Ranking the top 4 grass courters ever
- Thread starter Djokovic_Freak
- Start date
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Oh yeah, pre-open era as well, i suppose.
Djokovic_Freak
New User
This is why I don't rate Federer highly, he had to wait for Nadal to enter his worst period to start beating him even on hard courts and grass courts.
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
Disgusting, for sure, if you're one of those separate the art from the artist folks, then I get your point of view, but then why are such moral standards not held against the organizer of the Adria Tour? Because other folks in Serbia were doing the same? Just because it's legal doesn't make it right, right? I mean we do know deaths in Serbia spiked a month after these events.
RS
Bionic Poster
What about Murray and Roddick?
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
What? Fed is 1-3 vs Djoker who as you said is much younger.
Murray is 2-0 against Djoker. You are new to tennis.
Djokovic_Freak
New User
Federer is older hence he has been able to win more titles on grass. Are you mentally r3tarded?
BGod
G.O.A.T.
It's pretty amazing for me to think about but after 2019 chokejob I now put Sampras ahead of Fed. Yes, yes the extra finals but you can also counter lesser fields and Sampras went 7 in 8 only facing a single 5 set final and control of that 5th set to boot. We're not even touching a 40-15 double MP on serve and he would decimate Nadal (Dustin Brown lol) even on slower grass.
Federer has nothing except the 5 in a row and it's not like Sampras winning 4 and 3 in a row in the 90s isn't impressive in its own right (Fed never strung together more than 1 title after his 5).
A reminder for those who are doubting my assessment, here's Sampras' semi and final opponents:
FINAL
Courier
Ivanisevic
Becker
Pioline
Ivanisevic
Agassi
Rafter
SEMIS
Ivanisevic (L)
Becker
Martin
Ivanisevic
Woodbridge
Henman
Henman
Voltchkov
The bolded green are Wimbledon champs while purple are Hall of Famers, winners of other slams. In addition he lost 2001 R16 to Federer and 1996 QF to eventual champion that year Krajicek. Since we're looking at Federer as the comparison, here's his finals and sf recap:
FINAL
Phillippoussis
Roddick
Roddick
Nadal
Nadal
Nadal
Roddick
Murray
Djokovic
Djokovic
Cilic
Djokovic
SEMIS
Roddick
Grosjean
Hewitt
Bjorkman
Gasquet
Safin
Haas
Djokovic
Raonic
Murray
Raonic (L)
Berdych
Nadal
Additional losses include Kevin Anderson and Tsonga up 2-0 and Berdych as eventual finalist that year. It's comparable, especially the SF list and Federer has a larger scope but I personally don't view the mass amount of Nadal and Djokovic in a stronger sense than Sampras facing Ivanisevic. That's the problem with just looking at titles ignoring all context. Henman is very comparable to Murray in terms of grass court talent for example. I think Goran on fast grass destroys Nadal without question and even on slower grass. Even old man Becker would rank ahead of Murray and Nadal on grass. Djokovic is much harder to guage but I'd still say 2014 and 2019, Sampras wins those even on slow grass.
We're talking about peak ability no?
Federer has nothing except the 5 in a row and it's not like Sampras winning 4 and 3 in a row in the 90s isn't impressive in its own right (Fed never strung together more than 1 title after his 5).
A reminder for those who are doubting my assessment, here's Sampras' semi and final opponents:
FINAL
Courier
Ivanisevic
Becker
Pioline
Ivanisevic
Agassi
Rafter
SEMIS
Ivanisevic (L)
Becker
Martin
Ivanisevic
Woodbridge
Henman
Henman
Voltchkov
The bolded green are Wimbledon champs while purple are Hall of Famers, winners of other slams. In addition he lost 2001 R16 to Federer and 1996 QF to eventual champion that year Krajicek. Since we're looking at Federer as the comparison, here's his finals and sf recap:
FINAL
Phillippoussis
Roddick
Roddick
Nadal
Nadal
Nadal
Roddick
Murray
Djokovic
Djokovic
Cilic
Djokovic
SEMIS
Roddick
Grosjean
Hewitt
Bjorkman
Gasquet
Safin
Haas
Djokovic
Raonic
Murray
Raonic (L)
Berdych
Nadal
Additional losses include Kevin Anderson and Tsonga up 2-0 and Berdych as eventual finalist that year. It's comparable, especially the SF list and Federer has a larger scope but I personally don't view the mass amount of Nadal and Djokovic in a stronger sense than Sampras facing Ivanisevic. That's the problem with just looking at titles ignoring all context. Henman is very comparable to Murray in terms of grass court talent for example. I think Goran on fast grass destroys Nadal without question and even on slower grass. Even old man Becker would rank ahead of Murray and Nadal on grass. Djokovic is much harder to guage but I'd still say 2014 and 2019, Sampras wins those even on slow grass.
We're talking about peak ability no?
ForehandRF
Legend
He is just another Djokovic fanatic and troll.
swordtennis
G.O.A.T.
Nothing wrong with that. Many have held that 3-0 in finals against Federer.
I personally have Fed #2 all time. He has 8 titles so IMO you have to put him in the top 3 at least.
Right now I have Djokovic at #4 behind Borg.
I personally have Fed #2 all time. He has 8 titles so IMO you have to put him in the top 3 at least.
Right now I have Djokovic at #4 behind Borg.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
His competition on grass was much better than Djokers. You are brand new to tennis and don't have any idea what you are talking about if you say Fed is not top 5 on grass.
But if you want to play the h2h game then Murray is better than Djoker on grass. Clear cut.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Careful now, thats basically a bannable offense.
Djokovic_Freak
New User
Mate Federer was playing Hewitt in Wimbledon semifinals how is that difficult competition? Hewitt is a megadonk on grass who managed to beat a pre fatbandian in his first grass tournament. Djokovic had Nadal and Federer, as well as Murray.
Djokovic_Freak
New User
No it's not. A bannable offense should be not understanding Federer being older clearly has an advantage over the field when talking about grass titles amassed. He has had more years of being able to win things. Also played Halle where a lot of the players didn't play.
Djokovic should just play all the tournaments Federer plays to stop him winning a title again.
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
I dread to think of the damage he would have done if his peak was inside top 10.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
You mean the guys that Fed dominated on grass?
Djoker played Anderson in a final and could barely tie an old man at WC and got outplayed.
ForehandRF
Legend
Spare me with your offenses you troll and shut a hell up.
alexio
G.O.A.T.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
It is enough in this epoch of ours.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Lol u better slay
Djokovic_Freak
New User
Federer nearly got taken to 5 sets against Nadal at Wimbledon 06
What is your point?
Djokovic_Freak
New User
It wasn't an offense, more of an observation.
swordtennis
G.O.A.T.
The thing with Nadal in 2008 is He had the perfect opponent for him.
He was fast taking it from Fed.
Read Feds interview after W 2007 win.
We tend to forget Nadal was the Fed killer back then.
He and Uncle Toni built his game to beat Fed.
Fed's BH was more vulnerable to consistent pounding.
He really worked on his BH and it was much more resilient later in his career. Sublime actually.
He was fast taking it from Fed.
Read Feds interview after W 2007 win.
We tend to forget Nadal was the Fed killer back then.
He and Uncle Toni built his game to beat Fed.
Fed's BH was more vulnerable to consistent pounding.
He really worked on his BH and it was much more resilient later in his career. Sublime actually.
D
Deleted member 748597
Guest
Welcome to the forum, fellow Djokovic fan.
D
Deleted member 748597
Guest
He's gone already. The guy was fun. Oh well.
RS
Bionic Poster
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
D
Deleted member 744633
Guest
Well Sword & @Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil ... @Sunny014 just told me in another thread that Federer is Djokovic's daddy on grass. I find it really difficult to wrap my head around how people come to such conclusions when established facts suggest the complete opposite. Even eliminating all the finals Federer lost to Djokovic only gives him a 1-0 lead over Djokovic at Wimbledon
In my opinion Djokovic would be a contender on any type of grass, slow or fast. He'll likely come up short against a peak Sampras over the course of multiple matches but if a one-slam wonder such as Krajicek could pull out the odd win against Sampras, why not Djokovic?
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
This
Fed deserves respect for his titles but for peak level Djokovic clearly ahead on modern grass.
Beckerserve
Legend
Becker should be there surely?Obviously these 4 guys are the best grasscourters ever, but who do you think is the best; Feel free to also include your 1-5 out of the bunch as well as vote for the best
I think it's Borg, closely followed by Sampras, but Djokovic could still surpass both. 4th spot I would say Laver.
Also, who do you think demonstrated the highest level of play in a single match? I would say krajicek against Sampras. I would pick Federer for his 03 SF, but Roddick was serving at 50% and no one ever talks about how atrocious he played that day.
P
PETEhammer
Guest
1. Pietros (7-0 against an era of grasscourters and a grass ATG in the mix, 'nuff said)
2. Borg (5 in a row on a surface so opposed to his playing style places him here permanently for me)
3.Nolan (5 versus FedX3, RafaX1 and Anderson, impressive as hell and could move up to tie Bjorn)
4. Laver (The original "Da Man")
2. Borg (5 in a row on a surface so opposed to his playing style places him here permanently for me)
3.Nolan (5 versus FedX3, RafaX1 and Anderson, impressive as hell and could move up to tie Bjorn)
4. Laver (The original "Da Man")
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
No love for Boris or Stefan? How could you place Krajicek (who won a single Wimbledon) over multiple Wimbledon winners? How about Jimbo, he won 2 as well.
Sunny014
Legend
Well Sword & @Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil ... @Sunny014 just told me in another thread that Federer is Djokovic's daddy on grass. I find it really difficult to wrap my head around how people come to such conclusions when established facts suggest the complete opposite. Even eliminating all the finals Federer lost to Djokovic only gives him a 1-0 lead over Djokovic at Wimbledon
In my opinion Djokovic would be a contender on any type of grass, slow or fast. He'll likely come up short against a peak Sampras over the course of multiple matches but if a one-slam wonder such as Krajicek could pull out the odd win against Sampras, why not Djokovic?
hhahahahaahahhaha
You think Sampras with a weaker backhand and less stamina can make Djokovic struggle while you believe Djokovic at his best can trouble Federer at his best ?
You are just a sour Federer hater @Sunny Ali who pretends to be a Sampras-Djokovic fan.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Borg was a legend on grass, but Federer and Sampras have to rank above him. Maybe even Djokovic, although that's more of a debate.Obviously these 4 guys are the best grasscourters ever, but who do you think is the best; Feel free to also include your 1-5 out of the bunch as well as vote for the best
I think it's Borg, closely followed by Sampras, but Djokovic could still surpass both. 4th spot I would say Laver.
Also, who do you think demonstrated the highest level of play in a single match? I would say krajicek against Sampras. I would pick Federer for his 03 SF, but Roddick was serving at 50% and no one ever talks about how atrocious he played that day.
As for highest level, it's gotta be Krajicek. The man was raining down serves from out of orbit. Although Pete himself played at a ridiculously high level against Agassi in the 1999 final.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Trust me, you can get banned for much less offensive words
I had Boris and Stefan equal 4th. Anyone who saw the 88, 89 and 90 finals knows they can't be separated.
Sunny014
Legend
Ranking the top 4 grass courters ever after Federer
OP missed this crucial bit of information
Anyway, the top 5 ever are
Federer
Sampras
Borg
Becker
Djokovic/Mcenroe
Novak is at best 5 or lower, milking wins in close 5 sets over a guy 33+ nd 6 years older to you, losing to Murray, losing to Querrey during your peak, needing Becker to improve your game via coaching is all a sign of a person who is not a natural on grass and unworthy of being in the top 3-4 players.
In other eras he might not a get chance to improve his game after age 27 and that clutch will also be of no use because matches would never be close, he would be facing outright loss to Federer or Sampras or Borg in 3-4 sets if aged same as them and on a faster court, so clutch is nowhere in picture here!
OP missed this crucial bit of information
Anyway, the top 5 ever are
Federer
Sampras
Borg
Becker
Djokovic/Mcenroe
Novak is at best 5 or lower, milking wins in close 5 sets over a guy 33+ nd 6 years older to you, losing to Murray, losing to Querrey during your peak, needing Becker to improve your game via coaching is all a sign of a person who is not a natural on grass and unworthy of being in the top 3-4 players.
In other eras he might not a get chance to improve his game after age 27 and that clutch will also be of no use because matches would never be close, he would be facing outright loss to Federer or Sampras or Borg in 3-4 sets if aged same as them and on a faster court, so clutch is nowhere in picture here!
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
OP got banned lol
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
In OP's defense, I haven't watched too many full Laver matches either, mostly because they're so hard to come by. Ditto for Rosewall. But I think I know their stats well enough to confidently say both of them are GOAT contenders.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
Wow, so fast! Might be double-accounting. Another ban might be coming soon...
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
TTW speedrun new record
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
Exactly. But you don't make threads like this talking about who the best grasscourt player is. Rankings are pretty useless when comparing across 60 years of a sport.
And the OP is clearly basing his rankings on an "eye test", because if he/she wasn't Federer would have been first or second. And there can be no "eye test" if he/she hasn't seen Laver play, and then the whole premise of the thread isn't logically consistent.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm actually wondering how quickly you could potentially get banned. Someone could try to do a speedrun.
Step 1: Create account "90s Clay" (without the apostrophe to be "different")
Step 1b: Do this during American daytime as TT is an American website; mods will be slower at night
Step 2: Say you're a former banned user
Step 3: Spam NSFW content
Laver was a relentless attacker, but also great defender. I heard John Newcombe once say the problem with most players was sticking with a plan to beat them, with Laver there just didn't seem to be a way unless he was off his game.
Laver once beat my father, playing right handed
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
No joke, they had a hit?Laver was a relentless attacker, but also great defender. I heard John Newcombe once say the problem with most players was sticking with a plan to beat them, with Laver there just didn't seem to be a way unless he was off his game.
Laver once beat my father, playing right handed
