I did not state the year and perhaps I should have. In 1987, at Wimbledon, MN was very much the favorite and still the dominant presence. Steffi was the underdog at that stage. Not sure what you are aiming at in regards to '91, but the crowd was behind Martina as the sentimental favorite. Yes, it is both obvious and REAL. I think you are just trolling. Have fun.
Players' comments which backfired spectacularly
- Thread starter R. Schweikart
- Start date
I did not state the year and perhaps I should have. In 1987, at Wimbledon, MN was very much the favorite and still the dominant presence. Steffi was the underdog at that stage. Not sure what you are aiming at in regards to '91, but the crowd was behind Martina as the sentimental favorite. Yes, it is both obvious and REAL. I think you are just trolling. Have fun.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
it similar to how the word Actor is used. I can't find anything online about this alleged 2011 poll.
Graf1stClass
Professional
Both are insufferable... It needs to be put to rest
R. Schweikart
Professional
So you found one match, in the USA at that, when the crowd supported Navratilova more than Graf.
Dude, you are the troll here.
R. Schweikart
Professional
You won't believe it - the Wimbledon tournament has it not on their website anymore...
Try the "Wayback Machine".
Or look for tennis forums; it was discussed back then in various forums.
R. Schweikart
Professional
I like Steffi fans quite well. They are educated, well-informed, work with logic and statistical data. Most are even very polite.
Seles nutters have only one narrative - Moni won 7 of 9 slams in 2.25 years. Some of them even claim that the Graf family order the hit on their fave.
JoelSandwich
Hall of Fame
Immediately what I thought of
I don't know of anyone in my immediate circle of tennis friends who were big Graf fans.....all Americans, obviously. Maybe I did not have the right friends? There were still folks rallying around the later days of Evert and Navratilova and 'kids' like Seles and Capriati were drawing interest and excitement as well. Not saying she had no fans--she did--but never felt like she was a crowd favorite (unless you are talking about that hideous FO final against Hingis). Let's face it, she was hard to warm up to...she did not wear her emotions on her sleeve either. Maybe if she made more of an effort with the press? We had 'icy' types on court (Borg, Evert) but they warmed up a bit more off the court and were loved by Americans. Just never saw that from Steffi. She was very quiet and let her game do the talking. Important, but not endearing.
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
Personally I think Graf is a champion hard to love but easy to respect.
She never really gave back to the WTA whilst playing, and hasn't really since. But she's probably living her best life as, like Evert, she's not hung up on her tennis accomplishments. And unlike Serena Williams, Graf doesn't feel the need to live in the spotlight. A healthy attitude.
Her uber fanatics however . .
silentkman
Hall of Fame
They define the word Fanatic. I'm sure Stephanie would no part of this creepy behavior. Seles will always be inside the Grafs fanatics head. I think 7 out 9 Slams is consider statistical data. btw, this allege poll is not even scientific. Netherlands won to clinch a spot.
R. Schweikart
Professional
And yet she easily won almost all favorite polls in the 1990s. Only Sabatini won one here and there, narrowly ahead of Steffi.
She even had a big international fan club, with chapters in many countries.
Has there ever been a player who was more supported in a slam final than Steffi at the FO finals in 1992, 1996, 1999? Sanchez (1996) and Hingis (1999) were reduced to tears, so one-sided did the French crowd support the German blonde.
Or in Wimbledon against Navratilova in 1988, against Seles in 1992, against Davenport in 1999? Almost everybody was pro-Steffi.
And at Australian Open final against Seles 1993?
In Paris against Frenchwoman Pierce in 1995?
Again against Seles at the YEC 1998 in NYC against US-American Seles?
With her grace, her grit, her humility, her character, her ability to ignore private pain she became the icon of modern women's tennis.
Almost all polls were and to this day are evidence for that.
US newsmagazine TIME wrote this about her when they chose her as one of their "European Heroes of Europe 2004":
"A few sports stars win something rarer than trophies or championships - an enduring place in the public's affections. Steffi Graf is one of them. She hung up her racket five years ago after winning an amazing 22 Grand Slam titles, but that doesn't mean she is any less busy or beloved."
British Eurosport commentator Simon Reed said during the victory ceremony at the FO 96:
"There has never been a more popular champion than Steffi Graf.“
Why is it so difficult for some Americans to admit that?
R. Schweikart
Professional
No player after King gave back more to women's tennis (not the WTA suits!) than Steffi Graf. BJ King herself said a few years ago about her, "She was the first global superstar". Steffi almost single-handedly popularized women's tennis in India and China. She did a lot off-court for the tour in Germany (I never saw Evert or Navratilova do anything here). And she did all this with a lot of class, on the court and off the court. Many players of the 2000s decade had her posters on their children's rooms (for instance Clijsters and Henin!), the current generation was too young for that.
Do you remember how the crowd cheered when Steffi presented the trophy to the FO winner Kuznetsova in 2009? How the Wimbledon crowd cheered for no one more than for Steffi at the Wimbledon Champions Parade in 2000?
"There has never been a more popular champion than Steffi Graf.“
(Simon Reed, Eurosport commentator, FO 1996 final)
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
You are funny. Just a hoot. Although I must admit I do wish you'd be clearer as to whom is your favourite player? I've ruled out Seles, but after that it's an absolute lottery. Testament to your unbiased posts that I can't quite work it out . .
R. Schweikart
Professional
What is factually wrong with what I wrote?
1) No player after King gave back more to women's tennis (not the WTA suits!) than Steffi Graf. Who else?
2) BJ King herself said a few years ago about her, "She was the first global superstar". Who else?
3) Steffi almost single-handedly popularized women's tennis in India and China. Who else?
4) She did a lot off-court for the tour in Germany (I never saw Evert or Navratilova do anything here). Who did more?
5) And she did all this with a lot of class, on the court and off the court. Who else did that?
6) Many players of the 2000s decade had her posters on their children's rooms (for instance Clijsters and Henin!), the current generation was too young for that. Which other players had more posters being hung up by aspiring tennis kids who became pros in the 00s?
7) Do you remember how the crowd cheered when Steffi presented the trophy to the FO winner Kuznetsova in 2009? Didn't the crowd cheer?
8) How the Wimbledon crowd cheered for no one more than for Steffi at the Wimbledon Champions Parade in 2000? For whom did they cheer more?
9) "There has never been a more popular champion than Steffi Graf.“ (Simon Reed, Eurosport commentator, FO 1996 final) Who else?
Bring it on - or shut up, Yankee boy...
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
"Factually wrong" . .err, as I've oft stated to you yourself, I'm English not American.
And as to your blind devotion, of scary proportions, to Ms Graf, it makes any reasonable debate with you absolutely impossible. Just impossible.
But let's start with this: What did Graf give back to tennis whilst playing?
d-quik
Hall of Fame
Americans mostly have a weird affinity for extroverts. A lot of them associate extraversion with being more forthright
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
oh come on. Look, we all like an Respect Graf but this is just a little excessive. Players Since King have more than Given back to the tour and the players in the form of coaching Captaining their nations Fed Cup Teams, acting as tournament directors, opened tennis academies, etc etc. Graf has certainly been involved in join business ventures with her husband, but in terms of giving back to Tennis...Steffi has a center dedicated to her but I don't believe she is involved in it. She's never captained fed cup. I don't think she has ever done massive amounts of commentary. Has she ever coached another player? I don't recall her doing so but could be wrong. I remember she convinced Andre to coach Novak, which I think was awesome.
Look, I love Graf, I grew up watching her and was a huge fan of hers. She's #2 on my GOAT list behind Martina (and lately I weigh them almost co #1). But don't inflate her by dumping on other players passive aggressively, that doesn't do anything for her legacy.
R. Schweikart
Professional
Americans often hide behind "I'm English" when they are caught....
I don't have any "blind devotion" for anyone in tennis. Impossible is only to beat me with facts about the history of women's tennis in the sport's Golden Age.
Steffi giving back to tennis?
She drew more fans to the sport than any other female player in the last 140 years. By far!
She was a role model in good behavior for young girls in sports all over the world.
She was beloved by tournament staffs, the greenkeepers, the cleaning women, the servants, the ushers etc. - the little people. Not the suits of the WTA.
She appeared on TV shows, in schools, at football and ice hockey matches etc. more than an other female sports star in the nation to promote tennis.
She was world champion in giving autographs after matches and practice hours, often for more than 30 minutes (I was a witness of that once, impressive how patient she was with the fans while they were falling over themselves).
I even remember her doing a tennis clinic in some inner city public school in the USA (never saw Navratilova or Evert doing that in Germany!).
R. Schweikart
Professional
Coaching, captaining at FedCup, acting as tournament directors, commentating on TV, opening tennis academies - that is for people who want to earn their money with a job connected to tennis. Because their future as lawyer, actor, physician would be very limited. Tennis is what they know, so in tennis they work. For money. What of that is "giving back"? They just take other people's job opportunities away!!
A superstar like Steffi coaching Sabalenka or Sakkari? Commentating a match between Fernandez and Kerber in Indian Wells??
Are you serious???
Steffi is occupied enough with saving kids from war-torn countries.
No, she doesn't earn money there. She gave and gives away millions of Euros of her current income from endorsements (Teekanne, Longines, Feiler etc.). That is giving back, giving backc to society!
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
Americans often hide behind "I'm English" when they are caught....
I don't have any "blind devotion" for anyone in tennis. Impossible is only to beat me with facts about the history of women's tennis in the sport's Golden Age.
Steffi giving back to tennis?
She drew more fans to the sport than any other female player in the last 140 years. By far!
She was a role model in good behavior for young girls in sports all over the world.
She was beloved by tournament staffs, the greenkeepers, the cleaning women, the servants, the ushers etc. - the little people. Not the suits of the WTA.
She appeared on TV shows, in schools, at football and ice hockey matches etc. more than an other female sports star in the nation to promote tennis.
She was world champion in giving autographs after matches and practice hours, often for more than 30 minutes (I was a witness of that once, impressive how patient she was with the fans while they were falling over themselves).
I even remember her doing a tennis clinic in some inner city public school in the USA (never saw Navratilova or Evert doing that in Germany!).
So I'm 'American' because it suits your ridiculous obsessive agenda. Hey ho.
You're a parody of Joe Pike.
An absolute parody.
I'm not taking you remotely seriously from this moment on.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
Coaching, captaining at FedCup, acting as tournament directors, commentating on TV, opening tennis academies - that is for people who want to earn their money with a job connected to tennis. Because their future as lawyer, actor, physician would be very limited. Tennis is what they know, so in tennis they work. For money. What of that is "giving back"? They just take other people's job opportunities away!!
A superstar like Steffi coaching Sabalenka or Sakkari? Commentating a match between Fernandez and Kerber in Indian Wells??
Are you serious???
Steffi is occupied enough with saving kids from war-torn countries.
No, she doesn't earn money there. She gave and gives away millions of Euros of her current income from endorsements (Teekanne, Longines, Feiler etc.). That is giving back, giving backc to society!
Yes giving back to the sport means actively being involved in it and doing things to promote the next generations of players. You said she has given a ton back to tennis, just because her face shows up on TV a lot doesn't equate to giving back to Tennis. I'm sure Steffi could teach many of these girls amazing technique and be a coach, but according to you that is below her? what is she some sort of demi god who cannot be involved with the masses of the sport that made her famous to begin with in your mind?
So to you a player like Mauresmo who has coached players like Andy Murray and captained Frances Fed and Davis cup teams has given less to Tennis since retiring since Graf, that what she does is just for a check and means nothing? You seriously have some warped perceptions of what "giving back to the sport" means. I am fully aware Graf has kids and other interests. I support them. Her and Andre are a lovely couple, and she seems to be truly happy with her life. Maybe she doesn't want to do any of the things I mentioned, but seriously, don't sit here and dump on all those things just because your beloved doesn't choose to engage in them. If Steffi started saying the Earth was flat you'd probably call her an expert scientist.
I'm done, you clearly are just in your own little world.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
little is the operative word here.
R. Schweikart
Professional
She paid all taxes, with interest.
R. Schweikart
Professional
You think Becker coached Djokovic or commentated on BBC and EuroSport "to give back to the sport"....?
Steffi was also lucky that she hit her peak at the end of the Martina-Chrissie era and that Seles, her main rival, was stabbed and was never the same player she was before the stabbing.
ROFL...yeah, I'm not so sure what the 'give back' was, but again, it could've been mostly in GR. But, there were other global tennis superstars...Evert was certainly one....who alongside Borg had rather universal appeal. I think Gabby was another actually...she had a lot of worshipping fans, who I thought were more intense than Steffi's. People like who they like and that's the fun of it, but none of these players walk on water, let's face it. When Steffi does that, or turns water into wine, let me know
Unfortunately, that incident will always be the caveat won't it? But, I think it would have been pretty evenly played between them during those lost years. Just not convinced Monica would have proven to be her better all the time, on all surfaces. Maybe Seles would've taken 2 of every 3 match ups, I'm guessing. Monica was a big thorn in her side, no question.
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
Evert/Navratilova carried on the torch from BJK in fostering the next generation. And Evert was WTA President whilst still playing.ROFL...yeah, I'm not so sure what the 'give back' was, but again, it could've been mostly in GR. But, there were other global tennis superstars...Evert was certainly one....who alongside Borg had rather universal appeal. I think Gabby was another actually...she had a lot of worshipping fans, who I thought were more intense than Steffi's. People like who they like and that's the fun of it, but none of these players walk on water, let's face it. When Steffi does that, or turns water into wine, let me know
She and Navratilova divided the small tournaments between them so to create awareness for women's tennis and give the public an opportunity to see at least one tennis superstar.
Plus Evert was a star from the get go - initially all the buzz was about Sabatini, not Graf, when they both appeared as teenagers.
Evert was a superstar from her first major. Graf wasn't.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Rusedski's comments about Sampras at the 2002 US Open come to mind. Rusedski said that Sampras had lost a step and a half, and he thought Haas would beat Sampras. Sampras responded by saying "Against him (Rusedski), I don't need to be a step and a half quicker". Sampras beat Rusedski, Haas, Roddick, Schalken and Agassi in succession.
R. Schweikart
Professional
The US narrative....
Steffi became #1 in August 1987.
When Navratilova was 30 years old.
Navratilova, who didn't win her third of 18 slams before having turned 25 in late 1981.
Navratilova, who would still make a slam final 7 years later, in 1994.
Navratilova, who had her 7th-best winning percentage in 1988 in a 22-year-long career, the year when Steffi won the Golden Slam.
Navratilova, who had her 6th-best winning percentage in 1989 in a 22-year-long career.
Navratilova, who had a 67-3 win/loss run from spring 1989 until spring 1990 with all three losses being hard-fought matches against peaking Steffi.
Seles was very well the same player when she returned in 1995. Bigger, more powerful, albeit a bit fatter.
Seles had a 56-6 win/loss run from August 1995 until November 1996 with 2 losses in the USO 95 and 96 finals against peaking Steffi.
Had Seles won them (in case Steffi had still been in a slump like in the early 90s) it would have been 58-4. A better winning percentage than in her best year ever, 1992.
Two anti-Steffi myths debunked in 5 minutes.
But come on, let the hate out....
What hate? All those facts about Martina are true....both she and Evert were aging out. Formidable yes, invincible, no. The Seles situation is much more complicated. I don't think she was the 'same player' and I suspect many would agree. She stayed away a bit too long and as we know now, the event had a psychological impact on her. Steffi won all of her events 'fair and square' as they say. And, she was challenged by Gabby and Aranxta now and again, but it was not quite the same level of challenge Monica presented.
R. Schweikart
Professional
Navratilova had the 6th-best winning percentage of a 22-year-long career in 1989.
But Steffi's success in 1989 doesn't count a lot because Martina was too old.
Graf had the 11th-best winning percentage of a 17-year-long career in 1991.
But Seles's success in 1991 was the best since sliced bread because Graf has no excuse.
Don't call it "hate", call it bigoted hypocrisy.
Never said results don't count; they count under any/all circumstances.
And it's not hypocritical, it's factual that players aged, Monica got stabbed, etc.
You are just twisting it into some strange view of events.
R. Schweikart
Professional
But it is not factual that Seles would have won many slams in the time she didn't play in 1993-95.
Factual is however that in 8 cases since 1968 when a player had success similar to Seles's in 1991-93 she won exactly 1.5 slams on average in the next 2.25 years.
Seles might have won 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 of the 10 slams played from the FO 93 to Wimbledon 95.
But the odds are massively that she would not.
And almost nil that this would have reduced Steffi's slam tally in a significant way.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
what did Seles returned from exactly? dude how can you say that Seles was the same player? I'm waiting for another Graff endorsed faux poll. Like i said, this is creepy behavior.
R. Schweikart
Professional
Dude, calling Steffi "Graff" is even more creepy. You know exactly how to spell her name. And yet you and many of your comrades intentionally butcher it again and again.
Do you guys have no shame?
But the creepiest is to suggest that Seles of 1995/96 was worse than Seles of 1991/92.
From August 1995 to November 1996 Seles had a very successful run, was 56-6 win/loss.
2 losses came at the hand of Steffi Graf. The USO 95 and 96 finals. Great matches. Steffi was not in a slump anymore like 1991/92. Bad luck for Seles this time!
Had Seles met a still slumping Steffi and won those two finals she would have had even a 58-4 win/loss run.
58-4 is an even higher winning percentage than her 70-5 win/loss record in her greatest year ever, 1992.
You should understand that Steffi fans are utterly disgusted by this constant "was never the same" excuse BS.
Yes, Seles went down from late 1996 on, due to injuries. So did Steffi from 1997 on. Both were never the same again, dude!
R. Schweikart
Professional
Why do you discuss tennis with other posters in tennis forums?
Why does it matter to you what strangers there think?
There are numerous international polls about the "greatest of all time" and the "most favorite player".
Steffi Graf won and still wins most of them. Sometimes even in the USA (where fans usually are very nationalistic in sports matters - as fans in most countries are).
Here are a few recent ones:
Steffi beat Navratilova and S. Williams clearly in an Italian GOAT poll (“Gazzetta di Parma“, July 2018):
Gazzafun: Steffi Graf o Serena Williams? Vota la miglior tennista di sempre!
L'edizione 2018 di Wimbledon è alle sue battute conclusive. Questa settimana, abbiamo scelto 7 tra le tenniste più vincenti e popolari degli ultimi anni. A te il compito di decidere chi è la migliore tra loro!
gazzafun.gazzettadiparma.it
US tennis fans (!) narrowly voted for Steffi Graf as “greatest of all time“ at “tennis.com“ (November 2018):
GOAT Vote: Steffi or Serena? 'The Ten' went one way; you went another. | Tennis.com
<p><strong>Watch the second episode of <em>The Ten—Wom
“The Guardian“ (UK) readers voted for Steffi Graf as GOAT, giving her nearly twice as many votes as any other player (July 2020):
The greatest female tennis player of the last 50 years: the fans' verdict
Who is the best of the best? Our writers have had their say this week. Now it’s time to hear from our readers
www.theguardian.com
Austrian tennis website „tennisnet.com“ asked 29 experts and they overwhelmingly voted for Steffi Graf as GOAT (December 2020):
Steffi, Serena, Martina - so haben die Experten abgestimmt
Die Details zur Legendenfrage
Why is this so hard to accept for Navratilova, Seles, Serena fans?
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
Please let this thread die.
R. Schweikart
Professional
The usual suspects started to attack Steffi Graf again.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
silentkman
Hall of Fame
Dude, you are absolutely a fanatic which is creepy. I love this "Seles went down" quote. I bet Stefanie Maria Graf would agree with me. I actually feel sorry for her because she probably knows the type of creeps that are there. i see why she moved her family to Vegas.
silentkman
Hall of Fame
Why do you discuss tennis with other posters in tennis forums?
Why does it matter to you what strangers there think?
There are numerous international polls about the "greatest of all time" and the "most favorite player".
Steffi Graf won and still wins most of them. Sometimes even in the USA (where fans usually are very nationalistic in sports matters - as fans in most countries are).
Here are a few recent ones:
Steffi beat Navratilova and S. Williams clearly in an Italian GOAT poll (“Gazzetta di Parma“, July 2018):
Gazzafun: Steffi Graf o Serena Williams? Vota la miglior tennista di sempre!
L'edizione 2018 di Wimbledon è alle sue battute conclusive. Questa settimana, abbiamo scelto 7 tra le tenniste più vincenti e popolari degli ultimi anni. A te il compito di decidere chi è la migliore tra loro!
US tennis fans (!) narrowly voted for Steffi Graf as “greatest of all time“ at “tennis.com“ (November 2018):
GOAT Vote: Steffi or Serena? 'The Ten' went one way; you went another. | Tennis.com
<p><strong>Watch the second episode of <em>The Ten—Womwww.tennis.com
“The Guardian“ (UK) readers voted for Steffi Graf as GOAT, giving her nearly twice as many votes as any other player (July 2020):
The greatest female tennis player of the last 50 years: the fans' verdict
Who is the best of the best? Our writers have had their say this week. Now it’s time to hear from our readers
Austrian tennis website „tennisnet.com“ asked 29 experts and they overwhelmingly voted for Steffi Graf as GOAT (December 2020):
Steffi, Serena, Martina - so haben die Experten abgestimmt
Die Details zur Legendenfragewww.tennisnet.com
Why is this so hard to accept for Navratilova, Seles, Serena fans?
The tennis.com is probably the best since you had so may votes. The UK poll only had 500 votes. Austria borders Germany so that seems like a fair vote. no
R. Schweikart
Professional
That is American hypocrisy in a nutshell!:
Austria borders Germany and therefore an Austrian poll doesn't count.
But US polls count (even though there about 95 % of voters are US citizens favoring of course US players).
The funniest thing, however, is when US posters seriously quote King (USA), Evert (USA), McEnroe (USA), Austin (USA) etc. calling Serena (USA) the GOAT on US TV channels - and really think that means anything.
And when you call them out on this they react totally surprised!!
silentkman
Hall of Fame
That is American hypocrisy in a nutshell!:
Austria borders Germany and therefore an Austrian poll doesn't count.
But US polls count (even though there about 95 % of voters are US citizens favoring of course US players).
The funniest thing, however, is when US posters seriously quote King (USA), Evert (USA), McEnroe (USA), Austin (USA) etc. calling Serena (USA) the GOAT on US TV channels - and really think that means anything.
And when you call them out on this they react totally surprised!!
The Austrian poll is bias, i think the voters were listed. The tenns.com poll had thousands of votes. this is a poll that you listed. I found a poll that Serena by a overwhelming majority. they were both great.
News and Blog | Keith Prowse
R. Schweikart
Professional
The Austrian poll is bias, i think the voters were listed. The tenns.com poll had thousands of votes. this is a poll that you listed. I found a poll that Serena by a overwhelming majority. they were both great.
News and Blog | Keith Prowse
www.keithprowse.co.uk
That very surprising BBC poll was obviously influenced heavily by Serena winning her 23rd and last slam just the week before.
Ballot stuffing by US tennis fans might have played a huge role as well.
This does not qualify. Its more of a cute faux pas story. Evert has done a string of interviews with the past WTA champions. She is interviewing Hingis about her confidence level as a junior. She asks her about about her early success in the junior French Open championships ( twice she won it) And she chats saying her major girl rivals were American, about how 'Americans hate the red stuff ' and how she saw it as really embarrassing as a junior, to ever lose on clay to an American girl player. The camera pans Evert's bemused face, eyebrows raised, head cocked to the side. Hingis starts to giggle self consciously. " I guess I am obviously talking to the wrong person here...." Evert lets her off the hood. "Well, I am a Floridian..."
It was a good natured exchange, but Evert was probably not the best interviewer, to make this particular point to...
It was a good natured exchange, but Evert was probably not the best interviewer, to make this particular point to...
LOL----that is pretty funny! it does seem like the US ladies have drifted away from their clay court prowess days. Who was the last US player who was really good on clay? Not that Serena is 'bad' on it, but it's clearly not her best surface. Capriati had a little success, too. But, other than those two, we've been in a desert
