show me one?

how many pros can you name right now that use a straight arm? I'll bet you can't name 5 without doing research. I can name only 4 off the top of my head and 1 or 2 that will occasionally use a straight arm like almagro.

I play tennis at several clubs, public parks and high schools about 5-6 days a week every week all year round. It's rare that i will see a straight arm. When I see someone doing a straight arm usually they are between 15 and 21 and they are trying to copy fed / nadal which is ok but still rare. And when i'm out playing i always look at every player on every court and check out their strokes.

 

[connico]

Do you have any of those videos bookmarked or can you show me one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNrw1V-ODNo&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa-3GStYh_I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOXySV2IWFg

3 examples. I don't endorse them, not the way I would teach a forehand but there isn't much I would endorse on YouTube.

 

[Baloo]

Watch Nadal and Federer...

The reason they hit with a straight arm is that they perform an arm extension in their take back while they pronate their forearm a bit. I've posted pictures of Federer's forehand in a few threads. I'll try to get them as they are commented with the actual anatomical terms which tells you exactly what movements he performs in each pictures.

I used to hit with a straight arm forehand. I spent the whole summer last year figuring out how I would get to hit it a la Federer. Of course, it worked fine. I was blasting the ball really hard and I had tons of spin... I spent so much time working on my footwork and shot placement that I was able to slam almost any ball I could get to. However, the timing and contact were really hard to get right and every other day I would be hitting very averagely. Kudos to my hitting partner who started hitting big himself and getting me into trouble, but it wasn't only about him playing well. It wasn't rare to play two or three great days and then have a poor day... and I had a one handed backhand, not to help! So both of my strokes used to be high maintenance.

But if you say that you have a good forehand right now, why not work on improving what you have instead of trying to change it all over? I recently got enough of trying to maintain a super high level of play to be aggressive all the time. Instead, I work on movements which are easier to duplicate. I have a two handed backhand since three weeks and I must have played a few thousands of them by now -- it's not yet a second forehand, but it evolves greatly. I started using the double bend and a genuine western grip and I'd say I'm hitting about as big as I used to, except with more spin.

And, tactically, instead of trying to end the point early, I think I'll get to build them one shot at a time, knowing I risk not to miss too many of them. If you really want an advice, getting grooved in a simpler movement will pay off in the long term; if you get to stop and play again after a while, your movement risks to be closer to its previous level if it's simpler and, throughout matches, you risk a lot less to ride roller coasters where you will hit either big or fail.

+1
I have straight arm FH technique and when it's "on" it's great when it's "off" it makes life very very frustrating. You don't have to be off by much either.

I would trade for a more consistent bent arm in a heartbeat.

 

[Cheetah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNrw1V-ODNo&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa-3GStYh_I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOXySV2IWFg

3 examples. I don't endorse them, not the way I would teach a forehand but there isn't much I would endorse on YouTube.

The first video he does say 'arm straight away from the body' in the beginning only to emphasize to absolute first timers to keep your arms away from your body while in the ready position and to not have your elbow scraping your ribs when you swing. I've seen all of his videos before. If you watch part 2 where he actually gets around to hitting a forehand you'll see he uses and demonstrates a double bend. He also uses only double bend in his other videos such as this one he has on the crossover step:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdsIFmVfjt0

The instructors in the 2nd video both use bent arm forehands. The one guy was demonstrating one facet of the brushing motion and exaggerating with a weird motion for illustration purposes as the other guy was addressing some point and he made his arm straight for some reason as he was being hand fed balls. It's kind of weird. When they start hitting live balls they are using dbl bend. I've seen all of the videos those 2 have as I am subscribed to both their mailing list and video channel. They both have bent arm forehands and always describe the double bend in all of their videos.
2 examples from them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TrKHZzetpc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X37qJfKoPVc

The 3rd video is a video discussing the technique of Federer and Verdasco! Both straight arm users. It's not a how-to video explaining how to hit a forehand.

 

[Migelowsky]

Article from Essential Tennis on Bent vs Straight arm:


http://essentialtennis.com/problog/2008/06/straight-arm-or-bent-arm-essential/

 

[BevelDevil]

Indeed, Del Potro isn't the best model you can find..

Del Potro isn't the best model for who?

Anyone?

Fed/Nadal may be great models for people who have the time, frequent access to a ball machine, and who can put off the need to play well for many months (years?).

But for many people who are time/resource constrained, or who don't want to be out of competitive action for long, Del Potro's forehand is the most accessible straight-arm forehand.

It may actually be easier to learn than the standard, double-bend modern forehand.

And, as I said before, it offers the option of transitioning to a pronated takeback.

 

[chico9166]

Del Potro isn't the best model for who?

Anyone?

Fed/Nadal may be great models for people who have the time, frequent access to a ball machine, and who can put off the need to play well for many months (years?).

But for many people who are time/resource constrained, or who don't want to be out of competitive action for long, Del Potro's forehand is the most accessible straight-arm forehand.

It may actually be easier to learn than the standard, double-bend modern forehand.

And, as I said before, it offers the option of transitioning to a pronated takeback.

Bevel, why would Del Potro be a good model? I actually think too many club players construct there backswing in a similar fashion to him.

 

[1HBH Rocks]

Del Potro isn't the best model for who?

When you learn a basic movement, you don't necessarily need to be emulating a pro. His take back is pretty lengthy, rather disconnected from his unit turn and he doesn't reach optimal position to swing forward. If anything, it risks to be HARDER to be competitive with that. I told you... the simplest way to ensure a consistent contact with a high power swing is to pronate at the end of the take back -- end of the discussion. It's not harder to pronate or to supinate; what's hard is what you'll have to do with your racket head in the forward acceleration if you don't pronate.