Players Racquets.....Variety.

[PurePrestige]

I was just wondering why there are only like, one player's racquet for each company with each new line.
It seems to me aside from the POG that Wilson is the only one that still has Stiff players frames. Wilson consistently has frames with stiffness ratings of 66 and higher on frames like the 6.0, tour90, ncode90, etc.
Head, Dunlop, Yonex and others have player racquets with stiffness ratings of about 58-62.
Why wouldn't racquet companies at least have a Stiff players racquet and a Flexible players racquet? Is it just, the way of the company as to how their specific ultimate Player's frame should be? Or is it just that marketing 2 different frames like this at once is inefficient?

 

[Steve H.]

Interesting question. I checked RacquetFinder, there are the Estusa Power Beam series and the POG mid, both medium stiff, but otherwise nothing over 66 and 11.7 ounces.

 

[16]

i think the bab PC and aero control are heavy and stiff.

 

[hummer23]

they arent really calssic players frames though. calssic playsers frames are something like 11.8+, and 93 inch head max, we are talking POg mid, prestige classic, pro staff 6. babolat hardly fits in that group.

 

[BreakPoint]

Some Wilson player's racquets like the PS 6.0 95, and even the 85 to some degree, may have high stiffness ratings but they do not play nearly that stiff. The PS 6.0 95 feels like a very flexible racquet to me, like it should have a RDC rating of 60. I think it's because it has a flexible hoop which offsets the stiffer throat (where they take the RDC measurement).

 

[TommyGun]

The big companies don't make any money off of us. Its that simple. They give you A choice, so you won't run away if you are brand loyal, but then they plow every buck into rec frames that they can run a billion of, dump onto the big discounters like Sports Authority, ***** and Modell's.

Why do you think I like custom (Vantage, Boz) so much?

 

[Racketdesign]

Why wouldn't racquet companies at least have a Stiff players racquet and a Flexible players racquet? QUOTE]

Its a very good point PurePrestige. wouldnt it be nice if there was a company offering such a thing, along with other choices. In fact, it would be nice if there was a company that was dedicated to providing frames purly for the serious player. Sounds like a business plan I wrote once...

 

[NoBadMojo]

Suggest the term 'Players Racquet' has changed, and isnt even very relevant these days. Seems more like the 98headsized stiff frames are becoming the Players frames as evidenced by so many better players, collegiate players and pros using such racquets. The irony is that they may actually be the 'Players frames', because it does take a pretty advanced skillset to control the power of these things. The traditional 'players frames' now seem to be more for the recreational player. Suggest companies dont offer more small headed stiff frames because if you mishit with a small headed stiff frame, you get no result at all, and it is pretty easy to mis hit using a frame like this given the person on the other side of the net is likely to be using something stiff and powerful and larger headed, and balls are whizzing at you at a zillion miles an hour. it is easy however, to flush hit a 90 headsize if someone is hitting balls at a slow rate of speed to you. also, if people were actually buying small headed players frames in any quantity, dont you think companies would offer more of them? or even offer one of them? BabbleLot doesnt even have an offeirng under 98 I dont believe other than maybe a junior frame or something. Also, the RDC stiffness measurement measures overall racquet stiffness, and not stiffness at the throat.

 

[Deuce]

Why wouldn't racquet companies at least have a Stiff players racquet and a Flexible players racquet? QUOTE]

Its a very good point PurePrestige. wouldnt it be nice if there was a company offering such a thing, along with other choices. In fact, it would be nice if there was a company that was dedicated to providing frames purly for the serious player. Sounds like a business plan I wrote once...

Do you have any plans to add a base frame that qualifies as 'flexible' to the two base frames you currently offer?

As Ed said - the definition of a 'player's frame' has changed - thanks mainly to the unfortunate Babolat influence, I believe. There was a time when a traditional 'player's frame' was inherently heavy and carried a comfortable flex.

That said, I'm still hanging in there against the bigger, stiffer monsters with my trusty, comparatively little Graphite Edges...

If I ever were faced with a choice of having to play with a Pure Drive type of frame, or quitting the game entirely, methinks tennis would be history for me.

 

[BreakPoint]

Also, the RDC stiffness measurement measures overall racquet stiffness, and not stiffness at the throat.

Hmmmm...Not trying to be nitpicky or anything but I think this is an important issue for a lot of people when they look at racquet specs, and since this is contrary to what I've always heard (and feel when I playtest racquets). Here's a second opinion:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=42662&highlight=RDC+throat

I'm not sure who's correct? Anyone else who knows for sure care to chime in?

 

[NoBadMojo]

wrong breakpoint...as per the usual. the leverage point for the measurement is in the middle of the frame (throat), but it is a measurement of overall/average stiffness. it doesnt indicate where the frame flexes the most, nor is it a measurement of stiffness in the throat.

 

[David Pavlich]

Why wouldn't racquet companies at least have a Stiff players racquet and a Flexible players racquet? QUOTE]

Its a very good point PurePrestige. wouldnt it be nice if there was a company offering such a thing, along with other choices. In fact, it would be nice if there was a company that was dedicated to providing frames purly for the serious player. Sounds like a business plan I wrote once...

Being in the retail end of the business, I'd make an educated guess and say your business would last until your original captal ran out. 4.5+ players are a tiny minority in the world of tennis. Around here, the majority of players I see are 3.0, 3.5 (the largest category) and 4.0s. A lot of women that couldn't swing a 12 ounce racquet even it they wanted to make up the majority of this group of players.

So, if you do another business plan, you better have a huge financial backer that knows nothing about tennis as a whole.

By the way, while you may not have meant it this way, your remark about "serious player" is a sort of backhanded pronouncment that someone that's a 3.0 can't be a serious tennis player. A 4.5 compared to Andre Agassi is no different than comparing a 4.5 to a 3.0. Does that mean that the 4.5 is not serious?

David

 

[TommyGun]

David,

I don't really know what RD's business plan is, but your train of thought would say that Jay S. and the Boz would have been out of the business decades ago. I don't see too many, maybe NO 3.0's and 3.5's buying customized frames from either of them.

As a retailer, you actually have much more to worry about with the constant change of styles and tech coming from the big guys. I have a really great shop in my area, and she has boxes of discontinued frames that she can't give away. She has a box of Head frames that is less then two years old, all discontinued models, all of which she will be lucky to get her cost out of, if anything at all.

Oh, and only retailers need to worry about the biggest market. Direct sellers do just fine. I know Klipper USA makes a ton on string, and X-45 is doing well as well. Both niche companies, both doing great.

I have a small consulting business in engineering and I am a very small niche of the industry. There are maybe only 1-2% of the companies in the US that might need a service like mine, and almost none in the tri-state area. Interestingly, my consulting business brings me extra margin and I only need about 3% of the 1% to make big money.

Different economics. Since you sell other peoples wares, you already have little control over your margin other then volume investment and your prices are even to a large degree dictated for you before you ever add in your overhead and other costs.

This is actually a facinating part of the business. Wish we could get a thread going about this...

 

[BreakPoint]

wrong breakpoint...as per the usual. the leverage point for the measurement is in the middle of the frame (throat), but it is a measurement of overall/average stiffness. it doesnt indicate where the frame flexes the most, nor is it a measurement of stiffness in the throat.

Thanks for the clarification, NBMJ. Since I have no experience in actually using a RDC machine to take stiffness measurements, I do not know exactly how it's done. So this difference of opinion is really between you and Gaines Hillix, as he said just the exact opposite in his post yesterday here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=42662&highlight=RDC+throat
Since he's a Master Racquet Technician, I had thought perhaps he's done RDC measurements himself as it seems he's speaking from actual experience.

Has anyone else here done RDC measuremnts and cares to comment?

 

[BreakPoint]

I think it's obvious that the business plan that Racketdesign is referring to is the one that he wrote to start Vantage. It's apparent that his business plan was good enough and convincing enough for him to secure the necessary funding to launch Vantage. I'm not sure if he needs to write another business plan. He just needs to execute on his current business plan and show results by hitting previously laid out milestones in order to receive additional funding. This is speaking from someone who used to be a venture capitalist.

 

[NoBadMojo]

i'm happy to discuss this with Gaines, because he is a good guy and will admit when he is wrong, as will i..unlike some others around here. so if you have no experience or knowledge in this matter BP why do you choose to declare me wrong just as you did when i happen to mention the Vantage frames are made in China....i mentioned that frame among others that are made in China and you chose to call me out on that stating they are made in the UK....they are not. parsing bad info to people viewing this board isnt such a good thing to do. you're just a pain in the butt.

 

[BreakPoint]

NBMJ,
I never said you were wrong. Please reread my post above. I said it was contrary to what I've always heard and was requesting clarification since there was apparently conflicting information on this board that we all know and love and take as gospel.

Regarding Vantage and China. All I said was that my Vantage clearly says "Built in the U.K." printed right on the throat. There is not the word "China" anywhere on the racquet, not the butt cap, not the throat, not anywhere. Without having discussed with Paul about where the frames are manufactured, what was I supposed to assume? What would you assume?
Am I now supposed to also suspect that my tennis shoes which say "Made in China' on them might actually be "Built in the U.K."?

BTW, I do regularly admit that I'm wrong when people prove me otherwise. I've written "I stand corrected" on numerous posts.

 

[NoBadMojo]

I dont know what the laws are in England regarding this, but in the States, country of origin must be noted for all products sold here, otherwise that is considered deceptive marketing and these companies can be fined or sued or some sort of action taken against them <to the best of my knowledge>. Note that for example Babblelot decals on their frames 'Engineered in France' <dont hold me to te exact phrase'>but they have the Made in China sticker on there too. Volkls' say 'German Engineering' but they have the made and China sticker...pretty sneaky not to and illegal as well perhaps. So BP better to just not post if you dont know rather than stick me under your microscope looking to bust me on every minute detail..it's gotten very old, and i dont think you're being very successful at it.

 

[BreakPoint]

NBMJ,
I agree. I believe Babolots do say "Engineered in France" on them, and Volkls do say " German Engineering" on them, even though both are made in China and have "China" stickers on the butt cap or somewhere else. I think this is so customers don't think the racquets are engineered in China, which does not yet have a history nor reputation for designing tennis racquets. I remember back in the late '70's when some ProKennex racquets said "Designed in the U.S." even though they were made in Taiwan. I think some Wilson racquets today say "Designed in the U.S." but still have the "China" sticker on the butt cap.

BTW, even the Dunlop M-Fil 200 says "Designed in the U.K." on the throat but has a "China" sticker on the butt cap. I think to most people "Built in the U.K." means it was made in the U.K., wouldn't you agree? You may be right that the laws in the U.K. might be more lenient on this matter.

I mean if you saw a Ford Mustang and it said "Built in Dearborne, Michigan" on the dashboard, wouldn't you assume that the car was "Made in the U.S.A."?

 

[NoBadMojo]

pointless discussion BP, but no, i would not assume what you assumed at all.

 

[BreakPoint]

OK, NBMJ, you're absolutely right! I shouldn't always assume.

Next time someone tells me that a Jaguar that says "Built in the U.K." on it is actually made in the U.K., I'm going to tell them they're clueless and they shouldn't assume.

 

[NoBadMojo]

you may have the last word <again> BP w. your goofy logic, but i suggest to you that a tennis racquet is not the same as a car....if you feel the need to respond to this to have last word <again>, go ahead..like i said, this is a pointless 'conversation' which i dont wish to participate in.

 

[TommyGun]

I believe the marking actually is correct, both here and overseas. I don't have every single law in front of me, but there is a difference between made and built. ALL of the frames from the other companies are completely assembled in China. Therefore in the US it must be marked made in China. The laws here get a little sticky when it comes to other things. Depending on the product, I believe a US manufacturer must say "Made or Assembled in America from Chinese Parts" if it is completely sourced from China but put together here. After that, if the components come from different countries but not one source, and you assemble it here, you can say "Made in America" Since I know the industry, it is not hard for me to assume that some of the Vantage components come from other then China. Again, I'm not familiar with every international law, but since the pieces are all sourced from elsewhere but put together in the UK, the marking is legal and accurate.

Also, for the bigger companies, the product comes into the US straight from China, and no work is done on them here, so they also must say made in China. All the Vantages come from the UK, so again I believe the labeling is correct for the US.

Actually, the car example is a good one. My Toyota Camry is made up of an abundance of off shore parts, but mine is considered made in the USA because it was assembled in Toyota's Kentucky plant.

Same components are used in Japanese plants, but its where its assembled that determines the "made" moniker.

 

[NoBadMojo]

hopefully vantage checked into all of this before launching their productline which is made in china. dont think installing a grip and weighting a frame to spec would be considered manufacturing in this case, nor would stringing....if they formed the racquets from raw materials and did the painting and finishing in the UK, that would be manufacturing certainly. i believe that the place where the bulk of the manufacturing is done to be considered the country of origin which must be designated on the product. having had a career in sales/marketing of consumer products and having done national and international consulting work for new product launches, i believe myself to have some knowledge of this, but i cant say with any certainty what the ruling would be in this case..it certainly should have been researched before product launch. i have no big problem w. 'built in the UK' if the made in China designation is also included, altho i think even 'built in the UK' is a stretch and is misleading. for the record, i think what vantage is trying to do is good for tennis and i am all in favour of something new in the tennis world. perhaps bringing this up will save vantage from a very expensive lawsuit, if they havent already checked into this before launching the product..but i do think masking the country of origin and blatantly promoting a productline on a competitors website isnt so cool. i hope TW hasnt lost a single racquet sale to Vantage by them blatantly promoting their products here. my ,o2

 

[Flatspin]

Wow ........ did some say that tennis is fun?

 

[TommyGun]

NBMJ,

Vantage is not sold here yet. Sold only in the UK. Did some quick research. Order from their website, which is in the UK. So, no problem here. If the product were distributed or sold through a distributor/wholesaler/retailer here, might require an additional label.

Also, more assembly then just weight and a grip is done in the UK (couldn't offer those choices if you had to stock basically even one of each option) so your statement is actually more misleading.

Also, and again, I believe that Jay S and Boz don't have to label any frames they build from frame stock as "made in China" because only the component piece comes from there.

As for TW, like you told me, they can take care of themselves.

 

[TommyGun]

By the way NBMJ, I just went back and looked at all of your posts on this subject, and what I found is that they started somewhat positive, and now have all turned incredibly sour and sometimes mean.

What happened along the way to make this so? Obviously you don't place that much credence in any of our posts based on your comments to date.

 

[NoBadMojo]

'doesnt matter'..the vantage stuff is made in china and vantage is masking this fact because they do modifications to an already manufactured product in the UK..maybe they even have similar labeling laws in the UK (i would hope so). also not buyng your statement that just because Vantage is webbased and has no US distribution, they are exempt from labeling laws, but i could be wrong about this. you wish to sell products in the US? they should comply to labeling laws. that probably is not disputable.

 

[TommyGun]

NBMJ,

Great example is pharma's bought internet based. Exempt from US and FDA labeling, because not SOLD in the US. Point of Sale is the key. A quirk in the law, but still valid.

Nor do I think that Vantage is masking anything. My guess would be that "built" in UK terms is the same as "assembled" here in the states. I just took a quick look at a couple of products I did some consulting on, and they are labeled just "assembled in USA."

I agree that I don't know all of the laws, but I think in this case its neither wrong or misleading. RD never said that they were made from scratch in the UK, nor do my frames say so. Again, its a "Queen's english" thing. Built = Assembled for us. That is not misleading at all.

 

[Steve H.]

I don't think that labeling them "Built in the UK" is misleading, since "built" means the same thing as "assembled." Can't we just assume that Vantage designs and orders a bunch of components from different places: molded frames, grips, grommet sets, weights, etc, and puts them together, "builds" them, according to what each customer wants? There isn't anything shifty about that. We don't expect a "China" sticker on the alternator of our US-made car, even if that's where it comes from.

 

[NoBadMojo]

pharmas are not tennis racquets. cars are not tennis racquets. tennis racquets are tennis racquets. pharmas have different labeling laws and are governed differently than other consumer products. also lots of pharms purchased online arent even legit to begin with and maybe cheap placebos or watered down versions of the real thing. food stuffs also have diff labeling laws. suggest that the term 'assembled in the uk' has a different conotation than 'built in the uk' all i am saying is that i hope vantage did their homework on this because they 'could' be exposing themselves to painful and expensive litigation'. also, i wonder how Brits in an effort to support British factories by buying a built in UK tennis racquet might be disappointed to find out the tennis racquets are actually made in China

 

[TommyGun]

Again, I'll ask, what happened that you started out on this topic a while back positive, or at least just a touch above neutral, and now you are becoming somewhat petty, almost vindictive if I may say so myself.

Steve H.,

I agree. Thanks for being an oasis of sanity.

t-gun

 

[NoBadMojo]

I assume your post TommyGun is addressed to me..actually Breakpoint started this some while ago when he tried to bust me for listing a bunch of frames including Vantage that are made in China,,,,i dont think there are many racquets that arent made in china. he said vantage frames are made in the UK because it is marked 'Built in the UK' and there is no made in China designation anywhere on the frame. it was he being petty. I said the frames are actually made in china. so if the labeling confused breakpoint, i bet it confuses others..i'm not being vindictive in any way..just trying to point out that the vantage frames are made in china..that isnt being petty and is quite obvious that some factory in china which also makes frames for other companies is manufacturing tennis tacquets for vantage. so what they come to the UK without grips and handle pallets.. that does not change where they are manufactured, and that would not hold up well at all in a court of law i dont believe...i'm just being honest, since clearly the frames are NOT made in the UK. so now that you can not counter anything i say with anything reasoned you evidently feel the need to make this into a personal attack thing TommyGun, which it is not, and i dont wish to participate in this any longer. so you too may have last word in this matter...you of course are welcome to deem yourself right in this matter and me wrong. it's fine with me. ed out.

 

[BreakPoint]

Even for a car or other product that is "Assembled in the USA" from foreign and domestic parts, I believe each part is labled with their country of origin. As with the alternator example above, I'd bet that alternator has a "Made in China" stamp somewhere on it. I know on my cars that I've owned, I'll see some parts on there that say "Made in Germany", some say "Made in Japan", and some say "Made in USA", all on the same car that was assembled in one country. I'd bet if you look at any Japanese-brand car (e.g., Honda, Toyota, etc.) that is "Built in the USA", you'll see lots of parts that are labled "Made in Japan".

In the case of Vantage, there is no designation that the frame itself is "Made in China". Only a U.K. flag and "Built in the U.K." next to it on the throat. So yes, without any additional knowledge other than that on the country of manufacture, I was fooled and thought the racquet was made in the U.K., especially since it was shipped to me from the U.K. within 24 hours of my order (not enough time to make and then ship from China to the U.K.). Wouldn't you have been fooled?

Anyway, I have absolutely no problem with the fact that the frame was manufactured in China. It is of very high quality and I know those Chinese factories do a very good job for Vantage and for the other racquet brands. But I have to agree that with only "Built in the U.K." printed on the frame and no mention of China anywhere, that consumers would be confused as to where the frame itself is actually manufactured.

 

[TommyGun]

Is your orange juice 100% florida oranges? Check the side, most likely not. Still doesn't say made in Brazil or wherever the oranges may have come from. Often OJ is "made in USA" but oranges are from X and Y. Also, which is actually where a graphite racquet is made, where the graphite is molded, or where the actual graphite material is manufactured? Its all perspective.

I think that worrying about where the graphite was molded is not even that important (unless, of course, its the Holy Grail from St. Vincent). Name one US string manufacturer who makes any of their string?

This thread should just die here. All Vantage frames, to my knowledge are actually "built" by RD and his company in the UK. Where the hoop comes from, where the pallets come from, where the grommet strips come from are immaterial. Nor is it even a "legal issue or lawsuit material" as others suggest. Its not the country of origin of the components that is important to the Vantage, its the care and technology in assembling the components (in the UK) that actually make the racquets work so well.

I have been accused of being too "enthusiastic" in my review and advocacy of Vantage, even though I have the frames, yet I am beginning to see people here who are too "antagonistic" of a product that is actually very good and done well.

I don't expect anyone here to buy any product because I give it my endorsement here (although if they do I am flattered) nor do I expect people who post and read here to be so naive as to worry about where the carbon portion is molded (unless, again, its a St. Vincent).

The amount of Vantage bashing by one or two posters here is just getting to the point of ridiculous. I said it in another thread, and I'll repeat it here:

"Vantage Sports International makes a great tennis racquet. Period."