One handed backhand "slot"

[Shroud]

For my 1hbh, my arm is never striaght. I know this because, my arm cannot striaghten. I have a decent enough rec 1hbh, so gotta think it ain't required.

Yeah i thought your bh was good. Fwiw i played frisbee a ton as a kid so the bend is normal. And fwiw with my stiff racquet and stiff arm breaking tension and kevlar strings if the elbow lead was a problem my arm would be the first to say so…

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yeah i thought your bh was good. Fwiw i played frisbee a ton as a kid so the bend is normal. And fwiw with my stiff racquet and stiff arm breaking tension and kevlar strings if the elbow lead was a problem my arm would be the first to say so…

That Kevlar is afraid of you

 

[Chas Tennis]

Fed

Federer has a high level one hand backhand technique.

Can you find another ATP player with a bent elbow?

I'll match you plus the rest of the members finding bent elbow 1HBHs. Google lists ATP players with one hand backhands.

I'll find the straight elbow 1HBHs.

Straight elbow -
1) Wawrinka
2) Gasquet

 

[RVT]

Fed

From the opposite hand of release of the racket until striking the ball, Fed's arm articulation is a fraction of what the OP is demonstrating--about 20 degrees extension (almost all of which occurs right after the racket release) vs. articulating 90 degrees at the elbow. Again, literally no top level player hits a 1HB in this manner.

Overall, I think the important stuff looks good on the OP's tape, namely the footwork. I think he'd be well-served long-term to drastically reduce elbow flexion during the swing to a minimum, like every player hitting a high level 1HB.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Federer has a high level one hand backhand technique.

Can you find another ATP player with a bent elbow?

I'll match you plus the rest of the members finding bent elbow 1HBHs. Google lists ATP players with one hand backhands.

I'll find the straight elbow 1HBHs.

Straight elbow -
1) Wawrinka
2) Gasquet

One of the straight bros:

 

[Shroud]

From the opposite hand of release of the racket until striking the ball, Fed's arm articulation is a fraction of what the OP is demonstrating--about 20 degrees extension (almost all of which occurs right after the racket release) vs. articulating 90 degrees at the elbow. Again, literally no top level player hits a 1HB in this manner.

Overall, I think the important stuff looks good on the OP's tape, namely the footwork. I think he'd be well-served long-term to drastically reduce elbow flexion during the swing to a minimum, like every player hitting a high level 1HB.

You said “I think there's a reason that exactly zero percent of high level players with one handed backhands lead with their elbow in front of the shoulder during the swing”

i said FED and now you are talking about the OP.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yeah i thought your bh was good. Fwiw i played frisbee a ton as a kid so the bend is normal. And fwiw with my stiff racquet and stiff arm breaking tension and kevlar strings if the elbow lead was a problem my arm would be the first to say so…

 

[ByeByePoly]

When they

You said “I think there's a reason that exactly zero percent of high level players with one handed backhands lead with their elbow in front of the shoulder during the swing”

i said FED and now you are talking about the OP.

One handed bh vids for Chas

Hey @Chas Tennis I promised you some vids and well that was about 20 years ago. Anyhow here are 2 from the side.

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[RVT]

You said “I think there's a reason that exactly zero percent of high level players with one handed backhands lead with their elbow in front of the shoulder during the swing”

i said FED and now you are talking about the OP.

Fed is leading with the elbow ahead of the shoulder by a fractional amount. The whole thread is about that OP's backhand or so I thought

 

[ByeByePoly]

 

[StringSnapper]

I tried to model my bh on Federer when I first started, and then I tried to model it on Wawrinka. Looks like it has aspects of both atm

 

[zill]

I tried to model my bh on Federer when I first started, and then I tried to model it on Wawrinka. Looks like it has aspects of both atm

Fedrinka!

 

[zill]

On a serious note try to model it on Shap. He gets the steepest drop out of Fed and Wawrinka and finishes more like you than Fed or Waw.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Fed

He makes his power differently than most current pros. There is more than one style of forehand and there is more than one style of 1hbh.

 

[Shroud]

Federer has a high level one hand backhand technique.

Can you find another ATP player with a bent elbow?

I'll match you plus the rest of the members finding bent elbow 1HBHs. Google lists ATP players with one hand backhands.

I'll find the straight elbow 1HBHs.

Straight elbow -
1) Wawrinka
2) Gasquet

Dimitrov

 

[Shroud]

He makes his power differently than most current pros. There is more than one style of forehand and there is more than one style of 1hbh.

Yep. fed plays closer to the base line and hits on the rise more than the straight arm guys and that elbow bend helps when hitting on the rise.

 

[zill]

Dimitrov

He has a bent elbow slot but at least the racquet face is behind him. Allowing more distance to accelerate forward. @StringSnapper's racquet face is not as far behind limiting acceleration distance.

 

[Chas Tennis]

...................................................................
I'll match you plus the rest of the members finding bent elbow 1HBHs. Google lists ATP players with one hand backhands.

Straight elbow -
1) Wawrinka
2) Gasquet

Find straight elbow vs bent elbow 1HBH players. A video is a plus.

Bent Elbow -
1) Federer
2) Dimitrov
3)


Straight Elbow -
1) Wawrinka
2) Gasquet
3) Thiem (ByeByePoly #55)
4)

 

[Chas Tennis]

The Latissimus Dorsi (lat) is one of the muscles that perform Scapular Retraction.

Anatomy, Back, Scapula - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

The lat is the largest muscle attached to the arm........................

This could be stressful to the shoulder joint in a one hand backhand, in my opinion. ?

I am thinking of the lat pulling on the humerus during the one hand backhand and its effect on Scapular Retraction. Needs work.
_______________________________________________________________________
How found -

Googled - muscles that perform Scapular Retraction

"Retraction is accomplished by the actions of the trapezius, rhomboids, and latissimus dorsi muscles. The elevation is accomplished by the trapezius, levator scapulae, and rhomboid muscles.Aug 11, 2021"
Anatomy, Back, Scapula - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › books › NBK531475

In my opinion, this fact tends to keep the humerus in the shoulder joint for the one hand backhand, so this needs more safety considerations. Needs work.

Shows lat insertion on upper arm toward end. The Trapezius also performs Scapular Retraction.

Lat muscle.

 

[Shroud]

Find straight elbow vs bent elbow 1HBH players. A video is a plus.

Bent Elbow -
1) Federer
2) Dimitrov
3)


Straight Elbow -
1) Wawrinka
2) Gasquet
3) Thiem (ByeByePoly #55)
4)

some one mentioned this. We could do the same thing with straight arm forehands just the numbers would be reversed. But there is nothing wrong with a straight arm forehand even though virtually no one uses it on the tour...

 

[Chas Tennis]

some one mentioned this. We could do the same thing with straight arm forehands just the numbers would be reversed. But there is nothing wrong with a straight arm forehand even though virtually no one uses it on the tour...

Why don't we complete the one hand backhands first?

 

[Shroud]

Why don't we complete the one hand backhands first?

because its stupid. As Chaz mentioned the bend or no bend is not a vital part of the shot.

 

[Chas Tennis]

because its stupid. As Chaz mentioned the bend or no bend is not a vital part of the shot.

I think there is a misunderstanding about what I said.

I favor a straight arm even though other bent elbow ATP players may have a 'high level backhand' by virtue of holding their own at the top of tennis. But if one technique, I call the 'chest press', is more widely used, I can favor it, advocate it and point out why in my opinion. These techniques are evolving all the time and it really is interesting the variety that is successful out there. I can't prove what is best. But I can identify techniques in videos and speculate about the biomechanics.

It is important that if you do the same stats at your club or tennis courts, I'd expect you to find fewer straight elbows than bent elbows on 1HBHs. I see the 'chest press' with straight elbow (and other sub-motions) as the biomechanical characteristic of the best one hand backhands in the world.

Here are the one hand backhand in 2019. There are compilation 1HBH videos.

Roger Federer Leads The Way, But Dominic Thiem, Stefanos Tsitsipas Will Carry On The One-Handed Backhand | ATP Tour | Tennis

Roger Federer Leads The Way, But Dominic Thiem, Stefanos Tsitsipas Will Carry On The One-Handed Backhand

www.atptour.com

At this point, what do you think the stats might be?

Of the stronger 1HBH players I was guessing 90%+ straight elbow before you discovered Dimitrov had a bent elbow. If you find a 3rd player, I'll look over the list and see what I can find. I hope others with post.

Also, since children have been discouraged from learning the one hand backhand for many years, it is not clear that the issue - 1H vs 2H - is resolved. Single frame using the period & comma keys.

Note - at the time, the 5 year old played tennis with a 2 hand backhand.

 

[ByeByePoly]

some one mentioned this. We could do the same thing with straight arm forehands just the numbers would be reversed. But there is nothing wrong with a straight arm forehand even though virtually no one uses it on the tour...

Virtually no one other than Fed and Nadal? Not sure about the count ... but those two represent a significant niche test sample.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Virtually no one other than Fed and Nadal? Not sure about the count ... but those two represent a significant niche test sample.

There are 100 forehands in the top 100.

There were only 15 1HBHs in the top 100 in 2019.

My original estimate of 90%+ in the top 100 has been blow away because Shroud has found Dimitrov, a second bent elbow player. Forget my 9 out of 10 players are straight elbow estimate. It's less.

Let's keep this thread on topic and answer this one question -

About what percent of current top 100 ATP players have a bent elbow vs a straight elbow one hand backhand?

 

[zill]

There are 100 forehands in the top 100.

There were only 15 1HBHs in the top 100 in 2019.

My original estimate of 90%+ in the top 100 has been blow away because Shroud has found Dimitrov, a second bent elbow player. Forget my 9 out of 10 players are straight elbow estimate. It's less.

Let's keep this thread on topic and answer this one question -

About what percent of current top 100 ATP players have a bent elbow vs a straight elbow one hand backhand?

I think just fed and dimitrov have bent elbow single Bh as you have to be a super athlete and player to get away with it as it’s inferior to a straight arm single Bh.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Also, since children have been discouraged from learning the one hand backhand for many years, it is not clear that the issue - 1H vs 2H - is resolved.

Ughhh, don't get me started on this. I've always held that the ONLY reason that the 2HBH is so readily promoted is that coaches can see quicker use and progress to show parents who are paying compared to the 1HBH, which take more time to develop. Has less to do with any long term effectiveness at all.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Ughhh, don't get me started on this. I've always held that the ONLY reason that the 2HBH is so readily promoted is that coaches can see quicker use and progress to show parents who are paying compared to the 1HBH, which take more time to develop. Has less to do with any long term effectiveness at all.

Sorry ... will not honor that request ... the threads are more entertaining when we get you started.

 

[Shroud]

I think there is a misunderstanding about what I said.

I favor a straight arm even though other bent elbow ATP players may have a 'high level backhand' by virtue of holding their own at the top of tennis. But if one technique, I call the 'chest press', is more widely used, I can favor it, advocate it and point out why in my opinion. These techniques are evolving all the time and it really is interesting the variety that is successful out there. I can't prove what is best. But I can identify techniques in videos and speculate about the biomechanics.

It is important that if you do the same stats at your club or tennis courts, I'd expect you to find fewer straight elbows than bent elbows on 1HBHs. I see the 'chest press' with straight elbow (and other sub-motions) as the biomechanical characteristic of the best one hand backhands in the world.

Here are the one hand backhand in 2019. There are compilation 1HBH videos.

Roger Federer Leads The Way, But Dominic Thiem, Stefanos Tsitsipas Will Carry On The One-Handed Backhand | ATP Tour | Tennis

Roger Federer Leads The Way, But Dominic Thiem, Stefanos Tsitsipas Will Carry On The One-Handed Backhand

www.atptour.com

At this point, what do you think the stats might be?

Of the stronger 1HBH players I was guessing 90%+ straight elbow before you discovered Dimitrov had a bent elbow. If you find a 3rd player, I'll look over the list and see what I can find. I hope others with post.

Also, since children have been discouraged from learning the one hand backhand for many years, it is not clear that the issue - 1H vs 2H - is resolved. Single frame using the period & comma keys.

Note - at the time, the 5 year old played tennis with a 2 hand backhand.

Sorry man. No one wants to read a book and a link to another book and have to look up muscle terms, let alone calculate a standard deviation.

here is my 2 cents on the subject. It really has to do with the loop. The one hander is always taught today with a loop takeback mostly because of the slow court surfaces and baseline game.

dimitrov it is known copied fed and has similar mechanics. Fed is older than anyone and was around when the courts were faster and was influenced by attacking tennis. Who did fed copy? Pretty sure Edberg had a big influence on his bh. The problem is finding footage that has enough frames to see things.

going further most 80s-90s one handers didnt feature a loop. If you dont do a loop takeback the straight arm is unlikely because your body is in the way. So bent arm is almost a must. Faster courts means less time for the loop and less straight arm.

Here is another vid. Sure dude is not in the Atp now but his one hander was a high level. I bet some of the other old timers with a non-loop takeback have the same elbow position.

Sorry about the book hypocrisy

 

[ballmachineguy]

Yep. fed plays closer to the base line and hits on the rise more than the straight arm guys and that elbow bend helps when hitting on the rise.

Feds backhand and Stan’s are as alike as Feds forehand and Medvedev’s. You have a lot of company in not understanding the difference. It’s not just “ I’ll straighten my arm when I feel comfortable doing it.”

 

[Chas Tennis]

Marcus Copil at 14 sec.

Dan Evans

Leonardo Mayer. First backhand 12 sec.

Philipp Kolhschreiber

 

[Chas Tennis]

Marco Cecchinato. Video starts at 30 sec. There are backhand drives around 30, 38, 54, 56 sec. Single frame using the period & comma keys.

Pablo Cuevas

Bonus Cuevas bonus, training in hotel room.

Dusan Lajovic. Single frame using the period & comma keys.

Ivo Karlovic video starts at slow motion backhand drive at 1:06. Single frame.

One-Handed Backhands In The Top 100 Of The ATP Rankings*

ATP Ranking	Player
3	Roger Federer
4	Dominic Thiem
6	Stefanos Tsitsipas
19	Marco Cecchinato
24	Denis Shapovalov
28	Stan Wawrinka
35	Dusan Lajovic
39	Richard Gasquet
46	Grigor Dimitrov
47	Pablo Cuevas
54	Philipp Kohlschreiber
68	Leonardo Mayer
80	Daniel Evans
83	Marius Copil
94	Ivo Karlovic

*Based on 27 May 2019 ATP Rankings

This list is missing F. Lopez. Did he drop out of the top 100 in May 2019?

Tsitsipas and Shapovalov were not mentioned in the posts for listing bent vs straight elbow players.

I'd list
Bent Elbow
Federer
Dimitrov

Straight Elbow
The other 13 players from the 2019 list.

All are high level one hand backhands.

I mostly prefer the 'chest press' & straight elbow technique because the straight elbow forces the entire arm to accelerate with the uppermost body. But the bent elbow allows the forearm and racket to not be coupled to the full uppermost body acceleration.

Federer does not use chest press. Dimitrov?

Backhand at 35 sec. I'd say that he initiates with 'chest press' with a bent elbow.

Grigor Dimitrov Slow Motion Compilation

Enjoy Dimitrov in slow motion (120fps) in full hdServe, forehand, backhand, ...

youtu.be

The chest press seemed to be used by most or all of the 13 players with straight elbows, but I'd like to look some more and maybe find better videos if needed. If you look for chest press there is variation on when the chest press transitions to shoulder joint motion (upper arm moves away from chest & independently of uppermost body). Seeing the straight elbow is easy. But the chest press takes quality videos and looking at the relative upper arm and uppermost body movement. See the videos.

SEARCH_BACKHAND_TOP100

 

[ByeByePoly]

@Curious I see you peeping ... world is better knowing you are out there.

 

[Rattler]

Yeah i thought your bh was good. Fwiw i played frisbee a ton as a kid so the bend is normal. And fwiw with my stiff racquet and stiff arm breaking tension and kevlar strings if the elbow lead was a problem my arm would be the first to say so…

Throwing a frisbee is a great tool to improve a one handed backhand drive

 

[Chas Tennis]

Throwing a frisbee is a great tool to improve a one handed backhand drive

 

[StringSnapper]

I've also been playing frisbee a bit lately @Shroud and when hitting thoss backhands I was thinking about throwing a frisbee

 

[Daniel Andrade]

I think you should fix your swing path first, your front leg is blocking the rotation first of all.

Why is his leg blocking the rotation of the ball?

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yeah i thought your bh was good. Fwiw i played frisbee a ton as a kid so the bend is normal. And fwiw with my stiff racquet and stiff arm breaking tension and kevlar strings if the elbow lead was a problem my arm would be the first to say so…

Is there wrist in frisbee and is it active?

 

[StringSnapper]

Why is his leg blocking the rotation of the ball?

I think he meant because my front foot looked fully planted in the screenshot, but when he saw the video (which the screenshot was taken from) he didn't think that anymore

 

[StringSnapper]

Is there wrist in frisbee and is it active?

Yeah, the more wrist the better

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yeah, the more wrist the better

But ... bh ... uh ... never mind.

 

[StringSnapper]

But ... bh ... uh ... never mind.

Well, you try to coil using the body, the arm lags, and then the wrist flicks

I think Wawrinkas coach tells him to imagine a frisbee throw

 

[mrmarble]

Well, you try to coil using the body, the arm lags, and then the wrist flicks

I think Wawrinkas coach tells him to imagine a frisbee throw

His wrist looks pretty quiet to me

 

[zill]

I think Wawrinkas coach tells him to imagine a frisbee throw

wtf when? sources?

 

[pencilcheck]

Well, you try to coil using the body, the arm lags, and then the wrist flicks

I think Wawrinkas coach tells him to imagine a frisbee throw

wrist wouldn't help you here, you will not get any power nor spin.

 

[Chas Tennis]

His wrist looks pretty quiet to me

Compare the motions to see if they look alike frame-by-frame. Compare most similar positions working back from Frisbee release and ball impact. Straight or bent elbow? Chest press for each? Wrist motions similar? Take backs. Uppermost body turn forward. Shoulder joint motions. List all sub-motions of each.

So what do you see?

 

[Fintft]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1442533382089428992

Emma’s one handed backhand! Correct mechanics!

I am so reporting you for a fake post lol Wait, or is it true?!!!

 

[ByeByePoly]

I think he meant because my front foot looked fully planted in the screenshot, but when he saw the video (which the screenshot was taken from) he didn't think that anymore

Somebody better tell Wawrinka above he is planted on that right leg when he swings.

 

[Shroud]

wrist wouldn't help you here, you will not get any power nor spin.

No one is saying the wrist is active like on a frisbee throw. Though the footwork weight transfer and elbow bend do translate to the bh.

 

[AceyMan]

Emma’s one handed backhand! Correct mechanics!

I love how freely the racquet comes around and up after contact. And you can tell by the little 'pendulum' wiggle at the end that she's not holding her the grip too firmly.


Very nice.

/Acey
(fwiw, I hit a 1HBH off both sides. Same with forehands.)