Sunshineanderson44
New User
Oh ok, too far away even if you were a pro. Sounds like you have a gift.
Is it time for this 2.5 to quit tennis?
- Thread starter Sunshineanderson44
- Start date
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
Oh, dear.
It sounds like you got off to a bad start. Group lessons and group clinics with random pros and random students won’t teach you anything. Having done those things, of course you feel like you should be able to play. But if you have no technique, of course more experienced players will beat you.
I think you haven’t been able to give tennis a fair chance. I suspect if you could find a good coach and a good way to practice, you would start to enjoy it.
Can you commit the time and resources for two years? Meaning, audition a few coaches, pick one, and take a private lesson weekly or every other week As your budget allows? And find another beginner and practice for 2 hours a week? If so, I feel confident you will improve. Skip league tennis until you get your strokes worked out some.
And to the extent you can work on strength and fitness, work that into the mix.
Good luck. I started as a 2.5, and 16 years later almost all of my friends are tennis friends. It really is a lovely sport.
It sounds like you got off to a bad start. Group lessons and group clinics with random pros and random students won’t teach you anything. Having done those things, of course you feel like you should be able to play. But if you have no technique, of course more experienced players will beat you.
I think you haven’t been able to give tennis a fair chance. I suspect if you could find a good coach and a good way to practice, you would start to enjoy it.
Can you commit the time and resources for two years? Meaning, audition a few coaches, pick one, and take a private lesson weekly or every other week As your budget allows? And find another beginner and practice for 2 hours a week? If so, I feel confident you will improve. Skip league tennis until you get your strokes worked out some.
And to the extent you can work on strength and fitness, work that into the mix.
Good luck. I started as a 2.5, and 16 years later almost all of my friends are tennis friends. It really is a lovely sport.
Sunshineanderson44
New User
I really do love the sport and I can commit to two years. I think I've found a great coach in the female lefty I referenced earlier. For the practice, though, wouldn't I need three other beginners to practice with since I play doubles? My once a week group is mostly beginners, but sometimes a 4.0 will drop in and give us great tips. Those beginners think I'm great since I'm more advanced than them.
I've tried my hand at slicing a little bit. The women in this league I'm in seem obsessed with it -- one of them kept slicing the ball when we were doing short court warm-ups. I'll have to play out this short season with both league teams.
What level are you now, if you don't mind me asking?
stapletonj
Hall of Fame
First, you have to get worse before you get better. Embrace this. This is not pickleball. Tennis is a high skill sport. running is a low skill port. golf is a high skill game. (no offense to either, I like and do both running and golf!) tennis is both.
There are many people who picked up the game and developed "emergency-out-of-position" shots that work at 2.5 most of the time but get you absolutely destroyed at any level above 2.5. You have to abandon them, and that means you will dump a lot of shots into the net trying to do it right instead of "shoveling it over on more time". But after a while, the time you used to hit the "shovel it over one more time" shot that set up the higher level player to cram it down your throat becomes the time you hit the pretty good shot that forces the 3.0 or 3.5 player to hit a defensive shot or miss altogether.
Second, understand that there are several levels of learning a shot before it becomes something you can use in a match.
this is true for every diff. shot.
shadow swing
coach drops ball in the hitting zone right beside you
coach feeds you easy consistent sitters from a few feet away
coach feeds you easy consistent sitters from just behind the net
you hit with a ball machine set to put the ball in one place every single time
coach feeds you while he/she is behind the baseline
coach hits different shots to you, but about every 2nd or 3rd ball, hits this shot to you
you work on the shot with the ball machine set to throw diff balls at you
you start to incorporate this shot into hitting sessions with your partners (i.e., practice)
The gap between each of these steps might be hours, or it might be months. hang in there, it will come.
only then will the shot start to fall in place when you use it even in friendly sets.
The final mastery of the shot comes when you are able to use it in a league or tournament match.
There are many people who picked up the game and developed "emergency-out-of-position" shots that work at 2.5 most of the time but get you absolutely destroyed at any level above 2.5. You have to abandon them, and that means you will dump a lot of shots into the net trying to do it right instead of "shoveling it over on more time". But after a while, the time you used to hit the "shovel it over one more time" shot that set up the higher level player to cram it down your throat becomes the time you hit the pretty good shot that forces the 3.0 or 3.5 player to hit a defensive shot or miss altogether.
Second, understand that there are several levels of learning a shot before it becomes something you can use in a match.
this is true for every diff. shot.
shadow swing
coach drops ball in the hitting zone right beside you
coach feeds you easy consistent sitters from a few feet away
coach feeds you easy consistent sitters from just behind the net
you hit with a ball machine set to put the ball in one place every single time
coach feeds you while he/she is behind the baseline
coach hits different shots to you, but about every 2nd or 3rd ball, hits this shot to you
you work on the shot with the ball machine set to throw diff balls at you
you start to incorporate this shot into hitting sessions with your partners (i.e., practice)
The gap between each of these steps might be hours, or it might be months. hang in there, it will come.
only then will the shot start to fall in place when you use it even in friendly sets.
The final mastery of the shot comes when you are able to use it in a league or tournament match.
2.5 or 4.5... doesn't matter, we both suck (relative to the pros/college/up coming juniors/etc...)
things i get out of it:
* beats running to stay in shape, maybe i'm part dog, and just have the prey drive that loves small moving things
* social, you have to play with somone usually (wall excluded)
* satisfies my ocd (i love bashing baseline cc's all day)
* easier to overcome opponents with raw physical talents with technique/timing/tactics/strategy (unlike basketball, football, etc... where size matters more)
IMO only time to throw in the towel for any recreational activity, is when you stop enjoying the process.
It all starts with the grip. First, decide on which grips you will use for forehand and backhand and how you will transition between them, and use Continental for the rest. Grip is how you hold the racket. It is amazing how many players till the 3.5 level don't even know how to hold the racket, or can prevent it from twisting and wobbling in their palms.
Next after the grip is the stance. Learn about open, semi open and neutral stances (real closed stance with inward foot forward)is hardly used these days).
Then comes the swing path.
You can learn all this from the Internet and practice by hitting against a wall. Then start playing with 10-and-under balls with a compassionate partner on a regular tennis court, but only service line to service line. You should be able to hit the ROG balls in increasing order with control on the mini court on backhand and forehand sides for at least 10 times without making a mistake. Use the grips and stances you have learnt and an abbreviated version of the swing path.
Then you are ready to go full court with a regular ball.
You should do this at your own pace, not in clinics and lessons dancing to a coach's words and picking up balls every 15 minutes. You have to yourself feel every ball as it leaves your racket and build up a memory of what swing produces what kind of output.
Next after the grip is the stance. Learn about open, semi open and neutral stances (real closed stance with inward foot forward)is hardly used these days).
Then comes the swing path.
You can learn all this from the Internet and practice by hitting against a wall. Then start playing with 10-and-under balls with a compassionate partner on a regular tennis court, but only service line to service line. You should be able to hit the ROG balls in increasing order with control on the mini court on backhand and forehand sides for at least 10 times without making a mistake. Use the grips and stances you have learnt and an abbreviated version of the swing path.
Then you are ready to go full court with a regular ball.
You should do this at your own pace, not in clinics and lessons dancing to a coach's words and picking up balls every 15 minutes. You have to yourself feel every ball as it leaves your racket and build up a memory of what swing produces what kind of output.
bobleenov1963
Hall of Fame
Just give up tennis and play golf. You will not regret this decision. I know from experience.
Pickleball is a better and cheaper alternative.
hehe, if i didn't play tennis, i'd 100% take up pickleball, it looks like alot of fun
Sunshineanderson44
New User
I like ping pong, so I think I'd enjoy pickleball.hehe, if i didn't play tennis, i'd 100% take up pickleball, it looks like alot of fun
Sunshineanderson44
New User
I use the continental grip on everything but the forehand.
Stance is probably the biggest issue, I'm not giving it any consideration and sometimes I feel like my legs are crossing over each other, if that makes sense.
Is it ok to let the ball bounce twice when hitting against the wall, or is that a no no?
bobleenov1963
Hall of Fame
Golf is king bar none. Both my son and daughter play much more golf than tennis for the past 18 months. The ratio between golf and tennis like 8 to 1.
Sunshineanderson44
New User
Golf looks boring to me.
bobleenov1963
Hall of Fame
Golf is boring to watch, just like tennis; However, it is really fun when you play. Just need to make sure that you invest wisely while you're working so that you have $$$ to play golf when you retire.
Sunshineanderson44
New User
Well, the thing is some people find tennis and baseball boring to watch, I do not, but golf---well. It's worth a try, nonetheless, I guess.
McLovin
Legend
I prefer Frisbee (aka Disc) golf:
- It's free (except for the minor investment of discs, which is ~ $30 for a 3-pack).
- You can shoot 18 in under 2 hours.
- Most everyone on the course is friendly & helpful (3 people I've never seen before helped us look for my friend's son's disc for ~ 10-15 minutes)
- Decent amount of walking up & down hills.
- No tee times...can pretty much walk up to any course at any time and play.
golden chicken
Hall of Fame
Doubles is a ...double-edged sword.
You have to play tennis to get good at tennis, and you have to play doubles to get good at doubles.
By that, I mean that when you play doubles for practice you see about 1/2 as many balls to hit as you would if you were playing (or rallying) singles for the same amount of time invested. This is counterproductive if you are working on your execution of basic strokes.
But, you cannot learn positioning and strategy for doubles by playing singles only. You have to play doubles to find yourself in doubles-specific situations.
With intentional practice, most singles skills will translate over, for sure, but doubles is a different way to play the game.
Matthew ATX
Semi-Pro
I am a 4.5 and can tell you that no matter what level you get to, you will always encounter people who are going to dump on your game. I have a teammate who is constantly telling me all the things I do wrong and basically why I'm a trash 4.5. You just gotta let it go in one ear and out the other and focus on the people who lift you up.
Practice the things you're bad at, but don't dwell too much on the fact that you're bad at them. You'll never perfect every aspect of your game; you'll always have weaknesses.
Do you have a 2 handed BH?
Golf is more expensive.
Sunshineanderson44
New User
Yes, which is probably why I'm not a good slicer. It seems like the one handed bh movement is very similar to a slice. I used a one handed bh briefly when I first learned, but I couldn't consistently get the ball over the net. Recently, I couldn't believe I had an instructor who said that most women should use the 2 handed bh. That made me want to go back to the one handed bh.
Sunshineanderson44
New User
Thank you!!!
Purestriker
Legend
Way more expensive!
Sunshineanderson44
New User
I'm really looking forward to taking the doubles strategy class with the female coach I like, but that won't be until the fall (possibly).Doubles is a ...double-edged sword.
You have to play tennis to get good at tennis, and you have to play doubles to get good at doubles.
By that, I mean that when you play doubles for practice you see about 1/2 as many balls to hit as you would if you were playing (or rallying) singles for the same amount of time invested. This is counterproductive if you are working on your execution of basic strokes.
But, you cannot learn positioning and strategy for doubles by playing singles only. You have to play doubles to find yourself in doubles-specific situations.
With intentional practice, most singles skills will translate over, for sure, but doubles is a different way to play the game.
For 2 hander, usually conti on the dominant hand, Eastern forehand on the non-dominant.
Most women including pros use a 2 handed BH. People think it is about lack of strength. There is more to it than that though people will not readily tell you because it can rub off the wrong way. I have read that women's hip rotation flexibility makes them more optimal for 2-handed BH.
Re: your other question, you should try to hit off the wall in 1 bounce but as you start adding topspin, the ball will dip sharply after hitting the wall and you many need more than 1 bounce. It doesn't matter.
It is important to hone your skills first in the mini court (service line to service line) with ROG balls (the O and G will do), then on the mini court with regular balls, and then on the regular court. Tennis missed the opportunity to promote 10-and-under tennis to older adults and as a result the noisy and irritating Pickleball took over.
MRfStop
Hall of Fame
+1 on this.
I started 12 years ago in 2009 as a 2.5 and met a group of guys that had been 2.5s for a while and got on their 2.5 team. The captain had a weekly drill with a pro out of the club that the team played out of. That was fun but we were all pretty bad. Surprisingly we made it to state and I remember the captain telling us that we should appreciate being at state because it was rare for a Macon team to go to state. The drill didnt help much because I didnt win much on that team. The next few seasons I met some other guys and started periodically going to a pro for individual lessons but it wasnt very much because of lack of funding and I was eventually bumped from 2.5 to 3.0 and then 3.0 to 3.5 in a 5-6 year time.
12 years later I am a 4.0 and have a much better understanding of the game, where my weaknesses are and an idea of how to get better. I go to a different pro now a couple of times a month and I have him run a 4.0+ drill with some of the guys I know. Also, I go to state at minimum once a year.
Don't give up, tennis is and can be a very frustrating and infuriating game, take some lessons that is within your budget, find some people that you like practicing with even if they are a beginner or if they are 3.0. If you pick some guys that are better than you you will steadily see your game get better especially if you play with people who want to get better.
Btw, I HATED TENNIS when I started, I was terrible and not winning didn't help my motivation to play. Once I started working on getting better and saw what I had worked on in drills/lessons started translating to matches the fun started even if I didnt win those matches...the work I was putting in was starting to pay off.
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But you are only 2 years older than me and quit tennis. That is not acceptable.
supermullet
Rookie
I'm surprised no one has touched upon this point. It's obvious that you are still pretty rusty. I haven't played in 7 years and as far as a) footwork and movement on the court, and b) actually hitting live balls in competition, I'm basically starting at square one all over again!
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
I’m a 3.5. I play only doubles.
Don’t slice, and don’t be impressed by your friends’ slices. They are beginners, so their slices are just hacking. That’s trash. Have your pro teach you the fundamentals and learn basic shots correctly before you get fancy.
You can and should practice with just one buddy even if you play doubles. Practice serving to the deuce court, buddy returns, and you both hit crosscourt until someone misses. Stay on the deuce side for a while until it looks less bad, then do the deuce side. Each of you take some volleys while the other aims right at you from the baseline. Do that regularly and, along with your lessons, you will improve quickly because you’ll develop consistency.
Good on you for using continental grip on your serve. I can’t overpower anyone with my serve, but I can sure frustrate returners with spin. Resist the urge to shift to frying pan grip, as proper grips will pay off in the future.
Lastly, I'm not a fan of the wall. The point of practicing when you’re new to the game is to develop a proper stroke and muscle memory. So that’s taking the racket back, pointing at the ball, having a controlled swing toward the target, and finishing over your shoulder. You can’t do all if that when the ball is shooting back at you from the wall at all heights and directions. Instead, have a hopper if balls. Toss a ball into the air, do footwork to set up with proper spacing, hit it. Grade yourself — did you finish over your shoulder, did you have enough space, did you keep your head down? Then do it again.
You don’t even need a buddy!
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
Huh? I did take a break for a year, but I am back. Heck, I even played through COVID, and I’m on three teams right now.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
So glad you are healed up and back on the courts!
You did have a post some months ago that alluded to quitting perhaps forever: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...st-match-was-a-good-one.686206/#post-14896978
Awesome that you have recovered .... and someday you and I have to be on court together and share a cup of tea afterwards!
Bender
G.O.A.T.
This is the answer.
And there's one issue. This isn't Facebook. Your goal shouldn't be comparing your happiness on court with those of others and then feeling bad about yourself. What matters is that you enjoy what you're doing, and you take the appropriate steps to increase the happiness you get out of it, not feeling discouraged because someone else's smile looks bigger than yours on court. As Nadal, one of the game's greatest of all time, said: "you can't be frustrated all the time because your neighbour has a bigger house than you or a bigger TV or better garden". Yeah, I guess it's easier to be satisfied when you've won thirteen French Open titles, but the message remains true nevertheless.
Everyone, even the very best to play the sport are forever a student of the game. If your goal is as vague and subjective as "my friends are having more fun than me" then you'll never find happiness in this sport until the day you make your friends look visibly absolutely miserable, but what kind of happiness would that be?
Instead, find a specific area you want to improve as a goal. It should be one very specific task at a time, and can be in a progression, for eg "I want more power", then "I want more spin", then "I want more consistency", not "I want a better forehand").
The other thing you can always work on is movement, which hardly anyone talks about at the 3.5 level and below, and yet is more important than stroke production itself (because what's the point of having a technically perfect forehand if you can't get to a ball?). This part could be something that comes a bit more naturally for you since you've said:
and it's known that dance translates very well to tennis footwork. HIIT, long distance running, skipping rope, ladder drills, are all things you can do off court whenever you have the time and have the benefits of improving your overall health, fitness, and coordination even if you ultimately do decide to give up on tennis, be it competitive or social, and should translate well to other sports or other activities that you may continue pursuing.
Sunshineanderson44
New User
My goal isn't "my friends are having more fun than me", that's just a simple fact and observation. My goal is to improve, be consistent, be a competitive 2.5/3.0 and not the bottom of the barrel when playing league tennis or just games period. That would make me happy, regardless of how others feel about their game.
Sunshineanderson44
New User
I don't know what the obsession with the slice is -- even the team coach will feed into people's desire to learn the slice. He'll go "oh, it's a beautiful shot...a beautiful shot". I mean, even the Bryan brothers instructional videos I see don't even mention slicing; they're all about position and volleying.
I like the toss the ball into the air drill idea because I can randomly place the ball, which would simulate game play, but wouldn't the pace be so much slower?
Great to have you back!
Another way is not to play leagues but just play casually with people of a certain level. You don't need to bother about rating, but only if you can hang with your partners. I play casually with several people who also play and captain USTA leagues so I have a rough idea where I stand but I don't care about that.
Sunshineanderson44
New User
Yes, that’s how I should have proceeded this summer, without USTA.
When you beat the USTA players in your casual matches, you will feel really good because you will think that you have defeated all their USTA opponents by proxy! Sort of like if I beat Djokovic, I will feel that I have beaten Nadal and Federer too.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I'm 50 and started playing almost 3 years ago and have been playing pretty regularly about 2xs per week. So I can appreciate what you are saying. It does get harder to learn anything as an adult. And yes it can be hard when I am on the coaches team and we still lose in clinic. But learning something as rich as tennis which takes both mental learning and muscle memory will always be a matter of 2 steps forward one step back.
I have played many sports but the serve in tennis is ridiculously difficult. Just tossing the ball reliably with my left hand is difficult. I still sort of bob my whole body upwards when I toss which is the opposite of what I should do because then I have to go right back down and then up again. Forget all the movements my shoulders, hips and right arm etc are supposed to make as I prepare to leap in the air and hit the ball at just the right spot, getting it over the net and inside the service box. I put off practicing the serve for years and just worked on the strokes I liked hitting. I didn't like practicing it so I didn't. For a while I loved smacking forehands so that is what I did. I also loved trying to put different spins on the ball so I did that for a while. I like hitting a big moonball lob so I do that too. I'm starting to like hitting angled volleys so I am hitting quite a few of those when I play now. So yes we have deficits and we always will. But hit the shots you like to hit and don't be overly concerned about "working" on shots you think you need to work on.
I haven't played any competitive tennis but I have played some friendly doubles matches so I understand not wanting to let your partner down. But, I will try my best and that is all I can do. If that's not good enough for them then they don't have to play with me - no hard feelings. Maybe I will improve maybe I wont but I am having fun.
Keep your tossing arm absolutely straight and lift it with the shoulder as hinge, not the elbow, till you feel the sensation in your shoulder which says the arm is upright. It will feel rigid at first, but just determine that you will not compromise and do this every single time, even during a match.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Well that's good. The reason why I said what I said was because you stated that you "do enjoy the game...[just that] others around [you] enjoy it much more". Clearly I've overanalysed what you said, but personally I wouldn't have noticed how much other people appear to be enjoying the game to even compare their enjoyment to mine in the first place.
Anyway, in terms of improvement, the second part of my post still stands. You have pre-existing athletic skills you can tap into, and as for stroke production--again, set very specific goals. For me, I wanted to improve my volleys, but after some doubles matches figured out where exactly the issues were. Sometimes the answer isn't just implementing what you're technically supposed to do directly but instead finding a trick that makes you naturally do the technically-correct thing, if that makes any sense.
So for me, my volleys from the service line (especially on the forehand side) were utter garbage and I was either floating them too high / long when volleying balls around waist level or below, or hitting them into the middle of the net when volleying balls around chest level and above. So I just did 1v2s where I'd volley from the service line against two heavy topspin baseliners every time I hit the courts for 10-15 mins until just one week later I had a eureka moment, where I found out that straightening out my arm and changing my grip to somewhere between a continental and a backhand eastern grip kept my volleys sharp and punchy regardless of how low or how high the incoming ball was. As it turned out with my old continental grip I was habitually over-opening and over-closing the racquet face at an attempt to compensate for my lazy knees and the trajectory of the incoming ball, whereas the new grip and straightened arm (for whatever reason) was forcing me to lock the racquet face in place and actually bend my knees and maintain a consistent space from the ball instead like I was supposed to.
So yeah, you probably need to set explicit goals for yourself re your improvement. And yeah, maybe ditch competitive tennis for a while if you want to improve technically.
Slices sort of get massacred in higher level doubles because good net players can cover so much real estate that unless the slice is placed perfectly they will just intercept and put the ball away. At low to intermediate levels net players are far less aggressive, and even if they do try to intercept, often either overcompensate for the backspin and end up overcooking the volley or don't compensate at all and dump it into the net. So I can see why people bang on about slices although your observation is 100% accurate.
As for the bolded--yes, but the point is that drop feeds really force you to generate your own power instead of relying on your opponent to give you incoming pace to work with. If you feel like your shots lack pace then this is something you should really look into.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Funny, in that thumbnail, Ian's left elbow (it's mirrored so I guess right elbow) has dropped below shoulder height, which is major no-no for both serves and overheads.
I haven't actually watched the video though, so maybe it's an example of what not to do
Experiences like those of OP drive players away from tennis to pickle:
What tennis can learn from pickleball
What tennis can learn from pickleball
Sunshineanderson44
New User
I need to get a head start on pickleball now. All the tennis players who hate it are gonna try to compete against me in 10 years when I'm collecting prize money on the pickleball circuit!!
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
My guess is that the team coach is engaging in the time-honored practice of "Blowing sunshine up your skirt." In other words, praising bad technique and bad shots in an effort to be encouraging and keep paying clients happy.
Yes, self feeding is slower, but that is the point. You want to learn to generate your own pace. As you continue to play, you will hear players say, "I can't hit these slow sitter balls. I play better with pace." They become wildly inconsistent or resort to pushing when they must generate their own pace. Well, real tennis players with good technique are not thrown off by a ball with no pace but will eat that ball up. This is because they have developed good technique. No decent pro in a lesson will hit pace to you until you've shown that you have muscle memory for the fundamentals.
So. Toss a ball into the air, prepare your racket with the correct grip, position yourself so it is in your contact zone, point with your left hand, keep your head down, swing toward the target, finish over your shoulder, re-set to ready position. Observe what the ball does, observe whether you did in fact finish correctly without letting your left arm dangle limply down. Do that about 1,000 times. Then do it 1,000 times on the BH. Getting all of that into muscle memory is going to take some time.
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
Ah, I see. Yeah, I did recover from the wrist surgery and have been slowly finding my mojo since March. It seems safe to say that the wrist won't be the end of me; another injury is going to do me in.
Sunshineanderson44
New User
I'm a lefty, so I take it I'm pointing with my right hand and making sure my right arm doesn't dangle? I'm going to look mighty silly doing this, but it sounds worth it. I'm so over tennis right now I mentally (and physically) checked out of a class I took today. Didn't really want to be there, but I figured I paid for it so I might as well finish out the series.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
Just as long as you and I are on the same court before that injury you just spoke into existence shows up!
