In defence of the pusher/counter puncher

[Sardines]

Haha I've had this conversation since I was 12 years old playing the old guys who'd junk ball the hell out of me and ruin my freshly drilled strokes from the academy! Absolutely, you have EVERY right to play any way you can and if I were to meet you in competition, it's on me to beat you.
Tennis is a game of timing. Not all of us are Roger Federers (I can't believe I used that Tomic line), and even Roger needs to practice against certain types of players to get his rhythm into shape. Junk ballers, pushers, grinders etc all depend on the opponent to give them just enough pace to redirect but also live off the errors.
I hated them in the juniorscos after I played one, even though I'd beat them, I'd lose rhythm and timing against 'normal' players. 30+ years later, I still hate 'em because I have to run and work hard for a game I don't get rhythm or much joy from. Took me till almost 15 before I got over the dread of playing people who'd lob almost every service return, or use an unorthodox backhand stroke which mishits a lot but somehow falls into my court, and then drop and/or lob because that's the only shot they have on the backhand.
Seriously though, to save my timing/rhythm and probably sanity, I'd avoid you like the plague socially. Now the thing is if the skill level goes up, and you're hitting consistent topspin deep into the court, and throwing it short slices to draw a short reply and use this tactic to run me down, there's not a lot to complain about.
I do notice players who don't like the pusher types also sometimes don't like their attitude. I've seen some pushers, who see their achievement of beating a higher skilled proper strokes player as something of an excuse to gloat, in social settings. If it were me, a dropshot and a hard drive at them will put an end to those gloating grins! With a fake apology of course!
Bottomline: Play the way you want and if you win, and enjoyed yourself, good on you!

I decided to post this after one of my opponents complained that my style of tennis was no fun and not proper tennis. He is a player who loves pace, so I feed him junk. Neutralised his serve by moonballing it back.

Now my problem with his complaint, is there is nothing in the rules which says I have to give my opponent what they like. If I can beat someone with an easy shot I can make 99% of the time, why wouldn't I do it? If my opponent doesn't want to play that style, they have to force me to change. Take the ball out of the air, hit winners, take control of the rally by hitting well placed shots off the slow ball.

My point is, I can't make you play bad, you do that to yourself.

Now there is the counter puncher/pusher distinction. In my defence I do have proper stroke production and I can hit it hard off both sides if I choose to. It is just I normally go far high percentage shots, hit with lower power because I know I am not going to miss those. F**k it, I will be a pusher and proud.

In defence of the pusher, it does take some skill to play that way. I have to have high shot tolerance, be able to retrieve the ball from all over the court, hit shots that my opponent can't easily attack. I also have to have the ability to change the pace and type of shot I hit to stop my opponent getting any rhythm. I will switch between topspin rally shots, slices and moonballs to throw off my opponents. There is more to tennis than simply hitting the ball hard.

I play this way because my serve is reliable but not powerful. It is a shot to start the rally and doesn't give me control of the point, so I have to have good defence.

My point is, stop complaining about your opponents playing style. If that style annoys, beat them, don't complain it isn't a legit way of playing.

 

[rkw]

It's true that players who can't beat pushers but still believe they are better is delusional.

But pushers can't assume that everyone who complains is simply because they can't beat the pushers. In many cases, except very low level players, it's simply because the players are not patient enough. It's EASY to return high lob with no spin and poor placement with another high lob. What you need is just patience to hit 50+ such shots in a row. Floating slices are easy to return too. But why waste precious time "playing" like that? In real matches, everyone can choose what playing style he likes. But in casual games, pushers are hated for good reasons.

 

[Oval_Solid]

take the ball early or out of the air
let the ball bounce and hit with lots of pace

 

[user92626]

It's true that players who can't beat pushers but still believe they are better is delusional.

But pushers can't assume that everyone who complains is simply because they can't beat the pushers. In many cases, except very low level players, it's simply because the players are not patient enough. It's EASY to return high lob with no spin and poor placement with another high lob. What you need is just patience to hit 50+ such shots in a row. Floating slices are easy to return too. But why waste precious time "playing" like that? In real matches, everyone can choose what playing style he likes. But in casual games, pushers are hated for good reasons.

So not having enough patience is a good excuse and ground for one's complaint for his loss against someone?

Also, it's rather strange to come into a match, lose and then refer to "styles" as a reason for your enjoyment or lack of it.

If you want styles, hire a coach to feed you the exact balls you want.

If you choose to compete in a match, you're supposed to hate, get uncomfortable with opponent's styles, ways of his playing.

I have never lost to someone whose style I feel very comfortable with and loving it.

 

[GeoffHYL]

Pushers can be good players. There was a pusher on my HS tennis team. He was a year ahead of me (SR. vs. me, a JR.). I couldn't beat him even though I was bigger and stronger than he was. He rarely hit with power, but was extremely consistent, very few UE's and only a few forced errors. He would get to most of my shots and hit a medium pace ball. I would get impatient, try to attack with an approach shot, and get passed 75% of the time. His accuracy on the run was good enough that he didn't need a lot of pace on passing shots, he would just place them exactly where you couldn't get to them.

 

[user92626]

Pushers can be good players. There was a pusher on my HS tennis team. He was a year ahead of me (SR. vs. me, a JR.). I couldn't beat him even though I was bigger and stronger than he was. He rarely hit with power, but was extremely consistent, very few UE's and only a few forced errors. He would get to most of my shots and hit a medium pace ball. I would get impatient, try to attack with an approach shot, and get passed 75% of the time. His accuracy on the run was good enough that he didn't need a lot of pace on passing shots, he would just place them exactly where you couldn't get to them.

Actually the way they're described in this place, pushers are really good players. Seemingly a good full level above their opponents.

Take your experience for example, your "pusher" had such good and fast footwork that he would get to most of your shots which no doubt were "nonpushing" fast, right?

Then, the pusher didn't need alot of power to hit back to you and destroyed you.


(Frankly this sounds like me playing against 65+ elder men )

 

[GeoffHYL]

Actually the way they're described in this place, pushers are really good players. Seemingly a good full level above their opponents.

Take your experience for example, your "pusher" had such good and fast footwork that he would get to most of your shots which no doubt were "nonpushing" fast, right?

Then, the pusher didn't need alot of power to hit back to you and destroyed you.


(Frankly this sounds like me playing against 65+ elder men )

He wasn't particularly fast, but had good anticipation and was fast enough. Very smart player. He wouldn't destroy me, but would win 6-4, 6-4, or similar score.

 

[jm1980]

Ah these threads.

Here is my explanation of the "not fun" pusher thing. In my league, there is a guy who only hits the ball 10 feet over the net with no pace and minimal spin. Even in doubles he lobs nearly every shot. Everyone hates playing him...those who lose, and those who win. I played 6 sets against the guy and he won 3 games total in my league. I told the guy running my league that I never want to play him again. Similarly, guys who give me very competitive matches have lost to him or barely beat him. They also never want to play him again. So now do you get it? It's not JUST the "I can't beat him" thing. It's a ridiculous, purely passive style of play that goes against the point of playing tennis for fun. You can do this all you want, and at 3.5 levels you can win plenty...I faced many before being bumped to 4.0 last year...but I will never ask you for your number to play after the match, and if people ask me how you play, I'll say "don't play him."

So you make the choice, moonball pusher.

What if the guy's idea of fun is to repeatedly hit the ball 10 feet over the net?

 

[user92626]

He wasn't particularly fast, but had good anticipation and was fast enough. Very smart player. He wouldn't destroy me, but would win 6-4, 6-4, or similar score.

I don't know how fast is fast.

But getting to most balls by nonpushing, awesome ball bashers is fast for all intents and purposes. Right?

 

[5263]

good points, but I wouldn't confuse a pusher with a counter puncher....

 

[zaph]

It's true that players who can't beat pushers but still believe they are better is delusional.

But pushers can't assume that everyone who complains is simply because they can't beat the pushers. In many cases, except very low level players, it's simply because the players are not patient enough. It's EASY to return high lob with no spin and poor placement with another high lob. What you need is just patience to hit 50+ such shots in a row. Floating slices are easy to return too. But why waste precious time "playing" like that? In real matches, everyone can choose what playing style he likes. But in casual games, pushers are hated for good reasons.

They still lost, so I don't see the difference.

 

[rkw]

So not having enough patience is a good excuse and ground for one's complaint for his loss against someone?

Also, it's rather strange to come into a match, lose and then refer to "styles" as a reason for your enjoyment or lack of it.

If you want styles, hire a coach to feed you the exact balls you want.

If you choose to compete in a match, you're supposed to hate, get uncomfortable with opponent's styles, ways of his playing.

I have never lost to someone whose style I feel very comfortable with and loving it.

"Having insufficient patience AND being unable to attack weak shots" deserves losing in a match. If the loser goes one step further and still believes he is better than the pusher, I'd call him delusional.

However, fun is a purely subjective feeling. I, and probably many other tennis players, don't like to hit 50+ lobs with no power and spin. In a "real" match, both players can make their opponent as miserable, angry, frustrated as possible in order to win. But in a casual, friendly match, we have the rights to enjoy the game because we spend money and time on it. Even if I'm inferior in term of match result, I have the right to dislike the playing style of the pusher and complain against it. Of course the next step is to find way to defeat the pusher. It's in fact pretty simple indeed.

 

[user92626]

However, fun is a purely subjective feeling. I, and probably many other tennis players, don't like to hit 50+ lobs with no power and spin. In a "real" match, both players can make their opponent as miserable, angry, frustrated as possible in order to win. But in a casual, friendly match, we have the rights to enjoy the game because we spend money and time on it. Even if I'm inferior in term of match result, I have the right to dislike the playing style of the pusher and complain against it. Of course the next step is to find way to defeat the pusher. It's in fact pretty simple indeed.

The problem with your line of reasoning is ...if you think it's ok to bring in "purely subjective feelings" and you "have the right" to arbitrary things, then the next guys will be permitted to do the similar. Bring in his crazy subjective feelings and rights. Just a matter of short time, too many crazy craps will destroy any gatherings, and you have no ground to stop them. You'll end up with no tennis, defeating the purpose.





I only look for the common requirement which is tennis and tennis played by tennis rules (in, out, errors).

Whatever incidentally attached to it is mostly irrelevant to me. I advocate tolerance. Laughs, opponent's frustration, noise, styles, racket throwing, unless really really out of this world crazy, usually don't affect me. Yet, at my court I see all the time ...this guy can't play with that guy because of something, ad infinitum.

 

[nicklane1]

I used to hate playing pushers. I didn't get bored, just frustrated that I couldn't put them away. Eventually, I started pushing too. Plus they usually win. Now, I don't mind playing them. Probably because I changed my forehand to hit with more topspin, and think my way through a match a little bit better. I still lose sometimes, but I get to groove my strokes against soft balls, and I have confidence to put away short balls.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I used to hate playing pushers. I didn't get bored, just frustrated that I couldn't put them away. Eventually, I started pushing too. Plus they usually win. Now, I don't mind playing them. Probably because I changed my forehand to hit with more topspin, and think my way through a match a little bit better. I still lose sometimes, but I get to groove my strokes against soft balls, and I have confidence to put away short balls.

And your game is now better because you had to learn how to deal with that style! Good on ya, mate!

 

[nicklane1]

And your game is now better because you had to learn how to deal with that style! Good on ya, mate!

Yup!

 

[undecided]

Good stuff. I wouldn't call you a pusher by any stretch of the definition: you're intelligently aggressive, you pick your spots [instead of just hitting it back into the middle], and you know when to pull the trigger.

I'm betting those that call you a pusher A) hit harder [but less consistently]; and B) lose to your style more often than not.

I think he is a high level pusher the only difference between him and the plain vanilla pushers is that he has finishing shots. The majority of his rally balls are sent to the middle of the court. Not saying that is bad but I would still consider it pushing.

 

[tlm]

I think he is a high level pusher the only difference between him and the plain vanilla pushers is that he has finishing shots. The majority of his rally balls are sent to the middle of the court. Not saying that is bad but I would still consider it pushing.

Ive had some opponents call me a pusher, but that was only from guys that lost the match. I never hear that from the guys that beat me.

 

[E46luver]

i saw utr9 pusher hit ball 20 feet over the net on every ball
he won his match against power player

 

[dman72]

What if the guy's idea of fun is to repeatedly hit the ball 10 feet over the net?

Aiming at the T? Then he should get a ball machine and hit the ball 10 feet over the net to the t against that and not waste my time.

 

[undecided]

Ive had some opponents call me a pusher, but that was only from guys that lost the match. I never hear that from the guys that beat me.

What kind of game beats yours? S&V?

 

[ubercat]

There s a guy who often wins our comp. Plays this way out of choice. Has an allcourt game but suckers u into long moon ball rallies. I always lose close matches with him because I run out of patience. Very hard to beat because he s quick and has good defence and offensive shots when he s in position. Top of my comps probably 4.5. I m working on my angled slice and overheads. Unfortunately I'm too blind at night under the crappy Melbourne Park lights for netplay to be an option

 

[tlm]

What kind of game beats yours? S&V?

Guys with big serves and guys that hit big right away give me trouble, plus a player that is real good at net rushing can give me trouble. I’m a rhythm player and I like to work into a point so guys that rush me give me trouble.

 

[user92626]

Guys with big serves and guys that hit big right away give me trouble, plus a player that is real good at net rushing can give me trouble. I’m a rhythm player and I like to work into a point so guys that rush me give me trouble.

Do you tend to lose against a grinder who doesn't necessarily hit big but grind with you to death -- either you get too tired and lose a step or he ends it with a smartly placed ball? You have the kind of match often?

 

[tlm]

Do you tend to lose against a grinder who doesn't necessarily hit big but grind with you to death -- either you get too tired and lose a step or he ends it with a smartly placed ball? You have the kind of match often?

Not very often, I love to grind so I can usually outlast my opponents but I have faced a few that were better at that style but not many.

 

[E46luver]

There s a guy who often wins our comp. Plays this way out of choice. Has an allcourt game but suckers u into long moon ball rallies. I always lose close matches with him because I run out of patience. Very hard to beat because he s quick and has good defence and offensive shots when he s in position. Top of my comps probably 4.5. I m working on my angled slice and overheads. Unfortunately I'm too blind at night under the crappy Melbourne Park lights for netplay to be an option

moonball only works at 3.0 level

 

[ubercat]

Yeah tell that to all the good players this guy beats. U have much to learn grasshopper.

 

[Bender]

If he thinks you aren't playing tennis, ask him what sport he thinks you're playing.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

If he thinks you aren't playing tennis, ask him what sport he thinks you're playing.

"[pauses for a few seconds] Well...it's not real tennis."

"But we're using tennis racquets, tennis balls, a tennis court, and the rules of tennis."

"I don't care. It's not the way you're supposed to play." [walks off in a huff, determined to find someone with "proper" strokes <whom he can beat>]

 

[E46luver]

trick question pusher does not need defense he has won the match only losers complain about pusher
real tennis means winning the point

 

[BetaServe]

"[pauses for a few seconds] Well...it's not real tennis."

"But we're using tennis racquets, tennis balls, a tennis court, and the rules of tennis."

"I don't care. It's not the way you're supposed to play." [walks off in a huff, determined to find someone with "proper" strokes <whom he can beat>]

"Define real"