If Djok loses the top ranking despite winning 6-7 titles in 2012, is it a bad system?

[Andres]

Okay, just like last year, but with different scenario.

How many points are defended are meaningless, since we're doing the whole season and whoever gets the most points by the end of the season is who's ranked #1, shall we?

2012:

Djokovic:
Australian Open: W (2000)
Dubai: W (500)
Indian Wells: W (1000)
Miami: F (600)
Belgrade: W (250)
Madrid: F (600)
Rome: W (1000)
Roland Garros: SF (720)
Wimbledon: QF (360)
Canada: W (1000)
Cincinnati: F (600)
USO: W (2000)
Basel: SF (180)
Paris: QF (180)
WTF: RR (200)

Grand total: 11190

Nadal:
Doha: SF (90)
Australian Open: F (1200)
Indian Wells: F (600)
Miami: W (1000)
Montecarlo: W (1000)
Barcelona: W (500)
Madrid: W (1000)
Rome: F (600)
Roland Garros: W (2000)
Queen's: QF (45)
Wimbledon: F (1200)
Canada: R32 (10)
Cincinnatti: QF (180)
USO: F (1200)
Tokyo: F (300)
Shanghai: QF (90)
WTF: W (1100/1300/1500)

Grand total: 12115 / 12315 / 12515

Nadal had the better year and deserves the #1 ranking, despite having one less Slam.

At the Slams:
Djokovic: 5080
Nadal: 5600

At the WTF:
Djokovic: 200
Nadal: 1100 / 1500

At the M1000s
Djokovic: 4980
Nadal: 4390

At the other titles:
Djokovic: 930
Nadal: 1025.

Nothing to support the notion that Djokovic had a better year than Nadal under this hypotetical scenario.

 

[Andres]

I own you loser, I completely own you. Disprove my scenario-
Show me your numbers, loser.

I just did. Twice. Numbers don't lie.

 

[Andres]

And you lost. Nadal takes the number one ranking from Djok in 2012 despite Djok having a 3195 lead in February and Djok winning Player Of The Year with more slams than Nadal and the same number of masters shields.

The 3195 pts lead doesn't mean squat by the end of the year. It's all about points earned during the season. In that scenario, they will be shifting the #1 position a couple of times, most of them betwen Miami and Wimbledon.

In your scenario, Nadal outperforms Djokovic and deserves the year-end #1, thanks to winning the WTF.

 

[FlamEnemY]

Even if Djok does better than Nadal, it will not necessarily be enough.

Excuse me, what?

In your scenario it's clear as day that Nadal did better throughout the year. The turning point is of course the WTF, which is huge compared to, say, Belgrade.

In this scenario, implying having one more title should make Djokoic #1 is the same as saying that WTF = Belgrade.

 

[nadalwon2012]

Excuse me, what?

In your scenario it's clear as day that Nadal did better throughout the year. The turning point is of course the WTF, which is huge compared to, say, Belgrade.

In this scenario, implying having one more title should make Djokoic #1 is the same as saying that WTF = Belgrade.

Hey, Djok won 2 slams. Nadal won ONE slam and the World Tour Finals.

Both players won 3 masters shields each.

Who do you think they will give the Player of the Year award to?

You think Nadal's WTF is bigger than one of Djok's slams? :lol:

 

[Andres]

If you wanna stick to your 3195 lead story, by the time Miami comes, it's 2395 (800 pts shift). By the time Madrid comes, it's 1595 (800 pts shift). By the time Wimbledon ends, Djokovic loses 1640, meaning Nadal is 45 pts ahead around July.

 

[Andres]

Hey, Djok won 2 slams. Nadal won ONE slam and the World Tour Finals.

Both players won 3 masters shields each.

Who do you think they will give the Player of the Year award to?

You think Nadal's WTF is bigger than one of Djok's slams? :lol:

Yes, because Nadal reached 4 slam finals, while Djokovic kneeled down and scored just a mere SF and a QF.

The WTF > Slam SF + QF.

Sorry. Nadal win Player of the Year.

 

[Deleted member 21996]

Oh Andres.. talking sense to a brick wont do any good for you!!!

 

[nadalwon2012]

Yes, because Nadal reached 4 slam finals, while Djokovic kneeled down and scored just a mere SF and a QF.

The WTF > Slam SF + QF.

Sorry. Nadal win Player of the Year.

Not even close. Look at the record books. No Player in history has failed to win Player Of The Year after winning more slams than any other player.

 

[FiveO]

All this stuff about "defending" points is pretty meaningless.

Whoever has had the best 12 months will be number 1. It's really that simple.

Yup. Early on in every year the ebb and flow of points is amplified and distorts the view.

By years all the points are accumulated in the current year thus far more meaningful.

With all these scenarios being floated by the OP not only is Novak's fall drastic, Nadal never suffers an early upset AND seems the only beneficiary Djoko's demise.

When the OP threw in a WTF TITLE it became laughable, especially in an Olympic year, which 4 years ago ostensibly served as the end of Nadal's calendar year. In 2008, after the Olympics, Nadal played only 3 events and a DC tie: the US Open losing to Murray in the SF, Madrid losing to Simon in the SF and Paris losing to Davydenko in the QF. Nadal didn't even show for the WTF in the last Olympic year.

5

 

[FlamEnemY]

^ Plus, Djokovic drops dead at the WTF and wins only a single match to gain 200 pts.

Seriously, there is no way you can call this "better."

 

[Andres]

Not even close. Look at the record books. No Player in history has failed to win Player Of The Year after winning more slams than any other player.

Player of the Year = Year-End #1, meaning, the best player of the year

 

[nadalwon2012]

Yup. Early on in every year the ebb and flow of points is amplified and distorts the view.

By years all the points are accumulated in the current year thus far more meaningful.

With all these scenarios being floated by the OP not only is Novak's fall drastic, Nadal never suffers an early upset AND seems the only beneficiary Djoko's demise.

When the OP threw in a WTF TITLE it became laughable, especially in an Olympic year, which 4 years ago ostensibly served as the end of Nadal's calendar year. In 2008, after the Olympics, Nadal played only 3 events and a DC tie: the US Open losing to Murray in the SF, Madrid losing to Simon in the SF and Paris losing to Davydenko in the QF. Nadal didn't even show for the WTF in the last Olympic year.

5

Ah, so Nadal in 2010 became the first and only man in WORLD HISTORY to win slams on clay, grass, hardcout in a Calendar Year. He also became the first man ever to win 3 straight Masters Shields (which Djok has since duplicated). Guess what else Nadal did that year? Made the final of the WTF, and even took a set from the guy he's never beaten indoors. You are flat-out illogical if you give Nadal no chance of winning the 2012 World Tour Finals.

 

[CocaCola]

:lol: good job Andres. Rankings are fine.

BULLZ1LLA peaking again. I predict a ban within the next two weeks.

 

[nadalwon2012]

Player of the Year = Year-End #1, meaning, the best player of the year

In the scenario we are discussing,
ATP Player of the Year: Djok
Winner of the most titles: Djok
Winner of the most slams: Djok
Winner of the most masters shields: Djok/Nadal tied at 3
Ranked Number One at season's end: Nadal (despite trailing by 3195 in February)

 

[Fate Archer]

Nadal's knees are maxed out, I'm afraid...

By the time the WTF comes his knees will be deteriorated... it was already cracking by sitting in chairs at the very start of the year.

2010 might have been his best chance.

It's sad, but Nadal may never win the WTF... it's just too difficult for him.

 

[nadalwon2012]

Nadal's knees are maxed out, I'm afraid...

By the time the WTF comes his knees will be deteriorated... it was already cracking by sitting in chairs at the very start of the year.

2010 might have been his best chance.

It's sad, but Nadal may never win the WTF... it's just too difficult for him.

That's funny....Nadal just played a 6 hour final, and this photo was taken yesterday-

Sorry.....

 

[FiveO]

Not even close. Look at the record books. No Player in history has failed to win Player Of The Year after winning more slams than any other player.

Yes look at the record books.

1977 Guillermo Vilas won 2 Majors and wasn't Player of the Year, nor did he finish the Year End #1, Borg did. (and there were 3* other one time Major winners that year.)

It's one. But it only takes one when the premise is "No Player".

Also 1989 while Boris Becker won 2 Majors and the others were split between Lendl and Chang. Becker did win the Player of the Year but Becker was never ranked #1 at any time that year.

There were also many years where the four majors were "quartered" and non-Player of the Year had better Major overall performances that year.

5

 

[cknobman]

Number of titles are not as important as WHICH titles they are.

If Novak wins 6 mickey mouse tournaments and 1 GS while Nadal wins 2 GS and say 2 MS and a couple of mickey mouse tournaments then Novak rightfully does not deserve to be #1.

System works fine. Remember rankings are 12 months so it does not mean a rats @ss what happened in 2011 come the end of November.

 

[FiveO]

Ah, so Nadal in 2010 became the first and only man in WORLD HISTORY to win slams on clay, grass, hardcout in a Calendar Year. He also became the first man ever to win 3 straight Masters Shields (which Djok has since duplicated). Guess what else Nadal did that year? Made the final of the WTF, and even took a set from the guy he's never beaten indoors. You are flat-out illogical if you give Nadal no chance of winning the 2012 World Tour Finals.

You're obviously a big Rafa fan. Maybe the biggest. Ever.

I'll be the first to say that anything is possible. However, you're apparently confusing fandom with logic.

Since the first year Nadal qualified for the WTF, 2005 he's not attended twice, was ousted in the RR twice, reached the SF twice and reached one final.

As far as trends go, that final wasn't last year it was two years ago. It's sandwiched between his two ousters in the RR and immediately preceded by a DNA (did not attend).

And being as big a Nadal fanatic as you seem to be you have to know his second half of the year record throughout his entire career, right?

As great a player as Nadal is, and he is. His second halfs are, for a player of his stature....well:

Since 2005 and his arrival at the top of the game Nadal has won a grand total of 5 events after the Wimbledon mid-ish point of the tennis year. 5.

3 MS 1000's, 1 Olympic Gold and 1 Major, the 2010 US Open in seven years.

In 2005 a Canada and Madrid (hardcourt) 1000.
In 2008* Canada and Olympic gold. 2008 is the second time he did not attend the WTF.
And the 2010 US Open title.

A nice career in and of itself for most other player, but for a player of Nadal's calibre?

What's the body of work indicate? Except for 2010, Nadal's performance has consistently fallen off after Wimbledon each year. Whether that's because he's spent himself by then and/or playing conditions don't favor his style of play as much or both, or neither, his play falls off.

Is he trending that toward a WTF title? Well you had to go back 2 years to find his post-Wimbledon performance high didn't you? So no.

Impossible that Nadal pulls one out of the hat in the next WTF or three? No certainly not impossible. Is it likely he will? No, based on his history overall and recent trends, it's not likely that Nadal will and illogical to argue that he is.

5

 

[Cup8489]

That's funny....Nadal just played a 6 hour final, and this photo was taken yesterday-

Sorry.....

Have a good one, nadalwon2012. Sad to see you go.

:twisted:

 

[FiveO]

That was fast. Wow. What was the flashpoint?

5

 

[tacou]

pretty presumptuous OP...what if Novak's 7 titles are 4 slams, 2 masters, and a clean sweep at WTF? I think #1 would be locked up.

Likewise, if Nadal's 3-4 titles include FO, Wimbledon and a couple masters, can't really argue him having a shot at #1

 

[jackson vile]

If Nadal won 6 titles in 2012, he'd gain HUGE.
If Djok won 6 titles in 2012, he'd lose HUGE.

You bring up a good point and that is why a lot of people where fallowing the yearly point system. Where the points start again each year, fresh.

Bad for Novak, Good for Nadal this year.

 

[Deleted member 21996]

You bring up a good point and that is why a lot of people where fallowing the yearly point system. Where the points start again each year, fresh.

Bad for Novak, Good for Nadal this year.

he is very insightfull. too bad he is gone!!

 

[Andres]

I miss him already.

 

[ledwix]

This assumes that Djokovic and Nadal are the only tennis players in the world.....there are other people who will win titles this year.

 

[jackson vile]

he is very insightfull. too bad he is gone!!

I know you are smart enough to know that he will be back yet again, never mind I know who you are. You are NadalWon!

 

[Deleted member 21996]

I know you are smart enough

i am?

to know that he will be back yet again,

yes i am!

never mind

great record, thou i was always more of a Alice in Chains guy...

I know who you are.

yes you do!

You are NadalWon!

actually nadal lost

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

The irony is nadalwon was not really any worse than lolvile.

 

[FlamEnemY]

:lol: good job Andres. Rankings are fine.

BULLZ1LLA peaking again. I predict a ban within the next two weeks.

Well, that was rather quick. You should have said "two hours."

 

[Lotto]

But even if Djok wins more titles than Nadal in 2012, it won't ensure him of keeping the number one ranking. That is odd, and wrong in my opinion.

It depends what kind of titles though! If someone goes out and wins 4 ATP 500 titles, 2 ATP 250 titles and 1 Masters 1000 title they wouldn't be ahead in the rankings of someone with 3 Masters 1000 titles, 1 ATP 500 title and a Grand Slam title... it depends what kind of titles you're talking about!

People can win more titles and still be ranked lower than somebody with less titles!

 

[Deleted member 77403]

What did The Zilla do to get banned?

 

[Povl Carstensen]

All this stuff about "defending" points is pretty meaningless.

Whoever has had the best 12 months will be number 1. It's really that simple.

This. Massive OP fail.

 

[Towser83]

If Nadal won 6 titles in 2012, he'd gain HUGE.
If Djok won 6 titles in 2012, he'd lose HUGE.

yeah but would it be enough? say Novak's 6 titles are 3 slams and 3 masters, and Nadal's are 1 slam and 3 masters. Hell, let's give Nadal 8 titles by giving him 2 500s as well. Novak's titles equal 9000 points and Nada's equal 6000. So Nadal has to make up 3000 points from bettering results in titles he doesn't win, or Novak doing worse in certain events.

Here's how it works, you don't have to defend all the points you had in 2011. Just by the end of 2012 you have to have picked up more points this year then anyone else. It's possible Djokovic might lose the number 1 but reclaim it by the end of the year.

Nadal is also defending many points, but bear in mind that Novak just needs to keep outscoring Nadal. Nadal has gotten closer by making the AO final, but unless these points combine with a portion of last year when Nadal was outscoring Djokovic, Nadal can't get ahead just be improving results and losing in the end to Djokovic.

Last year Djokovic was ahead on points in Australia, IW,Miami, then Nadal makes more points in the weeks for Barcelona and Monte Carlo before Djokovic takes the upper hand in Madrid and Rome, Nadal makes more points at RG, then Djokovic takes more in Wimbledon, Canada, Cinci and the US Open. Nadal then picked up more points in the Aisan swing, Djokovic picking up more in Paris.

What you'll see is there are very few weeks last year where Nadal picked up more points. If he had a month where he outscored Djokovic by a good margin, he would have the chance to pass him just before that point this year when those points would still count. Effectively If Djokovic keeps outscoring Nadal, Nadal can not overtake him because seeing as in 2011 he was outscored nearly every week he has to make it up this year, he can't rely on points from last year too much, he has to wait for Novak to drop points because there are few weeks last year where nadal obtained more points.

Take for instance Federer, with such a strong finish to last year, if he can better his results without even winning, eventually he'll get to a point where he has gained points and still holding a lot of points from the indoor season last year. It's then up to him to defend them but for until then he has a chance to gain a fair amount. Nadal has few weeks where he held a points advantage over Novak so he has to wait for him to drop them.

 

[kishnabe]

:lol: good job Andres. Rankings are fine.

BULLZ1LLA peaking again. I predict a ban within the next two weeks.

LOL, how could you be so right. Trust me he will be back like Rafawon7Garrows......:lol:

 

[kishnabe]

The irony is nadalwon was not really any worse than lolvile.

People took Nadalwon2012 more seriously than lolville.

 

[TopFH]

Watch him come back with this name: Nadal11RGtitles!

 

[Lsmkenpo]

The ranking system has been flawed for years, there should be a limit to how many points a player can make off of each surface. 4000 pts should be the limit. After that, the points should only count half if the player continues to play a bunch of extra events on one surface to point gouge their ranking.

For instance Gaudio was a top 5 player and very rarely ever made it past the 1st or 2nd round of any tournament off of clay in his entire career. Was he really one of the top 5 players in the world? Hell no, he was a top claycourt player whose ranking was inflated by maxing his play on one surface.

There are far too many claycourt points available and too few on surfaces that require more skill such as grass or fast HC.

 

[cork_screw]

Remember last year when Nadal was in a situation where if he had won 2011 Wimbledon he still would have lost the number one ranking?

That kind of scenario could take place this year. Djok is defending 10 titles. Nadal already has gained plenty by reaching the AO final (because he was only defending a QF from last year). If Djok wins 6 or 7 titles this year, it probably won't be enough to keep the number one ranking.

Is there something wrong with the system, for these kind of things to happen? The player who has an amazing year is penalized the next year even if he wins more titles than anyone else. If he doesn't win exactly the same as his amazing year then he can lose the number one ranking.

Would a 2 year ranking system make more sense?

Man, there's some dumb people here. I don't know why you're fixated on the number 6 for djokovic. Whatever he doesn't win is won by somebody else. Are you following? So if those points are spread out throughout the whole field; even if it was split 3 way between federer, murray and nadal; djokovic would still have an advantage because he's already consolidated his win at AO. If Nadal wins out the majority of tournies that djokovic doesn't win, then the math obviously makes sense and he's earned the points that djokovic didn't earn.

Let me make this clear. Djokovic doesn't need to duplicate what he did last year to retain his current ranking. And what titles are you speaking of? If he wins 6 titles that are 500-1000 and loses the grandslams? Well you would need to do the math, and if Nadal wins the french, wimby and USO and Djokovic wins 6 titles that are all lower point figures, then Nadal might have the opportunity to overtake him. The math solves itself, there's nothing wrong with how it's setup. There's just something wrong with how you can't interpret it.

 

[Cup8489]

The irony is nadalwon was not really any worse than lolvile.

NadalAgassi and lolvile are still around..

at least nadalwon2012 didn't insult you immediately if you disagreed with him.

 

[roysid]

Reduce mandatory masters 1000 from 8 to 6. Count only 2 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250. That's it.