Is Seles stabbing the reason Conchita Martinez isnt in HOF

mccarthy

Banned
I have often wondered why Conchita Martinez isn't in the Hall of Fame. Her achievements are roughly on par with her peers Sabatini and Novotna who both made it practically at the first point of eligibity.

I wonder if it is even possible the Seles stabbing is the reason she didn't get in. This would not affect Sabatini who had virtually all her main achievements before the Seles stabbing, and in fact tailed off badly after that, in part due to an emotionally deflating loss to Fernandez at the French from 6-1, 5-1 up that wrecked her already dimming confidence. It would not likely affect Novotna who had most of her achievements at Wimbledon where she is superior to Seles anyway, who generally was a tough opponent for Seles, and who had her peak years in 97-98 which was likely after Seles's projected peak anyhow.

On the other hand Martinez would probably be perceived to have gained greatly. She was owned badly for Seles, even post stabbing continued to be. She reached over 30 career titles by piling up tier 1 and tier 2 clay titles with Graf usually absent (94 onwards, playing a limited schedule to rest her now fragile back and knees, focusing mostly on the majors) and of course Seles not present for awhile. This likely would not have happened otherwise. While her slam title was at Wimbledon and Seles was never any lock there, her draw was a massive cakewalk and even adding another name to the draw could change everything, such as her fortune of how the draw played out and avoiding all of Graf, Novotna, Seles, Sanchez, and numerous others who probably would have beaten her.

So I suspect the Seles stabbing plays a large part into why Martinez has not gotten in the HOF when given the current HOF standards she is accomplished enough. Sabatini and Novotna are only roughly on par with her in achievments (even if the vast majority would consider the other two superior players) and they got in very easily and quickly.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
The way these things seem to be decided is: Achievement plus Popularity. You can have the one but if you don't have the other then it is highly unlikely you will get in.

Martinez has the achievement credentials but she just doesn't seem to be popular enough and she is not American either or I'm reasonably sure she would have been inducted ages ago. I think that is what is holding Kafelnikov back as well. Neither are American or popular enough.

IMO if your achievements meet the required standard, then you should automatically be inducted. It shouldn't come down to whether the members like you enough or not. Any new champion at Wimbledon is automatically offered membership of the All England Club, they do not have to wait to be selected. In the interests of fairness, I feel the same principle should also hold true for the HOF!
 

mccarthy

Banned
The way these things seem to be decided is: Achievement plus Popularity. You can have the one but if you don't have the other then it is highly unlikely you will get in.

Martinez has the achievement credentials but she just doesn't seem to be popular enough and she is not American either or I'm reasonably sure she would have been inducted ages ago. I think that is what is holding Kafelnikov back as well. Neither are American or popular enough.

IMO if your achievements meet the required standard, then you should automatically be inducted. It shouldn't come down to whether the members like you enough or not. Any new champion at Wimbledon is automatically offered membership of the All England Club, they do not have to wait to be selected. In the interests of fairness, I feel the same principle should also hold true for the HOF!

I agree with you. Sabatini and Martinez for example in popularity are night and day. Too far apart to even describe. Sabatini was probably the most overrated/overhyped 1 slam winner in history due to glamor, her hyped non rivalry with Graf, and her perceived (possibly existing but never close to fulfilled if it did) potential.

Novotna gained some following through her trials and turbulations at Wimbledon, and her long journey to an ultimate victory there.

Martinez also had a very boring playing style, wearing people down from the baseline with seemingly no offensive weapons at all. It is why the big hitters like Graf and Seles owned her so badly, and generally lower ranked opponents like Huber, Date, Majoli who could hit through her also had winning records. Her personality I have heard is quite interesting off the court to friends, but in front of the cameras it certainly wasn't. During matches she often sulked, moped, and if she got down especialy against a bigger name player like Graf, Seles, Hingis, often flat out quit. She was generally quite overweight and wore some ugly tennis outfits to boot. This does not sit well to how she is perceived.
 

kiki

Banned
I agree with you. Sabatini and Martinez for example in popularity are night and day. Too far apart to even describe. Sabatini was probably the most overrated/overhyped 1 slam winner in history due to glamor, her hyped non rivalry with Graf, and her perceived (possibly existing but never close to fulfilled if it did) potential.

Novotna gained some following through her trials and turbulations at Wimbledon, and her long journey to an ultimate victory there.

Martinez also had a very boring playing style, wearing people down from the baseline with seemingly no offensive weapons at all. It is why the big hitters like Graf and Seles owned her so badly, and generally lower ranked opponents like Huber, Date, Majoli who could hit through her also had winning records. Her personality I have heard is quite interesting off the court to friends, but in front of the cameras it certainly wasn't. During matches she often sulked, moped, and if she got down especialy against a bigger name player like Graf, Seles, Hingis, often flat out quit. She was generally quite overweight and wore some ugly tennis outfits to boot. This does not sit well to how she is perceived.

Conchita had a great FH and very good sliced BH.Very crafty and varied backcourt game, to me that is not more boring than watching Sabatini,Fernandez,Sanchez,Seles,Pierce.I agree she lacked some fire.
 

Gonzalito17

Banned
Though she was a very good player and a major champ, Martinez had very little charisma or flair off the court. I think her lowkeyness and lack of pizzazz has delayed her HOF election. With all the great and dynamic players we have seen in tennis sometimes it's easy of forget a quiet great like Conchita who has sort of slipped into obscurity.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Didn't she win only one slam? Do people with only one slam deserve to be in HOF?

Some of us like mccarthy don't think so but I look at it this way. Winning a Grand Slam is the highest achievement in tennis and so automatically makes you famous. After all, the institution is called the Hall of Fame and not the Hall of Achievement!

If you automatically discount one Slam winners as being insufficiently famous, then the institution has to decide where the drawing line should be and consensus for selection can then become difficult and arbitrary. If, for instance, you decide that a Jim Courier level career (4 Slams) is the minimum requirement, then players like Arthur Ashe, Pancho Gonzales, Tracy Austin and Lindsay Davenport would be excluded. But can any of us honestly say that none of those players is famous enough? Moreover, many 1 Slam winners also achieve many other things eg. the number 1 ranking, WTF/Masters/Olympic titles etc. that indicate they are not just some sort of freakish flash-in-the-pan!

At the moment, the consensus seems to be that Slamless players are not eligible given that none so far have been inducted. In the unique case of Marcelo Rios, who is currently the only retired player who was ranked world number #1 without ever winning a Slam, it will be interesting to see if his number 1 ranking will be sufficient in itself to make him eligible for induction. He is a special case.
 
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mccarthy

Banned
Didn't she win only one slam? Do people with only one slam deserve to be in HOF?

The HOF have set current standards that seemingly a 1 slam winner with an extremely good (much better than average for 1 slam winner) career makes it, or practically any 2 slam winner. Conchita definitely fits into the much better than average career for a 1 slam winner with 30+ tournament victories. Her career is comparable to Sabatini and Novotna who are both in already.
 

mccarthy

Banned
Some of us like mccarthy don't think so but I look at it this way. Winning a Grand Slam is the highest achievement in tennis and so automatically makes you famous. After all, the institution is called the Hall of Fame and not the Hall of Achievement!

If you automatically discount one Slam winners as being insufficiently famous, then the institution has to decide where the drawing line should be and consensus for selection can then become difficult and arbitrary. If, for instance, you decide that a Jim Courier level career (4 Slams) is the minimum requirement, then players like Arthur Ashe, Pancho Gonzales, Tracy Austin and Lindsay Davenport would be excluded.

No Pancho Gonzales would never be excluded. Everyone with knowledge on the game knows he is a top 5 all time, maybe top 3 (I actually rank him 2nd behind Laver, and ahead of Federer and Nadal). His 2 slam stat is a meaningless joke given the amateur-pro situation back then.

Someone like Davenport would still make it in. Her career is better than Courier's overall despite that she won 1 fewer slam. Remember she was YE#1 FOUR times (even if atleast 2 of those were a joke, they are still fact), and won over 50 WTA tournaments.

Ashe would still make it. Only 1 less slam than Courier, but his impact on the game off court also would be factored, and his overall impact on the game is well beyond Courier. There is the Arthur Ashe stadium after all.

Austin might not make it, which would be totally fine with me.

At the moment, the consensus seems to be that Slamless players are not eligible given that none so far have been inducted. In the unique case of Marcelo Rios, who is currently the only retired player who was ranked world number #1 without ever winning a Slam, it will be interesting to see if his number 1 ranking will be sufficient in itself to make him eligible for induction. He is a special case.

Safina is also a retired slamless #1 and I am completely sure she isn't making, just as I am Rios isn't. Not a chance. Even the current lowish HOF standards it would never happen. I would bet my car on it.
 

SelesFan23

New User
Some of us like mccarthy don't think so but I look at it this way. Winning a Grand Slam is the highest achievement in tennis and so automatically makes you famous. After all, the institution is called the Hall of Fame and not the Hall of Achievement!

If you automatically discount one Slam winners as being insufficiently famous, then the institution has to decide where the drawing line should be and consensus for selection can then become difficult and arbitrary. If, for instance, you decide that a Jim Courier level career (4 Slams) is the minimum requirement, then players like Arthur Ashe, Pancho Gonzales, Tracy Austin and Lindsay Davenport would be excluded. But can any of us honestly say that none of those players is famous enough? Moreover, many 1 Slam winners also achieve many other things eg. the number 1 ranking, WTF/Masters/Olympic titles etc. that indicate they are not just some sort of freakish flash-in-the-pan!

At the moment, the consensus seems to be that Slamless players are not eligible given that none so far have been inducted. In the unique case of Marcelo Rios, who is currently the only retired player who was ranked world number #1 without ever winning a Slam, it will be interesting to see if his number 1 ranking will be sufficient in itself to make him eligible for induction. He is a special case.

Okay, I agree that very good one slam wonders deserve to be in the hall of fame. But I would say only Martinez, Sabatini, Novotna deserve to be in. Majoli, Myskina, Schiavone, Bartoli, Stosur, Jordan, O'Neil don't.
 
L

Laurie

Guest
I haven't kept up with HOF, I thought Conchita was in there already.

Great player to watch in my opinion, as has been pointed out, very good forehand and court craft. What prevented her achieving more was her serve and over reliance on the slice backhand when she had a good topspin backhand she could have developed on all surfaces. But off top of my head she has the most wins at the Italian open in Open era with four in a row, Wimbledon, Federation cup, finalist at French Open and Australian Open, plus over 30 titles then I think she definitely deserves to be in HOF.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
I'm a big Martinez fan, and if you look at her overall results and look at other one-Slam HOF members, it's clear she has a very strong case - with a Wimbledon title, two other Slam finals (on different surfaces), a ton of other SF and QF slam results, over 30 overall titles (including many Tier 1s), Fed Cup titles, doubles titles, Olympic medals, and on and on.

BUT, the one negative that stands out for me is her horrendous H2H records vs the best of her generation. By no means does she have to be equal with or have a winning record against ASV, Seles, Graf, Hingis. She was clearly a notch below. But, she's just 1-13 vs. Graf, 1-20 vs. Seles, 4-14 vs. ASV, 3-11 vs. Hingis.

2 or 3 more wins vs. Graf, 3 more against Seles, 2 more against ASV, 2 more against Hingis -including 1 win over each in a Slam or Tier 1, would look MUCH better, even if she still has considerable losing records. It would suggest that she, even if only for a short while, was a true threat to them, a true contender who could take them out on a big stage. (Well, she did take out ASV in a Slam at least).

She has losing records vs. Sabatini (6-9), Davenport (8-9), Novatana (1-4), Capriati (4-6), Pierce (6-12) as well, but that's much less bothersome as the overall W-L percentage is not anywhere near as bad, and she has enough wins over each to suggest that on any given day she could beat them (with maybe the exception of Novatna). That she never beat the Williams or Henin isn't that significant to me since she was largely (though not completely) past her best years in most of the matchups and those players really are, for the most part, the "next generation," Then again, even a single win over each would speak to her longevity and relevance in multiple eras.

I don't know if any of this matters. On paper, accepting that one-Slam winners are going to continue being nominated to the HOF, she has a pretty strong HOF resume. This is just something, as I fan, I always see as a glaring weak point in her achievements.
 
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BTURNER

Legend
I'm a big Martinez fan, and if you look at her overall results and look at other one-Slam HOF members, it's clear she has a very strong case - with a Wimbledon title, two other Slam finals (on different surfaces), a ton of other SF and QF slam results, over 30 overall titles (including many Tier 1s), Fed Cup titles, doubles titles, Olympic medals, and on and on.

BUT, the one negative that stands out for me is her horrendous H2H records vs the best of her generation. By no means does she have to be equal with or have a winning record against ASV, Seles, Graf, Hingis. She was clearly a notch below. But, she's just 1-13 vs. Graf, 1-20 vs. Seles, 4-14 vs. ASV, 3-11 vs. Hingis.

2 or 3 more wins vs. Graf, 3 more against Seles, 2 more against ASV, 2 more against Hingis -including 1 win over each in a Slam or Tier 1, would look MUCH better, even if she still has considerable losing records. It would suggest that she, even if only for a short while, was a true threat to them, a true contender who could take them out on a big stage. (Well, she did take out ASV in a Slam at least).

She has losing records vs. Sabatini (6-9), Davenport (8-9), Novatana (1-4), Capriati (4-6), Pierce (6-12) as well, but that's much less bothersome as the overall W-L percentage is not anywhere near as bad, and she has enough wins over each to suggest that on any given day she could beat them (with maybe the exception of Novatna). That she never beat the Williams or Henin isn't that significant to me since she was largely (though not completely) past her best years in most of the matchups and those players really are, for the most part, the "next generation," Then again, even a single win over each would speak to her longevity and relevance in multiple eras.

I don't know if any of this matters. On paper, accepting that one-Slam winners are going to continue being nominated to the HOF, she has a pretty strong HOF resume. This is just something, as I fan, I always see as a glaring weak point in her achievements.


Good balanced and researched post.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Roddick has 1 slam and I'd be very surprised if he isn't inducted within the next 10 years, if not sooner. Yes he reached no1, but that aside Martinez has a comparable career. She should be a member if the HoF is truly about honouring one of their own.
 

sunchaser

New User
Like others have said..., Sabatini deserves credit and belongs in the HOF solely based on how she made people watch women's tennis.

Lol, in that case Kournikova belongs in the HOF as well - she probably attracted more spectators than all top players of the time (1998-2002) put together :)
 

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
I really don't get how Martinez is not in the hall of Fame. She won a major, made other finals, was a solid top 10 player, won many titles, then factor in doubles where she was no slouch...she should be in. Nothing against Sabatini or Novotna but if they are in Martinez should also be in.

I am betting that Anastasia Myskina will eventually get in solely for being the first Russian to win a Major in singles...and if she gets in but Martinez still gets left out that will really be a tragedy.
 
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