No majors in 6 years but #1 in the world

BjornBorg

Banned
That's a joke. Davenport does not deserve number one. When she last won a major Bill Clinton still had a year left in his Presidency.

She chokes in slam matches all the time and is not worthy of number one. 2005 was yet another example of her failing to win the big one. I'm sick of seeing her win all these events that pale in comparison to Majors. She's only 19 slams behind Steffi!!!!!
 

Coria

Banned
Clijsters hands down. She won the US OPEN in dominating style and she has won the majority of events she's been in.
 

Coria

Banned
Clijsters hands down. She won the US OPEN in dominating style and she has won the majority of events she's been in. She has won seven events. She's the better player.
 

tennissavy

Hall of Fame
Currently, Davenport is ranked #3 in the world. Please see the wta tour website. Sharapova is #1, Clijsters is #2.
 

Happyneige

New User
BjornBorg said:
That's a joke. Davenport does not deserve number one. When she last won a major Bill Clinton still had a year left in his Presidency.

She chokes in slam matches all the time and is not worthy of number one. 2005 was yet another example of her failing to win the big one. I'm sick of seeing her win all these events that pale in comparison to Majors. She's only 19 slams behind Steffi!!!!!
With no one dominant player on the tour right now, the point system is going to have to honor players who are more consistent with non-slam events. Just look at the past 2 years. We have 7 different champions within the past 8 slams. (With Justine won twice.) Most of these champions have not performed all that well elsewhere. (Except Clijsters and to a much lesser extent, Sharapova.) Venus and Serena missed most of the year's play. Myskina continues to struggle on tour after her Roland Garros win. And don't get me started on Kuznetsova. (What a let-down!)

I'd like to see consistency being awarded too. Davenport has been competitive and consistent over the past 2 years. She has won more tournaments this year than the current no.1, Sharapova. Enduring a 2-week tournament and managing to get to the finals in 2 of the majors is not something to be ignored. Davenport deserved to be no.1 with all the work she did. Applying the same 'slam standards', what should be more ridiculous is Sharapova getting to be number one without winning ANYTHING since June. She didn't even get to the finals of any slam this year. Why doesn't this bother you, BjornBorg???
 

Deuce

Banned
When will people learn that "#1 player" does not mean the BEST PLAYER RIGHT NOW. Of course, the best player right now and the #1 player could be one and the same. But it also could not.

The BEST PLAYER RIGHT NOW changes every hour - perhaps even more often than that.
 

bcaz

Professional
So who's better? Make your case. Personally, I like what Clijsters has done this year in spite of injury, and the Williamses, Sharapova, et. al. are very good players, but Lindsey earns her ranking points. Mauresmo may be better but she doesn't beat her often enough, does she? And JHH is obviously very good, and if she wins often enough, she will be #1 again. Do it on the court.
 
Coria said:
Clijsters hands down. She won the US OPEN in dominating style and she has won the majority of events she's been in. She has won seven events. She's the better player.

I am pulling for clijsters to be #1. i too, think the wta ranking system is ridiculous - maybe yet another year with a slamless year end #1
 

MonkeyPox

Semi-Pro
After this week Lindsay will be #1 again since Maria isn't defending her points and Kim isn't playing. And Lindsay certainly deserves it more than Maria. I'd say Kim is the best player now, but Lindsay has been the most consistent performer this year and therefore is a legitimate #1. Good for her to be out there busting her butt at 30 years old and looking better than she ever has in her life.
 

BjornBorg

Banned
Good for her to be out there busting her butt at 30 years old and looking better than she ever has in her life.[/QUOTE]

Except when everything is on the line in a grand slam quarter-final, semi-final or final. And she's only 29.
 

hummer23

Hall of Fame
the rankings are purely points based, do you think majors should be even more heavily weighted? i think they carry enoughweight in the rankings, and the winners are automatically through to the year end championships anyway.
 

timmyboy

Professional
how the heck is sharapova no 1? she hasn't won a big title in soooo long! clijsters should dominate, for a while at least.
 

LendlFan

Semi-Pro
Deuce said:
When will people learn that "#1 player" does not mean the BEST PLAYER RIGHT NOW. Of course, the best player right now and the #1 player could be one and the same. But it also could not.

The BEST PLAYER RIGHT NOW changes every hour - perhaps even more often than that.

I sure hope this doesn't get to be a habit but I find myself agreeing with you once again.
#1 means very little in terms of people that understand the game. For the Players today, they don't view the #1 Ranking with the same reverence that it held with Evert- Navratilova - Graf - Seles

Those were the good ol days when the #1 walked on the court and their opponents trembled at the thought of possibly getting them mad. Now its' only real purpose is Sponsorships and Draw position. The bragging rights are kinda out the window with the exception of (the guy on the ATP side) who can clearly walk tall.
 
It's a couple of questions down, but another reason why Lindsay Davenport doesn't suck:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/jon_wertheim/10/19/mailbag/2.html

She may not be the highest achiever in tennis, and she may never win that elusive fourth grand slam, but Davenport has never once been accused of doping, has never represented our sport with less class than it deserves and has always committed herself to being better today than she was yesterday. I think in today's climate, that deserves some kudos.
-- Jon, Seattle

Absolutely. And this is a good time to reiterate a point that I don't think gets made nearly enough: From a morality/social-conduct standpoint, what's the worst thing you say about contemporary tennis players? Argentines fail tests for performance-enhancing drugs with alarming frequency? Players pull out of events under dubious circumstances? Players are ungracious in defeat or pump their fists at inopportune times?

From the Minnesota Vikings booze cruise to the BALCO mess to Kobe Bryant to the highly regarded boxer I recently interviewed who casually mentioned beating his pregnant ex-wife to a pulp, in today's climate, tennis is filled with parag0ns of virtue.
 

LendlFan

Semi-Pro
kajonie said:
It's a couple of questions down, but another reason why Lindsay Davenport doesn't suck:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/jon_wertheim/10/19/mailbag/2.html

She may not be the highest achiever in tennis, and she may never win that elusive fourth grand slam, but Davenport has never once been accused of doping, has never represented our sport with less class than it deserves and has always committed herself to being better today than she was yesterday. I think in today's climate, that deserves some kudos.
-- Jon, Seattle

Absolutely. And this is a good time to reiterate a point that I don't think gets made nearly enough: From a morality/social-conduct standpoint, what's the worst thing you say about contemporary tennis players? Argentines fail tests for performance-enhancing drugs with alarming frequency? Players pull out of events under dubious circumstances? Players are ungracious in defeat or pump their fists at inopportune times?

From the Minnesota Vikings booze cruise to the BALCO mess to Kobe Bryant to the highly regarded boxer I recently interviewed who casually mentioned beating his pregnant ex-wife to a pulp, in today's climate, tennis is filled with parag0ns of virtue.

Ok but where's your point regarding Davenport's current ranking? This girl isn't saving the World out there, she's only hitting a tennis ball and as of late, not necessarily better than everybody else.
 
Sorry dude, I had no point concerning her current ranking. However,in the true spirit of laziness, I will again refer you to what Jon Wertheim has to say on the topic:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/jon_wertheim/10/12/mailbag/index.html

Lindsay Davenport just won her 50th career title. This is an impressive feat, but it also contrasts to her low number of Grand Slams. Everyone seems to characterize her as an overachiever, which seems surprising to me when you remember that she hasn't won a major in six years. Don't get me wrong, I like Lindsay and often times I root for her to win. But let's call a spade a spade. Anyone who wins that many tournaments and so few Slams is a chronic underachiever.
-- Jay Lassiter, Philadelphia

Trying to give some context to Davenport's career is a useful exercise that helps us prioritize what it is we look for in a top player. If our criteria are heavily weighted toward Slams, Davenport is certainly on the board -- three, all of them at different events, is nothing to sneeze at. But it places her well below Venus and Serena Williams, Martina Hingis and even Justine Henin-Hardenne. (In Tennis Magazine's "40 Greatest Players" series, Davenport is seeded behind each of the aforementioned, save JHH.) As you note, 50 career titles is impressive. But the percentages of Slams won -- a mere six, if my math is right -- stacks up poorly with most other top players.

On the other hand, if your criteria for greatness includes things like consistency, week-in and week-out excellence, fitness and overall professionalism, Davenport rates much higher. Empirically, 50 titles speaks for itself. But consider that they were won over the course of a decade, all over the world, on variety of surfaces, against all manner of foe, and it becomes still more impressive. At a time when players routinely bail on events for the most dubious reasons, when they retire in their early 20s and often succumb to the grind of the job, Davenport's sustained excellence is really to be commended. To what extent this compensates for such a low number of majors -- and we should point out, that Davenport openly acknowledges this low ratio -- is open to debate. My sense is that she certainly rates above Hingis. I have a harder time ranking Davenport above the Williams sisters, Serena in particular.

Incidentally, I think the "overachiever" label applies much more to her initial prospects as a pro than to her record in finals. One glimpse of Davenport in action and it's clear that she is not the most athletically gifted or naturally graceful player. As a junior, she didn't get one-10th the hype as her peer, Jennifer Capriati. If you had said 10 years ago that Davenport would win 50 titles, three majors and enjoy lengthy stays at No. 1, people would have chased after you with butterfly nets. In the sense that she's had such an expectedly outstanding career, it's easy to see her as an overachiever.
 

LendlFan

Semi-Pro
kajonie said:
Sorry dude, I had no point concerning her current ranking. However,in the true spirit of laziness, I will again refer you to what Jon Wertheim has to say on the topic:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/jon_wertheim/10/12/mailbag/index.html

Lindsay Davenport just won her 50th career title. This is an impressive feat, but it also contrasts to her low number of Grand Slams. Everyone seems to characterize her as an overachiever, which seems surprising to me when you remember that she hasn't won a major in six years. Don't get me wrong, I like Lindsay and often times I root for her to win. But let's call a spade a spade. Anyone who wins that many tournaments and so few Slams is a chronic underachiever.
-- Jay Lassiter, Philadelphia

Trying to give some context to Davenport's career is a useful exercise that helps us prioritize what it is we look for in a top player. If our criteria are heavily weighted toward Slams, Davenport is certainly on the board -- three, all of them at different events, is nothing to sneeze at. But it places her well below Venus and Serena Williams, Martina Hingis and even Justine Henin-Hardenne. (In Tennis Magazine's "40 Greatest Players" series, Davenport is seeded behind each of the aforementioned, save JHH.) As you note, 50 career titles is impressive. But the percentages of Slams won -- a mere six, if my math is right -- stacks up poorly with most other top players.

On the other hand, if your criteria for greatness includes things like consistency, week-in and week-out excellence, fitness and overall professionalism, Davenport rates much higher. Empirically, 50 titles speaks for itself. But consider that they were won over the course of a decade, all over the world, on variety of surfaces, against all manner of foe, and it becomes still more impressive. At a time when players routinely bail on events for the most dubious reasons, when they retire in their early 20s and often succumb to the grind of the job, Davenport's sustained excellence is really to be commended. To what extent this compensates for such a low number of majors -- and we should point out, that Davenport openly acknowledges this low ratio -- is open to debate. My sense is that she certainly rates above Hingis. I have a harder time ranking Davenport above the Williams sisters, Serena in particular.

Incidentally, I think the "overachiever" label applies much more to her initial prospects as a pro than to her record in finals. One glimpse of Davenport in action and it's clear that she is not the most athletically gifted or naturally graceful player. As a junior, she didn't get one-10th the hype as her peer, Jennifer Capriati. If you had said 10 years ago that Davenport would win 50 titles, three majors and enjoy lengthy stays at No. 1, people would have chased after you with butterfly nets. In the sense that she's had such an expectedly outstanding career, it's easy to see her as an overachiever.

Those are good points you make and I remember her debut and thinking how chubby this girl was and then for a short spell, she got even chubbyer (sp) and she's very tall. I'm 6' even and I met her some years back at a tourney and asked her for her autograph. I was looking up at her ... gotta give it to her though she does have nice legs. I'm actually impressed at how she thinned herself down and like you say, continued to be competitive at a top level.

Heck I'm really not as critical about her as others on the tour. When she beat my fav Steffi on Centre Court Wimbledon, I found a new level of respect for her game. To beat Steffi Graf at Wimbledon is no easy task.
She's one of the Female Players that I pick to be able to hit as hard as the men when her feet are planted. And her BH is very very good so with all the weapons that she obviously has, it's most likely her movement that keeps her in the box.

But when Lindsay starts to spray balls all over the place, she doesn't have the ability to pull herself together. I've watched her beat herself on several occassions.
 

Coria

Banned
Lindsay has folded so many times in big slam matches. Either she blows a big lead, doesn't have a fighting spirit, slouches her shoulders, rushes, sulks or fails to come up with the clutch shot. I've been watching her do it so many times I've lost count. She used to choke before she finally won her first major in '98 and then after the 18 month stretch where she won three, she's choked in AT LEAST 10 slam matches in the 22 or so she's played since.

3 slams out of 50 titles won is perhaps the WORST slam title win to non-slam title win in the history of tennis for a multiple slam winner. Let's call a spade a spade. Totally agree with Jay Lassiter.
 

Coria

Banned
Guys, 1(Lindsay came up so small in the 2001 semi with Capriati. She played poorly, getting clocked by a player she had been beating.

2)She choked away a big second set lead to Venus in 2000 Wimby semi. 3)Lost again to Venus in 2000 Open final. Had chances to win both sets and performed poorly in trying to defend her title. 4)Lost to Venus 6-1 in the third set of 2003 Wimby Quarterfinal. There was no fight and she went down lamely. 5)Also lost to Venus 6-1 in third set of 2001 Wimby quarterfinal.
She blew this year's Wimbledon final. Yes, Venus played well but Lindsay blew how many match points???

6)After destroying Serena in second set of '00 Aussi semi, she can't sustain momentum, coughs up early third set lead and loses. 7)After destroying Serena in first set of 2005 Aussi final, lets her back in match and completely psychologically falls apart losing 12 of next 15 games to HURTING and FAT Serena. 8)Also choked to Serena in 2001 US OPEN QF, blowing two serve chances to close out match.

9) Blows match to Sharapova in 2004 Wimby semi after easily winning first set and having lead in second set. Chokes in tiebreaker (I watched it). Then after she loses, she FALLS APART and stops fighting, going down meekly 6-1.

10) Blows so many chances to close out QF match against Demenieva in this year's US OPEN. Serves several times for match and can't close deal.

11) Blows NUMEROUS chances to close out match against Henin-Hardenne in 2003 Aussi QF, losing 9-7 in the third.

12) Chokes big-time to Mauresmo in '99 Aussie Semifinal, losing 7-5 in third set after winning the first and being up in both second and third sets to inferior opponent.

13) In '97 French Round of 16, blows 7-5, 4-1 lead to Majoli and gets killed ini third set.

14) Heavily favored Lindsay completely falls apart and loses to Natalie Tauziat in US Open QF in straight sets.

15) Gets destroyed by Henin in Open semi in 2003--terrible performance.

16) Gets killed by Pierce in Quarterfinal of 2005 French (the elusive major she wanted so badly and performed so poorly)

17) Comes up lame against Martinez in '98 Wimby semi, showing no fight in third set.

There's some examples guys.
 
Coria said:
Guys, 1(Lindsay came up so small in the 2001 semi with Capriati. She played poorly, getting clocked by a player she had been beating.

2)She choked away a big second set lead to Venus in 2000 Wimby semi. 3)Lost again to Venus in 2000 Open final. Had chances to win both sets and performed poorly in trying to defend her title. 4)Lost to Venus 6-1 in the third set of 2003 Wimby Quarterfinal. There was no fight and she went down lamely. 5)Also lost to Venus 6-1 in third set of 2001 Wimby quarterfinal.
She blew this year's Wimbledon final. Yes, Venus played well but Lindsay blew how many match points???

6)After destroying Serena in second set of '00 Aussi semi, she can't sustain momentum, coughs up early third set lead and loses. 7)After destroying Serena in first set of 2005 Aussi final, lets her back in match and completely psychologically falls apart losing 12 of next 15 games to HURTING and FAT Serena. 8)Also choked to Serena in 2001 US OPEN QF, blowing two serve chances to close out match.

9) Blows match to Sharapova in 2004 Wimby semi after easily winning first set and having lead in second set. Chokes in tiebreaker (I watched it). Then after she loses, she FALLS APART and stops fighting, going down meekly 6-1.

10) Blows so many chances to close out QF match against Demenieva in this year's US OPEN. Serves several times for match and can't close deal.

11) Blows NUMEROUS chances to close out match against Henin-Hardenne in 2003 Aussi QF, losing 9-7 in the third.

12) Chokes big-time to Mauresmo in '99 Aussie Semifinal, losing 7-5 in third set after winning the first and being up in both second and third sets to inferior opponent.

13) In '97 French Round of 16, blows 7-5, 4-1 lead to Majoli and gets killed ini third set.

14) Heavily favored Lindsay completely falls apart and loses to Natalie Tauziat in US Open QF in straight sets.

15) Gets destroyed by Henin in Open semi in 2003--terrible performance.

16) Gets killed by Pierce in Quarterfinal of 2005 French (the elusive major she wanted so badly and performed so poorly)

17) Comes up lame against Martinez in '98 Wimby semi, showing no fight in third set.

There's some examples guys.

As much as I like and respect Lindsey, I have to agree with you a little. just this past year in the australian open finals, she creamed serena in the first set was running away with the second set when, she lost one really hotly contested game with many dueces, and it was all serena after then.
 
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