Like Ships In The Night

[Cindysphinx]

Goodness. Another weird thing happened with my ladies team last night!

My ladies 6.5 team was to play at a particular facility that hosts many of our matches. I think there are about 12 indoor courts, separated into three wings. Each wing of four courts is split by a walkway/viewing area. There is also a lobby and restrooms, of course. There are many outdoor courts and a hitting wall. It's a big, chaotic place.

Our matches are timed to 90 minutes. Local rule says captains must exchange line-ups 5 minutes ahead of time. Failure to exchange on time is punishable by loss of toss and a game on all courts. Failure to exchange by match start time is a triple default. Believe you me, people do impose the penalty. Those penalized suck it up, 'cause they know the rules and the importance of starting on time.

OK. I was at the facility playing for a different team and so did not captain this ladies match. My substitute captain started looking for her counterpart from the other team 10 minutes before match time. Then she waited by the designated courts for the match, which was to start at 9:30. At 9:29 (or 9:27 according to the opposing captain), the other captain showed up courtside with her team and a completed line-up card. My captain said she was imposing the penalty of loss of toss and one game. The other captain said she was waiting to exchange line-ups in the lobby and refused to agree that a penalty was appropriate. They decided to just play the match and figure it out later, but they got a late start because of the need to get everyone to their courts and agree on a time-piece, etc. We won two courts, thank goodness.

When I captain, I start looking for my counterpart at least 10 minutes ahead. I wait by the courts, if possible. On one occasion, I searched this facility for several minutes, even confirming with the front desk that no one from the opposing squad had checked in or obtained a warm-up court. It turned out that the opposing team was meeting in the ladies restroom, of all places! Again, matches started late due to our failure to connect.

This morning, my captain asked me whether she had handled the whole thing correctly, so I wrote to the league coordinator (copying the opposing captain) posing two questions: where should captains be while waiting to exchange line-ups, and what should be done when one team believes a time penalty is authorized but the other team disagrees? Obviously, this is something that must be resolved one way or the other before the teams take the court.

Opposing captain gave her side of the story, which varies in that she says she and her teammates were standing in the lobby wondering how come the Sphinx team didn't show up.

So. Who was wrong here? Does anyone's league have a clear rule about where captains/teams must be in order to be in timely compliance with the rules regarding line-up exchange?

 

[Xisbum]

It seems the league coordinator and/or the rules are a bit vague. They should stipulate a common place with a clock - probably the reception desk - for all pre-match meetings between captains. Your point on the different physical layouts at different clubs is a good one, so it should be crystal clear where that meeting should be.

Your team probably didn't win its argument because this is a she said/she said situation where the coordinator really doesn't know what happened. She/he should immediately correct the confusion to avoid this in the future.

My 2 cents, which isn't worth much these days.:neutral:

 

[saram]

In all honesty--the time thing to me is just terrible. None of the players are professional players--they all have kids, families, work, traffic to deal with, etc. Sometimes, someone has to work a few minutes late and for that to cause a default, loss of the toss, point, etc., is just a little too much to me. I do understand that you are probably playing on courts that are booked/reserved and there is money involved. Unfortunately, a little lenience would be appropriate.

I am much more flexible. If someone on another team calls and says they will be 30 minutes late, I accept it and understand it. People are humans, make mistakes, sleep in, etc.

I understand you guys have rules, but for a league coordinator to be involved in this just establishes why league coordinators are so far behind in all the other things they have to handle, and well--coordinate.

 

[JavierLW]

Goodness. Another weird thing happened with my ladies team last night!

My ladies 6.5 team was to play at a particular facility that hosts many of our matches. I think there are about 12 indoor courts, separated into three wings. Each wing of four courts is split by a walkway/viewing area. There is also a lobby and restrooms, of course. There are many outdoor courts and a hitting wall. It's a big, chaotic place.

Our matches are timed to 90 minutes. Local rule says captains must exchange line-ups 5 minutes ahead of time. Failure to exchange on time is punishable by loss of toss and a game on all courts. Failure to exchange by match start time is a triple default. Believe you me, people do impose the penalty. Those penalized suck it up, 'cause they know the rules and the importance of starting on time.

OK. I was at the facility playing for a different team and so did not captain this ladies match. My substitute captain started looking for her counterpart from the other team 10 minutes before match time. Then she waited by the designated courts for the match, which was to start at 9:30. At 9:29 (or 9:27 according to the opposing captain), the other captain showed up courtside with her team and a completed line-up card. My captain said she was imposing the penalty of loss of toss and one game. The other captain said she was waiting to exchange line-ups in the lobby and refused to agree that a penalty was appropriate. They decided to just play the match and figure it out later, but they got a late start because of the need to get everyone to their courts and agree on a time-piece, etc. We won two courts, thank goodness.

When I captain, I start looking for my counterpart at least 10 minutes ahead. I wait by the courts, if possible. On one occasion, I searched this facility for several minutes, even confirming with the front desk that no one from the opposing squad had checked in or obtained a warm-up court. It turned out that the opposing team was meeting in the ladies restroom, of all places! Again, matches started late due to our failure to connect.

This morning, my captain asked me whether she had handled the whole thing correctly, so I wrote to the league coordinator (copying the opposing captain) posing two questions: where should captains be while waiting to exchange line-ups, and what should be done when one team believes a time penalty is authorized but the other team disagrees? Obviously, this is something that must be resolved one way or the other before the teams take the court.

Opposing captain gave her side of the story, which varies in that she says she and her teammates were standing in the lobby wondering how come the Sphinx team didn't show up.

So. Who was wrong here? Does anyone's league have a clear rule about where captains/teams must be in order to be in timely compliance with the rules regarding line-up exchange?

Ive been a member of indoor clubs for a long time and usually when you are meeting someone it's traditional that you meet them in the lobby.

If you dont see them when you arrive, you ask the front desk if they have checked in.

Ive never expected them to wait around the actual tennis courts, nor have I waited around the tennis courts for fear that they are going to show up and will be waiting for me in the lobby. (everyone has to pass thru the lobby at some point) Unless I arrive late, I probally would never expect that the are sitting on the actual court. (because they cant go on anyway until it's our time)

I will admit though that it's different from an outdoor venue where there is no lobby or receptionist. Then you wait right by the tennis courts or on the tennis courts. (we dont have timed outdoor matches here, if you find an open court you usually sit on it)

It's like when you lose your wife or husband in the store and you start wandering all over the store looking for them, while they are wandering all over the store as well which takes hours sometimes, rather than just wait in one specific place.

 

[cak]

In all honesty--the time thing to me is just terrible. None of the players are professional players--they all have kids, families, work, traffic to deal with, etc. Sometimes, someone has to work a few minutes late and for that to cause a default, loss of the toss, point, etc., is just a little too much to me. I do understand that you are probably playing on courts that are booked/reserved and there is money involved. Unfortunately, a little lenience would be appropriate.

I am much more flexible. If someone on another team calls and says they will be 30 minutes late, I accept it and understand it. People are humans, make mistakes, sleep in, etc.

I understand you guys have rules, but for a league coordinator to be involved in this just establishes why league coordinators are so far behind in all the other things they have to handle, and well--coordinate.

I'm with you saram, but, this is booked, timed, indoor courts. If someone is 30 minutes late they only get to play 60 minutes, and there is no makeup later rule. So for this type of situation I can see where being on time is essential.

In our area, where you are playing on outdoor courts, there is a 15 minute AFTER the official start time grace period. For a 6pm match, if the opponent has showed their face by 6:15 they are considered on time. Lineups are exchanged after everyone is there, though in cases of split times or someone coming late sometimes the captains make a deal and get people out on the courts earlier. You are supposed to default from the bottom up, so putting the second doubles out before the whole first doubles team arrives is a bit tricky.

 

[saram]

I'm with you saram, but, this is booked, timed, indoor courts. If someone is 30 minutes late they only get to play 60 minutes, and there is no makeup later rule. So for this type of situation I can see where being on time is essential.

In our area, where you are playing on outdoor courts, there is a 15 minute AFTER the official start time grace period. For a 6pm match, if the opponent has showed their face by 6:15 they are considered on time. Lineups are exchanged after everyone is there, though in cases of split times or someone coming late sometimes the captains make a deal and get people out on the courts earlier. You are supposed to default from the bottom up, so putting the second doubles out before the whole first doubles team arrives is a bit tricky.

I agree--if two teams are playing on an indoor court/facility and someone is 15 minutes late, you have some trouble. After warm-ups, etc..you really are limited on time. In Cindy's explanation--we are talking about 1 minute of time which is kinda tough. I'm pretty sure that people had access to cell phones, the team in question that was late could have called, said they were within minutes of the court, that their line-ups were completed, etc and to let Cindy's team hit the courts and start warming up. Sometimes, just a little courtesy like that will go a long way...

 

[Topaz]

I agree--if two teams are playing on an indoor court/facility and someone is 15 minutes late, you have some trouble. After warm-ups, etc..you really are limited on time. In Cindy's explanation--we are talking about 1 minute of time which is kinda tough. I'm pretty sure that people had access to cell phones, the team in question that was late could have called, said they were within minutes of the court, that their line-ups were completed, etc and to let Cindy's team hit the courts and start warming up. Sometimes, just a little courtesy like that will go a long way...

Saram, it isn't an issue of Cindy's team not being courteous. This is a matter of people following rules. You do not do yourself or anybody else on your team a favor if you do not follow them. The time limits are *strictly* enforced, and everyone knows that going in. When you have 90 minutes for your match, including warm-up, every minute counts. FWIW, I do believe that there is a small grace period of 1-3 minutes.

Cindy, down here we have to exchange the line-ups 10 minutes in advance...that gives people a bit more time to get things in order. Unfortunately, none of our facilities really have anyplace where you would pass like ships in the night...even in the bathrooms! They aren't that big.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Yeah, I think 5 minutes is insane. In that 5 minutes, we are supposed to copy the opposing captain's line-up on the two scorecards. Then decide who plays on what court. Then decide what the time-piece will be and write that on the scoresheet (with each captaining initialing the agreement). Then we agree who will be red and who will be black on the little flip cards for keeping score. Then we have to meet with all players and tell them the agreement on time and tell the players who they are playing. Then we have to walk to the courts. Then the players take the court, introduce themselves and confirm the time agreement.

All of that is too much for 5 minutes.

 

[saram]

Saram, it isn't an issue of Cindy's team not being courteous. This is a matter of people following rules. You do not do yourself or anybody else on your team a favor if you do not follow them. The time limits are *strictly* enforced, and everyone knows that going in. When you have 90 minutes for your match, including warm-up, every minute counts. FWIW, I do believe that there is a small grace period of 1-3 minutes.

Cindy, down here we have to exchange the line-ups 10 minutes in advance...that gives people a bit more time to get things in order. Unfortunately, none of our facilities really have anyplace where you would pass like ships in the night...even in the bathrooms! They aren't that big.

I didn't say her team was not being courteous. And, I said if a team is 15 minutes late within that facility--you have some trouble.