It's Official...

[TennsDog]

Ok, folks. It's now official: racket selection can have a huge impact on serves. (Haha, I guess assuming as though it weren't official before for some reason.) I don't know if anyone ever said racket makes no difference, but some people say racket has some, but not a great effect on serves. I just came back from serving for the first time after officially changing rackets (from n6.1 95 to PS 85). I was serving on a court with 21' fence. With my n6.1, I could get within a foot or so of the half way mark up the back fence on occasion. Today, I hit 3 serves that directly hit the metal pole at half way and 2 more than were well above it. Yes, these serves were almost 6 feet up the fence off the bounce on a 21' distance. I also hit one that only landed about a foot long and hit the back fence 3/4 of the way up...and I'm not even fully acclimated to this racket yet. So if there's anyone who thinks rackets don't affect the serve much, think again.

(I don't know if this post is actually all that useful, but I just kinda had to let someone know anyway.)

 

[BreakPoint]

I agree with you. Racquets make a big difference on serves. Heavy, headlight, smaller headed racquets work better for me on serves. There's a reason why the PS 6.0 85 has the reputation that it does for being one of the best serving racquets ever made. It's a well earned reputation. Would Sampras have chosen to use anything else?

 

[ace of spades]

I agree.

Although I feel that this thread may become heated very soon.

 

[Yondan]

I've hit that far up the fence with quite a few rackets. Could it be technique possibly? Or do I have amazing taste in rackets? haha Done it with the Tecnifibre Tfight 325, Prince Diablo MP, Yonex RDX 500 Mid, Yonex RDS 001 MP(current), Head LM Prestige Mid, Fischer Pro One, just fyi.

 

[TennsDog]

I'm kind of surprised anyone can get that much spin from the LM Prestige mid. I used the MP before and had an amazingly difficult time getting any kind of spin.

I don't think this thread should get heated. It's a rather matter of fact thing for which I have simply provided blatant evidence. If people don't seem to get differing results from different frames, it is because the technique doesn't allow the racket's 'personality,' if you will, to shine through. When you use the racket properly, you'll see differences.

 

[DragonNeedSpank]

Ok, folks. It's now official: racket selection can have a huge impact on serves. (Haha, I guess assuming as though it weren't official before for some reason.) I don't know if anyone ever said racket makes no difference, but some people say racket has some, but not a great effect on serves. I just came back from serving for the first time after officially changing rackets (from n6.1 95 to PS 85). I was serving on a court with 21' fence. With my n6.1, I could get within a foot or so of the half way mark up the back fence on occasion. Today, I hit 3 serves that directly hit the metal pole at half way and 2 more than were well above it. Yes, these serves were almost 6 feet up the fence off the bounce on a 21' distance. I also hit one that only landed about a foot long and hit the back fence 3/4 of the way up...and I'm not even fully acclimated to this racket yet. So if there's anyone who thinks rackets don't affect the serve much, think again.

(I don't know if this post is actually all that useful, but I just kinda had to let someone know anyway.)

i agree with u!!! RIGHT ON BROTHER!

 

[R-Fed]

Are you going to switch rackets, Tennisdog?

 

[TennsDog]

Sorry, pet peeve: TennsDog, not TennisDog.
But yeah, like my post says, I have determined that I'm switching. I do everything better with the PS 85.

 

[SFrazeur]

TennsDog, what grip do you use on your forehand?

 

[TennsDog]

TennsDog, what grip do you use on your forehand?

Full western.

 

[SFrazeur]

Full western.

I would like to see that. Are you rolling over the ball or coming from underneath for topspin

generation?

 

[TennsDog]

I would like to see that. Are you rolling over the ball or coming from

underneath for topspin generation?

Just curious, why are you so interested in my forehand? I have modeled my forehand as it is now more or less like Federer's, which utilizes coming from underneath for topspin while letting the wrist go through contact to create penetration.

 

[SFrazeur]

Just curious, as well. People who use western grips tend to use lager racquet

heads; 95-100 sq. I was just wondering what motion you were using. Also, I have only used the PS

85 when teaching, so I have yet to try it with a western grip. Moreover, I like to collect information

whenever possible.

 

[yoga]

certainly you were serving with a stock racket i assume, yes?

 

[anirut]

Certain rackets for certain folks and certain strokes I should say ...

 

[Yondan]

I'm kind of surprised anyone can get that much spin from the LM Prestige mid. I used the MP before and had an amazingly difficult time getting any kind of spin.

I don't think this thread should get heated. It's a rather matter of fact thing for which I have simply provided blatant evidence. If people don't seem to get differing results from different frames, it is because the technique doesn't allow the racket's 'personality,' if you will, to shine through. When you use the racket properly, you'll see differences.

I think if your technique is right then the differences between rackets will be minor. Unless of course there is are BIG differences. You could just be more comfortable with the weight/balance/size of the PS 85 than you are with the 95. I've served and played with both and did not see large differences.

 

[BreakPoint]

Just curious, why are you so interested in my forehand? I have modeled my forehand as it is now more or less like Federer's, which utilizes coming from underneath for topspin while letting the wrist go through contact to create penetration.

But isn't Federer's forehand semi-western or somewhere between semi-western and eastern and not full western?

 

[SFrazeur]

But isn't Federer's forehand semi-western or somewhere between semi-western and eastern and not full western?

It is between. But, he said; modeled more or less.

 

[skraggle]

I'm not at all surprised to hear this. The PS 85 is hands down the best serving stick I've ever used. I CRUSHED the ball with it, and won the majority of my service games easily. But on my opponent's serve is where the dream died. I'm too damn old and slow to return well with it, and groundstrokes were the same story.

If I was younger and quicker, I would be using this racquet all the time. Luckily, I found my holy grail stick, so I can play all-court very effectively now.

Congrats, TennsDog. It sounds like your game was made for this amazing racquet...

 

[Big Fed]

TennsDog lemme get dat nCode 6.1 95 homie ya know help a brotha out ya feel me dude.

 

[MTChong]

I have always served better with smaller racquets as well - so far, I have served the best I ever have with Redondo Mids; they were going with more spin and more pace than with my Vantage 90s. The headsizes are similar.

However, your conclusion still may not be quite viable; it may just be true for you. Granted, aerodynamically, a smaller frame will cut through better and should be more manueverable - all other things being equal. What you did was hit serves with two different frames; the nSix-One and the PS 6.0 85. Perhaps if the specs and construction were the exact same all save the headsize (and other impossible changes associated with that such as string spacing/density and the such), then you can comfortably say that it is due to the smaller racquet. Perhaps a smaller headsize does play a role, but what I'm getting at is that it may not be as drastic. In Statistics anyways, we learned about lurking and confounding variables; there can easily be some with your experiment. There are too many intangibles, and in addition, you were - after all - serving with the venerable PS 6.0 85. That could easily affect your mentality when you approach serving, and in the end, you will have a lot of trouble discerning whether or not that's the case because it's your mind that may be deceiving you. And of course, there are a slew of other variables to consider along the same lines. I am just saying that different aspects of the frame - when compared to the nSix-One - may be suspect for causing such a dramatic difference. Perhaps all those individual factors add up to cause a big change, but still, I am skeptical. Remember the study done with Philippousis and the different racquets?

Well, all in all, it's great that you feel comfortable with the PS 6.0 85 and it has helped your serve; I'm not trying to knock your idea or go against Midsize racquets - I use mids myself and have been for around two years now; I'm just putting a disclaimer in this topic for other users to consider.

 

[TennsDog]

I have always served better with smaller racquets as well - so far, I have served the best I ever have with Redondo Mids; they were going with more spin and more pace than with my Vantage 90s. The headsizes are similar.

However, your conclusion still may not be quite viable; it may just be true for you. Granted, aerodynamically, a smaller frame will cut through better and should be more manueverable - all other things being equal. What you did was hit serves with two different frames; the nSix-One and the PS 6.0 85. Perhaps if the specs and construction were the exact same all save the headsize (and other impossible changes associated with that such as string spacing/density and the such), then you can comfortably say that it is due to the smaller racquet. Perhaps a smaller headsize does play a role, but what I'm getting at is that it may not be as drastic. In Statistics anyways, we learned about lurking and confounding variables; there can easily be some with your experiment. There are too many intangibles, and in addition, you were - after all - serving with the venerable PS 6.0 85. That could easily affect your mentality when you approach serving, and in the end, you will have a lot of trouble discerning whether or not that's the case because it's your mind that may be deceiving you. And of course, there are a slew of other variables to consider along the same lines. I am just saying that different aspects of the frame - when compared to the nSix-One - may be suspect for causing such a dramatic difference. Perhaps all those individual factors add up to cause a big change, but still, I am skeptical. Remember the study done with Philippousis and the different racquets?

Well, all in all, it's great that you feel comfortable with the PS 6.0 85 and it has helped your serve; I'm not trying to knock your idea or go against Midsize racquets - I use mids myself and have been for around two years now; I'm just putting a disclaimer in this topic for other users to consider.

I never said anything about midsize rackets in this thread. This thread is just about any racket making an impact on your serve effectiveness. My improvement happened to come from a smaller head, but that's not what I was talking about.

 

[TennsDog]

But isn't Federer's forehand semi-western or somewhere between semi-western and eastern and not full western?

I modeled the motion of the forehand stroke after Federer's, not the grip too. You don't need to use the same grip to use the same motion. I've tried SW, but everything just sails long, so to heck with it. Western all the way!

 

[asdf1991]

I'm not at all surprised to hear this. The PS 85 is hands down the best serving stick I've ever used. I CRUSHED the ball with it, and won the majority of my service games easily. But on my opponent's serve is where the dream died. I'm too damn old and slow to return well with it, and groundstrokes were the same story.

If I was younger and quicker, I would be using this racquet all the time. Luckily, I found my holy grail stick, so I can play all-court very effectively now.

Congrats, TennsDog. It sounds like your game was made for this amazing racquet...

why not just serve with the 85 and change racquets when returning

 

[TennsDog]

why not just serve with the 85 and change racquets when returning

That would be too much of a struggle to make such a change every game. It ruins any chance you have of finding a groove with your strokes.

 

[anirut]

That would be too much of a struggle to make such a change every game. It ruins any chance you have of finding a groove with your strokes.

Unless, of course, you're groove to the two different rackets.

I used to do it, for fun matches of course. When I serve I'd use the 10VE Mid (a very good serving stick I should say). When my opponent serves I'd switch to my faithful Dunlop Revelation 90.

 

[ace of spades]

Wow there are some people who feel very strongly against this topic. I guess they decided to ignore it.

Also TennsDog the lm prestige mp gave me just as much action on serves as the new pd + i just tried out. Groundstrokes had less, but slices were so much better with the prestige.
Maybe its just my strokes.

 

[julianoz]

Tennsdog ignores the fact that there is a 10 sq in difference between the two racquets he tried. I think that is the difference.

 

[TennsDog]

Tennsdog ignores the fact that there is a 10 sq in difference between the two racquets he tried. I think that is the difference.

I didn't ignore anything. I never claimed the difference came from anything in particular. My only claim is that rackets can make a big difference in serves. I do think that the smaller head makes a difference, as does a heavier weight and slightly more distant sweet spot.

 

[AngeloDS]

For me, each racquet is about the same. The difference maker is your stroke & strings. Some racquets are suited for a very quick snap motion, some are better with a elongated and smooth flowing stroke.

The smaller heads for me require more wrist snap. While the bigger heads require less wrist snap and more of a full motion to achieve the same results.

And ick @ trying to copy Federer's forehand stroke with the western grip.

 

[OrangeOne]

And ick @ trying to copy Federer's forehand stroke with the western grip.

To be fair, the OP did say he "modelled" his stroke on Federer's, which is one step above so many others here who think they hit the same shot as player X. I think way too many people think that they are hitting FHs with the Fed motion and serves with the Roddick motion and etc etc.

The key word is "think", because in actuality, most people use their own motion and that's pretty much that. There's so many components to a shot, and so much of how we swing a racquet comes from our own physiology, that for it to be possible to copy someone else's shot (one of the best in the world at that) is remote. For it to be sensible / appropriate for us to do so - i'd suggest that's even more remote....

 

[Keifers]

No offense, but I would say that, others specs being equal, smaller heads allow more wrist snap because they move (or cut) through the air more easily.

 

[TennsDog]

I don't have any actual facts to prove it or anything, but I think people highly over-estimate the effect beam thickness or head size on aerodynamics of a racket. The truth is an extra few mm of thickness or an extra inch or two of circumference aren't likely to appreciably increase air drag. Of course, this is all likely irrelevent anyway, since you won't find rackets with all the same specs except headsize or beam thickness.

Something I have come to realize as of late is that mental expectations and perception can change a lot with regard to how you play or how a racket feels. As others have mentioned, people often play better with a new racket because it's NEW and better and they expect as much. Once you're used to it, you lose that mental state and you revert back to a lesser game.

 

[Tim Set Match]

As others have mentioned, people often play better with a new racket because it's NEW and better and they expect as much. Once you're used to it, you lose that mental state and you revert back to a lesser game.

Ha, I have noticed this too.

 

[NamRanger]

To be fair, the OP did say he "modelled" his stroke on Federer's, which is one step above so many others here who think they hit the same shot as player X. I think way too many people think that they are hitting FHs with the Fed motion and serves with the Roddick motion and etc etc.

The key word is "think", because in actuality, most people use their own motion and that's pretty much that. There's so many components to a shot, and so much of how we swing a racquet comes from our own physiology, that for it to be possible to copy someone else's shot (one of the best in the world at that) is remote. For it to be sensible / appropriate for us to do so - i'd suggest that's even more remote....

Federer's forehand can be copied up to a point. It is based off of the same classical tennis techinque after all.


Roddick's serve motion cannot. You can try and try as hard as you might, but Roddick can use that serve motion because he has INSANE shoulder rotation, and a huge back bend, allowing him to accelerate his racquet quickly. His serve motion is fast, quick, and it's explosive, and UNIQUE to him.