relationship of Flip and lag?

[ByeByePoly]

I'm not saying Pros don't get big shoulder turn or they don't have the shld/hip separation because they often do. What I'm saying is that pros hit big power off many different incoming balls and they will vary the turn to suit their intent and the type of ball they receive. Shoulders and hips are more an issue of amplitude and need to be seen as a variable, not a given. Constant focus on the shoulder turn can tend to lead to snatching the racket from the slot, which will spoil the swing. Imo the key is to focus on proper racket accel technique. The real unit turn is coming out of the slot imo. The hips are driving the shoulders, arm and hand as a unit, dragging the racket to find alignment towards contact. Once great alignment and timing is assured as the hand nears the ball, then the hand starts to tighten the arc, leaving the unit and moving strongly across the body midline instead of continuing in the shoulder plane. This move coincides with the big accel we see right before contact and is the major key to consistent big shots.

Yes this is an outlying exaggeration to make a point, but here we can see with a faster incoming ball, Blake hits a screaming big Fh with limited hip and shoulder turn. I realize this isn't typical, but it still illustrates my point at the extreme edge. He adjust his coil amount to suit the incoming speed of the ball. This is part of why we see most players struggle against big serves...because they feel they need big shoulder turn. Imo, if players learn to modulate or adjust shoulder turn routinely based on the situation, then the adjustments for serves and receiving big Fhs will be much more intuitive and natural. The constant focus a big oversized turn is Imo quite unnecessary and will happen naturally or with mild input if this is taught properly from the start.

"I haven't seen a pro hitting big pace FHs on neutral balls"

There are so many variables in tennis, it's hard to generalized technique. But what I mean by "neutral" above is "neutral baseline shot where you have to generate your own pace". Not talking about serve return, and not talking about concessions one makes at the baseline when rushed. Also... I would agree there are variations of pro shots from the baseline, and perhaps even on "neutral" balls where the shoulder turn is varied. But in general, IMO ... if a pro is trying to hit pace off a neutral ball, they will have full shoulder turn past the hip in the backswing (before the slot).

You will have to explain more what you mean by "snatching the racquet from the slot". I just see the shoulder turn prior to butt cap forward is required prep on neutral balls. Some of this might be stance related. I mostly look at video of Fed (and others) hitting off baseline FHs off the back leg in semi open stance. I haven't paid to much attention to i/o FHs from his backhand corner, but there is definitely different stance dynamics going on from those shots (load bearing on left leg/foot).

 

[TennisCJC]

One article claims, "The so called lag (is) happening as a consequence (of) the flip" and oddly the same article claims "The idea that players consciously create "lag" is an illusion".

Isn't this an odd pair of comments for one article? If the lag can be a consequence of the lag as depicted in the article, then can't a player consciously use the Flip to get the lag? Wouldn't that be consciously creating the lag? Or is the article also claiming that a player also can't consciously do the Flip?

Is lag really that hard to create? We know some players will have lots of lag, some will have less like with traditional takebacks and some players have almost no lag, but don't you think players with very little lag can consciously improve it?

I bet if you asked Federer how he "lags" on his FH, he would look at you with a blank stare and wouldn't have a clue what you are talking about. He does it but I bet he doesn't think about it and I would lean toward thinking that "lag" was not taught to him. Do you think Federer had coaches as a junior that taught "lag"? I bet they taught loose grip, compact stroke, racket closed during take back and using the core. Most intermediate + players lag naturally. I have seen some beginners that do not lay the wrist back and they hit with an awkward angle between forearm and racket but this is very rare. It looks like an awkward push style FH. It would be OK to teach those students to lay the wrist back or you could phrase it as let the racket head lag the forward movement of the core and arm if you want.

 

[5263]

I bet if you asked Federer how he "lags" on his FH, he would look at you with a blank stare and wouldn't have a clue what you are talking about. He does it but I bet he doesn't think about it and I would lean toward thinking that "lag" was not taught to him. Do you think Federer had coaches as a junior that taught "lag"? I bet they taught loose grip, compact stroke, racket closed during take back and using the core. Most intermediate + players lag naturally. I have seen some beginners that do not lay the wrist back and they hit with an awkward angle between forearm and racket but this is very rare. It looks like an awkward push style FH. It would be OK to teach those students to lay the wrist back or you could phrase it as let the racket head lag the forward movement of the core and arm if you want.

I'm not really sure what asking Fed would have to do with this. This isn't for Fed or anyone who got his level of coaching since childhood. Everybody lags to some extent, but some tend to resist it. The tips and coaching are to show them they don't need to resist it and how to let it happen and how to use it. I can't recall anyone teaching to stress the wrist back in some strange or awkward way. Sure, some who are trying to learn this skill will be awkward at first and some won't ever get it no matter what....but that is just how it goes and doesn't mean the tip or check point shouldn't be shared, because many WILL get it and improve.

Isn't it clear that you CAN teach the lag to a player who doesn't use it or use it well?

 

[5263]

Not talking about serve return, and not talking about concessions one makes at the baseline when rushed. Also... I would agree there are variations of pro shots from the baseline, and perhaps even on "neutral" balls where the shoulder turn is varied. But in general, IMO ... if a pro is trying to hit pace off a neutral ball, they will have full shoulder turn past the hip in the backswing (before the slot).

You will have to explain more what you mean by "snatching the racquet from the slot"..

I think I was pretty clear that I wasn't addressing your "neutral ball" for a reason. Good tennis is about making adjustment and realizing that you have to have a Fh that adapts to receiving all types of balls....not just your neutral ball example. Sure, on a weak to neutral rally ball you will generally see more shoulder turn and I agreed with that earlier if you will look back or remember....but I'm making the point that there is no reason to have all this major focus on big shoulder turn as some coaches stress. This is one of the most natural adjustments for a player once they get sort of good with execution. Funny how so many are coming in talking about the flip and lag having to be natural, but don't see how natural it is to increase loading coil to hit a bigger Fh. If someone isn't doing this, then mostly it will be due to a lack of consistent execution that hurts their confidence to take a bigger swing. This is waaaaay more natural than the swivel OR the strong lag.

As to the hip to shoulder separation....that is mostly on all Fhs regardless of the extent of the shoulder turn. So it isn't really part of this discussion. That is just a standard part of the coil when you use one of the many open stance variations. The only time you might not see much of this is in the closed stances where it isn't as natural in the coil.

Snatching the racket from the slot is so common from rec players and even jrs trying to hit hard. They hear how all important RHS is and try to start getting it right away to get as much as they can. When you do this, racket alignment suffers and you can't tighten the arc of the swing for the proper accel. Early snatch accel makes it harder to arc tighter and time the moment...spoiling the execution.

 

[ByeByePoly]

1. I think I was pretty clear that I wasn't addressing your "neutral ball" for a reason. Good tennis is about making adjustment and realizing that you have to have a Fh that adapts to receiving all types of balls....not just your neutral ball example. Sure, on a weak to neutral rally ball you will generally see more shoulder turn and I agreed with that earlier if you will look back or remember....but I'm making the point that there is no reason to have all this major focus on big shoulder turn as some coaches stress. This is one of the most natural adjustments for a player once they get sort of good with execution. Funny how so many are coming in talking about the flip and lag having to be natural, but don't see how natural it is to increase loading coil to hit a bigger Fh. If someone isn't doing this, then mostly it will be due to a lack of consistent execution that hurts their confidence to take a bigger swing. This is waaaaay more natural than the swivel OR the strong lag.

As to the hip to shoulder separation....that is mostly on all Fhs regardless of the extent of the shoulder turn. So it isn't really part of this discussion. That is just a standard part of the coil when you use one of the many open stance variations. The only time you might not see much of this is in the closed stances where it isn't as natural in the coil.

Snatching the racket from the slot is so common from rec players and even jrs trying to hit hard. They hear how all important RHS is and try to start getting it right away to get as much as they can. When you do this, racket alignment suffers and you can't tighten the arc of the swing for the proper accel. Early snatch accel makes it harder to arc tighter and time the moment...spoiling the execution.

Oh ... you were talking about accelerating to early in the swivel. I guess the point is proper timing of the LATE release of forearm/racquet angle and isr/pronation. Agree ... that's why all my golf analogies.

You teach, and I do not, but we will just have to disagree on focusing on the shoulder turn teaching beginners. It would be #1 for me on both FH and BH. I would teach the beginner to hit neutral semi open FHs, and neutral stance 2hbh (closed 1hbh) all with full shoulder turn past hips in the prep. IMO ... you learn to adapt from there on shots you are rushed, return of serve, ect.

I would teach the beginner full shoulder turns, and not the swivel. It's ok to disagree.

 

[5263]

I would teach the beginner full shoulder turns, and not the swivel. It's ok to disagree.

So how would one be teaching the coil of shoulder turn from neutral or closed?

 

[ByeByePoly]

So how one be teaching the coil of shoulder turn from neutral or closed?

My beginners would be hitting semi open. Their initial muscle memory aide would be stance plus chest toward right fence. When I explained shoulder turn past hip line, I would explain it from a semi open stance, and then from a neutral stance. If your chest is pointing to the right fence with a semi open stance, you have great shoulder turn. If you are in a neutral stance with chest pointing to right fence, you have no shoulder turn (or else you are a left handed player with freakshow flexibility ).

i don't hit neutral or closed stance FHs from neutral rally balls (who knows when I'm on the run). When I take a shadow swing from a neutral stance ... with full hip + shoulder turn, I end up facing backwards and can't see the ball coming (if there was one ... shadow swings). How do you teach those? Maybe that is a case that @SystemicAnomaly was talking about ... hips go first and create the hip/shoulder separation.

Can't remember if you posted in Curious's thread "eliminate hips". I posted this Fed FH ... he definitely did not start with his hip on this FH, and it wasn't just a warmup stoke.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...e-hip-on-forehand.586342/page-2#post-11612430

 

[Curiosity]

I bet if you asked Federer how he "lags" on his FH, he would look at you with a blank stare and wouldn't have a clue what you are talking about. He does it but I bet he doesn't think about it and I would lean toward thinking that "lag" was not taught to him. Do you think Federer had coaches as a junior that taught "lag"? I bet they taught loose grip, compact stroke, racket closed during take back and using the core. Most intermediate + players lag naturally. I have seen some beginners that do not lay the wrist back and they hit with an awkward angle between forearm and racket but this is very rare. It looks like an awkward push style FH. It would be OK to teach those students to lay the wrist back or you could phrase it as let the racket head lag the forward movement of the core and arm if you want.

I find it astounding when people assume Fed might have been undercoached as a junior, left unaware of the various details that go into a powerful accurate stroke. For god's sake, he had a world-class coach living with his family for four or five years.

All the talk about lag seems to skip the reason for it, for "leaving the racquet behind" hanging from a loose wrist. If you don't achieve that, if you have a firm wrist and begin to swing the racquet immediatatly with a firm wrist, your chances of causing deceleration or wobble (accidental racquet orientation change due to flexed muscles twitching) is enormous.

It is just a happy accident that setting the racquet to press back on a loose wrist works extremely well with the ESR-then-ISR sequence.

 

[Hansen]

I find it astounding when people assume Fed might have been undercoached as a junior, left unaware of the various details that go into a powerful accurate stroke.

i agree that it is hard to imagine that the top pros have been undercoached, but i believe sometimes a certain great forehand, backhand etc. emerged by accident. otherwise there wouldn´t be that much technical flaws on the pro tour: nishikori´s serve, raonic´s backhand, paire´s forehand, gulbis´ forehand etc.

 

[Curiosity]

i agree that it is hard to imagine that the top pros have been undercoached, but i believe sometimes a certain great forehand, backhand etc. emerged by accident. otherwise there wouldn´t be that much technical flaws on the pro tour: nishikori´s serve, raonic´s backhand, paire´s forehand, gulbis´ forehand etc.

I was only referring to Fed. Very few pros had the upbringing he did. As for the rest, I would guess they all know what it means to put the racquet in lag, whatever language they learned it in. The sequence of accelerations and momentum transfers is as basic as it gets, no?

 

[donquijote]

The Racquet Illusion And How It Distracts and Deceives Us

http://www.feeltennis.net/roger-federer-forehand-technique/

 

[5263]

I was only referring to Fed. Very few pros had the upbringing he did. As for the rest, I would guess they all know what it means to put the racquet in lag, whatever language they learned it in. The sequence of accelerations and momentum transfers is as basic as it gets, no?

Imo, one of the advantages of starting tennis young is that kids are so weak that they MUST lag when they swing hard. Once they are good as a young player, at a minimum they have developed the feel to lag is how good Fhs are hit.

 

[onehandbh]

Constant focus on the shoulder turn can tend to lead to snatching the racket from the slot, which will spoil the swing.

Can you explain what you mean by "snatching the racquet from the slot" spoiling the swing? I don't quite understand.

 

[5263]

Can you explain what you mean by "snatching the racquet from the slot" spoiling the swing? I don't quite understand.

To snatch from the slot means to try to gain too much accel too early in the stroke. It is sort of like popping the clutch on your motorcycle leading to an unintended wheelie or skidding out of alignment, spoiling your start. Coming out of the hole/slot should expeditious of course, but smooth, controlled, and aligned.

 

[Curiosity]

Imo, one of the advantages of starting tennis young is that kids are so weak that they MUST lag when they swing hard. Once they are good as a young player, at a minimum they have developed the feel to lag is how good Fhs are hit.

Agree with that notion. Kids aren't strong enough to ruin hits by muscling the racquet, usually.

 

[onehandbh]

To snatch from the slot means to try to gain too much accel too early in the stroke. It is sort of like popping the clutch on your motorcycle leading to an unintended wheelie or skidding out of alignment, spoiling your start. Coming out of the hole/slot should expeditious of course, but smooth, controlled, and aligned.

Ah, ok.

I think if you initiate the swing from the ground up and keep your arm more relaxed, you'll be less likely to "snatch from the slot."

 

[zalive]

One article claims, "The so called lag (is) happening as a consequence (of) the flip"

Please explanation, what is considered a flip?

 

[TennisCJC]

I find it astounding when people assume Fed might have been undercoached as a junior, left unaware of the various details that go into a powerful accurate stroke. For god's sake, he had a world-class coach living with his family for four or five years.

All the talk about lag seems to skip the reason for it, for "leaving the racquet behind" hanging from a loose wrist. If you don't achieve that, if you have a firm wrist and begin to swing the racquet immediatatly with a firm wrist, your chances of causing deceleration or wobble (accidental racquet orientation change due to flexed muscles twitching) is enormous.

It is just a happy accident that setting the racquet to press back on a loose wrist works extremely well with the ESR-then-ISR sequence.

I saw a video of Federer giving a lesson. He dropped the ball and hit a FH and said "hit it like that". Yes, I know top pros are coached but I think their strokes are ingrained from years of practice. It is like breathing to them. They don't think inhale the air, hold it in, and exhale now. It is part of their being.

 

[Curiosity]

I saw a video of Federer giving a lesson. He dropped the ball and hit a FH and said "hit it like that". Yes, I know top pros are coached but I think their strokes are ingrained from years of practice. It is like breathing to them. They don't think inhale the air, hold it in, and exhale now. It is part of their being.

On one hand, I would agree and say "of course." However, the question is not whether the pros, Fed in particular, walk around day to day, match to match, thinking of fundamental technique. The question is "did they ever become aware of, and work on, the fundamentals consciously" before the time came when the fundamentals were fairly automatic. Once things are grooved for years it's more a matter of coaches driving tactics, and pointing out if the player has fallen into a bad habit in their extent of turn-back or their timing. So it seems to me.

And above all, I would ask "why on earth would Fed launch into a detailed description of stroke mechanics when he isn't going to be around the player for more than a few minutes?" What he says (or any other pro says) when giving a one-up bit of instruction....provides no measure of what he would cover if he was coaching the student for six months off and on at an acadamy.

 

[zalive]

Please explanation, what is considered a flip?

Anyone? Just trying to understand what this term refers to...

 

[FiReFTW]

On one hand, I would agree and say "of course." However, the question is not whether the pros, Fed in particular, walk around day to day, match to match, thinking of fundamental technique. The question is "did they ever become aware of, and work on, the fundamentals consciously" before the time came when the fundamentals were fairly automatic. Once things are grooved for years it's more a matter of coaches driving tactics, and pointing out if the player has fallen into a bad habit in their extent of turn-back or their timing. So it seems to me.

And above all, I would ask "why on earth would Fed launch into a detailed description of stroke mechanics when he isn't going to be around the player for more than a few minutes?" What he says (or any other pro says) when giving a one-up bit of instruction....provides no measure of what he would cover if he was coaching the student for six months off and on at an acadamy.

I trained a few sports in the past, not professionaly never really went so far because of lack of time, and from my experience nobody teaches you biomechanics and explains how some muscle or ligament or whatever must move or turn or whatever to get better.
Either:
1.You try many different things as you practice and from trial and error see what type of motion is more effective and how different motions have different end results
2.Your coaches give u drills or explain to try to do it more like this or like that and see how it goes, but they don't explain the detailed biomechanics of why this is like that, the player simply listens to the coach and tries it and drills it like that.

I mean even using some common sense, do you really think a coach or anyone is going to go into detailed explanation with some player of why he needs to do this and how x muscle and x ligament and x thing if it moves or stretches or turns like this and that it provides more speed and x and whatever? Whats even the point of that? You explain to the player how to change some stroke, do more this or lift the arm more up or whatever and then drill and practice it and see if it improves the stroke.