Martina at the Aussie.

BTURNER

Legend
We talk a lot about Evert missing chances of some easy majors at RG,extending her clay GOAT status, but how many Aussies could Martina have collected with more consistent attendance? Her actual record prior to '88, is 3 wins + 3 runner-ups + 2 semifinal finishes and zero earlier round losses in 8 attempts on the higher bouncing drier grass of Kooyung.

It looks like an Evertish kind of consistency record at a major except she did not play from 1976-1979, after reaching the final in 1975, losing to Goolagong. That is 4 years of potential add-ons to the 18 majors she has and irrefutable proof of her GOAT grass-court status.

let's look at the draws and finalists in those 4 events.

1976 8 seeds in order were: Goolagong, Melville, Niessen-Masthoff, Barker, Tomanova, Gourlay, Turner-Bowrey, Young. No one here is stopping even a young Martina from reaching the semis and finals in my view, and she a good chance of beating all but Evonne. Certainly the eventual finalist Tomanova isn't a shoe -in over Navratilova. Still, no doubt she loses to the same woman who beat her the year before.

1977 4 seeds (my source does not go lower this year) in order were: Fromholtz (1) Melville-Reid, Gourlay, Nagelson. other possibilities were Judy Tegart (lost in 1st round), Karen Krantzcke (semi) and '78 winner Chris O'Neil. Looks like easy fairly pickings for Martina a year before she won Wimbledon and a potential 19th major.

1978 7 seeds listed on the site: Barker (1), Tomanova, Beth Norton, Amanda Tobin, Rene Blount,Cynthia Doerner, Nagelson,The only other name I recognise is Chris O'Neil. I see Martina with a solid 20th major and 5 Aussies thus far.

1979 : 8 seeds listed but # 6 is somehow missing! Ruzici (#1 lost in first rd), Mandlikova (lost in the QF's)Tomanova,Sharon Walsh, Barbara Jordan, Janet Newberry Cynthia Doerner Hana wasn't a threat yet to Martina and had few big wins at this stage. I see a 21 st major championship here for Martina.

Of course this all begs the question of how much real importance to put on these tournaments, but we do forget that these actually were grapes sitting on a vine for Navratilova or for Evert who won her first Wimbledon in 1976 and reached the finals down here in 1974! Evert did not suffer a loss to Martina on Grass until 1978. They might have split them had they both come down. But I can't imagine either woman is defeating Goolagong in 1976
 
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AngieB

Banned
For the same reasons the Selesians cannot diminish Steffi Graf's grand slam singles major accomplishments is the same reason it isn't a good idea to speculate on who might have won when where because of what.

Martina was fortunate to have won the 18 grand slam singles titles she did, considering it took until her mid 20's to get into better shape and get her head together. Martina was not at her best pre-1981 and she was not a shoe-in to win any major during that period. A better argument in this regard could be made for Chris Evert at the French Open in the 1970's, but we all know why that's not a very good idea.

GoneWiththeWindFab.gif


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AngieB​
 

suwanee4712

Professional
If Martina can win Wimbledon in 78 and 79 with better fields than the Australian, she certainly could've won those titles too. But that's the trouble with these things, there's always the possibility that she wouldn't have won them even though the chance was minute.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
I think, in general, Navratilova doesn't get discussed as much as her fellow greats. I'm not sure why, but she doesn't seem to generate the intense like, or dislike, that others appear to on TW.
As an aside, does anyone know of a link to her loss to Sukova at the AO- I even tried the AO site, but no joy.
 

kiki

Banned
Martina´s 79 season is, by some unnatural reason, the best hidden secret on the female´s tour since the open era began.
 

itoaxel

Banned
The only way it even makes sense to consider what if certain players played at a given slam who didn't, is to consider what if the slams were truly viewed as slams then and everyone played. In that scenario Martina probably only gains 1 slam- 1 of the 78 or 79 Australian Opens. Despite winning Wimbledon both years she wasn't even absolutely dominant on grass back then. She played Evert 4 times on grass in 78-79, lost once in straight sets, won once in straight sets, and won two of them very deep in a 5th set, once saving match points, once recovering from 4-2 in the 3rd to win 7-5. So a split of the two Australians between them seems the most reasonable guess. Before 78 she wasn't a slam caliber player (in a full field/true slam) on any surface, and she did play the 80 Australian Open on grass and lost.

Evert meanwhile would likely have won 3 additional French Opens and about 3 additional Australian Opens (half of the 75-80 ones) had they been fully recognized and attended slams, giving her 24 slams to 19 for Martina in that scenario, and everyone would rank Chris >>>> Martina all time today, even with Martina's dominance of Chris in 83-84. I don't see why this is a scenario a Martina supporter would even desire considering, but to each their own I guess.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
For the same reasons the Selesians cannot diminish Steffi Graf's grand slam singles major accomplishments is the same reason it isn't a good idea to speculate on who might have won when where because of what.

Martina was fortunate to have won the 18 grand slam singles titles she did, considering it took until her mid 20's to get into better shape and get her head together. Martina was not at her best pre-1981 and she was not a shoe-in to win any major during that period. A better argument in this regard could be made for Chris Evert at the French Open in the 1970's, but we all know why that's not a very good idea.

GoneWiththeWindFab.gif


#PTL JC4Ever

AngieB​

I don't understand how you can consider Martina "fortunate" to have won as many Slams as she did. :confused: The fact that she worked harder on her fitness and developed a better mentality just shows how much she wanted to succeed so how on earth can you say she was fortunate? It almost sounds like you're intimating that she shouldn't have been awarded for trying to improve her career which is obviously ludicrous. She deserved every single one of her 18 Slams and no credit should be taken away from her extraordinary accomplishments, not by you or anybody.
 

AngieB

Banned
I don't understand how you can consider Martina "fortunate" to have won as many Slams as she did. :confused: The fact that she worked harder on her fitness and developed a better mentality just shows how much she wanted to succeed so how on earth can you say she was fortunate? It almost sounds like you're intimating that she shouldn't have been awarded for trying to improve her career which is obviously ludicrous. She deserved every single one of her 18 Slams and no credit should be taken away from her extraordinary accomplishments, not by you or anybody.
Are you okay, hun?

Were you aware that at age 25, Martina only held (3) grand slam singles titles? Were you aware that Martina won 15 after the age of 25, which no woman had done prior or has done since. It is a HUGE anomaly in women's tennis history. I stand by my statement that she was very fortunate to have turned her career around at such a late age given that it had never been done before. Tennis players have a short shelf life and rebooting a career that late from a mediocre to that of an All-Time Great is almost unheard of (absent Serena and Margaret CYGS at age 29).

FYI, Martina's problem pre-1981 wasn't just physical. Her forehand volley was widely known to fail her during critical points in matches. She also had to work on her psyche.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​
 
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Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Are you okay, hun?

Were you aware that at age 25, Martina only held (3) grand slam singles titles? Were you aware that Martina won 15 after the age of 25, which no woman had done prior or has done since. It is a HUGE anomaly in women's tennis history. I stand by my statement that she was very fortunate to have turned her career around at such a late age given that it had never been done before. Tennis players have a short shelf life and rebooting a career that late from a mediocre to that of an All-Time Great is almost unheard of (absent Serena).

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

Ah, so you're suggesting she did something untoward in order to turn her career around like she did. Funny thing is you admonish posters on here(and rightly so) for saying that Serena has taken PEDs throughout her career and yet here you are intimating that Martina did the exact same thing. Hypocrite much?
 

AngieB

Banned
For the same reasons the Selesians cannot diminish Steffi Graf's grand slam singles major accomplishments is the same reason it isn't a good idea to speculate on who might have won when where because of what.

Martina was fortunate to have won the 18 grand slam singles titles she did, considering it took until her mid 20's to get into better shape and get her head together. Martina was not at her best pre-1981 and she was not a shoe-in to win any major during that period. A better argument in this regard could be made for Chris Evert at the French Open in the 1970's, but we all know why that's not a very good idea.

GoneWiththeWindFab.gif


#PTL JC4Ever

AngieB​

Are you okay, hun?

Were you aware that at age 25, Martina only held (3) grand slam singles titles? Were you aware that Martina won 15 after the age of 25, which no woman had done prior or has done since. It is a HUGE anomaly in women's tennis history. I stand by my statement that she was very fortunate to have turned her career around at such a late age given that it had never been done before. Tennis players have a short shelf life and rebooting a career that late from a mediocre to that of an All-Time Great is almost unheard of (absent Serena and Margaret CYGS at age 29).

FYI, Martina's problem pre-1981 wasn't just physical. Her forehand volley was widely known to fail her during critical points in matches. She also had to work on her psyche.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

Ah, so you're suggesting she did something untoward in order to turn her career around like she did. Funny thing is you admonish posters on here(and rightly so) for saying that Serena has taken PEDs throughout her career and yet here you are intimating that Martina did the exact same thing. Hypocrite much?

Are you drinking tonight? I haven't mentioned the word PED one time in this thread. YOU brought up the subject, which makes me think that YOU might be suspicious of Martina.

Not my circus, not my monkeys.

But if you would like to have that discussion, we can. It would be a waste of time, but we can do it if you like.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
^^^ So if that's not what you were suggesting, how else do you explain her winning so much after the age of 25? Could it be that, shock horror, she was just a really great tennis player and had nothing to do with being "fortunate"???
 

AngieB

Banned
^^^ So if that's not what you were suggesting, how else do you explain her winning so much after the age of 25? Could it be that, shock horror, she was just a really great tennis player and had nothing to do with being "fortunate"???
I attribute Martina's mid-career reboot to her relationship with Nancy Liberman and her coach Dr. Renee' Richards, who also gave medical advice as needed.

edit: I forgot to mention Mike Estep post Dr. Renee' Richards

also, DJOKOVIC2011 is majoring in minors. again.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​
 
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Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
I attribute Martina's mid-career reboot to her relationship with Nancy Liberman and her coach Dr. Renee' Richards, who also gave medical advice as needed.

edit: I forgot to mention Mike Estep post Dr. Renee' Richards

also, DJOKOVIC2011 is majoring in minors. again.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

So it had nothing to do with her hard work and dedication but was solely down to those closest to her? Gotcha. And how am I majoring in minors sweetie??
 

AngieB

Banned
So it had nothing to do with her hard work and dedication but was solely down to those closest to her? Gotcha. And how am I majoring in minors sweetie??
DJOKOVIC2011, you are focusing on some imagined, self-reflected negative perception that holds no validity. THAT is majoring in minors. Who has time for that?

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​
 
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Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
DJOKOVIC2011, you are focusing on some imagined, self-reflected negative perception that holds no validity. THAT is majoring in minors.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

You're absolutely right. Ad now I'm gonna take a leaf out of Martina's book and take a trip up major highway, grab a nice hot chocolate from the nearest diner and get a good night's sleep. A bientot!
 

AngieB

Banned
You're absolutely right. Ad now I'm gonna take a leaf out of Martina's book and take a trip up major highway, grab a nice hot chocolate from the nearest diner and get a good night's sleep. A bientot!
Thank you, DJOKOVIC2011, but I rarely drink hot chocolate because of the sugar content and I don't consume artificial sweetner. You might have read about that. It's 2145 here and I don't go to bed before 2300 most nights. I like crossword puzzles.

edit: I misread and thought DJOKOVIC2011 was offering me hot chocolate. My bad. Have a good evening!

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​
 
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PMChambers

Hall of Fame
I put Martina as my No.1 female all time great, and probably unlucky in a lot of respects. I place her above Court, Graff and Evert. Martina had a slow start because she was self developed and did not have the support the other greats possessed. When looking at all greats nearly all have had great teams behind them, even looking at a sound player like Murray it was not until Lendl assisted di he win GS. Graf was nationally trained at a very early age and boomed onto the tour, Court was surrounded by the Aussie contingent both male and female and Evert was well trained and probably had a little help from Connors and likely many others as well. Martina was alone to a greater extent and mor of a rough diamond that took a while to polish. She developed one of the best all round games of all time, though a little mentally suspect. I look at Martina and think what she could have done at 18 if she had a great coach and team behind her.
 

itoaxel

Banned
I put Martina as my No.1 female all time great, and probably unlucky in a lot of respects. I place her above Court, Graff and Evert. Martina had a slow start because she was self developed and did not have the support the other greats possessed. When looking at all greats nearly all have had great teams behind them, even looking at a sound player like Murray it was not until Lendl assisted di he win GS. Graf was nationally trained at a very early age and boomed onto the tour, Court was surrounded by the Aussie contingent both male and female and Evert was well trained and probably had a little help from Connors and likely many others as well. Martina was alone to a greater extent and mor of a rough diamond that took a while to polish. She developed one of the best all round games of all time, though a little mentally suspect. I look at Martina and think what she could have done at 18 if she had a great coach and team behind her.

You could make those arguments for Martina but you could make different ones for other players.

-Graf was probably fortunate especialy in 93-95 with the Seles stabbing. However how much more would she have won if it weren't for her crazy father who dramatically affected her tennis at various points, and of course being so injury proned and her career virtually ended by major surgery in 97 when it looked likely she had another 6 or more slams in her (she ultimately won only another 1 more).

-What if Court had not gotten pregnant 3 times while at the height of her powers and had to take breaks from the game. Scary to think how many slams she would have won. Also what if everyone had played the Australian Open and she been fully recognized for her wins there rather than them lowballed (since she would have won 7-9 of them anyway, much more than people seem willing to credit her with).

-What if Evert had played all those Australian and French Opens in the 70s (just like Martina assuming a full field and everyone else playing them too), and while slightly past her prime but still dominating the field didn't face peak Martina in the late 81-85 period which denied her so many extra slams. Without those two factors she probably has about 35 slams. Compared to Martina who had she played all the Australian and French Opens and no Chris would still have only about 22, yet this factor is brought up for her as it is for Chris equally or even stronger for Martina which is a laughable myth that has developed over the years.
 

itoaxel

Banned
Should also add what if Serena didn't have 2 major accidents- her knee surgery in late 2003, and her restaurant accident in late 2010, while at both times totally dominating the game, needing to miss numerous slams, recuperate, and regain all the lost momentum. Would she already have broken Court's record? Quite possibly.
 

kiki

Banned
The only purpose of that insane Martina dismissal is to minimize Hana wins,many of them during Navratilova' s prime.
On the long term,Chris was better than Navy on hard and clay just as Martina was better on grass and carpet
Their rivalry is just so great and memorable because of how mega tight it was
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
The only purpose of that insane Martina dismissal is to minimize Hana wins,many of them during Navratilova' s prime.
On the long term,Chris was better than Navy on hard and clay just as Martina was better on grass and carpet
Their rivalry is just so great and memorable because of how mega tight it was

There will never be a rivalry like it again. The women's game today is sadly lacking as there is nothing even close to a rivalry, unless you count Cornet/Williams ;)
 

kiki

Banned
There will never be a rivalry like it again. The women's game today is sadly lacking as there is nothing even close to a rivalry, unless you count Cornet/Williams ;)

To me it should be obvious that that rivalry made the women´s tennis game
 

kiki

Banned
People were watching plenty of women's tennis before the Martina and Chrissy rivalry, compelling as it was!

True, and I still recall King vs Court, Goolagong vs Evert and Court vs Bueno ( an exceptional rivalry ).But Navratilova vs Evert had a similar impact to the game as Borg vs Mc Enroe ( even if there had formerly been rivalries like Rosewall-Laver,Borg-Connors,Connors-Mc Enroe or Nastase and Smith just as good)
 

Vanhool

Hall of Fame
True, and I still recall King vs Court, Goolagong vs Evert and Court vs Bueno ( an exceptional rivalry ).But Navratilova vs Evert had a similar impact to the game as Borg vs Mc Enroe ( even if there had formerly been rivalries like Rosewall-Laver,Borg-Connors,Connors-Mc Enroe or Nastase and Smith just as good)

In a way, the popularity of King et al is what generated the momentum for people to be sucked in to the CE/MN rivalry. People were already into it, and when this started up it was popcorn time :)
 

kiki

Banned
In a way, the popularity of King et al is what generated the momentum for people to be sucked in to the CE/MN rivalry. People were already into it, and when this started up it was popcorn time :)

True.

and there were also great rivalries going on at the very same moment: Austin vs Evert and Navratilova and Mandlikova vs Navratilova.Mandlikova vs Evert was also a great and fun one.
 
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