Is double pulling bad?

[Irvin]

Watch the video at notice the tension on one string and two strings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO7lYd69V9E&feature=related

Irvin

 

[CDestroyer]

A double pull gives you half of what you just pulled on both sides.

 

[Irvin]

No in that video he is pulling two strings at once in a different manner that what you are thinking. He has 50 on the direct mains and 3 pounds less on the other.

Irvin

 

[uk_skippy]

Interesting find Irvin.

I've watched the other videos too, and the whole set looks like they're doing various tests and have a special jig to do so.

I'd say in short, that double pulling is bad as you won't get the right tension on each string, but double pulling ends up being a lot closer than maybe we thought.

It's also difficult to know exactly what they're testing for and why.

Regards

Paul

 

[Ronaldo]

Interesting find Irvin.

I've watched the other videos too, and the whole set looks like they're doing various tests and have a special jig to do so.

I'd say in short, that double pulling is bad as you won't get the right tension on each string, but double pulling ends up being a lot closer than maybe we thought.

It's also difficult to know exactly what they're testing for and why.

Regards

Paul

Looks initially like they are checking the calibration of the machine. And how quickly the tension drops after clamping. By double pulling do you mean two strings at once?

 

[Irvin]

Interesting find Irvin.

I've watched the other videos too, and the whole set looks like they're doing various tests and have a special jig to do so.

I'd say in short, that double pulling is bad as you won't get the right tension on each string, but double pulling ends up being a lot closer than maybe we thought.

It's also difficult to know exactly what they're testing for and why.

Regards

Paul

I thought the same thing Paul. I watched the other videos too and found them very interesting. Did you notice when he pulled the center mains and crosses with the machine set at 50 the tension on the load cell was very close? When he pulled at an angle the greater the angle bending around the frame the lower the tension. It is almost like when you string a racket without even knowing it you are proportionately stringing the racket? That being true when you string proportionately lowering the tension on the shorter strings you double compensating.

I agree double pulling is not good. But it brings up another point. When you pull tension and clamp there is some drawback usually always. When you pull the next string how can all the drawback go away if you are pulling less tension on the next string and there is some loss from friction around the frame between the strings.

Irvin

 

[Irvin]

Looks initially like they are checking the calibration of the machine. And how quickly the tension drops after clamping. By double pulling do you mean two strings at once?

Initally they pull tension on 1RM and check it and there is very little difference. Then he had the load cell on a main on one side and pull the main on another side. So by double pulling here I am talking about tensioning one string that is pulling anther. Then he went all the way up to tensioning 4 strings with no clamp on any string between the load cell and the tensioner.

Irvin

 

[Irvin]

All this begs another question. If the string tension is lowered when you pull at an angle around the frame what happens when you use the brake when stringing a Prince racket. When you use your brake for those top crosses which are normally pulled at lower tension because of the bend at frame you are now pulling at full tension. So the top half of your frame is strung much tigher than the lower half.

Irvin

 

[uk_skippy]

I thought the same thing Paul. I watched the other videos too and found them very interesting. Did you notice when he pulled the center mains and crosses with the machine set at 50 the tension on the load cell was very close? When he pulled at an angle the greater the angle bending around the frame the lower the tension. It is almost like when you string a racket without even knowing it you are proportionately stringing the racket? That being true when you string proportionately lowering the tension on the shorter strings you double compensating.

I agree double pulling is not good. But it brings up another point. When you pull tension and clamp there is some drawback usually always. When you pull the next string how can all the drawback go away if you are pulling less tension on the next string and there is some loss from friction around the frame between the strings.

Irvin

Agreed about the change of angle and reducing the tension.

All this begs another question. If the string tension is lowered when you pull at an angle around the frame what happens when you use the brake when stringing a Prince racket. When you use your brake for those top crosses which are normally pulled at lower tension because of the bend at frame you are now pulling at full tension. So the top half of your frame is strung much tigher than the lower half.

Irvin

I think that the issue with Prince racquets has always been known from the get-go. Although it was accepted that using a boomerang produced an even lower tension.

As far as I see it, the most important word in stringing is consistency. Plus, we all work from a reference point e.g. 55lbs tension pulled. We then make adjustments up or down according to player/conditions etc.

I also see a sliding scale of how accurate a stringjob can be. From, say, no good upto 100% accurate. With the use of different machines & stringers one will achieve a level towards the 100% accurate end, but never get to 100%. There will always be some loss somewhere, even if its the small amount when pulling the string around a bend. I'd almost go to say that were 100% ever achieved it wouldn't work because we as players couldn't handle it. But then again, we'd adjust the tension downwards to something we can use.

However, I go back to my earlier point, we all work from a reference point. If I had a 'bad' string job (say the stringer double pulled everything) and it was too loose, I'd go back and say "string it tighter". They would (using the same method) and we'd probably end up at the result I'd want.

Regards

Paul

 

[rufusbgood]

I take it you guys don't see many racquetball racquets.

 

[Irvin]

^^I have one friend that I string racketball rackets for. I told him to never mention to any of his friends I can string racketball racket though.

Irvin

 

[rjw]

Agreed about the change of angle and reducing the tension.



I think that the issue with Prince racquets has always been known from the get-go. Although it was accepted that using a boomerang produced an even lower tension.

As far as I see it, the most important word in stringing is consistency. Plus, we all work from a reference point e.g. 55lbs tension pulled. We then make adjustments up or down according to player/conditions etc.

I also see a sliding scale of how accurate a stringjob can be. From, say, no good upto 100% accurate. With the use of different machines & stringers one will achieve a level towards the 100% accurate end, but never get to 100%. There will always be some loss somewhere, even if its the small amount when pulling the string around a bend. I'd almost go to say that were 100% ever achieved it wouldn't work because we as players couldn't handle it. But then again, we'd adjust the tension downwards to something we can use.

However, I go back to my earlier point, we all work from a reference point. If I had a 'bad' string job (say the stringer double pulled everything) and it was too loose, I'd go back and say "string it tighter". They would (using the same method) and we'd probably end up at the result I'd want.

Regards

Paul

Unless the theory that double pulling and/or overstretching effectively removes some of the elasticity from the string, in which case the string would never play like some might expect.

I use the word SOME loosely.

 

[Ronaldo]

Unless the theory that double pulling and/or overstretching effectively removes some of the elasticity from the string, in which case the string would never play like some might expect.

I use the word SOME loosely.

Would not pre-stretching provide the same stiff feeling? Pre-stretch Alu Power

 

[uk_skippy]

Unless the theory that double pulling and/or overstretching effectively removes some of the elasticity from the string, in which case the string would never play like some might expect.

I use the word SOME loosely.

Not sure what you're saying in reference to one of my paragraphs. Please expand.

Thanks

 

[Power Player]

I only double pull to start mains.

Irvin, if I start the EXO crosses your way with no brake or boomerang tool used, does the tension really need to be adjusted higher or is it just needing adjustment due to the boomerang?

 

[uk_skippy]

I take it you guys don't see many racquetball racquets.

I don't see enough, but then its not that big here in the UK.

More rqts=More money

Regards

Paul

 

[Tennishacker]

Double pulling is bad for strings, especially multi, gut and most soft strings.
(string deformation from tensioner)

That said, racquet stringing is all relative. Whatever machine you use, string, style of stringing method you'll end up with string tension that you can duplicate over and over.

 

[uk_skippy]

Unless the theory that double pulling and/or overstretching effectively removes some of the elasticity from the string, in which case the string would never play like some might expect.

Would not pre-stretching provide the same stiff feeling? Pre-stretch Alu Power

There's double pulling - puling 2 strings at once; and double pulling - pulling the same string twice. I think that you are referring to the latter which in effective is pre-stretching/over-stretching.

The stringer in the video is doing the former.

Regards

Paul

 

[Irvin]

I only double pull to start mains.

Irvin, if I start the EXO crosses your way with no brake or boomerang tool used, does the tension really need to be adjusted higher or is it just needing adjustment due to the boomerang?

When you start your mains you pull two strings at once. When you double pull it is like putting a starting camp on 1LM and pulling on 1RM to pull full tension on two strings at once. Your way is pull half tension on each.

I chased this 50/50 thing all over the place. I was told by the head Prince stringer that he uses the 50/50 method. He said Babolat brought so I went to Babolat. I ended up talking with Jason Costello who said when Babolat came out with the 50/50 pattern it was originally meant to keep the freshest gut in the center of the frame for the crosses. What he was talking about is a 1 piece 50/50 method. In a one piece 50/50 method you center 1 set of string with half the string on each side of center. When you finished the mains (either at the throat or the head) to run the tails to the center of the racket. For an 18 mains racket you use one side to run the top 9 crosses and the other side to run the bottom 9 crosses. This is an example of a 1 piece 50/50 pattern:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Mr10sStringer?feature=mhee#p/u/38/Hs6r8wZHPUk

It was debatable whether you should string the top half the crosses first then the bottom half or string two crosses on top then two on the bottom and continue rotating back and forth until you were done. The head stringer at Prince say it takes stress of the four corners of a racket because you are not tensioning 5 strings in the top two corners of the racket one after another. Those five would be mains 7 and 8 and the top three crosses. That area is where many frames fail.

At the time that pattern (one piece 50/50) could be used to string any racket with one piece of string and was approved by the USRSA for all rackets. The problem is with this pattern you had a lot of string on the outside of the frame so it was determined necessary to increase tension 4 to 5 lbs on the first few cross above and below center.

You can use that pattern on a Prince racket with O ports on the side. You must use two pieces of string and center the cross string in the center of the racket. Since now there is no long strip of string on the outside of the frame there isn't a need to increase tension.

The stringer at Prince told me if stringing all the top crosses worked for me there was no problem with it. BUT he led me to believe I should start in the center string two top crosses then two bottom cross back to the top then the bottom only two on either side at a time.

Now comes my dilemma. I have fixed swivel clamps dedicated to only one side of the racket. So to string O ported rackets I start my crosses now like I do my mains with the Yusuki method initially clamping the bottom most center cross with fixed clamp and a starting clamp on the outside of the frame. Then pull the top center main and clamp it with the other fixed clamp. Then re-tension the bottom center cross and move the fixed clamp in to the frame so I have full tension on 2 crosses. Then tension another cross on the top of center. Now I tension the lower center cross and move the clamp down on that side. Tension the next lower main and hold that with a flying clamp. Move back to the top and use the two fixed clamp to string two more crosses on top down to the bottom half and use the flying clamp for the next to crosses on the bottom. So used fixed clamps like I have requires me to do a clamp dance to continue to rotate.

If you have glide bar clamps that span back and forth to either side it is easier or if you use flying clamps.

Hope that make sense. I should do a video on that but the last two O Port rackets I strung I was requested to use the boomerang. As a matter of racket the customer brought his own with him.

Hope this all makes sense.

Irvin

 

[Power Player]

It does...I have glide bar fixed clamps.

The first attempt I made with the EXO was to do it like you do..yusuki with starting clamp on bottom most cross, fixed clamp on same cross, opposite side. I then tension the upper cross and lock with other clamp. I continue to tension each cross until the top half is finished and tie off, I then come back down and clamp off the middle main, pull tension on the cross with the starting clamp and clamp.

I am starting to think that this is not the proper way to do it..lol.

My second attempt I used the boomerang and it worked, but the tension was lower than I expected.

 

[Irvin]

Yes that stands to reason. The more friction you have the more tension loss you have. When you use the boomerang your string must bend around the leading edge of the boomerang then around the frame and then around the trailing edge of the boomerang before it ever reaches the outside main. With the boomerang in place you cannot clamp as close to the frame as you would like because the boomerang is in the way. When you pull tension on the next mains there is a lot of slack between the frame the your last clamp. You then pull tension around the leading edge of the boomerang, the frame, the trailing edge of the boomerang, 16 mains strings and then make a 180 degree turn. How much tension is left to tension the last 10% of that previous cross string?

I can understand how tension is lost. If you have the ability to hold tension on 98% of the previous cross because you can clamp closer the the frame without the boomerang in the way how can it not be tighter?

Irvin

 

[Power Player]

You think I should string about 5#s tighter than normal on the crosses when using the boomerang?

 

[Irvin]

You think I should string about 5#s tighter than normal on the crosses when using the boomerang?

No if you want to use a boomerang use it but keep your tensions the same. If you want a stiffer or lower SBS raise or lower your tension. That now is my opinion if you want to change it by all means if it is your racket.

I would never raise tension on mains, crosses, or tie off strings by some arbitrary number.

Irvin

 

[uk_skippy]

Irvin, I asked a fellow stringer who is Japanese to tell what was happening in the video. Here is his response -

"This is verifying the shortage of tensions by return of a machine clamp part. (tension loss)
Those who are talking are the president of TOYOZOUKI which is manufacturing the machine of YONEX.
I think that this phenomenon happens to all the existing machines.
Therefore, the relation of tession of main and cross is important."

I have not asked any further questions to him as I felt that we only needed to know what was happening in the video.

Hopes this sheds some light on the matter.

Regards

Paul

 

[Irvin]

Thanks Paul I thought it was something like that but not sure. Anyway I have purchased a handing digitial scale and plan to do my ouwn testing when I can figure out how I am going to mount the scale around the frame.

Here is what I know so far just messing around. With my Wise set to 60 lbs on a single pull I read 60 lbs +/- 0.4 as the tension relaxes and pulls again so I assumed my pulling force is accurate. When I double pull the tension on the farthest string drops to 44 lbs which is more than I would have thought. So double pulling results in a tension loss of 33%. Because of different amounts of frame friction for different strings I would imagine that may vary. The string I tested with was Forten Nylon which is a 15 guague and does not slide well through the grommets.

I plan to do a lot more playing around with it and I will let you know the results.

Irvin

 

[coachrick]

^^I have one friend that I string racketball rackets for. I told him to never mention to any of his friends I can string racketball racket though.

Irvin

Wise words, my friend!

 

[Irvin]

I do not mind stringing racketball racket but I prefer not too. If I did I would charge more.

Irvin