Overall, how many more matches/hours does Nadal play in clay season than other top players and...

[Ledigs]

How does this affect him transitioning to grass and winning there?

I've heard a lot of people say Federer won Wimbledon in part because he skipped clay and trained on grass, and was fresh. Nadal plays nonstop on clay for weeks, and then has a more difficult transition to grass because a) he's used to clay and b) he is not fresh

Thoughts?

 

[TheAverageFedererFan]

Maybe now but look back at Nadal from 2006-2011. He would play Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Madrid, Rome, French Open (most of the time). And do well at Wimbledon. In fact in 2008, he played in Queens and won. Maybe that applies to now, but not then.

For Federer, I think if he played French Open and some Clay Masters or a small Clay event, he would still have won Wimbledon. Skipping Stuttgart would be good if he were to play Roland Garros.

 

[Mazz Retic]

Transitioning to grass isn't a problem for Nadal. Perhaps at his age he may consider less clay tournaments so he doesn't burn out. He's the best judge though. Also, playing lots of clay seems to give rafa a confidence boost so that needs to be considered.

 

[r2473]

Grass is just green clay

 

[Waspsting]

Don't think it's a factor for a couple reasons

a) Didn't seem to bother him earlier from 2006-2011 and he was playing the same amount on clay then... I would have expected him to have gotten better rather than worse at adjusting with experience doing it

b) Novak Djokovic clocked near enough the same number of matches on clay per season as Nadal since 2011... doesn't seem to have affected his grass form much

---

I'm not sure what exactly has changed for Rafa at Wimbledon from 2011.

I attribute passivity of style (which is fairly normal for him, coupled with zoning aggressive opponents (though mostly poorly ranked at the respective times) for his woes

If he was more proactive in his approach, dictating rather than reacting... then it wouldn't matter if his opponents were redlining. .. it's Nadal's approach that's left the door open to being vulnerable to that type of stuff on a quick, low court

But frankly, I don't remember the details of how he played on the green 2006-2011 and whether it was different from 2013-present...

He was significantly more aggressive of intent in the finals and semi-finals that I do remember

Look at this year 2017. He was outplayed for first two sets by a hot Mueller, but was the better player for the last 3 sets when he stepped in more... too late though

 

[Hawaiian grip]

Don't think it's a factor for a couple reasons

a) Didn't seem to bother him earlier from 2006-2011 and he was playing the same amount on clay then... I would have expected him to have gotten better rather than worse at adjusting with experience doing it

b) Novak Djokovic clocked near enough the same number of matches on clay per season as Nadal since 2011... doesn't seem to have affected his grass form much

---

I'm not sure what exactly has changed for Rafa at Wimbledon from 2011.

I attribute passivity of style (which is fairly normal for him, coupled with zoning aggressive opponents (though mostly poorly ranked at the respective times) for his woes

If he was more proactive in his approach, dictating rather than reacting... then it wouldn't matter if his opponents were redlining. .. it's Nadal's approach that's left the door open to being vulnerable to that type of stuff on a quick, low court

But frankly, I don't remember the details of how he played on the green 2006-2011 and whether it was different from 2013-present...

He was significantly more aggressive of intent in the finals and semi-finals that I do remember

Look at this year 2017. He was outplayed for first two sets by a hot Mueller, but was the better player for the last 3 sets when he stepped in more... too late though

What has changed is that after 2012 he can't flex his knees the way he could anymore. He's pointed it out several times now. He can't adapt all that well to having to flex to hit the ball anymore, not on a consistent basis, after his knee issues back in 2012.

This year was the year he played the best at WB since 2012, though. I feel had he got past Müller, he'd have made the final. He was playing great and other than some tactical mistakes he wasn't bad against Müller either.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

OP, if he is better on clay that means that he needs a lot less special preparation and consideration than everyone else.

 

[Sudacafan]

Grass is just green clay

And hard courts are made of a certain type of solidified clay, too.

 

[Waspsting]

What has changed is that after 2012 he can't flex his knees the way he could anymore. He's pointed it out several times now. He can't adapt all that well to having to flex to hit the ball anymore, not on a consistent basis, after his knee issues back in 2012.

Yes, I've heard him say this... but can't say I find it a wholly satisfactory explanation

Flexing the knee would be most important for low bouncing surfaces like grass - but if Nadal's was in such poor shape as to outright be the direct cause of his troubles on grass, I would think it would have adversely affected him on hard courts to a much greater extent than it seems to have

2012 and on, he's 13 - 8 on grass (and that includes a 250 tournament win in Stuggart)

At Wimbledon, it's 8 - 5. Best showing 4th round

Prior to this year, when as you say he was playing well, that slips still further to 10-7 overall and 5-4 at Wimbledon. And all 4 defeats to players ranked outside the top 100

That's atrocious - and not just by his high standards

By contrast, he's 159 - 43 on hard courts over the same period (121 - 35, sans 2017). 2 US Open titles, 2 Aus finals (excluding 2012 edition when the knee was presumably fine)

Respectable results on the fastest and/or lowest bouncing venues like Shanghai, Paris, Basel, London, Cincinnati (multiple finals and semis - as well as his only title at Cincy)

I'm sure the knee issue has played a part, but if it was the primary reason, I doubt Nadal could have done as well as he has on other, not dissimilar surfaces

--

Some of it's probably mental, too

More than most, Nadal both thrives on confidence and can seem crippled without it

Do you remember the thorough thrashing he gave Andy Murray in 2011? It was glorious, commanding stuff... of play and demeanour, he looked like the Lord of the court. How about 4th set 2007 final? I haven't seen Roger Federer made to look so helpless on grass like that, not before not since

Since 2011 though, on grass Rafa mostly looks like a turtle trying to decide whether to stick it's neck out or not, leaving the play on the other guys racquet

He was very good this year, it should give him some much needed belief.... I wouldn't be surprised if he has a deep run or two left at Wimby

 

[Hawaiian grip]

Well, he was always vulnerable on grass and when he was great there he was in a very good form. His knee issues have only made it worse for him. And then there is the confidence thing as you say. That's why I think Nadal was absolutely devastated after his loss at WB this season. I think it actually hurt him more than his defeat in the AO final. He was feeling great in the All England Club for the first time in a long, long time, and it's always been his favorite tournament. He believed he had it in him to win it again this year, and it crushed him to lose to Müller. That's why I laugh when people suggest that he should skip grass altogether. He wants it bad. It's nothing like Federer and his not very well hidden disdain of clay. I'm sure Rafa would give it all to get another Wimbledon trophy before he retires.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Well, he was always vulnerable on grass and when he was great there he was in a very good form. His knee issues have only made it worse for him.

Nadal has specifically announced that his knees are pain-free and fully healthy.

That was before all those losses on grass happened.

 

[Hawaiian grip]

Nadal has specifically announced that his knees are pain-free and fully healthy.

That was before all those losses on grass happened.

Sigh*

You can go search on the internet and read pieces about him being catious about his possibilities at WB THIS VERY YEAR, specifically mentioning how difficult it has been for him since 2012 partly because of his knees. He wasn't sure how his body would respond to playing on grass again. I do believe he was fine this year health-wise and that's why he played that well and why he felt so devastated after Müller took him out. He was feeling real good and felt he had a fighter's chance.

It was still positive to see he can still compete on grass.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Sigh*

You can go search on the internet and read pieces about him being catious about his possibilities at WB THIS VERY YEAR, specifically mentioning how difficult it has been for him since 2012 partly because of his knees. He wasn't sure how his body would respond to playing on grass again. I do believe he was fine this year health-wise and that's why he played that well and why he felt so devastated after Müller took him out. He was feeling real good and felt he had a fighter's chance.

It was still positive to see he can still compete on grass.

He does enough so that everyone and his pet knows what new "injury"/"trouble" is stopping him to perform well, so you are not telling me something I don't already know.

My point is, he went into the trouble of explaining how his years of knee problems are over and he clearly meant it.

Knowing the nature of the supposed problem I can definitely say that if he felt so good to state something like that then he has to have felt that he has restored his full health to the point that it wasn't obstructing his game in any way.

Now, whatever he has to say after the fact is of no interest to me.

He is known for his backhanded excuses citing injuries noone has heard of until he mentioned them after he had a bad stretch or even a single match and, more importantly, that didn’t manifest themselves in any visible way.

He doesn't get to say for years now that his knees have been alright and then come back with "oh, I didn't play well, because something could have happened".

I mean, he can say it, it is just that only a very small group of people would find this to be a satisfactory explanation.

 

[Hawaiian grip]

Whatever.

I'm telling you what he said before this very Wimbledon. He said afterwards he'd felt good there this time round for the first time in a while and it was one of the reasons it was so painful to go out like that.

You choose what you want to believe. I'm not interested in a pointless back and forth exchange of speculations with well-known Nadal haters. I do think there are several reasons he has struggled at WB, his kneed not being the only one, and both Wapsting and I covered them. At the end of the day, you believe what you want to believe.

 

[kevaninho]

Have you seen Rafa these days? Hes as stiff as a board. His flexibility is poor. Now that is not going to help you on grass if youre like that. Maybe he was feeling great with the knee, and I agree he did say he was healthy. But he aint going to retrieve many skidding low balls if he cant get himself down there.
Obviously this happens to everyone as they age, and im not sure if Rafa works much on his flexibility ( Id presume he does ), but its obvious to anyone, he isn't physically as capable on grass as he was in his youth.

 

[kevaninho]

As for the topic. Im pretty sure Rafa was dispatching players in straight sets at RG this year, and not taking too long like years ago. It wasn't an issue about him being too tired going into Wimbledon.

 

[fedtennisphan]

How does this affect him transitioning to grass and winning there?

I've heard a lot of people say Federer won Wimbledon in part because he skipped clay and trained on grass, and was fresh. Nadal plays nonstop on clay for weeks, and then has a more difficult transition to grass because a) he's used to clay and b) he is not fresh

Thoughts?

First of all, Federer never trained on grass after skipping the FO this year. He only practiced on HC. Federer not playing the FO and being "fresh" does not automatically give him the title at WB. Nadal plays nonstop on clay because that surface is his life-preserver. Nadal is not a natural grass court player so the transition is going to be difficult no matter what. Federer doesn't need that much grass preparation whether he's making the transition from clay to grass or not because grass is natural to him. Federer only needs to play Halle, that's it to prepare for WB. Federer would not try to rack up as many grass court titles he can even if it were more grass tournaments because he is not desperate to win them as Nadal is on clay.

 

[Tiki-Taka]

First of all, Federer never trained on grass after skipping the FO this year. He only practiced on HC. Federer not playing the FO and being "fresh" does not automatically give him the title at WB. Nadal plays nonstop on clay because that surface is his life-preserver. Nadal is not a natural grass court player so the transition is going to be difficult no matter what. Federer doesn't need that much grass preparation whether he's making the transition from clay to grass or not because grass is natural to him. Federer only needs to play Halle, that's it to prepare for WB. Federer would not try to rack up as many grass court titles he can even if it were more grass tournaments because he is not desperate to win them as Nadal is on clay.

Totally. Nadal should have done a smart thing instead and ignored/tanked most of the tournaments that are on his favorite surface, because dominating it the way he did is a sign of... wait for it... desperation!

Wow...

 

[fedtennisphan]

Totally. Nadal should have done a smart thing instead and ignored/tanked most of the tournaments that are on his favorite surface, because dominating it the way he did is a sign of... wait for it... desperation!

Wow...

Yes, trying to play as many tournaments on clay just because it's your favorite surface when it's not necessary and leaves Nadal too tired to play effectively for the rest of season is quite telling. Federer has favorite surfaces too but he doesn't place all his eggs and ranking points on one surface. That's why his title distribution is evenly spread out before and after WB. Nadal and his fans know this hence the indignation when I openly talk about it.

 

[Tiki-Taka]

Yes, trying to play as many tournaments on clay just because it's your favorite surface when it's not necessary and leaves Nadal too tired to play effectively for the rest of season is quite telling. Federer has favorite surfaces too but he doesn't place all his eggs and ranking points on one surface. That's why his title distribution is evenly spread out before and after WB. Nadal and his fans know this hence the indignation when I openly talk about it.

So 4-5 tournaments on a surface where a player is head and shoulders above everyone else in 2 and a half months is now overplaying? Nobody sane will suggest that Nadal is the more versatile player of the two but he doesn't play any more than lovers of other surfaces play on theirs. It's idiotic to penalize Nadal for dominating a surface by saying he is putting all his eggs on it when he is a competitive beast every day no matter where he is playing. Also if I remember well he has multiple titles at Wimbledon, US Open and Canada so even though it's not Federer level of title distribution, that's not so bad for someone who is considered one-dimensional by the "experts", no?

 

[fedtennisphan]

So 4-5 tournaments on a surface where a player is head and shoulders above everyone else in 2 and a half months is now overplaying? Nobody sane will suggest that Nadal is the more versatile player of the two but he doesn't play any more than lovers of other surfaces play on theirs. It's idiotic to penalize Nadal for dominating a surface by saying he is putting all his eggs on it when he is a competitive beast every day no matter where he is playing. Also if I remember well he has multiple titles at Wimbledon, US Open and Canada so even though it's not Federer level of title distribution, that's not so bad for someone who is considered one-dimensional by the "experts", no?

Drop the fake indignation, Nadal overplays during the clay court season to build his clay resume and get his points. Hell even Federer tanked Dubai and Stuttgart this year to prepare for the Sunshine Double and WB. I never said Nadal was one-dimesional.

 

[Tiki-Taka]

Drop the fake indignation, Nadal overplays during the clay court season to build his clay resume and get his points. Hell even Federer tanked Dubai and Stuttgart this year to prepare for the Sunshine Double and WB. I never said Nadal was one-dimesional.

How dare he build his clay resume and earn points, so evil.

So Nadal playing clay Masters and one minor event like majority of the Tour does is overplaying but Federer playing IW, Miami, Halle and Toronto is vital, he wasn't desperate to add to his hard court resume. Following your logic there, Nadal also tanked Rome this year to prepare for Roland Garros. But I know you will analyze this case differently.

 

[Sudacafan]

Nadal plays too much in clay because he can’t lose in that surface.

 

[GaryRoy2017]

How does this affect him transitioning to grass and winning there?

I've heard a lot of people say Federer won Wimbledon in part because he skipped clay and trained on grass, and was fresh. Nadal plays nonstop on clay for weeks, and then has a more difficult transition to grass because a) he's used to clay and b) he is not fresh

Thoughts?

Nadal judges himself by his clay season. Remember 2009? Won AO and IW and had good clay season except for FO. He then disappeared for the year as that loss hurt so much. AO was no consolation.

Federer is similar in that Wimbledon is what he truly covets. Both sort of aim to peak for their pet slams.

expect many more early exits for Nadal at Wimbledon now. He won't be adjusting his clay schedule.

 

[GaryRoy2017]

So 4-5 tournaments on a surface where a player is head and shoulders above everyone else in 2 and a half months is now overplaying? Nobody sane will suggest that Nadal is the more versatile player of the two but he doesn't play any more than lovers of other surfaces play on theirs. It's idiotic to penalize Nadal for dominating a surface by saying he is putting all his eggs on it when he is a competitive beast every day no matter where he is playing. Also if I remember well he has multiple titles at Wimbledon, US Open and Canada so even though it's not Federer level of title distribution, that's not so bad for someone who is considered one-dimensional by the "experts", no?

You could say Nadal is more versatile. Only player to have a Major at leat twice on each surface. Also has two Wimbledons to Federers one FO. It depends really how important people take indoor tennis. As there is no Major indoors I don't really and think of tennis as purely an outdoor sport.

 

[VolleyHelena]

You could say Nadal is more versatile. Only player to have a Major at leat twice on each surface. Also has two Wimbledons to Federers one FO. It depends really how important people take indoor tennis. As there is no Major indoors I don't really and think of tennis as purely an outdoor sport.

Wilander has that too.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Nadal plays too much in clay because he can’t lose in that surface.

You say that like it's easy