Myths, Lies, and Misinformation in Tennis

BillyIdol

Rookie
Tennis instruction is so full of myths, lies, and misinformation! Getting solid tennis instruction is very hard to come by! I believe that if we scrapped all of myths, lies, and misinformation from tennis instruction that most people (if they are motivated) can rapidly advance from 1.5 to 4.5 and beyond! Rapidly meaning in about two years or less! But we hold onto our faulty strokes because we don't know who to turn to, we were self taught, and we want to keep on winning (even if it is at a low level and we will never advance past that level (3.5)). There is so much we don't know, and a lot of what we do know is just plain wrong! We go to instructors and some are good, and some really are quite bad! I think that this is part of the reason that tennis is dying in America! There is so much bad tennis advice/instruction out there! And there are so few sources of real, solid tennis instruction! I have been fairly successful with the information from easitennis.com, Tennis Mastery by David Smith, and Winning Ugly. I may try tennisplayer.net and maybe tennisone.com! Opinions? Thoughts?

John
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
The problem is determining what are the myths--and what are the facts--and what facts we can actually know--and how we can know them. And if we know them, how we can use them.

I would have to agree that it seems instruction often holds players back. But I think we have to be careful about blaming the instructors. Tennis is just now crossing over the edge from the dark ages into a period with the potential for greater light.

The situation has been almost literally feudal. Various warlords with secret knowledge that only they possess--and that you could only learn from them--and the other warlords are viewed almost like evil rivals. Heated debates and name calling, etc. This was because it has all been based on opinion.

The human eye just isn't fast enough to really see what really happens in the tennis strokes. Now we are moving into a period where we have more and more visual resources to start to actually see. Being a responsible teacher should mean trying to validate and reevaluate everything you believe against any and all data. And more and more teachers are moving in that direction.

Unfortunately even high speed video sometimes leads to as many new questions as it answers. There is also a whole new informational resource looming on the horizon--this is quantitative analysis. It will take us further no doubt but may be decades away from general dissemination and use.

But even if (or when) we know every possible fact and measurement, the game is still too complex and varied to think we are going to reach consensus.
I think the best we can hope for is sorta like the new model in health care--you've got to be your own doctor. Find out as much as you can. Ask questions and go with your gut. Be ready to change and evolve. And make coaches and teachers validate or defend what they expound--or validate it for yourself with your own video study and other research.
 

Leon

Rookie
I have to agree about bad instructors, at least here in CT. I used to take lessons from guy "local pro" and pay steep price, and actually learn nothing, was lucky to find a good instructor. Also saw many high school "coaches", that are 2.0 level (I'm not kidding). I hope there are a really good ones, but didn't see many in CT.

What I'm doing, is definitely listening to my instructor, but also doing my own research, and set goals, and usually I come for a lesson while I know what I want to work on, and how it should look like at the end.
 

Exile

Professional
so you mean painting flames and racing stripes on your racket wont give you better head speed? ;-)
 

donnyz89

Hall of Fame
Exile said:
so you mean painting flames and racing stripes on your racket wont give you better head speed? ;-)

really depend on the color, some colors absorb more friction and some are not as absorbant... i prefer cold colors because they feel much smoother.
 

NoBadMojo

G.O.A.T.
i think at the root of their being many not so good 'tennis teaching pros' is the lack of involvement by the USTA, especially compared to the PGA. The PGA has a serious apprenticeship program and you dont instantly become a 'Club Pro'. you pay your dues by learning all aspects of the game and you learn teaching techniques and everythng! it's a process....to be a tennis teaching pro all you really need to have is some money and a free weekend..you dont need to even be a decent player let alone know how to teach...the process of becoming a certified teaching pro is as little as a weekend depending upon which certification you choose..wanna be a teaching pro? just plunk down some money.......the USTA does nothing to ensure that certified teaching pros are actually qualified. the USTA is lame.
 

spinbalz

Hall of Fame
BillyIdol, not everybody can play 4.5, you can give the best tennis advices in the world to a player, but it won't change his natural hand eye coordination ability.
 

papa

Hall of Fame
spinbalz said:
BillyIdol, not everybody can play 4.5, you can give the best tennis advices in the world to a player, but it won't change his natural hand eye coordination ability.

Yes and a good example might be Little League Baseball or soccer where "most" kids get some pretty good "basic" instruction on playing. Like you said, not everyone exposed to these programs makes it to the majors - probably 1 in 10,000.

However, I agree that there is some pretty poor instruction "out there" in many forms. Many times, and we've seen it here many times, good players do not have either the information/knowledge, motivation, work ethic or ability to be acceptable instructors - as a matter of fact they can provide a host of "bad" information and end up turning lots of players against the sport. Its one thing to play the game but another to teach others how to play.
 

fishuuuuu

Hall of Fame
I don't really ever think I will reach 4.5 in my life. But just as a casual 2.0 or less I would to say that all instructors have an adequate amount of

information/knowledge, motivation, work ethic or ability to be acceptable instructors

However, this greater knowledge and ability they have isn't usually used to improve the student. It's to improve the beam width of their wallets. Even the local teaching pro here spouts some of the nonsensical sh*t out of his mouth, but no kids here know the truth to object to him.

And I suppose it makes sense for them to do this. But it doesn't help the kids and it doesn't help the sport. If they can make a few more dollars by teaching the kid the wrong technique or "forget" to tell them key techniques then they will do it... it's the sad truth =\
 

tennislover

New User
this is atough subject, but you can horribly miss a ball and have it fall for an expert-like drop shot or likewise. You can still hit good shots with bad technique and form- thats why it is so tough to say wahts right and whats wrong when both work.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
NoBadMojo said:
i think at the root of their being many not so good 'tennis teaching pros' is the lack of involvement by the USTA, especially compared to the PGA. The PGA has a serious apprenticeship program and you dont instantly become a 'Club Pro'. you pay your dues by learning all aspects of the game and you learn teaching techniques and everythng! it's a process....to be a tennis teaching pro all you really need to have is some money and a free weekend..you dont need to even be a decent player let alone know how to teach...the process of becoming a certified teaching pro is as little as a weekend depending upon which certification you choose..wanna be a teaching pro? just plunk down some money.......the USTA does nothing to ensure that certified teaching pros are actually qualified. the USTA is lame.

Gee maybe in your part of the woods it is like that but in So. Cal. that aint so.

It is true that SOME tennis coaches make it through the certification that need more experience or should wait a couple years gathering more teaching knowledge, but to say "many" is implying you are saying the majority which I disagree.

In So. California there are a lot of good tennis coaches who are also excellent players. Just come on over and test the waters.

Many of the good tennis coaches or ones that had the talent to be excellent coaches left the tennis industry. Competing for $'s and trying to make a spot on the club roster is highly competitive and many coaches spend years trying to build their businesses just to make a decent living.

To say someone just needs to pay their "dues" and they get in is also a myth and farfetched. Maybe in your area it is easy to be certified but not so easy down here.

When I tested the players trying get certified were x-division I college players and had a lot of knowledge about the game. Most importantly they were good people. They were being groomed under veteran coaches to improve their lesson planning and teaching skills. It would be a little stupid to think everyone needs to be at Brad Gilberts level right off the bat.

No business is perfect and their are always those that "skate" through college, business, sports, and even tennis. Keep it in perspective.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
BillyIdol said:
Tennis instruction is so full of myths, lies, and misinformation! Getting solid tennis instruction is very hard to come by! I believe that if we scrapped all of myths, lies, and misinformation from tennis instruction that most people (if they are motivated) can rapidly advance from 1.5 to 4.5 and beyond! Rapidly meaning in about two years or less! But we hold onto our faulty strokes because we don't know who to turn to, we were self taught, and we want to keep on winning (even if it is at a low level and we will never advance past that level (3.5)). There is so much we don't know, and a lot of what we do know is just plain wrong! We go to instructors and some are good, and some really are quite bad! I think that this is part of the reason that tennis is dying in America! There is so much bad tennis advice/instruction out there! And there are so few sources of real, solid tennis instruction! I have been fairly successful with the information from easitennis.com, Tennis Mastery by David Smith, and Winning Ugly. I may try tennisplayer.net and maybe tennisone.com! Opinions? Thoughts?

John

Well you have a right to complain about anything you want.

You said a "lot we do know is plain wrong." Could you tell us what? Can you be specific.

There is a lot of excellent instruction and a lot of excellent coaches. Some of the instruction like "wrist snap" was around for years and developed into something I wish it didn't.

A lot of our instructional base is still excellent and will be staples forever. Thinkgs like:

1. Keeping your head still

2. Preparing early

3. Bending the knees

4. Footwork patterns

5. Level and square racquet face

6. Firm grip

7. Elbows in

8. Stepping out with the foot closest to the ball

9. Vision techniques.

10. Serve motion

11. Continental grip for the serve

12. Analyzing a stroke

13. Balance drills

14. All drills

So I dont understand what in the world you are talking about.

I will say this that instruction is built and based on what we know. Some people have turned excellent tips in twisted and *******ed meanings which have stuck around. The poor unsuspecting coach may pick up on a "term" along with its twisted meaning and use it thinking he is helping his student. I dont think a coach is out there saying to himself "for this guy, I am going to tell him the opposite on what to do - I am going to tell him a bunch of myths".

Like John Yandell said, as out ability to slow down the stroke with video improves, so will our ability to improve our instruction.

Tennis has gone through its ups and downs. The tennis industry is fragmented and needs to come together better - this we all know. I think it will.

Tennis is a great sport and I feel if you got a gripe, gripe to the people that CAN do something about it. You might learn that your view may be a little tainted and you may have developed your own myths.
 

Leon

Rookie
Bungalo Bill said:
...The poor unsuspecting coach may pick up on a "term" along with its twisted meaning and use it thinking he is helping his student. I don't think a coach is out there saying to himself "for this guy, I am going to tell him the opposite on what to do - I am going to tell him a bunch of myths".

Of cause he wouldn't do that, but many of them just don't care much.
I use to go to the coach from the club, paid $85 (indoor). Yes, he was nice guy, and he used to tell me to drive through the ball, but he let me get away with everything else. I was happy, he is a nice guy, I have fun, seems like my game is getting better, what else would you ask.
....................
I have to tell, that I have a bad coordination, and not young either , so I never thought I'm talented for tennis, so I was thinking I'm progressing just fine.
.....................
Until I meat my current coach, in just a two month I beat most of the guys I used to think as a gods (I was 2.0, when started). Now I play with many strong 3.5-4.0 and while I loose (I play only 6 month, still in development, and need more experience), I can hang there, and actually receive a lot of compliments from them.

Now this what I call a good coach, she actually never coach before, she used to be a top ranked junior in her country, but quit tennis for volleyball. But she did what a "professional", high paid coach can't do. I'm just wondering how real coach should be, the one that does it for living, and has been doing it for years, it should be wow !!!
 

BillyIdol

Rookie
Some examples

Here is some of the examples of what is taught in some books (that is probably wrong) that I have read:

1-Using an Eastern forehand grip on the forehand volley. (tennisserver.com)
2-Using an Eastern backhand grp on the backhand volley. (tennisserver.com)
3-Using an Eastern forehand grip on the serve. (Many books)
4-I went to an "advanced" small group tennis class and was told that the instructor would "tailor" his instruction to your needs. Well, some of it was ok. But when I told the instructor that I wanted to learn a two handed backhand, his lesson was exactly 5 seconds long. He demonstrated the 2hbh twice and this was it. He said, "Just go like this". Heck, I knew that! What grip should I use? What about returns? Straight back or loop? Well, I should have been a lot more pushy, but to tell you the truth, I didn't think he knew a lot about it, and he personally played with a 1 hander, so I could tell he didn't like teaching the 2 hander. Is it a bad sign when you are actually beating your instructor?
5-I'm still not sure on this one. Do we switch grips on the volleys slightly with the Continental? Do we totally keep fh and bh volley grips EXACTLY the same (Continental)? Forget the Eastern fh and Eastern bh grips!
6-In "Tennis Mastery" David Smith says that you should keep your racket face open on the volley. This worked for me tonight! I have been told by many instructors and books that the face of the racket on volleys should be vertical. I think Smith is right on this one, the racket face needs to be open!
7-I have seen the overhead demonstrated in so many ways that I have lost count! I'm still not sure on this one!
8-On easitennis.com, I understand the type I serve (kick) with continental grip and wrist pronation. I don't really understand the type II serve using a backhand grip with forearm pronation. In Smith's book, it looks like he is doing the forearm pronation with the continental grip! Still not sure on this one!
9-I liked some of Wegner's work, and he seems to make tennis simple to learn, but I think that he is obsessed with "finding the ball" and "waiting for the ball". I think that he is right in that you should not take your racket back too early, but I do at least turn my shoulders early. I also think that Wegner's work is a little shaky on volleys, and not very specific with most grips!

Well, that is a start! I hope that someone could provide some "clarity" on these issues!

Thanks!
John
 

fleabitten

Semi-Pro
BillyIdol, You will probably enjoy a book called Inner Tennis (it is the follow-up to The Inner Game Of Tennis). The author Gallwey is a psychologist, and he has some amazing insights into the body mechanics that the mind already knows. I won't rewrite the book here, and do the author a disservice. It is interesting and helpful in my opinion.
fb
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
Sorry, I just don't think it's this simple. Confusing yes, simple no. I'm not sure you can say "wrong" or "right" when it comes to something like learning the volley grips, among many, many other points. A lot of people like my friend Dave Smith (whom I respect) are adamant about learning the continental from scratch. Personally I disagree. I don't think the grip change is hard at all and that a lot of problems on volleys attributed to grips are really the function of fundamental problems with the motion itself.
It's the same with the two-hander. There are at least 4 different variations and you can't really say one is "right." There are pluses and minues and one or the other may work for one person and another for another.
It's not surgery and there is no standard for malpractice. Personally I am glad that no one is trying to inforce "orthodoxy" the USTA or anyone else--I don't think we know enough to describe what that might be--and it might stiffle the evolution of the game. If Roger Federer had followed forehand "orthodoxy" he wouldn't have the Roger Federer forehand.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
Leon said:
Of cause he wouldn't do that, but many of them just don't care much.
I use to go to the coach from the club, paid $85 (indoor). Yes, he was nice guy, and he used to tell me to drive through the ball, but he let me get away with everything else. I was happy, he is a nice guy, I have fun, seems like my game is getting better, what else would you ask.
....................
I have to tell, that I have a bad coordination, and not young either , so I never thought I'm talented for tennis, so I was thinking I'm progressing just fine.
.....................
Until I meat my current coach, in just a two month I beat most of the guys I used to think as a gods (I was 2.0, when started). Now I play with many strong 3.5-4.0 and while I loose (I play only 6 month, still in development, and need more experience), I can hang there, and actually receive a lot of compliments from them.

Now this what I call a good coach, she actually never coach before, she used to be a top ranked junior in her country, but quit tennis for volleyball. But she did what a "professional", high paid coach can't do. I'm just wondering how real coach should be, the one that does it for living, and has been doing it for years, it should be wow !!!

Yeah and I can tell you most of the Heisman Trophey winners didnt do well in the pros. I can tell you that a lot of college graduates dont know jack or perform sub-par in their choice of careers. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, even tennis coaches may or may not be worth their salt.

But not all of them are poor. Not all of the charge too much money for the advice they give. Not all of them "dont care".

Have you ever thought that it is also the student? A student takes an hour lesson, then doesnt practice and plays on the weekend expecting to rise to the top?

I know a coach that has taught this player for several years. Player hasnt improved one bit. I asked the coach (who is a very good coach and player) why havent you helped this guy, you know so much and he still doing the same lousey habits I saw a year ago. His response? He said "I tried over and over again but the guy doesnt want my advice, he just wants a hitting partner and feels good paying me for the "status symbol" of having a coach".

I think you guys are right that there are poor coaches. I also agree that some coaches are mediocre tennis players. Unfortunately, they become the rule, they become "seemingly" the majority without anyone really looking at the numbers to see if it is so. They become the focus and people then assume "every" coach or the "majority" are poor. Trying to find a good attorney is also difficult! Trying to find a good Doctor is getting difficult. But it does not mean "all" them dont care or are poor at what they do.

I am in agreement with all of you, I am just not on the extreme that a majority are poor coaches. Instruction is instruction. There is no magic to telling someone to bend their knees. 70% of player improvement has to be on the players side not the coaches side. Also, a lot of the people who claim they arent improving are the ones who arent practicing!
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
Billy Idol, lets give you the answers now!

1-Using an Eastern forehand grip on the forehand volley. (tennisserver.com)

A. The Easterns are very good grips for volleys and many players use these grips successfully. The weakness of the continental grip is it is "more" difficult to hit down the line without repositioning the face or your body to do so. Obviously, it is not impossible but that is one of the weaknesses that a lot of people dont talk about or dont know or dont care!

The easterns position the wrist in a naturally strong and comfotable position. They put the hand and racquet face in a powerful positon to really tag volleys. They are also easy to hit crosscourt or DTL. The trouble comes in the grip switch. Many purests believe that you dont have time to switch grips at the net - like in doubles or S&V. High speed cameras with fast moving balls going side to side show clearly that there is plenty of time to switch grips. Most people hold the grip to tight when they are attempting to do so which causes problems.

Once a player learns to volley with the Easterns the vast majority dont stay there. Slowly they start migrating back towards the Continental. The medium. Sometimes they settle inbetween grips, and some settle with a continental for all volleys, some adjust the grip a little for the backhand (a ton of players in the pros do this (including Sampras) and hit a continental for the forehand, and vice versa.

My point is the Easterns ARE good volleying grips used for many different things. And yes, some like the easterns so much, they never have looked back. This is not a myth, this is a preference that falls within acceptable guidelines.

2-Using an Eastern backhand grp on the backhand volley. (tennisserver.com)

A. See above.

3-Using an Eastern forehand grip on the serve. (Many books) Now this is usually a beginner grip to get the player to become productive. The books I have read I did not see that. They all recommended the continental grip. So you might want to mention the books you saw this in.

A. As for the Eastern Forehand grip, I am not a fan at teaching this grip for three reasons:

1. As the speed of the arm picks up, more and more strain heads to the wrist. Some players (like Kevhen on this board) can get away with it he is tall and strong. Becker hit some of his serves with an Eastern forehand grip. The strin it places on the wrist is the main reason this grip is not recommended. The chance for a player to get tendonitis increases with the use of this serving grip.

2. Unless you are real tall (at least 6'4") the eastern forehand grip leaves very little net clearnace because the eastern forehand grip promotes a fast and very flat serve. Net clearance even on the serve is very important. If someone is shorter using this grip, their chances to fault in the net are very high.

3. The Eastern forehand grip promotes "waiters wrist". This is a deadly habit that is diffiucult to break once the brain gets used to firing muscles a certain way. This is one of the main reasons I avoid teaching this grip. When I move a player to a continental grip that used to use an Eastern forehand grip, there is a lot of unlearning that needs to take place. I would rather have the student struggle a little in the beginning getting used to a continental grip (ball on the string aid, ball wedged in the fence drill) then have them struggle with unlearning and then relearning something. It takes twice as long to learn with unlearning then just learning the "better" way to begin with.

So I am in agreement with you,but it is not a myth. The Eastern forehand grip is considered by many a "beginners" grip. It helps a student who does not have a good serve motion to play the game quickly.

4-I went to an "advanced" small group tennis class and was told that the instructor would "tailor" his instruction to your needs. Well, some of it was ok. But when I told the instructor that I wanted to learn a two handed backhand, his lesson was exactly 5 seconds long. He demonstrated the 2hbh twice and this was it. He said, "Just go like this". Heck, I knew that! What grip should I use? What about returns? Straight back or loop? Well, I should have been a lot more pushy, but to tell you the truth, I didn't think he knew a lot about it, and he personally played with a 1 hander, so I could tell he didn't like teaching the 2 hander. Is it a bad sign when you are actually beating your instructor?

A. Well every coach needs to start somewhere. When you said "I want to learn a twohanded backhand" that is a pretty big topic. Getting into "straight back" vs. "loop" is a bit premature if he hasnt seen you hit nor understands what you are really asking for.

If you want to know grips and things like that a "group" class may not the right setting. First of all, the coach is not thinking of just you. When he said "tailor to your needs" tailoring means he has to first take measurements!!!! He needs to see you hit, and move, and do other things before he starts "tailoring"things to your needs. He needs to take measurements not just stop everything and answer every single question you want answered without seeing how you hit in the first place.

And come on now, you expect a quality individual lesson in a group setting???

5-I'm still not sure on this one. Do we switch grips on the volleys slightly with the Continental? Do we totally keep fh and bh volley grips EXACTLY the same (Continental)? Forget the Eastern fh and Eastern bh grips!

A. Yes. You can have a pure continental, you can adjust slightly, you can have more of an eastern forehand or backhand grip and if you do leave your hand lightly on the handle for the grip change. Do what is right for you and stay within the guidelines of recommended grips.

For those that feel you can not change grips fast enough - I say hogwash.

Try to see if you can step out with either foot as you pretend your volleying and see if you can step out quicker then a grip change in either direction.

There is your answer. It is just practice!

6-In "Tennis Mastery" David Smith says that you should keep your racket face open on the volley. This worked for me tonight! I have been told by many instructors and books that the face of the racket on volleys should be vertical. I think Smith is right on this one, the racket face needs to be open!

A. Yes, the racquet face can be both vertical and slightly open. I prefer slightly open for most of my volleys but sometimes when I am closing and do not want too much underspin I will flatten the racquet face for a flat hard volley.

No one is wrong. You found something that works now improve on it.

7-I have seen the overhead demonstrated in so many ways that I have lost count! I'm still not sure on this one!

A. Turn like you are a center fielder running back to cath the ball. Keep your arm very loose. If the ball isnt too high, take it in the air using a continental grip. Dont force the racquet into the ball or you will take a chance pulling down and missing or sending the ball long or into the net.

Nice smooth stroke like your serve. If it is real high let it bounce then hit. Dont know the "other demonstrations" you have seen.

8-On easitennis.com, I understand the type I serve (kick) with continental grip and wrist pronation. I don't really understand the type II serve using a backhand grip with forearm pronation. In Smith's book, it looks like he is doing the forearm pronation with the continental grip! Still not sure on this one!

A. Pronation is going to happen naturally. Wedge a ball in a fence at your serves contact height. Get in a backhand grip and learn for yourself in slow motion what the arm needs to do in order to hit the ball. You will quickly learn it is something that happens naturally like lifting your foot to take a step and you really dont need to concentrate on pronation. Just get in the grip and learn the SWING PATH and WHERE YOU NEED TO BRUSH THE BALL TO PRODUCE THE SPIN. This will simplify things for you.

9-I liked some of Wegner's work, and he seems to make tennis simple to learn, but I think that he is obsessed with "finding the ball" and "waiting for the ball". I think that he is right in that you should not take your racket back too early, but I do at least turn my shoulders early. I also think that Wegner's work is a little shaky on volleys, and not very specific with most grips!

A. Two schools of thought on this one: I am not a fan of getting the racket back later or as the ball bounces = especially at the club level. Too many people have poor footwork and focus problems to do this consistently and keep the ball in play. You should have the racquet back before the ball bounces to improve your timing. As you get better, you will be able to sense when you need to initiate your backswing and forward swing to consistently make clean contact with the ball.

Getting the racquet back and learning to run with it back helps your body to learn to balance itself on the run. It also helps promote the grip change and shoulder rotation as soon as possible.

My preference is to prepare while the ball is in the air. Your grip change your shoulder turn and almost all of your backswing needs to be complete with all efforts readyt o move forward once the ball bounces to hit cleanly and not feel rushed.

Most pros prepare before the ball bounces. Racquet back early is a good training drill. It helps your brain to learn something automatically to free up the brain to concentrate on the ball. By doing this in practice and exaggeration you will learn a good thing.
 

ferreira

Rookie
BillyIdol said:
(...) most people (if they are motivated) can rapidly advance from 1.5 to 4.5 and beyond! Rapidly meaning in about two years or less! (...)

Here we go again!! The 4.5-in-2-years talk is getting strong on this board! Billy, with all due respect, 4.5 in 2 years will not happen. Peter Lundgren, Tony Nadal, Larri Passos, the Aussies...none of them would pull it unless they had a genious in their hands.
 

Thanatos

Semi-Pro
ferreira said:
Here we go again!! The 4.5-in-2-years talk is getting strong on this board! Billy, with all due respect, 4.5 in 2 years will not happen. Peter Lundgren, Tony Nadal, Larri Passos, the Aussies...none of them would pull it unless they had a genious in their hands.

In the last 2 years, I moved from a 3.5 to 4.0. Only 0.5, I must really be dumb.
 

papa

Hall of Fame
Although I agree with the comments, I think you'll find in item #3 that there are some who actually do "suggest" using the grip mentioned for begineers - I only checked a couple of references but they were:

"Coaching Tennis" by Chuyck Kriese pg #54
"Winning Doubles" by Stan Smith pg #68
 
F

FFTD

Guest
Bungalo Bill,
Would you please explain the instructional #6 “Firm Grip?” I am a beginner and have read someone’s post that one should use firm grip for backhand but loose grip for forehand. I am easily to lose control when I use a loose forehand grip, but don’t know which one (firm or loose) is correct. Thanks!
 

fastdunn

Legend
I liked John Yandell's Visual Tennis approach in which he described a kinda minimal
set of fundamentals for all strokes in tennis. Look at how forehand evolved over
last 20-30 years and varieties of how to hit forehand now !

Most valuable thing I found, however, with having a coach is, IMO, when they
find flaws I did not know OR fix the flaw I knew I had but could not fix no matter
how hard I tried. In fact, when they do that somwtimes, $50 per hour is a super
deal.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
FFTD said:
Bungalo Bill,
Would you please explain the instructional #6 “Firm Grip?” I am a beginner and have read someone’s post that one should use firm grip for backhand but loose grip for forehand. I am easily to lose control when I use a loose forehand grip, but don’t know which one (firm or loose) is correct. Thanks!

A loose grip does not mean the racquet head wobbles around in your hand. For volleys, I recommend softening the grip so the hands can feel the ball on the volley.

The wrist needs to be fixed and relatively firm so that it can withstand the impact. If you tighten the grip too much, many players have a tendency to turn up their wrists which cause numerous errors. A looser grip allows the hand not to interfere with the wrist position. I hold the racquet on both sides with a softer grip but firm enough so the racquet stays in place. Hope that helps.
 

Mahboob Khan

Hall of Fame
I do agree some ex-davis cup players who do not believe in any coach education, start coaching and teach the way they played some 40+ years ago! They teach close stances (cross over steps), continental grips for ground strokes, low backswing forehands, etc. Instead of going to good educated coaches, players tend to go to ex-players and end up complaining later on.

However, there are good instructional systems also. You ought to do some research on the coach before you commit yourself to take lessons.

The internet is loaded with great instructions. Here are some websites:

www.procomparetennis.net
www.tennisplayer.net
www.tennisgeometrics.com
www.ptrtennis.org
www.itftennis.com
www.itftennis.com/coaching
www.itftennis.com/juniors
www.tennisone.com

There is more than correct information one will ever need. If you do not like the instructions, just view the video clips and hitting sequencings of the pro players. Players learn by watching!

I will still like to see as to what you perceive to be myths, lies, and misinformation!
 

BillyIdol

Rookie
Okay! Okay! I am prepared to rename the post "Preferences, Variations with Guidelines, and Try It and If It Works For You, Keep It!" I think that I got obsessed with Smith's "Advanced Foundation" and how you shouldn't learn beginner's form and then advanced form. Just start off with advanced form. I have always thought that the eastern volleys grips work for me, and feel stronger and more supportive, but I don't think that I was turning my body sideways on volleys! I have always thought that there is enough time to switch grips! If you can change grips on a 105 mph serve, you can probably do the same for volleys! I have been doing my slice backhand with an eastern grip the is even a bit more closed than my one handed topspin! Smith says that I should switch to the Continental, but my slice is already pretty good! I am going to try it! I have always been finishing my forehand (one handed) around my side (a la Federer) even before I saw Federer, and my fh is very good! I am not going to change it to over the shoulder! I think that Smith's point is that yes, the pros hit the ball in many different ways, but if you want to hit the ball in a skilled way, you must get the strings to contact the ball in a very specific way. In another way, the pros hit all the same. The way you get the strings there is you individuality or style (minor) (back swing differences). The way you should get the strings to contact the ball is the same (major). Just work on the "major" things, and let the minor (style/individuality) take care of itself.

John
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
BillyIdol said:
Okay! Okay! I am prepared to rename the post "Preferences, Variations with Guidelines, and Try It and If It Works For You, Keep It!"

Good and thanks!

I think that I got obsessed with Smith's "Advanced Foundation" and how you shouldn't learn beginner's form and then advanced form. Just start off with advanced form.
Nothing wrong with this as long as you see growth. Sometimes we need babby steps to get to advanced levels. Make sure as you learn new strokes the ball feed is slow!

I have always thought that the eastern volleys grips work for me, and feel stronger and more supportive, but I don't think that I was turning my body sideways on volleys! I have always thought that there is enough time to switch grips! If you can change grips on a 105 mph serve, you can probably do the same for volleys!

Yes the easterns are good volley grips and so is the continental. find what you like to do and stick with it. One day, you will find yourself migrating back to a compremised position. But you never know!

I have been doing my slice backhand with an eastern grip the is even a bit more closed than my one handed topspin! Smith says that I should switch to the Continental, but my slice is already pretty good! I am going to try it!
I would stick with what you have. I use a an inbetween continental/full eastern backhand grip for my slice and love it! You are within guidelines. Many players use the Eastern backhand grip for the slice.

I have always been finishing my forehand (one handed) around my side (a la Federer) even before I saw Federer, and my fh is very good! I am not going to change it to over the shoulder! I think that Smith's point is that yes, the pros hit the ball in many different ways, but if you want to hit the ball in a skilled way, you must get the strings to contact the ball in a very specific way. In another way, the pros hit all the same. The way you get the strings there is you individuality or style (minor) (back swing differences). The way you should get the strings to contact the ball is the same (major). Just work on the "major" things, and let the minor (style/individuality) take care of itself.

That is fine to finish off to the side. It is also important to finish high. When players finish off to the side, they have a tendency to pull off the swig path causing numerous errors. They do not concentrate hard enough on going through the ball and then rapping around. This is why many coaches ask you to finish out towards the target. The body will fill in the blanks and the finish will happen. But it is the critical six inches before and after the shot that really matter.

Anyway, good job sounds like you are on target.
 

papa

Hall of Fame
fastdunn said:
I liked John Yandell's Visual Tennis approach in which he described a kinda minimal
set of fundamentals for all strokes in tennis. Look at how forehand evolved over
last 20-30 years and varieties of how to hit forehand now !

Most valuable thing I found, however, with having a coach is, IMO, when they
find flaws I did not know OR fix the flaw I knew I had but could not fix no matter
how hard I tried. In fact, when they do that somwtimes, $50 per hour is a super
deal.

Yeah, things have changed a little but "Visual Tennis" is still, and will probably always be, an excellent book.
 

papa

Hall of Fame
Mahboob Khan said:
I do agree some ex-davis cup players who do not believe in any coach education, start coaching and teach the way they played some 40+ years ago! They teach close stances (cross over steps), continental grips for ground strokes, low backswing forehands, etc. Instead of going to good educated coaches, players tend to go to ex-players and end up complaining later on.

However, there are good instructional systems also. You ought to do some research on the coach before you commit yourself to take lessons.

The internet is loaded with great instructions. Here are some websites:

Yes, them and many others although I would agree with BB that there are many dedicated and knowledgeable coaches. However, there are many that just seem to be going through the motions and I don't think they remain actively involved for many years - they come and go.
 

Leon

Rookie
Bungalo Bill said:
Yeah and I can tell you most of the Heisman Trophey winners didnt do well in the pros. I can tell you that a lot of college graduates dont know jack or perform sub-par in their choice of careers. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, even tennis coaches may or may not be worth their salt.

But not all of them are poor. Not all of the charge too much money for the advice they give. Not all of them "dont care".

Have you ever thought that it is also the student? A student takes an hour lesson, then doesnt practice and plays on the weekend expecting to rise to the top?

I know a coach that has taught this player for several years. Player hasnt improved one bit. I asked the coach (who is a very good coach and player) why havent you helped this guy, you know so much and he still doing the same lousey habits I saw a year ago. His response? He said "I tried over and over again but the guy doesnt want my advice, he just wants a hitting partner and feels good paying me for the "status symbol" of having a coach".

I think you guys are right that there are poor coaches. I also agree that some coaches are mediocre tennis players. Unfortunately, they become the rule, they become "seemingly" the majority without anyone really looking at the numbers to see if it is so. They become the focus and people then assume "every" coach or the "majority" are poor. Trying to find a good attorney is also difficult! Trying to find a good Doctor is getting difficult. But it does not mean "all" them dont care or are poor at what they do.

I am in agreement with all of you, I am just not on the extreme that a majority are poor coaches. Instruction is instruction. There is no magic to telling someone to bend their knees. 70% of player improvement has to be on the players side not the coaches side. Also, a lot of the people who claim they arent improving are the ones who aren't practicing!

That's all good, but It makes me scared, how would I know who is really good coach? I don't want to try it out, to pay up front, just to find out it wasn't worth the money. My coach, goes home (Serbia) for summer, and I'm looking for someone really really good, since I want someone else (third opinion) to evaluate my game, and tell me where I am. How can I validate that he/she is the right person for the job, any advice would be highly appreciated.

May be you know someone really good in CT, best would be around Trumbull, Bridgeport area, but I don't mind to drive, if it really worth it. I need evaluation lesson. Thank you.
 

Leon

Rookie
Bungalo Bill said:
Getting the racquet back and learning to run with it back helps your body to learn to balance itself on the run.

I'm not sure if it's a right thread to ask, but since you are talking about it, I would like to ask a question.
So I should I run with the racquet back?
Here is my problem: I changed the forehand, so now I can hit the ball on the raise, so I eventually moved closer to the base line (used to stay a step behind it), now I'm consistently late on my backhand (messed up the timing). So is it OK, if I prepare the back swing as I run? Sort of run with the racquet back? I have one handed?
Is it OK to stay right behind the baseline, or should I move half a step back.
I can hit a onehanded on the fall, 95% of the time. What should I do , since when I stand close I eventually have to hit a high ball on the back hand :(
Please help
 

Dopke

Semi-Pro
ferreira said:
Here we go again!! The 4.5-in-2-years talk is getting strong on this board! Billy, with all due respect, 4.5 in 2 years will not happen. Peter Lundgren, Tony Nadal, Larri Passos, the Aussies...none of them would pull it unless they had a genious in their hands.

I didn't do 4.5 in two years, but I did from basically a 2.5 to a 4.0 in 2 years. All it takes is lessons weekly and taking what you learned in lessons each week and putting them into action. My cousin who started the same time as me is on the brink of becoming a solid 4.5 player.
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
I think Ed is largely correct. The USPTA is lame when it comes to *uniformly* certifying instructors. The Association is not consistent in this.

30 years ago I held USPTA Pros in very low esteem. Then I had one USPTA Pro who influenced me to raise my game a considerable amount. And (Billy, please note) he was short, dumpy, walked and ran like a duck and ... once I figured out how to counter his style (junk ball) I usually took every set by breaking him more than once. He -- more than any other Pro who worked with me -- helped me take my game to a level I did not know I could reach. Yes, you can learn from an instructor who you can beat.

There are many factors which come into play: The style/personality of the Instructor ... the style/personality of the student ... the ability of the instructor ... the willingness of the student to really COMMIT to what the Instructor is advising ... etc. (I've lightened up a lot on USPTA Pros. But I still believe the USPTA, itself, is ... uncoordinated.)

Lastly, you shouldn't expect Private Lesson progress, if all you are willing to invest in yourself is Group Rates.

- KK
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
Leon said:
I'm not sure if it's a right thread to ask, but since you are talking about it, I would like to ask a question.
So I should I run with the racquet back?
Here is my problem: I changed the forehand, so now I can hit the ball on the raise, so I eventually moved closer to the base line (used to stay a step behind it), now I'm consistently late on my backhand (messed up the timing). So is it OK, if I prepare the back swing as I run? Sort of run with the racquet back? I have one handed?
Is it OK to stay right behind the baseline, or should I move half a step back.
I can hit a onehanded on the fall, 95% of the time. What should I do , since when I stand close I eventually have to hit a high ball on the back hand :(
Please help

No, you should run and use your movement to facilitate good balance, footwork, and speed to get set. I use the racquet back in a drill to enphasize and train the brain to get the racquet back early. Running with the racquet back is REAL early and I use for training purposes only.

In real play you need to move naturally and hopefully your motor movement will automatically adjust early or earlier then before as it sees the ball coming to your side. It is a mental trigger. However, with the speed of the ball coming over the net, early is early.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
Kaptain Karl said:
I think Ed is largely correct. The USTA is lame when it comes to *uniformly* certifying instructors. The Association is not consistent in this.

30 years ago I held USTA Pros in very low esteem. Then I had one USTA Pro who influenced me to raise my game a considerable amount. And (Billy, please note) he was short, dumpy, walked and ran like a duck and ... once I figured out how to counter his style (junk ball) I usually took every set by breaking him more than once. He -- more than any other Pro who worked with me -- helped me take my game to a level I did not know I could reach. Yes, you can learn from an instructor who you can beat.

There are many factors which come into play: The style/personality of the Instructor ... the style/personality of the student ... the ability of the instructor ... the willingness of the student to really COMMIT to what the Instructor is advising ... etc. (I've lightened up a lot on USTA Pros. But I still believe the USTA, itself, is ... uncoordinated.)

Lastly, you shouldn't expect Private Lesson progress, if all you are willing to invest in yourself is Group Rates.

- KK

Actually Karl it is USPTA not USTA. I find most people that complain and think they are "better" then the pro, often are either afraid to take the test or cant pass the test! Sort of the "arm chair" quarterback syndrome.

It never fails to hear people down play the pro, measuring themselves against someone who puts themselves on the line.

If our pros are so bad and "we" are so good, then there should be one damn good market out there for all of us. Lets go make some money and teach some real tennis! Lets write a letter to the USPTA and tell them what we think.

We will get this sport going in no time. What are we thinkin! LOL
 

paulfreda

Hall of Fame
You know learning/improving quickly via lessons with a coach is NOT cheap. What school would you attend and expect to progress that only meets once a week ?? You would need attention of an expert at least 3 times a week to progress rapidly. At US rates only once a week, that would be ($60-75/hr x 4 = $240-300 per month). Not a lot of people are willing or can afford to pay even this. So how can we expect a pro to be able to make a 2.5 a 4.5 in even 3-4 years. Not likely to be possible.

When I was a kid playing golf, our local pro's daughter married a baseball player. Ben went out with him from day one and in 6 months, Mike was a near scratch player. He quickly became a pro himself and now teaches (last I checked) in Florida. Point is, if you can get a good pro to watch you consistenly and often AND you have talent, you can get very good very fast. Tennis or golf. But few have a father-in-law available for free lessons. Just the facts of life.
 

Ryoma

Rookie
Pros are professionals. It just means they play/teach tennis for a living. It doesn't necessarily mean they can play at a higher level than people who are not playing/teaching tennis for a living. I seldom see the so-called pros correct the stroke mechanism of their students. Since it's really unintuitive. If they help their students learn faster, they earn less.

I have never seen a coach that can perform a decent serve and modern forehand. Most of them play old style and stick to it. I watched a guy practised with his coach. The student has a strong western forehand while the coach played with no top spin. The coach always ask the student to keep the ball in and hit softer. The student basically ignore him. I think the coach just doesn't get it. What the student need is MORE top spin, not less. What top spin does is it can let you hit 100mph forehand and still keep it in. What would you practise for? 100mph topspin forehand or 50 mph flat forehand? The student want the 100mph topspin forehand, that's what he is practising for. Just why would anyone want to practise to be a pusher?
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
Bungalo Bill said:
Actually Karl it is USPTA not USTA.
Okay. P ... P ... P!

I've been talking with the local USTA folks a lot the last several weeks. I've got them "on the brain."

Pros are certified by the USPTA. Thanks, BB.

I find most people that complain and think they are "better" then the pro, often are either afraid to take the test or cant pass the test! Sort of the "arm chair" quarterback syndrome.
Since you are quoting me and saying this, I get the impression you think I *still* am antagonistic to USPTA Pros. Not so.

Back in NY, when I was 19, my thinking was more closed-minded. I thought, "How can he help me? I can beat him easily!" Then I met this goofy looking, duck-walking guy and (thankfully) for some reason I gave him a try.

It never fails to hear people down play the pro, measuring themselves against someone who puts themselves on the line.
Okay, BB. If there is one "knock" I have against you, it's that you are such an unquestioning DEFENDER of all Pros. You (seem to) have a bit of a "blind spot" (Or is it denial?) when it comes to admitting that, indeed, we do have some real *duds* in the USPTA.

(My beef with a lot of professional organizations -- which "claim" to police themselves -- is they don't weed out the bums. Lawyers, medical doctors, dentists, chiropractors, psychologists, school teachers and USPTA Pros ... it's too bad.)

- KK
 

ferreira

Rookie
Thanatos said:
In the last 2 years, I moved from a 3.5 to 4.0. Only 0.5, I must really be dumb.
Well, that makes two of us!! And since it will likely take another 3 to 4 to move to a solid 4.5, now is when we REALLY begin to feel stupid. :))
 

ferreira

Rookie
Dopke said:
I didn't do 4.5 in two years, but I did from basically a 2.5 to a 4.0 in 2 years. All it takes is lessons weekly and taking what you learned in lessons each week and putting them into action. My cousin who started the same time as me is on the brink of becoming a solid 4.5 player.

Solid 4.5 in 2 years with WEEKLY lessons!? Now we're talking about a genius! Ans you almost made it as well. Maybe the genius is the coach :). Honestly and respectfully, I do not believe it.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
Kaptain Karl said:
Okay, BB. If there is one "knock" I have against you, it's that you are such an unquestioning DEFENDER of all Pros. You (seem to) have a bit of a "blind spot" (Or is it denial?) when it comes to admitting that, indeed, we do have some real *duds* in the USPTA.

(My beef with a lot of professional organizations -- which "claim" to police themselves -- is they don't weed out the bums. Lawyers, medical doctors, dentists, chiropractors, psychologists, school teachers and USPTA Pros ... it's too bad.)

- KK

Well Karl you are incorrect again. I have mentioned several times that there are pros that have skated through the system. You might want to research and read the posts.

But in my experience and in my section of the woods, there are far more good pros then bad ones. I get the impression you think there are far more bad pros then good ones. That is the difference between us.

Teaching pros fall into the "curve" like any other profession. You have yoru excellent ones that are not the majority, the average which are the majority, and the poor ones which also are not the majority. Focusing on the minority is what I am NOT about.

There are plenty of average pros that can help a student learn and grow in tennis to a certain point before the student needs to breakoff and either continue on his own or find a pro that can help him get to another level.

The key words in the last sentence is "HELP THEM GET TO ANOTHER LEVEL." I did not say "MAKE THEM GET TO ANOTHER LEVEL."

Most of the growth in a player has to come from the heart and determination of the player not the coach or pro. The first thing I ask a student when they complain about their pro is:

1. How often do you practice?

2. What part of the instruction is giving you difficulty?

3. What questions are you asking and/or what questions have you not asked?

4. What parts of the instruction did you like?

5. What parts of the instruction did you not like?

Karl, if you see a weakness in the USPTA (which their are many) why dont you go down and take the test, pass it, and begin changing the perspective on things. I think that would a hell of a lot more productive - then picking apart things and pointing the finger because of a few bad apples.

Karl, we agree on a lot of things. I do see what your saying but it is important we keep things in perspective.
 
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