Is it unrealistic for a USTA 4.0 player to reach the level of Marcos Baghdatis from 2006 with 4 additional years of SUPER intense training?

USTA 4.0 player reaching the level of 2006 Baghdatis after 4 additional years of intense training

  • Impossible

    Votes: 32 84.2%
  • Possible, but INCREDIBLY challenging

    Votes: 6 15.8%

  • Total voters
    38
How unrealistic is it for a USTA 4.0 level player to eventually reach the level of Marcos Baghdatis from 2006 with 4 additional years of extremely intense and grueling training?
Let's say, the USTA 4.0 player is 18 years old, he has been playing tennis for 8 years (although not very intensely, just as a hobby) and for the next 4 years, he will do nothing but train and practice relentlessly every day. He will not go out with friends, nor attend any parties and he will be solely dedicated to training like his life depends on it.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
He could spend the maximum amount of training time possible before reaching the point his body breaks down, have the best tutelage on earth, diet like Djokovic and have Federer-like natural talent…and still no. 18 is too late.
 

TripleATeam

G.O.A.T.
The player has been playing tennis for 8 years already since the age of 10 as a hobby, and then, for the next 4 years, he will be training super intensely.
18 to 22 going from 4.0 to 7.0+? No. He can't do it.

The people already on tour are doing close to the best training. If you're very conservative, let's say they go at 80% effectiveness day-in, day-out. Your player will go for 4 years of 100% training. These players can barely stay in their positions (if they do) with their 80% effective training, and these are prodigies (players that were told from the beginning that they're too good).

A random player that decides to go pro might have what it takes after 4 years, but not top-10 level. Maybe top 1000 if they're lucky. Top 10 were training from the get-go for professional sport.
 
18 to 22 going from 4.0 to 7.0+? No. He can't do it.

The people already on tour are doing close to the best training. If you're very conservative, let's say they go at 80% effectiveness day-in, day-out. Your player will go for 4 years of 100% training. These players can barely stay in their positions (if they do) with their 80% effective training, and these are prodigies (players that were told from the beginning that they're too good).

A random player that decides to go pro might have what it takes after 4 years, but not top-10 level. Maybe top 1000 if they're lucky. Top 10 were training from the get-go for professional sport.
Baghdatis was ranked #54 in the world at the beginning of 2006, nowhere near top 10. Also, tennis evolves over time, and I’d say it has evolved noticeably in 2023 compared to 2006. The new players are faster and stronger and the racket technology has become much more advanced.
Do you still think that it would be impossible for a very fit and athletic 18 year old guy from 2023?
 

ChrisJR3264

Hall of Fame
Very highly unlikely.
If that 4.0 player has all the shots - then they need to have elite movement.

There are players who never turn pro though or get even remotely close to it due to $$$$. That’s always an issue. I mean I’m a self taught 4.5. I never had private lessons 1:1 with pro coaches as a kid. I just picked it up one summer and loved it.
 
How unrealistic is it for a USTA 4.0 level player to eventually reach the level of Marcos Baghdatis from 2006 with 4 additional years of extremely intense and grueling training?
Let's say, the USTA 4.0 player is 18 years old, he has been playing tennis for 8 years (although not very intensely, just as a hobby) and for the next 4 years, he will do nothing but train and practice relentlessly every day. He will not go out with friends, nor attend any parties and he will be solely dedicated to training like his life depends on it.
No not going out to parties with his friends will deprive him of the happiness necessary for optimal skill advancement.
 
How unrealistic is it for a USTA 4.0 level player to eventually reach the level of Marcos Baghdatis from 2006 with 4 additional years of extremely intense and grueling training?
Let's say, the USTA 4.0 player is 18 years old, he has been playing tennis for 8 years (although not very intensely, just as a hobby) and for the next 4 years, he will do nothing but train and practice relentlessly every day. He will not go out with friends, nor attend any parties and he will be solely dedicated to training like his life depends on it.
Nearly impossible noone ever done it
 

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
In football, you had cases like that, nothing similar in tennis.

Calleri started pretty late I know, he was working in his father's business at 18 I believe, and made it to 15th or so, but I don't know what level he had, I'd assume much more than 4.0.

Isner finished college and then went pro as far as I know, but again, no idea about his level. Maybe someone knows more about his case.
 

esgee48

G.O.A.T.
This player needs to be winning NTRP Open level tournaments right now. That would prove he can beat 5.0+. Next year he would need to be in a power 5 D1 school playing No 1 or No 2 singles. Needs to basically win all his matches. Third year is Challenger level tournaments and winning over 50% of the tournaments. Final year needs to win M1000 or 2. Odds are not in this player’s favor.
 
This player needs to be winning NTRP Open level tournaments right now. That would prove he can beat 5.0+. Next year he would need to be in a power 5 D1 school playing No 1 or No 2 singles. Needs to basically win all his matches. Third year is Challenger level tournaments and winning over 50% of the tournaments. Final year needs to win M1000 or 2. Odds are not in this player’s favor.
Do you really think Baghdatis was that amazingly good in 2006? He was ranked #54 in the world at the beginning of 2006, and not only was 2006 part of one of the weakest eras in tennis history, but also, tennis evolves over time, and I’d say it has evolved noticeably in 2023 compared to 2006. The new players are faster and stronger and the racket technology has become much more advanced.
Do you still think that it would be impossible for a very fit and athletic 18 year old guy from 2023?
 
Do you really think Baghdatis was that amazingly good in 2006? He was ranked #54 in the world at the beginning of 2006, and not only was 2006 part of one of the weakest eras in tennis history, but also, tennis evolves over time, and I’d say it has evolved noticeably in 2023 compared to 2006. The new players are faster and stronger and the racket technology has become much more advanced.
Do you still think that it would be impossible for a very fit and athletic 18 year old guy from 2023?
In only 4 years yea probably not happening
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
lew-hoad-tennis-september-03-1956-sports-illustrated-cover.jpg
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Nearly impossible noone ever done it
It's not "nearly" impossible, it's totally impossible. A 4.0 player is a slightly above average recreational player. To go from that, at age 18, to world class player is simply impossible no matter how much time and money are invested

If the 4.0 player is so inclined, he can hire a lower ranked, Futures or Satellite level player to play a match against him so he can better appreciate the enormous gulf that exists between NTRP 4.0 and UTR 12+. It will save him a lot of money and frustration, and it will help him set more realistic goals
 
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onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
Baghdatis was ranked #54 in the world at the beginning of 2006, nowhere near top 10. Also, tennis evolves over time, and I’d say it has evolved noticeably in 2023 compared to 2006. The new players are faster and stronger and the racket technology has become much more advanced.
Do you still think that it would be impossible for a very fit and athletic 18 year old guy from 2023?
How fit and athletic are you?

Time yourself in the 5 ball spider drill and record a video.
What is your standing vertical jump?
How far can you throw an NFL football? tennis ball?
100m sprint speed
How many pistol squats can you do while holding a cat? an explosive can of gas?
 

BlueB

Legend
It's not "nearly" impossible, it's totally impossible. A 4.0 player is a slightly above average recreational player. To go from that, at age 18, to world class player is simply impossible no matter how much time and money is invested

If the 4.0 player is so inclined, he can hire a lower ranked, Futures or Satellite level player to play a match against him so he can better appreciate the enormous gulf that exists between NTRP 4.0 and UTR 12+. It will save him a lot of money and frustration, and it will help him set more realistic goals
No need to aim that high. Competitive U16 kids completely demolish a 4.0. A good U14 should do it too.
 
How fit and athletic are you?

Time yourself in the 5 ball spider drill and record a video.
What is your standing vertical jump?
How far can you throw an NFL football? tennis ball?
100m sprint speed
How many pistol squats can you do while holding a cat? an explosive can of gas?
Oh no, I was not talking about myself. I was actually referring to my 18 year old friend from Cyprus, who believes that he can one day become as good as Baghdatis. I constantly tried to tell him that it is simply not possible, but he wouldn’t listen to me and kept telling me how I am not a good friend if I do not support his dream.
So I wanted to hear other experts’ opinions on Talk Tennis, and as expected, you guys more or less said the same things as I did. This thread was made for satirical purposes because to be honest, my friend’s goal is just ridiculously unrealistic it’s unhealthy. I mean, how on Earth does he think that a USTA 4.0 level amateur, who is already a fully grown adult, could reach the level of a guy who was winning sets against peak Federer and peak Djokovic on their best surfaces, with only 4 years of additional training?!! I honestly don’t think he could EVER reach that level…
 

enishi1357

Semi-Pro
The only way is to have a skill no one else can copy while being competitive. Example being djokovic flexibility. Start taking extreme yoga or gymnastic.
 

TripleATeam

G.O.A.T.
Baghdatis was ranked #54 in the world at the beginning of 2006, nowhere near top 10. Also, tennis evolves over time, and I’d say it has evolved noticeably in 2023 compared to 2006. The new players are faster and stronger and the racket technology has become much more advanced.
Do you still think that it would be impossible for a very fit and athletic 18 year old guy from 2023?
Ok, what are you asking? Movement? Instinct? Forehand racquet head speed?

Since you name dropped 2006 Baggy, I naturally assumed you meant when he played the AO and made the final and made the Wimbledon semi. That would include his physical characteristics plus his general feel for the ball, plus his tennis IQ and experience.

If an 18 year old wants to be as fast in 4 years as Baghdatis was in that year, it is possible. If they want the same reaction speed, also possible. Racquet speed, also possible. In all purely physical characteristics it is possible even without necessarily having the right genetics for the job. Will it be easy? No. But with the proper training an 18 year old can get there reasonably quickly. But that would eat some time, getting to the proper physique for the job. Having both explosive speed and stamina to go at it for hours on end. Would take a good chunk of time.

Then there's the mental. Match Marcos' tactical knowledge in 5 years? Probably not, but maybe. Tennis instincts? No. Experience? Definitely not. Mental edge? Wouldn't count on it, even despite Baghdatis not being known for his strong mental game.

Even past general physique, I'll be generous and say each individual shot could probably be very well practiced (top college level) within 4 years of extremely dedicated work from a 4.0 (which isn't guaranteed at all). That still doesn't mean the player has a weapon, which is something more innate and based off of a preexisting talent. And putting those shots together like a pro? Not likely. The game is very different from the top of college compared to the pros.

Let's put it this way.

Going from 4.0 to 5.0 in a year is already ambitious, but let's say your 4.0 is a prodigy. He can do it in 6 months. The next 1.0 of rating is much harder. No more fundamentals to get solid and just junkball. Real plays need to be made. So let's say they can do it in a single year (that's absolutely insane - like going from the worst player on a mid-level college team to among their best). Then they go from 6.0 to 7.0 in just 1 more year (nearly impossible - that's mid-tier college talent to the bottom of professional tennis in just 1 year). The higher you go, the harder it is to improve. Fewer obvious things, and the things you aren't doing right are already ingrained, so you need to unlearn then relearn.

Say he can do all this, then he's still 2.5 years into the training and he's at the level that dozens of players in America find themselves in every year. To go from the bottom of professional play to a grand slam semifinalist level in just 1.5 years is impossible. It's just impossible unless you're a prodigy who is a genius at the game and just needs to find the groove or grow into your body. Your 4.0 is neither. That final step is impossible, and it's already predicated on 3 almost impossible steps of their own in that time frame (4.0 -> 5.0 -> 6.0 -> 7.0).

It is unrealistic, otherwise more players would do it.
 

Wander

Hall of Fame
Oh no, I was not talking about myself. I was actually referring to my 18 year old friend from Cyprus, who believes that he can one day become as good as Baghdatis. I constantly tried to tell him that it is simply not possible, but he wouldn’t listen to me and kept telling me how I am not a good friend if I do not support his dream.
So I wanted to hear other experts’ opinions on Talk Tennis, and as expected, you guys more or less said the same things as I did. This thread was made for satirical purposes because to be honest, my friend’s goal is just ridiculously unrealistic it’s unhealthy. I mean, how on Earth does he think that a USTA 4.0 level amateur, who is already a fully grown adult, could reach the level of a guy who was winning sets against peak Federer and peak Djokovic on their best surfaces, with only 4 years of additional training?!! I honestly don’t think he could EVER reach that level…

How do you know that your Cypriot friend is 4.0 USTA. That rating system is not used in Cyprus.
 
How unrealistic is it for a USTA 4.0 level player to eventually reach the level of Marcos Baghdatis from 2006 with 4 additional years of extremely intense and grueling training?
Let's say, the USTA 4.0 player is 18 years old, he has been playing tennis for 8 years (although not very intensely, just as a hobby) and for the next 4 years, he will do nothing but train and practice relentlessly every day. He will not go out with friends, nor attend any parties and he will be solely dedicated to training like his life depends on it.

Only someone who has never played the game or has any idea what a 4.0 player is like in person.
 

jimmy8

Legend
I think it's possible if he has good height, like 6'2 or above, has elite athleticism, already has great form and foundation, has great competitiveness, has great psychological makeup, his body is capable of training like a little kid can and never gets injured through the 4 years of intense training, has access to enough money, has access to a qualified coach, has access to a court that he can play on all day, everyday, has access to an indoor, climate controlled court for inclimate weather days, has access to many similarly leveled players at every level he reaches, has access to appropriately leveled tournaments at every level he reaches.

The never gets injured part is probably too optimistic, but possible.
 
I think it's possible if he has good height, like 6'2 or above, has elite athleticism, already has great form and foundation, has great competitiveness, has great psychological makeup, his body is capable of training like a little kid can and never gets injured through the 4 years of intense training, has access to enough money, has access to a qualified coach, has access to a court that he can play on all day, everyday, has access to an indoor, climate controlled court for inclimate weather days, has access to many similarly leveled players at every level he reaches, has access to appropriately leveled tournaments at every level he reaches.

The never gets injured part is probably too optimistic, but possible.
Even then 4 years just isnt enough time to master the game to baghdatis level
 

matterer

Rookie
If Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Sampras, Agassi, Edberg, Toni Nadal, Dimitrov and Alcaraz's dad decide to team up and make it their mission in life to teach a 4.0 how to play tennis and the 4.0 has extremely high frustration tolerance, doesn't make excuses, is an incredible listener and decides to not even attempt to think for himself, then yeah.
 

Nadal - GOAT

Hall of Fame
How unrealistic is it for a USTA 4.0 level player to eventually reach the level of Marcos Baghdatis from 2006 with 4 additional years of extremely intense and grueling training?
Let's say, the USTA 4.0 player is 18 years old, he has been playing tennis for 8 years (although not very intensely, just as a hobby) and for the next 4 years, he will do nothing but train and practice relentlessly every day. He will not go out with friends, nor attend any parties and he will be solely dedicated to training like his life depends on it.
I think this is the key issue.. if someone has been playing tennis for 8 years, even if just as a hobby, he should have developed much higher than 4.0 if he is ever to reach pro level.

If it were a super athletic guy focusing and excelling in other sports like say basketball who suddenly wants to switch to tennis then maybe there is an outside chance.

Training and coaching can help only so much. To be top 100 in tennis one needs to be gifted in many ways which should be evident if someone plays the sport for 8 years.
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Absolutely possible, talent will be just as important as the work put in.

I was able to obtain a high enough level to play with my college team in 4 years, but had zero lessons and zero coach. I naturally used a one handed backhand as well, my only weak point in my game was mental.

I imagine a highly talented individual training all day every day with a high-level coach, and hitting partners would be able to achieve leaps and bounds very quickly.

To summit up there’s two different ways to get there. You can either start from when you’re a kid and all the right people in tools at your disposal or you can just be born with it.
 

Wurm

Professional
Isn‘t Sinner an example for this question?

Nah. 13 year old Sinner was not getting accepted into https://www.piattitenniscenter.it/en/ as a live-in player without already clearly looking like he had the ability to turn pro. An 18 year old 4.0 player is highly unlikely to look like someone able to turn pro.

The worst version of the Sinner myth is that he didn't even start playing tennis until he was 13, which is absolute nonsense. He started tennis young (stories vary but it seems like the usual 5-7 kinda age), but ended up taking skiing really seriously between 8 and 12 with tennis just on the back burner until he switched focus to tennis.

What he didn't apparently do is play the competitive juniors circuit, he just went straight from the academy into Futures and that seems to have confused some people.
 
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